Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
On 9/24/20 6:53 PM, Michael Barnes wrote: You need to verify the wiring from your generator through the transfer panel. Depending on how it is configured, it is possible the ground does not make it all the way through when on generator. This can easily be checked with one of those 3 light circuit testers. I have run into this in the field using generators. In many generators, the ground and neutral are not bonded. A UPS will see this as a fault and not accept the power. For a building, a transfer panel may be wired a couple of different ways. For a large "whole house" system, the transfer panel simply switches between commercial power and a big generator prior to the main service panel. In that case, the ground-neutral bond takes place in the service panel and all should be good. In some cases, however, the generator is not big enough for the whole house. In those situations, there will be a sub panel for the "priority" circuits. The transfer switch then toggles between the feed from the main service panel and the generator. Sometimes, the transfer panel is wired incorrectly and does not provide the G-N bond when on the generator. Most modern generators are pretty well regulated, so the UPS rejecting due to frequency or voltage is not likely. (Unless it is a cheapo Harbor Freight or similar generator.) Working a lot of field communications activity and back-up power for critical sites, I have run into this quite often. Check the wiring before worrying about power conditioners. The transfer panel was installed by an electrician about 20 years ago. The installation was done under a building permit, so I'm pretty sure all the wiring is correct. And we never had this problem with our first generator. -- Regards, Dick Steffens ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
On 9/24/20 7:04 PM, Chuck Hast wrote: Same here, your gen set may need a few minutes to stabilize but it should settle on 60Hz and since you do not have a large number of inductors and capacitors on the line it should be fairly clean. You can find multimeters that will measure low frequency signals and of course 60hz is down there. This page from Amazon brings up a nice selection of both multi- meters and even digital panel meters: https://www.amazon.com/Frequency-Meter/s?k=Frequency+Meter Hopefully the meter on the generator will be good enough. Unless you have something weird in your gen set you should be getting pretty nice (probably better than PGE) sine waves out of your gen set. Of course there could be something wrong with the governor and it is not keeping tight control on the machine. The meter will tell you that as you cycle loads on and off of the machine. The stuff coming out of the wall socket can be pretty nasty. If you have worked with LF radio before particularly in industrial or large malls you should know what I am talking about. Some of the worse devices are fluorescent lamps, metal vapor lamps both low and high pressure, large rectifier stacks and other such goodies. You may have a few of the lamps on your home circuits but most likely none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any (Chinese) switching power supply. Check and stabilize the frequency, check and stabilize and do it again, make sure that the governor is responding fast enough to keep it stable. On 9/24/20 7:08 PM, Chuck Hast wrote: Ahh forgot the G/N bonding, in the industrial environments I worked in, we never saw that one it was caught prior to hotting up the circuit, but indeed home installations are a crap shoot. Indeed the home I bought where I now live was like that I had to make sure the G/N bond was solid as it looked more like an afterthought. Now it is a bazen thought... Thanks for all the background info. -- Regards, Dick Steffens ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
On 9/24/20 7:43 PM, Jason Barnett wrote: The other responses are talking about the correct way to deal with the situation, I'm not as helpful. :) I think the term you are looking for is "Power Conditioner" or "Line Conditioner". Here is the first search result: https://www.beupp.com/generator/power-line-conditioners/ Interesting reading. I'm hoping I can solve the problem without the added expense, but good to know. Thanks. -- Regards, Dick Steffens ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
On 9/24/20 6:16 PM, Mike C. wrote: You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be able to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the generator to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. Turns out to be non-trivial. The generator is a Champion 7500 Watt Dual Fuel. Said adjustment is under a cover, somewhere. The technical bulletin for adjusting it tells what to do, but doesn't include where the adjustment is located. It says, "Note: The governor throttle adjustment screw can be identified with yellow marking paint and a spring around the screw threads to keep it from changing adjustment." That's helpful, but it doesn't say what cover I have to take of to find it. It also says, "Refer to CPETB2050012, voltage adjustment technical bulletin for proper adjustment procedure." I'm still digging to find that bulletin. Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily dial in the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the battery accepts the signal and starts charging. The generator has an "Intelligauge" – Three mode digital meter for displaying running hours, voltage and hertz, so I should be able to watch it while I make the adjustment. -- Regards, Dick Steffens ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
