Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Monday 12 December 2005 19:36:26 Adam Gołębiowski wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:14AM +0300, Denis Ovsienko wrote: That would probably require some hacking. You could try to install Th from scratch into a chroot on another partition and than try to boot from it. It should be more secure than installing from scratch. Is there any documentation on installing 3.0 from scratch? You can install it from Ac using poldek: # poldek --root /chrootth -n th_source. All you have to remember is to rebuild rpm database afterwards - erase everything but Packages from /var/lib/rpm and do rpm --rebuilddb. removing only /var/lib/rpm/__db* is sufficent. and yes, i replied to email older than a year ;) -- glen ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala napisał(a): On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 18:14:48 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: boost from concurrency since most programs/daemons don't depend on each other and don't need to wait for others to start first. If they don't depend, why do we have priorities in current init scripts? If we abandon priorities, we must introduce dependencies. We have because some of them depend on others. OTOH Samba, Squid, Apache and DHCPd rarely depend on each other. ;] ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 13:54:01 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: We have because some of them depend on others. OTOH Samba, Squid, Apache and DHCPd rarely depend on each other. ;] So we can give them the same priority and introduce feature from patrys' blog: run everything with the same prio parallel. It MUCH more easier transition as we only need some piece of forking code. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala napisał(a): On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 13:54:01 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: We have because some of them depend on others. OTOH Samba, Squid, Apache and DHCPd rarely depend on each other. ;] So we can give them the same priority and introduce feature from patrys' blog: run everything with the same prio parallel. It MUCH more easier transition as we only need some piece of forking code. But he also proposed automatic generation of priorities (to relieve the pain of guessing the proper magic numbers from developers). Configurable daemon supervising is IMHO a good thing on its own. We could probably also look at Apple's launchd for a (according to what I've heard) completely new look at running all kinds of processes (it includes some kind of cron and init replacement). ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Take a look at amavisd-new config file - it's de facto a piece of perl code you must rewrite. Have you got any idea how to automate process of upgrading it? It takes me about an hour. No, you don't need to rewrite it with each upgrade. I'm using amavisd-new for +/- two years and I had to do only _one_ rewrite (it was my fault, I've just deleted wrong file :)). It still works as it should with ~2 year old config. Of course minor changes were required but those usually take ~15 minutes. M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 18:40:24 +0100, Tomasz Grobelny wrote: Why don't you guys try to write down _requirements_ ie. list of properties that the new system must have before introducing it to PLD? Because some people tried to convince me, that it is done and we must only adapt some scripting to PLD. So if it exists I wanted to know how it works. It turned out that there's noone here who knows anything more than 'parallel' and 'dependencies'. So how do you people want to put it in into PLD, when you don't have any idea how to maintain the system? Once more: the idea is to write down WHAT IS NEEDED and then think if it's doable. Or maybe just someone interested will check initNG or other really existing projects? ; -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:32:06 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Because some people tried to convince me, that it is done and we must only adapt some scripting to PLD. So if it exists I wanted to know how it works. It turned out that there's noone here who knows anything more than 'parallel' and 'dependencies'. How long will You keep insulting me? Where have I stated, that there already is a list of requirements? Stop fucking trolling and putting down something, which You aren't even interested in - would Ya? What is it that You know about it, which makes You accuse ppl of not knowing of? You haven't even bothered to look into specs that are already made and still You keep on jumping to conclusions and giving facts about things, You haven't even seen? Or maybe just someone interested will check initNG or other really existing projects? ; Or maby You just shut up and stop criticising things You haven't even bothered to check up would Ya? -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 03:01:01PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dnia Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:32:06 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED]
napisał:
Because some people tried to convince me, that it is done and we must
only adapt some scripting to PLD. So if it exists I wanted to know how
it works. It turned out that there's noone here who knows anything more
than 'parallel' and 'dependencies'.
How long will You keep insulting me? Where have I stated, that there
already is a list of requirements? Stop fucking trolling and putting down
something, which You aren't even interested in - would Ya? What is it that
You know about it, which makes You accuse ppl of not knowing of? You
haven't even bothered to look into specs that are already made and still
You keep on jumping to conclusions and giving facts about things, You
haven't even seen?
Ok, thank you, with this mail you just found a nice place in my
.procmailrc called /dev/drzewo. Too long of YOUR trolling on this list you
allmighty, smart aleck.
Or maybe just someone interested will check initNG or other really
existing projects? ;
Or maby You just shut up and stop criticising things You haven't even
bothered to check up would Ya?
would Ya Where do people take from such a language? Slams?
--
RegardsHavner {jid,mail}:havner(at)pld-linux.org
PLD developerhttp://www.pld-linux.org
PLD LiveCD author http://livecd.pld-linux.org
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
___
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Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 19:18 +0100, Andrzej Krzysztofowicz wrote: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyY2luIEtyw7Ns?= wrote: I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now But if you leave one machine not upgraded, after some time it may become not upgradeable. Because of missing triggers, package splits, missing obsoletes, etc. Perhaps it is time to start tracking those, and recording an upgrade path. lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. What for machines that are not upgradeable N - N+1? Eg. because of their configuration and bugs present in year N+1 release. Will rel. N+2 support N - N+2 upgrade ? Eg. some X11 version (or any other commonly used library) is unusable for them, suggested solution is to use previous version with bugfixes? I think part of the problem is that we would need to keep old package sets on FTP: A sort of mini-release with every batch of moves from ready to main. If the distro tree is laid out for that, I can see it working very well. Poldek 0.20's config files leave good infrastructure for rolling out new repo locations via updates, too. 2) Maintain distro itself. Now if there is some security bug it should be fixed in Ra, Ac, Th. With always in developement we'll prepare/commit/test/build fixed packages only once. Yes, leaving the work for machine admins is simpler. Hehe. Aria ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 15:05 +0100, Jakub Bogusz wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:45:22PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: It's ok as long, as we make ISO-s from time to time. That is the part of always in developement idea. I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. But think about big transitions, such as gcc - when most of C++/Fortran/Ada/GCJ-based Java stuff must be rebuilt. And many programs appear broken, so they wouldn't exist in distro even for few months. gcc 4.0 isn't so new now (about 8 months from 4.0.0 release has passed), but many programs still need fixes, sometimes non-trivial. How possible are parallel installs? Could one not have both installed, if packaged properly, and migrate as packages become fixed, eventually having a system without GCC 3? Perhaps it would be smart to define package sets: AC + Gnome 2.12 + GCC 3 upgrade to AC + Gnome 2.14 + GCC 3 install to AC + Gnome 2.14 + GCC 3 + GCC 4 clean to AC + Gnome 2.14 + GCC 4 Each move like a mini distro upgrade, but without the long pain and massive changes, each isolated into the package set. Like always in development, but with tested groups of releases, not continuous updates. Some continuous updates could happen within the framework, if each module is a poldek repo with an updates repo attached, too. Find sets of packages that mutually require upgrade -- like dist-upgrade finds when installing -- and label them as distro addons (I don't like the word) -- and you can upgrade entire subsets, without needing to upgrade a whole distro. Building this would require a few more tools, to check interdependencies between repos. I don't think they would be hard to build. I think the net win could be very big: stability, upgrade paths, rapid development, short release cycle. I have a friend who would like to not bother with many updates until a new GNOME, then travel to where they have broadband and update. If he could just enable a new repo and dist-upgrade, he'd be set very quickly. Conceptually simple, manageable. For updates at home on dial-up internet, he could just keep (security?)update repos for the groups of packages enabled, and only do actual major updates when he has broadband. Aria ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 16:07 +0100, Jakub Bogusz wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 03:54:20PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:52:49 +0100, Adam Gołębiowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:45:22PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. All of that is true - as long as from time to time we'll bake some iso, everything is fine for me. What about some groundbraking change like gcc update (breaking BC)? That'd be a point to make an iso - perfect for making some 'version', 'release', 'snapshot' or whatever You call it - an iso. And what can I do with ISO full of security holes (or other serious bugs), with only binary-incompatible updates on ftp? always in development works good only for periods of time limited by big transitions. Maybe medium transitions with less time between could be possible? C++ ABI breakage is the biggest I can think of. Otherwise, major transitions are relatively small. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 16:14:34 -0700, Aredridel wrote: Have you seen a distro that supports full machine upgrade (incl. configuration fixes/rewrites) in less than one night ? Let's be the first. Take a look at amavisd-new config file - it's de facto a piece of perl code you must rewrite. Have you got any idea how to automate process of upgrading it? It takes me about an hour. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 01:09:11 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: You could give it a try: bootchart.org Nice, but I don't have a place to run it;/ -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 18:14:48 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: boost from concurrency since most programs/daemons don't depend on each other and don't need to wait for others to start first. If they don't depend, why do we have priorities in current init scripts? If we abandon priorities, we must introduce dependencies. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 16:53:13 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that, because it doesn't work yet and that's why the whole idea is wrong No, I'm not saying. I'm STILL asking some 'HOW' questions and don't get answers. to start with. There are possibilites which we could utilize and give me a good reason, good retorical reason, why shouldn't we use that. So - what I'll repeat one more time, slowly: b e c a u s e n o o n e c a n t e l l m e H O W t o s t a r t n e t w o r k s e r v i c e s . wan't work when we're done scripting, what is impossible because of the nature/architecture of initng and so on. So far You've just claimed the How do you want to script, when you don't know WHAT is to be written? obvoius - it isn't ready and productional yet, but the question is, should It's not even ready for testing, because apparently there's no fundamentals (or any person here who knows something more than 'parallel'). Nothing. I'm just against gentooism like `it's two times faster'. Do I look to You like a Gentoo user? Yes. You believe that something you don't know is better, because you've read it somewhere. I've just written down my personal experience with only slightly tweaked initng with PLD and the result is as follows - boot time, including *all* services and daemons, speed up dramatically, probably more than 2 times! I don't care about your system. I'm worried about MINE and you can't tell me how to configure it to work. If it is better, answer one of my question: how would you start bind in relation with quagga? I don't know what quogga is, Sad... but I don't see any service would be unrunable in the new initng. Without any non-zero interface-interval bind will run, work, but won't listen on zebra set-up interfaces, so won't serve request. I'm not ignorant so much, to say it doesn't matter. That seems to be the first con not to make it in PLD, so please tell me, what is so speciffic bout it and we'll think is it really such an obstacle. Just tell me how dependencies work and I will know everything. I'm trying to get this information for 4 days. How can it work, when NOONE can tell me it's rules. How to start bind? service named start :D Manually after every system restart? ;P If something works 'free style', and my services can randomly become unavailable, it IS bad. Jumping to conclussions again? Why randomly become down? Assume that my OSPF dies (it happens with PLD quagga). It's not restarted by supervisor because I've disabled this function (Q1: can in be disabled? Q2: can in be disabled selectively?). Now it's time to rotate logs - postrotate script does service reload and all my services are shut down, because there's no required OSPF daemon running (Q0: how dependencies work, what's configurable?). Why free style? No rules==free style (I'm asking for these rules since monday, if YOU are so interested in merging this project into PLD why don't you know them?). Has anyone here written bout random restarts, random services going down. Yes, me. I've written the scenario a few times and got no answer. It's up to how we write the scripts. That's a large field to discuss. Also the trinary or larger logic - is it neceserry, how to ensure proper boot even after errors, what gets restarted and when. Well, if everything is TODO, what can I test or comment? EOT until we'll have something to discuss about. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Why don't you guys try to write down _requirements_ ie. list of properties that the new system must have before introducing it to PLD? On Thursday 15 December 2005 15:56, Tomasz Pala wrote: Assume that my OSPF dies (it happens with PLD quagga). It's not restarted by supervisor because I've disabled this function (Q1: can in be disabled? Q2: can in be disabled selectively?). Now it's time to rotate logs - postrotate script does service reload and all my services are shut down, because there's no required OSPF daemon running (Q0: how dependencies work, what's configurable?). Here we have a few wishes: -all services are restarted automatically after unexpected shutdown (unless specified otherwise by root on per service basis) -service can only _start_ when all its dependant services are running (that means no cascading shutdown of services), or can _run_ when all dependant services are running (in case there are services that would cause harm if their dependant services died) -common part of initng and current init scripts should be as big as possible -faster startup by parallelization -etc. (but you should propably continue in CVS) Once more: the idea is to write down WHAT IS NEEDED and then think if it's doable. -- Regards, Tomasz Grobelny ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:56:19 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Because I completely don't understand what You questions mean (like 'how to run services), it's better You look into the packages yourself (initng-pld) and then ask. If You want to learn scripting in initng go ahead and read bout it, don't ask me around. I'll try to write it once more - if my machine with services starts almost out of a box I don't understatnd the question 'how tu run services'. I'll repeat myself once more - since there are no native initng scripts written for PLD, fot now the 'scripts' just call ordinary plain old initcripts and only thing they add is dependencies(which also are made temporaly). So to run any of Your services, that aren't already in initng-pld, just copy any script of a deamon like, and edit these 4 lines, changing the old initscript name of the service and dependencies - that's pretty much it. If You want from me to tell You how initng works, then stop trolling and spend 5 minutes on reading it's main page (found easily via google) and after You've bothered doing that ask questions other than how to run a service X with some extra configuration. EOT till some more testing/scripting in initng occures. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 09:10:33PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had already written that it can be nice feature on desktops. But when your system becomes operational? Means working services - that's what customers may be interested with. Are You sure You've read previous posts? Are you sure you've read mine? Don't you understand what means RUNNING service, SERVING requests? It's not the same as 'I can login and write blablabla in shell'. Parallel running via backgrounding jobs gives better usage of resources when you've got different resource-consuming services. And only then. A ratio depends on what you're running and 'proven 2 times faster' can be ability to LOGIN to machine, not becoming fully OPERATIONAL. All customers don't give a shit if you can login or not. Give me a break dude - It works, it'll work better and faster, But sometimes something get killed or won't start at all. Yeah! it is more configurable, we It IS? just need to work on it and switch old init scripts to new ones - is that what You're reffering to? So what are you waiting for? Don't waste time talking with me, just do it, show me. For now all what you're doing is 'yeah, yeah, it is cool, fast, better, and you are wrong having doubts'. You won't be moving to th after dec.20, when AC will be frozen - that's obvoius, so I don't understand, what are You complaining bout? It's pretty Nothing. I'm just against gentooism like `it's two times faster'. much obvious, that th will be unstable and not all functionality will be done just after freezing AC, but that isn't the point here - or is it? The