Ben Koenig, Sorry to ask, but you wrote "The obvious racism coming from our current president" which introduced politics to this discussion. Please give some actual examples of this, as there are a lot of false accusations in the political world. Please note that Trump has a number of minorities in his inner circle, received an award given by Jessie Jackson and his policies gave the lowest minority un-employment on record. Of course, it is well known that Biden opposed school busing and was a leader in the 1990s crime bill that jailed many blacks for minor drug offenses. Thanks JK At 07:49 AM 9/25/2020, Ben Koenig wrote: There is a difference between chinese-made and chinese-DESIGNED. Its a known fact that some chinese companys exist to create low quality knock-offs of name brand products in several different industries. This is a nuance that often gets glossed over in casual conversation and affects everything from computers to childrens' toys. I also reject the idea that simply labeling a thing as "chinese" in a negative connotation is racist. These days it takes very little effort to find reliable information concerning human rights violations in that specific country. China needs to be held accountable for the damage they are doing to their citizens, trade partners, and the environment. When talking about facts we can call these "chinese problems" because thats exactly what they are. The obvious racism coming from our current president is an "american problem" and should not be used to justify genocide in China. China is locking Muslims up in concentration camps. While the US is fighting for the lives of black and colored people China decided to go full Nazi. Its a literal holocaust complete with forced labor camps and malformed scientific propoganda. What kind of asshole says we should soften our tone towards Religious GENOCIDE. You must have missed the WW2 memo because this isn't the first time the world has seen this. Because everyone has an opinion, -Ben On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 11:11 PM Chuck Hast wrote: > Tomas, > My experience with switching power supplies has been that if they > are noise makers they are Chinese made. I used to install a lot of > Electronic asset control systems (anti-shoplifting) ; most of these > devices work in the region of around 60 khz. Back when the gas > discharge, fluorescent and halogen lamps were king in the retail > business (lighting in stores) the noisy units were always Chinese > made, 100% That is not to say that they do not produce low noise > units, they do but most of what we ran into even high cost units > had not filtering in the input stage to the switcher. So you have > 60Hz hitting a diode now you have 60 Hz pulses going into a > switcher switching at around 20 Khz, again very little filtering, What > is the strongest harmonic in any nonlinear system? The 3rd, where > did it fall?? about 60Khz (20X3) with side bands every 180hz above > and below the center frequency of the 3rd harmonic out a couple of > Khz each side of the harmonic. If they had just added a FEW capacitors > most of this would not have been an issue. So this noisy hamonic > fell right in the passband of the receivers. These things were not > German (they made them) Italian (they to) nor other sources, they > were Chinese. Sorry if the truth hurts that is the way it is. I have > power supplies here at the house some of the switchers are very > raw, when I find them I go in and add a cap or inductor and get rid > of it. > > Now with the LED lighting they have cleaned up their act to a certain > extent but many of them are still lacking. This is my experience with > these devices. > > Now laser diodes is another story... They do a good job on those. I > have quite a few diode lasers and that is where they come from, in > that case the vendors have taken the time to produce a good product > for the price. Anytime I can pay $40 for a diode that will burn a hole > in a sheetrock wall, I am happy with that diode. When I can get a diode > that will last thousands of hours and put in a cielometer and never see > the thing again I am happy. And these are all Chinese diodes, so the > street runs both ways. > > That is my Heinz 57 varieties view of things. Sorry if I am blunt but I > try to tell what I have found I gave you two of my experiences one bad > one good. Both from the same source area. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:01 AM wrote: > > > On Thu, 2020-09-24 at 21:04 -0500, Chuck Hast wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any > > > (Chinese) switching power supply. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder, without any desire or starting political flame wars, what has > > "Chinese" to do with any of this stuff? > > > > Are there any other power supplies other than the ones Made in China on > > normal market? I cannot remember the last time I saw not Made in China > > ATX/server power supply in retail or enterprise. I
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
There is a difference between chinese-made and chinese-DESIGNED. Its a known fact that some chinese companys exist to create low quality knock-offs of name brand products in several different industries. This is a nuance that often gets glossed over in casual conversation and affects everything from computers to childrens' toys. I also reject the idea that simply labeling a thing as "chinese" in a negative connotation is racist. These days it takes very little effort to find reliable information concerning human rights violations in that specific country. China needs to be held accountable for the damage they are doing to their citizens, trade partners, and the environment. When talking about facts we can call these "chinese problems" because thats exactly what they are. The obvious racism coming from our current president is an "american problem" and should not be used to justify genocide in China. China is locking Muslims up in concentration camps. While the US is fighting for the lives of black and colored people China decided to go full Nazi. Its a literal holocaust complete with forced labor camps and malformed scientific propoganda. What kind of asshole says we should soften our tone towards Religious GENOCIDE. You must have missed the WW2 memo because this isn't the first time the world has seen this. Because everyone has an opinion, -Ben On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 11:11 PM Chuck Hast wrote: > Tomas, > My experience with switching power supplies has been that