point is to use the oportunity of new line to implement some new, better If it is better, answer one of my question: how would you start bind in relation with quagga? officialy a part of PLD? Is it used by default? So what are You complaining bout? That beta software doesn't work 100% correct? There are How can it work, when NOONE can tell me it's rules. How to start bind? even no nativ initng scripts in PLD yet and You jump to conclusion, that they are bad. If something works 'free style', and my services can randomly become unavailable, it IS bad. Have You even bothered to look up what initng is, or to read throughly theese posts? You didn't bother to read mine. Or you don't understand them. If you want parallel services running just add '' in proper place (as you read my mails you know exactly where). All I want to know is: how dependencies work (will my services be killed by logrotate service reload after fatal error in quagga?). -- Tom Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:19:46 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Are you sure you've read mine? Don't you understand what means RUNNING service, SERVING requests? It's not the same as 'I can login and write blablabla in shell'. Parallel running via backgrounding jobs gives better usage of resources when you've got different resource-consuming services. And only then. A ratio depends on what you're running and 'proven 2 times faster' can be ability to LOGIN to machine, not becoming fully OPERATIONAL. All customers don't give a shit if you can login or not. So one more time - all services runned on my laptop (also apache etc ) start altogether 2x faster, then in traditional initsctips. But sometimes something get killed or won't start at all. Yeah! Does? Have You tested it? I don't see any without any reason. Let me rephrase that - I haven't seen any random kills on my laptop. it is more configurable, we It IS? Well, isn't it? So what are you waiting for? Don't waste time talking with me, just do it, show me. For now all what you're doing is 'yeah, yeah, it is cool, fast, better, and you are wrong having doubts'. And the only thing You're doing is saying no - we shouldn't switch to that, because it doesn't work yet and that's why the whole idea is wrong to start with. There are possibilites which we could utilize and give me a good reason, good retorical reason, why shouldn't we use that. So - what wan't work when we're done scripting, what is impossible because of the nature/architecture of initng and so on. So far You've just claimed the obvoius - it isn't ready and productional yet, but the question is, should we make it, should we take the effort of tweaking it to PLD and are there any things, that won't work for us!? Nothing. I'm just against gentooism like `it's two times faster'. Do I look to You like a Gentoo user? Am I writing things on pld list, or on the gentoo? Am I trying to sell You an operating system for $? No - I've just written down my personal experience with only slightly tweaked initng with PLD and the result is as follows - boot time, including *all* services and daemons, speed up dramatically, probably more than 2 times! If it is better, answer one of my question: how would you start bind in relation with quagga? I don't know what quogga is, but I don't see any service would be unrunable in the new initng. I'm not ignorant so much, to say it doesn't matter. That seems to be the first con not to make it in PLD, so please tell me, what is so speciffic bout it and we'll think is it really such an obstacle. How can it work, when NOONE can tell me it's rules. How to start bind? service named start :D If something works 'free style', and my services can randomly become unavailable, it IS bad. Jumping to conclussions again? Why randomly become down? Why free style? Has anyone here written bout random restarts, random services going down. All I want to know is: how dependencies work (will my services be killed by logrotate service reload after fatal error in quagga?). It's up to how we write the scripts. That's a large field to discuss. Also the trinary or larger logic - is it neceserry, how to ensure proper boot even after errors, what gets restarted and when. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
I have a suggestion: Lets stop feeding the troll. -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia 14-12-2005, śro o godzinie 18:00 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa napisał(a): I have a suggestion: Lets stop feeding the troll. To add to the discussion (support for faster parallel booting before init-ng): http://patrys.jogger.pl/comment.php?eid=161721 (pl_PL only) -- Patrys :: Patryk Zawadzki [EMAIL PROTECTED] PLD Linux signature.asc Description: To jest część listu podpisana cyfrowo ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:56:55 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Anyway I simply do not believe, that it's 'proven' to be two times faster, especially when speaking of machines which have some real load. I'm testing it right now on my laptop( yea - it doesn't have this much load, but it runnes few server-like daemons, like apache and mysql + pgsql ). The boot speeds up *really*! X starts in like 10sec from powering on the laptop! The problem is with tracing what runns and what doesn't. Since all starts parallel, there is a lot of output and things start in different places, sometimes between of other msgs. I think also we need to make the scripts use not binnary logic, but trinary more. Why? Example: I've forgot to connect my pen and mount outputed an error, which resulted in failure of running the mounting init script, which stopped 50% of the system from running, which is insane! We need a third state, that it generally did it's job, but there were errors. This way other thins would boot (like mysql, apache etc...) and some could fail indeed (like a partition where I keep apache wasn't mounted etc..), but we'll get the system up, because otherwise we could end up not allowing logins because of some minor errors. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 02:55:35PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm testing it right now on my laptop( yea - it doesn't have this much load, but it runnes few server-like daemons, like apache and mysql + pgsql ). The boot speeds up *really*! X starts in like 10sec from powering on the laptop! I had already written that it can be nice feature on desktops. But when your system becomes operational? Means working services - that's what customers may be interested with. trinary more. Why? Example: I've forgot to connect my pen and mount outputed an error, which resulted in failure of running the mounting init script, which stopped 50% of the system from running, which is insane! Hiehheiehe, I knew it;) -- Tom Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 02:55:35PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm testing it right now on my laptop( yea - it doesn't have this much load, but it runnes few server-like daemons, like apache and mysql + pgsql ). The boot speeds up *really*! X starts in like 10sec from powering on the laptop! I had already written that it can be nice feature on desktops. But when your system becomes operational? Means working services - that's what customers may be interested with. Faster because many things are taking place at the same time. The boot process is probably a best example of a process which can get tremendous boost from concurrency since most programs/daemons don't depend on each other and don't need to wait for others to start first. trinary more. Why? Example: I've forgot to connect my pen and mount outputed an error, which resulted in failure of running the mounting init script, which stopped 50% of the system from running, which is insane! Hiehheiehe, I knew it;) No comments. -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:56:55 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Anyway I simply do not believe, that it's 'proven' to be two times faster, especially when speaking of machines which have some real load. I'm testing it right now on my laptop( yea - it doesn't have this much load, but it runnes few server-like daemons, like apache and mysql + pgsql ). The boot speeds up *really*! X starts in like 10sec from powering on the laptop! The problem is with tracing what runns and what doesn't. Since all starts parallel, there is a lot of output and things start in different places, sometimes between of other msgs. There is need for something more graphical and/or interactive than classical boot messages stream. Maybe an ncurses interface allowing the admin to browse the save logs from various daemon and showing which are already up, which failed and what is currently running. This architecture will allow also fancy graphical bootup trees showing the startup (it will rock even more than Windows blue floating bar at the bottom of the screen ;) and whats more important (but contains less hype) would allow easy browsing of these logs with a GUI or web interface (including checking what is running and what can but turned on/off) -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:13:06 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: Maybe you need just to have a choice ? Exactly. Choice means maintaining two stes of init scripts. Nope. The current init scripts could be modified to expose all the needed functionality and their startup could be even created according to the dependency database. The current init scripts' sequence numbers would be simply autogenerated. It's all about extending them and making them more powerful. Read more about Patrys' proposal for new init process. It's all there. The alternative to this is the workground made now - that the initng doesn't start services/daemons dirrectely, but runnes old inint scripts, but that sounds lame ;/ It surely does but that's the immediate stage. -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:05:06 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: I had already written that it can be nice feature on desktops. But when your system becomes operational? Means working services - that's what customers may be interested with. Are You sure You've read previous posts? You could as well say, that current initscripts are bad and won't work on comercial system, because (for example only) there is no init script for apache!? Give me a break dude - It works, it'll work better and faster, it is more configurable, we just need to work on it and switch old init scripts to new ones - is that what You're reffering to? You won't be moving to th after dec.20, when AC will be frozen - that's obvoius, so I don't understand, what are You complaining bout? It's pretty much obvious, that th will be unstable and not all functionality will be done just after freezing AC, but that isn't the point here - or is it? The point is to use the oportunity of new line to implement some new, better functionality. It's obvious, that beta things aren't in productional phase, but they will be and nobody makes You use beta software! Hiehheiehe, I knew it;) Knew what? Knew that it doesn't work out of the box? Well should it? Is it officialy a part of PLD? Is it used by default? So what are You complaining bout? That beta software doesn't work 100% correct? There are even no nativ initng scripts in PLD yet and You jump to conclusion, that they are bad. Have You even bothered to look up what initng is, or to read throughly theese posts? [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:14AM +0300, Denis Ovsienko wrote: That would probably require some hacking. You could try to install Th from scratch into a chroot on another partition and than try to boot from it. It should be more secure than installing from scratch. Is there any documentation on installing 3.0 from scratch? You can install it from Ac using poldek: # poldek --root /chrootth -n th_source. All you have to remember is to rebuild rpm database afterwards - erase everything but Packages from /var/lib/rpm and do rpm --rebuilddb. Works like a charm. -- .. :: http://www.pomocdladominiki.com.pl/ -- możesz pomóc :: .. | Everybody needs someone sure, someone true, PLD Linux developer | Everybody needs some solid rock, I know I do. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 02:06:39 +0100, Andrzej Krzysztofowicz wrote: mass murder by supervisor bug. I do trust init and that's all. Maybe you need just to have a choice ? Exactly. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 18:56:28 +0100, Jacek Konieczny wrote: Irrevelant? My customers _do_ care if a maintenance break (e.g. reboot during kernel upgrate) lasts 5 or 10 minutes. If so, why don't you use some HA? Anyway I simply do not believe, that it's 'proven' to be two times faster, especially when speaking of machines which have some real load. http://initng.thinktux.net/index.php/Boot_charts_Official First check, than argue. Of course it can be different for a server but the ratio will probably remain simillar. The simplest reason I can think of (there are other too) is that there are deamons whose startup is CPU bound (Apache? Samba?) and I/O bound (most of them probably... I know about CUPS which starts without any disc activity and probably also no CPU usage I guess it just waits for printers enumeration). -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 21:29:59 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These two alternatives are where we should search for a way out. Or we hold an enviroment to build patches and so on (the question is how long and how many steps back). The '???' alternative sound great - but we have to invet it : It already is - distro lines. But it doesn't really work. Ra is stable but hopelessly old. Ac is newer but not stable. The releasing process is painful. We can have ready and test. Ready could be then used for bug-fixes and critical updates before the whole new environment is complete. This way we could have a constantly current distro with snapshots that are retrospectively tagged as stable (with ISO releases and FTP directories) and can be used on servers and with updates that apply almost without a problem (comparing to what we have with Ra-Ac migration) because all the developers would try to make them better (contrary to the current state, when all developers are using Ac or Th and almost none of them are bothered by Ra update). The true idea behind this whole proposal is to sanction the process that's already taking place in Ac. To stop thinking about the release and focus on making infrastructure and architectural changes [1] to ease the continuous development process that is already a taking place. It won't solve all our problems and double the effect halving the required effort at the same time but I think it could work better than the current scheme. It would also make PLD different from other distros giving more stress on the constantly up-to-date aspect of it. No one have ever proved that this is a bad idea and what's more nobody I am aware of event tried it so maybe it's worth trying. [1] - FTP revisions and their tagging (so you can always downgrade or simply use an older version until you gain confidence that newer is better) - giving developers more access to the builders (as was proposed by mmazur for Th) - adding things like automatic* filesystem snapshooting based on UnionFS allowing you to reverse all changes done to a filesystem (or a part of it) to fix after broken upgrades * it could be triggered automatically by poldek (configurable) or manually before large administration changes -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Andrzej Krzysztofowicz wrote: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyY2luIEtyw7Ns?= wrote: I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now But if you leave one machine not upgraded, after some time it may become not upgradeable. Because of missing triggers, package splits, missing obsoletes, etc. Maybe there is need for a better package update system (some kind of incremental triggers that would support upgrades from almost every version)? The restrictions on adding a new version to the main tree could also become more strict just like they were on man pages in the early UNIX days. You don't add a good migration banner/script/readme[1] = you won't get the new version to the main tree. [1] This would also allow notes with changelogs and general information passed from packager for the admin. Splitting this (together with %descriptions and maybe installation time scripts) from main package building to some kind of database that could be modified without rebuilding the package could also be worthy but would require deep rpmbuild changes. (I'm not totally convinced about this one) -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 05:56:56PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: But think about big transitions, such as gcc - when most of C++/Fortran/Ada/GCJ-based Java stuff must be rebuilt. And many programs appear broken, so they wouldn't exist in distro even for few months. All those programs will not exist, but just in devel tree on ftp. They however will still exist in stable tree. After doing all necessary fixes and rebuilding all necessary packages (no matter how long it will take) stuff from devel tree (after tests of course) will be moved to stable tree. Well... we can see Ac as such development tree for gcc/glibc transition after Ra. Ac hasn't been released yet not because it was too early to release something new, but because it was never considered complete... BTW, does Ac have all packages that Ra did or proper set of Obsoletes now? What should be different in this approach from releasing the new X version of PLD? After moving packages from devel to stable tree, poldek --upgrade-dist should do the job or if it can't it should inform administrator that his attention is required before performing an upgrade. Ra-Ac isn't too hard on simple configurations... Just a few transitions ;) Of course, separate builders will be required for both stable and devel trees, but we already have them, haven't we? With 2 sets of builders, when some new transition occur before some older is complete - they cumulate, and require more time. And later require more admin attention when performing upgrade. Effect could be just like waiting for Ac after Ra release... [...] I'm OK with releasing new version of PLD with each milestone like gcc or glibc if 'poldek --upgrade-dist' will be the only tool needed for upgrade. And if poldek will be unable to perform upgrade it should inform me about it ie I'm unable to perfrom upgrade-dist because of incompatibility between postgresql 8.0 and 8.1 or I'm unable to perform upgrade: kernel24 has been removed from distribution because of glibc = 2.4. That would be very nice :) Your architecture disappeared. You don't exist, go away. ;) -- Jakub Boguszhttp://qboosh.cs.net.pl/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Well... we can see Ac as such development tree for gcc/glibc transition after Ra. Ac hasn't been released yet not because it was too early to release something new, but because it was never considered complete... The truth for me is that Ac wasn't released yet because most of us are developing it in our free time, but thats a different story and OT :) BTW, does Ac have all packages that Ra did Probably not. or proper set of Obsoletes now? Same here. I don't have list of missing packages or list of missing obsoletes, but few times I wasn't able to find substitute for some packages. That was a looong time ago, though. I remember at least mirrordir and cvs-admin, but I think its good those two are gone :) Ra-Ac isn't too hard on simple configurations... Just a few