if they > are noise makers they are Chinese made. I used to install a lot of > Electronic asset control systems (anti-shoplifting) ; most of these > devices work in the region of around 60 khz. Back when the gas > discharge, fluorescent and halogen lamps were king in the retail > business (lighting in stores) the noisy units were always Chinese > made, 100% That is not to say that they do not produce low noise > units, they do but most of what we ran into even high cost units > had not filtering in the input stage to the switcher. So you have > 60Hz hitting a diode now you have 60 Hz pulses going into a > switcher switching at around 20 Khz, again very little filtering, What > is the strongest harmonic in any nonlinear system? The 3rd, where > did it fall?? about 60Khz (20X3) with side bands every 180hz above > and below the center frequency of the 3rd harmonic out a couple of > Khz each side of the harmonic. If they had just added a FEW capacitors > most of this would not have been an issue. So this noisy hamonic > fell right in the passband of the receivers. These things were not > German (they made them) Italian (they to) nor other sources, they > were Chinese. Sorry if the truth hurts that is the way it is. I have > power supplies here at the house some of the switchers are very > raw, when I find them I go in and add a cap or inductor and get rid > of it. > > Now with the LED lighting they have cleaned up their act to a certain > extent but many of them are still lacking. This is my experience with > these devices. > > Now laser diodes is another story... They do a good job on those. I > have quite a few diode lasers and that is where they come from, in > that case the vendors have taken the time to produce a good product > for the price. Anytime I can pay $40 for a diode that will burn a hole > in a sheetrock wall, I am happy with that diode. When I can get a diode > that will last thousands of hours and put in a cielometer and never see > the thing again I am happy. And these are all Chinese diodes, so the > street runs both ways. > > That is my Heinz 57 varieties view of things. Sorry if I am blunt but I > try to tell what I have found I gave you two of my experiences one bad > one good. Both from the same source area. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:01 AM wrote: > > > On Thu, 2020-09-24 at 21:04 -0500, Chuck Hast wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any > > > (Chinese) switching power supply. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder, without any desire or starting political flame wars, what has > > "Chinese" to do with any of this stuff? > > > > Are there any other power supplies other than the ones Made in China on > > normal market? I cannot remember the last time I saw not Made in China > > ATX/server power supply in retail or enterprise. I guess ASUS, FoxCon, > > and other Taiwanese OEMs started as successful switching power > > supply manufactures in the 80s, they were not "Chinese", but by the end > > of 90s it is all Made in China AFAIK - so - what are you comparing > > those Chinese power supply with? > > > > I do not believe that you meant to spark a pogrom, riot or something > > ... - Still - Do we really need more of this kind of messaging, > > especially these days. > > > > Just saying ... > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > >
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
Tomas, My experience with switching power supplies has been that if they are noise makers they are Chinese made. I used to install a lot of Electronic asset control systems (anti-shoplifting) ; most of these devices work in the region of around 60 khz. Back when the gas discharge, fluorescent and halogen lamps were king in the retail business (lighting in stores) the noisy units were always Chinese made, 100% That is not to say that they do not produce low noise units, they do but most of what we ran into even high cost units had not filtering in the input stage to the switcher. So you have 60Hz hitting a diode now you have 60 Hz pulses going into a switcher switching at around 20 Khz, again very little filtering, What is the strongest harmonic in any nonlinear system? The 3rd, where did it fall?? about 60Khz (20X3) with side bands every 180hz above and below the center frequency of the 3rd harmonic out a couple of Khz each side of the harmonic. If they had just added a FEW capacitors most of this would not have been an issue. So this noisy hamonic fell right in the passband of the receivers. These things were not German (they made them) Italian (they to) nor other sources, they were Chinese. Sorry if the truth hurts that is the way it is. I have power supplies here at the house some of the switchers are very raw, when I find them I go in and add a cap or inductor and get rid of it. Now with the LED lighting they have cleaned up their act to a certain extent but many of them are still lacking. This is my experience with these devices. Now laser diodes is another story... They do a good job on those. I have quite a few diode lasers and that is where they come from, in that case the vendors have taken the time to produce a good product for the price. Anytime I can pay $40 for a diode that will burn a hole in a sheetrock wall, I am happy with that diode. When I can get a diode that will last thousands of hours and put in a cielometer and never see the thing again I am happy. And these are all Chinese diodes, so the street runs both ways. That is my Heinz 57 varieties view of things. Sorry if I am blunt but I try to tell what I have found I gave you two of my experiences one bad one good. Both from the same source area. On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 12:01 AM wrote: > On Thu, 2020-09-24 at 21:04 -0500, Chuck Hast wrote: > > > > > > > none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any > > (Chinese) switching power supply. > > > > > > I wonder, without any desire or starting political flame wars, what has > "Chinese" to do with any of this stuff? > > Are there any other power supplies other than the ones Made in China on > normal market? I cannot remember the last time I saw not Made in China > ATX/server power supply in retail or enterprise. I guess ASUS, FoxCon, > and other Taiwanese OEMs started as successful switching power > supply manufactures in the 80s, they were not "Chinese", but by the end > of 90s it is all Made in China AFAIK - so - what are you comparing > those Chinese power supply with? > > I do not believe that you meant to spark a pogrom, riot or something > ... - Still - Do we really need more of this kind of messaging, > especially these days. > > Just saying ... > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > -- Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Ph 4:13 KJV Todo lo puedo en Cristo que me fortalece. Fil 4:13 RVR1960 ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