transitions ;) It isn't hard at all, its just time consuming ;) However I like to sit in server room at night. Noone is bothering me, no phones, no users, loud music, pizza... ;) With 2 sets of builders, when some new transition occur before some older is complete - they cumulate, and require more time. And later require more admin attention when performing upgrade. Effect could be just like waiting for Ac after Ra release... One builder set per transition then? But I don't think we will start developing ie. gcc 5.5 before finishing 5.0. It would be just waste of resources. Your architecture disappeared. You don't exist, go away. ;) ROTFL! Thats a good one :) M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 22:48:45 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: http://initng.thinktux.net/index.php/Boot_charts_Official First check, than argue. With pleasure. Just tell me what to install and I will do it on one of my backup systems. remain simillar. The simplest reason I can think of (there are other too) is that there are deamons whose startup is CPU bound (Apache? I'm aware of the reason and don't think I'll profit much. Well, unless we're talking about 486 and floppy... -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 23:10:40 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: We can have ready and test. Ready could be then used for bug-fixes and critical updates before the whole new environment is complete. Just ONE thing: where would you inject gcc4? Second? I've got BIG problem with mysql in AC, because I can't upgrade 4.0.x to anything above on production machine. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 00:32:23 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: You are free to create mysql40.spec in the way that it can coexist with current mysql. I'm waiting for glen with his mysql4 ; And as it's to be done in my job I'm waiting for agreement from my employer to license/sth. BTW someone knows what should be in there? ps. I also still use 4.0 with hundreds of databases without any problem on current AC. Just updates are done manually. ~: rpm -qa \*mysql\* | sort mysql-4.0.23-3 mysql-client-4.0.23-3 mysql-devel-4.1.14-2 mysql-libs-4.0.23-3 mysql-libs-4.1.14-2 mysql-libs-5.0.15-5 mysqlstat-0.0.0.4-2 mysqlstat-cgi-0.0.0.4-2 perl-DBD-mysql-3.0002-1 php-mysql-5.0.5-17 I hope it won't stop working someday. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 22:48:45 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: http://initng.thinktux.net/index.php/Boot_charts_Official First check, than argue. With pleasure. Just tell me what to install and I will do it on one of my backup systems. I've tried once to make it run on PLD but failed to get the expected results. I don't quite remember why... All I know is that I've abandoned this... You could give it a try: bootchart.org remain simillar. The simplest reason I can think of (there are other too) is that there are deamons whose startup is CPU bound (Apache? I'm aware of the reason and don't think I'll profit much. There are still some that will just sit there and wait for sth. stupid before starting. (and you can't start two of these at a time now) Well, unless we're talking about 486 and floppy... Not everybody has RAID with ultra fast SCSI discs, dual core 64bit processors and 8GB of RAM in every server. ;] -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Hi I have a working 2.0 installed. How can I switch it to 3.0 to continue learning ways to incorporate /etc/net into PLD? -- DO4-UANIC ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sunday 11 December 2005 02:38, Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 01:23:12 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: Small chances for such think to work, as many of our services shall return HGW instead of DONE. Huh? You seem to have no idea how supervising is usually done. The processes Indeed. How long does it wait until assumes that service is running (it should wait to eliminate risk of races - init part of one program can take longer than starting another)? What does it do when required service dies after some other (which depends on it) has already started (or is starting)? - I'm particullary interested in service restart/reload, as they're triggered automatically from logrotate. It doesn't assume anything - if the child is there then it works, if it's not there then it died. are run in foreground as childs of supervising process. If it dies then process knows about that. Mmhhhmm... 'background'? Hm, why don't we use such a 'supervising process' now? background for user but foreground for supervising process. We don't use it since no one tried to pust some supervisor into rc-scripts for examp.e. In short: some services can start just-to-die-SOON giving DONE. With supervising there is no DONE. Take a look at daemontools.spec or free replacement (don't remember name). After all - what are the advantages? Faster startup (due to backgrounding jobs)? Sounds coming from my disks say no (maybe if someone has broken DNS, didn't initialize postgresql database or has some other misconfiguration). I don't care about faster startup. I care only about one thing - start service again if it died. -- Arkadiusz MiśkiewiczPLD/Linux Team http://www.t17.ds.pwr.wroc.pl/~misiek/ http://ftp.pld-linux.org/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 14:06:39 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: background for user but foreground for supervising process. We don't use it I see. However I'm afraid there will be problems with services starting a few different processes, like jabber (router, resolver, sn, c2s, s2s). I don't care about faster startup. I care only about one thing - start service again if it died. Such watchdog can be simply created by croning `service [/etc/init.d/*] status`. Paralell startup can be nice feature on desktops - starting [kg]dm and allowlogin before network/MTA/donkey/apache/*sql -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
It's ok as long, as we make ISO-s from time to time. That is the part of always in developement idea. I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. 2) Maintain distro itself. Now if there is some security bug it should be fixed in Ra, Ac, Th. With always in developement we'll prepare/commit/test/build fixed packages only once. M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sunday 11 of December 2005 12:47, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's ok as long, as we make ISO-s from time to time. I can't see what's blah blah blah bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. There is no need PLD != MS Windows really doesnt matter to me, if we make th, then th1.5, th2.0 and so on, or if we name future ISO-s or relases with new names. Generally whatever, but let jut RMs and CDG do the job ok ? -- Daniel Dominik Rudnicki JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpxItZmfmDKO.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 14:06:39 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: I don't care about faster startup. I care only about one thing - start service again if it died. Such watchdog can be simply created by croning `service [/etc/init.d/*] status`. That's a very ugly solution. I haven't been following this init.d discussion too closely, but what you're proposing is ugly. -- |Andrew A. Gill |I posted to Silent-Tristero and| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |all I got was this stupid sig! | |alt.tv.simpsons CBG-FAQ author | | | (Report all obscene mail to Le Maitre Pots)| |Yet: http://www.needsfoodbadly.com Temporary sig: -- Ugly. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sunday 11 December 2005 03:38, Tomasz Pala wrote: No idea. Maybe bind requires network while zebra becomes part of network when it's installed? bind requires interfaces (to bind to) - that's for sure. But how about routing? Dependency means 'can stand up and WILL work if...' (bind to interfaces, wait for routing and network access) or 'can do it's job NOW' (needs routing for serving requests)? i think it should be first version in most cases btw, there's done some work with initng. http://svn.pld-linux.org/cgi-bin/viewsvn/initng/ -- glen ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:45:22PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: It's ok as long, as we make ISO-s from time to time. That is the part of always in developement idea. I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. But think about big transitions, such as gcc - when most of C++/Fortran/Ada/GCJ-based Java stuff must be rebuilt. And many programs appear broken, so they wouldn't exist in distro even for few months. gcc 4.0 isn't so new now (about 8 months from 4.0.0 release has passed), but many programs still need fixes, sometimes non-trivial. Or glibc - since glibc 2.4 support for Linux 2.6.0 is no more. If you have some piece of hardware not supported by current Linux, you could stick to older line of distro until you can buy some new hardware or update drivers to work with current Linux. Or removing whole architecture from distro. -- Jakub Boguszhttp://qboosh.cs.net.pl/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:34:31 +0100, Adam Gołębiowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: In case you didn't notice, NEST was disbaned some time ago. In deed I didn't - so it was? Didn't know that - sry Nevertheless don't make a second NEST out of TH!? NEST was something different from what was proposed for Th. -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:47:45 +0100, Daniel Dominik Rudnicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: let jut RMs and CDG do the job ok ? blah blah blah [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:52:49 +0100, Adam Gołębiowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:45:22PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. All of that is true - as long as from time to time we'll bake some iso, everything is fine for me. What about some groundbraking change like gcc update (breaking BC)? That'd be a point to make an iso - perfect for making some 'version', 'release', 'snapshot' or whatever You call it - an iso. How are we expected to handle these in a 'allways in development' style distro? That bothers me also... [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 08:52:36 -0500, Andrew A. Gill wrote: That's a very ugly solution. I haven't been following this init.d discussion too closely, but what you're proposing is ugly. Daemons shouldn't die and they don't without any reason. I've got only one broken - ospf, if you have more you should revise system configuration and hardware. Generally speaking there's no common need for watching over services, thus I don't see much interest in switching startup scripts. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 03:54:20PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:52:49 +0100, Adam Gołębiowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:45:22PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. All of that is true - as long as from time to time we'll bake some iso, everything is fine for me. What about some groundbraking change like gcc update (breaking BC)? That'd be a point to make an iso - perfect for making some 'version', 'release', 'snapshot' or whatever You call it - an iso. And what can I do with ISO full of security holes (or other serious bugs), with only binary-incompatible updates on ftp? always in development works good only for periods of time limited by big transitions. -- Jakub Boguszhttp://qboosh.cs.net.pl/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 08:52:36 -0500, Andrew A. Gill wrote: That's a very ugly solution. I haven't been following this init.d discussion too closely, but what you're proposing is ugly. Daemons shouldn't die and they don't without any reason. I've got only one broken - ospf, if you have more you should revise system configuration and hardware. Generally speaking there's no common need for watching over services, thus I don't see much interest in switching startup scripts. NMB dies when it runs out of network interfaces. That's stupid but is considered a feature by samba developers... Supervising daemons could allow creating an easy GUI control panel for them, informing the admin about problems. The startup time with init-ng is proved to be less than a half compared to plain SysVinit. -- Regards, Jakub Piotr Cłapa ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:07:23 +0100, Jakub Bogusz [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: And what can I do with ISO full of security holes (or other serious bugs), with only binary-incompatible updates on ftp? Every sytem gets outdated and with security holes with time. We do the main ftp the best w can, so it is as secure, as we make it ( not counting holes, that get found later ). What do we get? and iso, that could be installed and used, and updtaes? If main is well made, then upgrade with poldek should make the instalation compatibile with main. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sunday 11 of December 2005 15:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: blah blah blah [EMAIL PROTECTED] yep -- Daniel Dominik Rudnicki JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgplvfKSYP7nf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 16:10:19 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: The startup time with init-ng is proved to be less than a half compared to plain SysVinit. With 3-6 months uptimes it's irrevelant if restart due to new kernel takes 5 or 10 minutes. My conclusion coming from this discussion is that's desktop solution, not server one. Am I right? -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
But think about big transitions, such as gcc - when most of C++/Fortran/Ada/GCJ-based Java stuff must be rebuilt. And many programs appear broken, so they wouldn't exist in distro even for few months. All those programs will not exist, but just in devel tree on ftp. They however will still exist in stable tree. After doing all necessary fixes and rebuilding all necessary packages (no matter how long it will take) stuff from devel tree (after tests of course) will be moved to stable tree. What should be different in this approach from releasing the new X version of PLD? After moving packages from devel to stable tree, poldek --upgrade-dist should do the job or if it can't it should inform administrator that his attention is required before performing an upgrade. Of course, separate builders will be required for both stable and devel trees, but we already have them, haven't we? There are probably many more holes in my thinking, but I believe we should be able to solve these problems. I'm OK with releasing new version of PLD with each milestone like gcc or glibc if 'poldek --upgrade-dist' will be the only tool needed for upgrade. And if poldek will be unable to perform upgrade it should inform me about it ie I'm unable to perfrom upgrade-dist because of incompatibility between postgresql 8.0 and 8.1 or I'm unable to perform upgrade: kernel24 has been removed from distribution because of glibc = 2.4. That would be very nice :) M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 04:31:33PM +0100, Tomasz Pala wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 16:10:19 +0100, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote: The startup time with init-ng is proved to be less than a half compared to plain SysVinit. With 3-6 months uptimes it's irrevelant if restart due to new kernel takes 5 or 10 minutes. Irrevelant? My customers _do_ care if a maintenance break (e.g. reboot during kernel upgrate) lasts 5 or 10 minutes. My conclusion coming from this discussion is that's desktop solution, not server one. Am I right? I, as a single user of my desktop machine, may go to make some tea, when the machine boots. It is much harder to explain thousands of customers, calling during machine boot, why their services don't work. Greets, Jacek ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
=?UTF-8?B?TWFyY2luIEtyw7Ns?= wrote: I can't see what's bothering ppl bout dying ac and th. Windows 98 and 95 and ME died as well, other distros also make new versions and move on forward. For me personally if we will switch to awlays in developement distro it would be easier to: 1) Maintain my machines, by simply doing poldek --upgrade-dist out of stable tree. Occasionally there will be need to do some manual upgrades like from postgres 8.0 to 8.1 which requires database dump/restore. Now But if you leave one machine not upgraded, after some time it may become not upgradeable. Because of missing triggers, package splits, missing obsoletes, etc. lets assume that we will stay with current distro politics + we will release new version every year. So once a year I'll probably have to reinstall all the machines because version Z was released and X has reached an EOL. What for machines that are not upgradeable N - N+1? Eg. because of their configuration and bugs present in year N+1 release. Will rel. N+2 support N - N+2 upgrade ? Eg. some X11 version (or any other commonly used library) is unusable for them, suggested solution is to use previous version with bugfixes? 2) Maintain distro itself. Now if there is some security bug it should be fixed in Ra, Ac, Th. With always in developement we'll prepare/commit/test/build fixed packages only once. Yes, leaving the work for machine admins is simpler. -- === Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (48)(58) 347 14 61 Faculty of Applied Phys. Math., Gdansk University of Technology ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:31:33 +0100, Tomasz Pala [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: My conclusion coming from this discussion is that's desktop solution, not server one. Am I right? The equasion is simple - I see new functionality added, few new fatures, faster boot and nothing taken - so, where is the problem? You get the same thing, that earlier, but faster and better - where is the problem? [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:06:58 +0100, Andrzej Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: - building a bugfix package and move it to main - not possible because of incompatible builder envinronment - ??? These two alternatives are where we should search for a way out. Or we hold an enviroment to build patches and so on (the question is how long and how many steps back). The '???' alternative sound great - but we have to invet it : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcin_Kr=F3l?