On Thu, 2020-09-24 at 21:04 -0500, Chuck Hast wrote: > > > none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any > (Chinese) switching power supply. > > I wonder, without any desire or starting political flame wars, what has "Chinese" to do with any of this stuff? Are there any other power supplies other than the ones Made in China on normal market? I cannot remember the last time I saw not Made in China ATX/server power supply in retail or enterprise. I guess ASUS, FoxCon, and other Taiwanese OEMs started as successful switching power supply manufactures in the 80s, they were not "Chinese", but by the end of 90s it is all Made in China AFAIK - so - what are you comparing those Chinese power supply with? I do not believe that you meant to spark a pogrom, riot or something ... - Still - Do we really need more of this kind of messaging, especially these days. Just saying ... ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
Yes, I've also run into the G/N bonding inside wiring issue before. The error mssg on the UPS was "wiring fault". In that case moving the UPS to another outlet solved the problem as the wiring issue was only on the outlet. Tripplite does recommend a specific UPS for use with a generator. It's called an "on-line, double conversion UPS." So that also might be something worth looking into. On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 7:08 PM Chuck Hast wrote: > Ahh forgot the G/N bonding, in the industrial environments I > worked in, we never saw that one it was caught prior to hotting > up the circuit, but indeed home installations are a crap shoot. > > Indeed the home I bought where I now live was like that I had > to make sure the G/N bond was solid as it looked more like an > afterthought. Now it is a bazen thought... > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:54 PM Michael Barnes > wrote: > > > You need to verify the wiring from your generator through the transfer > > panel. Depending on how it is configured, it is possible the ground does > > not make it all the way through when on generator. This can easily be > > checked with one of those 3 light circuit testers. I have run into this > in > > the field using generators. In many generators, the ground and neutral > are > > not bonded. A UPS will see this as a fault and not accept the power. > > > > For a building, a transfer panel may be wired a couple of different ways. > > For a large "whole house" system, the transfer panel simply switches > > between commercial power and a big generator prior to the main service > > panel. In that case, the ground-neutral bond takes place in the service > > panel and all should be good. In some cases, however, the generator is > not > > big enough for the whole house. In those situations, there will be a sub > > panel for the "priority" circuits. The transfer switch then toggles > between > > the feed from the main service panel and the generator. Sometimes, the > > transfer panel is wired incorrectly and does not provide the G-N bond > when > > on the generator. > > > > Most modern generators are pretty well regulated, so the UPS rejecting > due > > to frequency or voltage is not likely. (Unless it is a cheapo Harbor > > Freight or similar generator.) > > > > Working a lot of field communications activity and back-up power for > > critical sites, I have run into this quite often. > > > > Check the wiring before worrying about power conditioners. > > > > My $.0002, > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 18:16 Mike C. wrote: > > > > > You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be > > able > > > to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the > > generator > > > to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. > > > > > > Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily > dial > > in > > > the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the > > > battery accepts the signal and starts charging. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens > > > wrote: > > > > > > > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > > > > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > > > > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup > units > > > > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a > stable > > > > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some > generators, > > > > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and > the > > > > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > > > > > > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > > > > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting > > 12v > > > > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, > but I > > > > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > > > > suitable clue stick. > > > > > > > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > > > > > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > > > > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Dick Steffens > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > PLUG mailing list > > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > > > ___ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG mailing list > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > -- > > Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- > I can do all things through