= wrote: Upgrade from Ra to Ac == 1 night at server room for every production machine. And this will IMO not change in Ac-Th transition or any other leater X-Y transition. Have you seen a distro that supports full machine upgrade (incl. configuration fixes/rewrites) in less than one night ? But that's OT. -- === Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (48)(58) 347 14 61 Faculty of Applied Phys. Math., Gdansk University of Technology ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Have you seen a distro that supports full machine upgrade (incl. configuration fixes/rewrites) in less than one night ? Of course not, but less differences == less time in server room. Which leads me to conclusion: no matter what philosophy we will choose we should be releasing stable versions more often to limit these differences. But thats not possible IMO, almost every developer should know why :/ But that's OT. True. So lets EOT :) M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 18:56:28 +0100, Jacek Konieczny wrote: Irrevelant? My customers _do_ care if a maintenance break (e.g. reboot during kernel upgrate) lasts 5 or 10 minutes. If so, why don't you use some HA? Anyway I simply do not believe, that it's 'proven' to be two times faster, especially when speaking of machines which have some real load. the machine boots. It is much harder to explain thousands of customers, calling during machine boot, why their services don't work. $ wc -l /etc/passwd 1634 /etc/passwd I don't have this problem fortunatelly;) -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 19:01:55 +0100, Jacek Konieczny wrote: That would be in an ideal world. Daemons have resource leaks and will be To my information: which one? killed when reach the resource limit (with process supervision ulimit becomes very usefull). Hmmm... what's with ulimit without supervision? They may crash on some unexpected event. That may be after months of uninterrupted work. It is usually better if they come back again if possible, then if they are down until the administrator manually start them again. In ideal world;) I'd be afraid of possible bugs in supervisor, but will be really happy if people like you will test it sometime; -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 21:29:59 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These two alternatives are where we should search for a way out. Or we hold an enviroment to build patches and so on (the question is how long and how many steps back). The '???' alternative sound great - but we have to invet it : It already is - distro lines. -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Tomasz Pala wrote: It's nice solution for fast system startup (but I doubt it's signifficant change - do me a favour and add '' at the end of /etc/rc.d/rc line 213 to check it please). Process supervising if configurable can be nice feature too, but for me it's not worth risking mass murder by supervisor bug. I do trust init and that's all. Maybe you need just to have a choice ? -- === Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (48)(58) 347 14 61 Faculty of Applied Phys. Math., Gdansk University of Technology ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
That would probably require some hacking. You could try to install Th from scratch into a chroot on another partition and than try to boot from it. It should be more secure than installing from scratch. Is there any documentation on installing 3.0 from scratch? -- DO4-UANIC ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
ANN: Closing AC
The time has almost come. There will be one more bigger move from ready to main but it will be the last one. Futher updates to main tree won't be allowed unless it's important bugfix or missing package. If installer isn't (and won't) be ready - well, we can't do anything about that. The release can be delayed even few months but non bugfix updates still won't be allowed. Kernel 2.6.14.x will be main one for Ac. Deadline for any updates before closing is ~ 20 dec 2005 (in some worse cases 31 dec 2005). AC builder request access will be revoked at that time for most people. It's time to start playing with PLD Th. PS. This is approved by PLD AC RM. -- Arkadiusz MiśkiewiczPLD/Linux Team http://www.t17.ds.pwr.wroc.pl/~misiek/ http://ftp.pld-linux.org/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia sobota 10 grudzień 2005 15:01, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz napisał: I think it's also time to make a TODO list - there are still some things (eg. lirc em8300 for 2.6) missing... -- Witold Kręcicki (adasi) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.culm.net Tylko drugorzędny umysł nie potrafi wybrać pomiędzy literaturą a prawdziwą nocą duszy - Emil Cioran ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:01:44 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: The time has almost come. Great!!! now that's talkin! [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
The time has almost come. That can't be... ;) There will be one more bigger move from ready to main but it will be the last one. Futher updates to main tree won't be allowed unless it's important bugfix or missing package. And we'll finish the way Ra did. If installer isn't (and won't) be ready - well, we can't do anything about that. The release can be delayed even few months but non bugfix updates still won't be allowed. Installer is almost ready. It works fine enough for me (anyone else is using it?). The only thing to do now is to finish update of package groups, update iso-priority files and generate ISO images. Kernel 2.6.14.x will be main one for Ac. All the bugs that were reported were also fixed? Deadline for any updates before closing is ~ 20 dec 2005 (in some worse cases 31 dec 2005). AC builder request access will be revoked at that time for most people. I hope my access will remain :) Its required for release bumps when something goes to Ra. It's time to start playing with PLD Th. Yes, it is indeed. How about making Th always in developement like it was proposed on devel-pl (or discuss, I'm not sure). M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 09:11:50PM +0100, Marcin Król wrote: The time has almost come. That can't be... ;) There will be one more bigger move from ready to main but it will be the last one. Futher updates to main tree won't be allowed unless it's important bugfix or missing package. And we'll finish the way Ra did. Ra was OK as stable system for servers for about a year. Ac should be released two years ago ;) [...] It's time to start playing with PLD Th. Yes, it is indeed. How about making Th always in developement like it was proposed on devel-pl (or discuss, I'm not sure). It will probably be for some time. And there will probably be some moment to make it (more) stable later. But... who knows now. -- Jakub Boguszhttp://qboosh.cs.net.pl/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 09:44:36PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:11:50 +0100, Marcin Król [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: How about making Th always in developement like it was proposed on devel-pl (or discuss, I'm not sure). How about You using NEST instead of PLD? In case you didn't notice, NEST was disbaned some time ago. -- .. :: http://www.pomocdladominiki.com.pl/ -- możesz pomóc :: .. | Everybody needs someone sure, someone true, PLD Linux developer | Everybody needs some solid rock, I know I do. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Dnia Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:34:31 +0100, Adam Gołębiowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał: In case you didn't notice, NEST was disbaned some time ago. In deed I didn't - so it was? Didn't know that - sry Nevertheless don't make a second NEST out of TH!? [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to The Dark Side - Yoda ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: The time has almost come. Yay! Question: Th is 3.0. Is there any other difference? Any philosophical changes? e.g. smaller packages, more packages, fewer dependencies, different compiler flags? -- |Andrew A. Gill |I posted to Silent-Tristero and| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |all I got was this stupid sig! | |alt.tv.simpsons CBG-FAQ author | | | (Report all obscene mail to Le Maitre Pots)| |Yet: http://www.needsfoodbadly.com Temporary sig: -- Thanks. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Saturday 10 December 2005 23:41, Andrew A. Gill wrote: On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: The time has almost come. Yay! Question: Th is 3.0. Is there any other difference? Any philosophical changes? e.g. smaller packages, more packages, fewer dependencies, different compiler flags? New versions (gcc 4), smaller sets of architectures. There was one major thing which could end in Th - dropping init.d part of rc-scripts and replacing it with something that could supervise services, start things based on dependencies (not priorites) but at this moment no one even started that project. ... so nothing great I'm afraid. -- Arkadiusz MiśkiewiczPLD/Linux Team http://www.t17.ds.pwr.wroc.pl/~misiek/ http://ftp.pld-linux.org/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
How about You using NEST instead of PLD? Go and grep some list archives to learn what was philosophy of NEST and what was proposed for Th. It was something completly different. Making Th always in developement doesn't mean making Th always unstable. M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
Ra was OK as stable system for servers for about a year. Ac should be released two years ago ;) Thats true, Ra was _very_ stable... and still is :) I hope that releasing Th will take us less time than releasing Ac :) I'm just worried that one maybe two years after relesing Ac almost everyone will be using Th because of new versions of software. If I'm right, Ac will die the same way Ra did :/ It will probably be for some time. And there will probably be some moment to make it (more) stable later. But... who knows now. I really liked the idea of always in developement distro that was proposed. M. ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 23:53:04 +0100, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote: rc-scripts and replacing it with something that could supervise services, start things based on dependencies (not priorites) but at this moment no one Small chances for such think to work, as many of our services shall return HGW instead of DONE. Moreover - how to set dependencies when packager don't know e.g. network configuration? Does 'bind' require running 'zebra*', or is 'network' sufficient? -- GoTaR priv0.onet.pl-gotarhttp://vfmg.sourceforge.net/ http://tccs.sourceforge.net/ ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:43:17PM -0500, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
On Sunday 11 December 2005 01:07, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
smaller sets of architectures.