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
The other responses are talking about the correct way to deal with the situation, I'm not as helpful. :) I think the term you are looking for is "Power Conditioner" or "Line Conditioner". Here is the first search result: https://www.beupp.com/generator/power-line-conditioners/ On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 7:08 PM Chuck Hast wrote: > Ahh forgot the G/N bonding, in the industrial environments I > worked in, we never saw that one it was caught prior to hotting > up the circuit, but indeed home installations are a crap shoot. > > Indeed the home I bought where I now live was like that I had > to make sure the G/N bond was solid as it looked more like an > afterthought. Now it is a bazen thought... > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:54 PM Michael Barnes > wrote: > > > You need to verify the wiring from your generator through the transfer > > panel. Depending on how it is configured, it is possible the ground does > > not make it all the way through when on generator. This can easily be > > checked with one of those 3 light circuit testers. I have run into this > in > > the field using generators. In many generators, the ground and neutral > are > > not bonded. A UPS will see this as a fault and not accept the power. > > > > For a building, a transfer panel may be wired a couple of different ways. > > For a large "whole house" system, the transfer panel simply switches > > between commercial power and a big generator prior to the main service > > panel. In that case, the ground-neutral bond takes place in the service > > panel and all should be good. In some cases, however, the generator is > not > > big enough for the whole house. In those situations, there will be a sub > > panel for the "priority" circuits. The transfer switch then toggles > between > > the feed from the main service panel and the generator. Sometimes, the > > transfer panel is wired incorrectly and does not provide the G-N bond > when > > on the generator. > > > > Most modern generators are pretty well regulated, so the UPS rejecting > due > > to frequency or voltage is not likely. (Unless it is a cheapo Harbor > > Freight or similar generator.) > > > > Working a lot of field communications activity and back-up power for > > critical sites, I have run into this quite often. > > > > Check the wiring before worrying about power conditioners. > > > > My $.0002, > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 18:16 Mike C. wrote: > > > > > You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be > > able > > > to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the > > generator > > > to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. > > > > > > Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily > dial > > in > > > the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the > > > battery accepts the signal and starts charging. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens > > > wrote: > > > > > > > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > > > > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > > > > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup > units > > > > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a > stable > > > > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some > generators, > > > > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and > the > > > > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > > > > > > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > > > > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting > > 12v > > > > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, > but I > > > > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > > > > suitable clue stick. > > > > > > > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > > > > > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > > > > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Dick Steffens > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > > PLUG mailing list > > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > > > ___ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG mailing list > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > -- > > Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- > I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. > Ph 4:13 KJV > Todo lo puedo en Cristo que me fortalece. > Fil 4:13 RVR1960 >
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
Ahh forgot the G/N bonding, in the industrial environments I worked in, we never saw that one it was caught prior to hotting up the circuit, but indeed home installations are a crap shoot. Indeed the home I bought where I now live was like that I had to make sure the G/N bond was solid as it looked more like an afterthought. Now it is a bazen thought... On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:54 PM Michael Barnes wrote: > You need to verify the wiring from your generator through the transfer > panel. Depending on how it is configured, it is possible the ground does > not make it all the way through when on generator. This can easily be > checked with one of those 3 light circuit testers. I have run into this in > the field using generators. In many generators, the ground and neutral are > not bonded. A UPS will see this as a fault and not accept the power. > > For a building, a transfer panel may be wired a couple of different ways. > For a large "whole house" system, the transfer panel simply switches > between commercial power and a big generator prior to the main service > panel. In that case, the ground-neutral bond takes place in the service > panel and all should be good. In some cases, however, the generator is not > big enough for the whole house. In those situations, there will be a sub > panel for the "priority" circuits. The transfer switch then toggles between > the feed from the main service panel and the generator. Sometimes, the > transfer panel is wired incorrectly and does not provide the G-N bond