What do you mean?
lftp ftp.pld-linux.org:/dists ls th/PLD
drwxr-xr-x 4 pldthusers 33 Sep 16 2004 SRPMS
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 athlon
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i486
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i686
drwxr-xr-x 3 pldthusers 17 Oct 7 2004 noarch
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 ppc
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 x86_64
No more Alpha? That means I can't use PLD anymore!
I just did a look at logs (last 4 weeks) of our primary ftp. It turns
out that we have just a few alpha users. Here's the result of:
# zgrep alpha xferlog* | awk '{print $7}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -k 1 -r |
nl -nln
No No of entries IP
1 6707 83.243.104.2
2 3718 80.85.231.62
3 1290 217.11.152.118
4 330 149.156.119.10
(...)
The rest was 206 connections from different IPs, out of which 190 was 10
or less entries.
Logs from ftp4 shows there were no connections related to alpha.
It looks like we have 4 alpha users out there. Maybe a little more if
they use http based access or different servers. Still not much.
On the other hand, stats for ppc or sparc show that there is also small
user base - 18 and 13 IPs respectively with 10 or more entries.
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Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:00:51AM +0100, Adam Gołębiowski wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:43:17PM -0500, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
On Sunday 11 December 2005 01:07, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
smaller sets of architectures.
What do you mean?
lftp ftp.pld-linux.org:/dists ls th/PLD
drwxr-xr-x 4 pldthusers 33 Sep 16 2004 SRPMS
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 athlon
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i486
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i686
drwxr-xr-x 3 pldthusers 17 Oct 7 2004 noarch
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 ppc
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 x86_64
No more Alpha? That means I can't use PLD anymore!
I just did a look at logs (last 4 weeks) of our primary ftp. It turns
out that we have just a few alpha users. Here's the result of:
# zgrep alpha xferlog* | awk '{print $7}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -k 1 -r
| nl -nln
NoNo of entries IP
1 6707 83.243.104.2
2 3718 80.85.231.62
3 1290 217.11.152.118
4 330 149.156.119.10
(...)
The rest was 206 connections from different IPs, out of which 190 was 10
or less entries.
Logs from ftp4 shows there were no connections related to alpha.
It looks like we have 4 alpha users out there. Maybe a little more if
they use http based access or different servers. Still not much.
+1 or 2.
I'm using local rsynced mirror. ankry probably too?
On the other hand, stats for ppc or sparc show that there is also small
user base - 18 and 13 IPs respectively with 10 or more entries.
So it's similar to Debian's archs popularity report I posted some time ago:
i386 x86_64 ppc(32) sparc alpha others (incl. ia64, ppc64, s390*)
And if we are planning to add some new architecture (like ia64 or ppc64,
of which we thought already), we should add sparc and alpha first :P
--
Jakub Boguszhttp://qboosh.cs.net.pl/
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Re: ANN: Closing AC
Jakub Bogusz wrote:
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:00:51AM +0100, Adam Gołębiowski wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 07:43:17PM -0500, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
On Sunday 11 December 2005 01:07, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
smaller sets of architectures.
What do you mean?
lftp ftp.pld-linux.org:/dists ls th/PLD
drwxr-xr-x 4 pldthusers 33 Sep 16 2004 SRPMS
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 athlon
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i486
drwxr-xr-x 8 pldthusers 82 Sep 8 2004 i686
drwxr-xr-x 3 pldthusers 17 Oct 7 2004 noarch
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 ppc
drwxr-xr-x 7 pldthusers 67 Sep 8 2004 x86_64
No more Alpha? That means I can't use PLD anymore!
I just did a look at logs (last 4 weeks) of our primary ftp. It turns
out that we have just a few alpha users. Here's the result of:
# zgrep alpha xferlog* | awk '{print $7}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -k 1
-r | nl -nln
No No of entries IP
1 6707 83.243.104.2
2 3718 80.85.231.62
3 1290 217.11.152.118
4 330 149.156.119.10
(...)
The rest was 206 connections from different IPs, out of which 190 was 10
or less entries.
Logs from ftp4 shows there were no connections related to alpha.
It looks like we have 4 alpha users out there. Maybe a little more if
they use http based access or different servers. Still not much.
+1 or 2.
I'm using local rsynced mirror. ankry probably too?
From ftp2:
1 35914 217.149.246.5
2 21880 212.51.220.235
3 10290 193.219.28.2
4 2627 62.233.140.218
5 1730 80.85.231.62
6 703 208.186.50.98
7 539 80.53.143.4
8 217 195.136.61.2
9 143 84.129.121.73
[...]
26 25 85.198.230.209
27 25 200.101.75.40
28 25 138.89.215.102
[...]
42 10 84.162.94.106
[...]
409 1 128.197.14.207
410 1 10.60.10.16
411 1 10.60.1.101
So tail is much longer here.
And my machine is missing: I use local dir access or http.
--
===
Andrzej M. Krzysztofowicz[EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone (48)(58) 347 14 61
Faculty of Applied Phys. Math., Gdansk University of Technology
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Re: ANN: Closing AC
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Andrzej Krzysztofowicz wrote: 6 703 208.186.50.98 I can see my house from here! -- |Andrew A. Gill |I posted to Silent-Tristero and| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |all I got was this stupid sig! | |alt.tv.simpsons CBG-FAQ author | | | (Report all obscene mail to Le Maitre Pots)| |Yet: http://www.needsfoodbadly.com Temporary sig: -- ___ pld-devel-en mailing list pld-devel-en@lists.pld-linux.org http://lists.pld-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/pld-devel-en