when > on the generator. > > Most modern generators are pretty well regulated, so the UPS rejecting due > to frequency or voltage is not likely. (Unless it is a cheapo Harbor > Freight or similar generator.) > > Working a lot of field communications activity and back-up power for > critical sites, I have run into this quite often. > > Check the wiring before worrying about power conditioners. > > My $.0002, > > Michael > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 18:16 Mike C. wrote: > > > You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be > able > > to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the > generator > > to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. > > > > Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily dial > in > > the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the > > battery accepts the signal and starts charging. > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens > > wrote: > > > > > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > > > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > > > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup units > > > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a stable > > > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some generators, > > > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and the > > > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > > > > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > > > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting > 12v > > > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, but I > > > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > > > suitable clue stick. > > > > > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > > > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Dick Steffens > > > > > > ___ > > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > > PLUG mailing list > > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > -- Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Ph 4:13 KJV Todo lo puedo en Cristo que me fortalece. Fil 4:13 RVR1960 ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
Same here, your gen set may need a few minutes to stabilize but it should settle on 60Hz and since you do not have a large number of inductors and capacitors on the line it should be fairly clean. You can find multimeters that will measure low frequency signals and of course 60hz is down there. This page from Amazon brings up a nice selection of both multi- meters and even digital panel meters: https://www.amazon.com/Frequency-Meter/s?k=Frequency+Meter Unless you have something weird in your gen set you should be getting pretty nice (probably better than PGE) sine waves out of your gen set. Of course there could be something wrong with the governor and it is not keeping tight control on the machine. The meter will tell you that as you cycle loads on and off of the machine. The stuff coming out of the wall socket can be pretty nasty. If you have worked with LF radio before particularly in industrial or large malls you should know what I am talking about. Some of the worse devices are fluorescent lamps, metal vapor lamps both low and high pressure, large rectifier stacks and other such goodies. You may have a few of the lamps on your home circuits but most likely none of the others. Computer PSU's can be noisy also as can any (Chinese) switching power supply. Check and stabilize the frequency, check and stabilize and do it again, make sure that the governor is responding fast enough to keep it stable. On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:16 PM Mike C. wrote: > You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be able > to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the generator > to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. > > Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily dial in > the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the > battery accepts the signal and starts charging. > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens > wrote: > > > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup units > > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a stable > > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some generators, > > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and the > > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting 12v > > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, but I > > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > > suitable clue stick. > > > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > > > and > > > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Dick Steffens > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > -- Chuck Hast -- KP4DJT -- I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Ph 4:13 KJV Todo lo puedo en Cristo que me fortalece. Fil 4:13 RVR1960 ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
You need to verify the wiring from your generator through the transfer panel. Depending on how it is configured, it is possible the ground does not make it all the way through when on generator. This can easily be checked with one of those 3 light circuit testers. I have run into this in the field using generators. In many generators, the ground and neutral are not bonded. A UPS will see this as a fault and not accept the power. For a building, a transfer panel may be wired a couple of different ways. For a large "whole house" system, the transfer panel simply switches between commercial power and a big generator prior to the main service panel. In that case, the ground-neutral bond takes place in the service panel and all should be good. In some cases, however, the generator is not big enough for the whole house. In those situations, there will be a sub panel for the "priority" circuits. The transfer switch then toggles between the feed from the main service panel and the generator. Sometimes, the transfer panel is wired incorrectly and does not provide the G-N bond when on the generator. Most modern generators are pretty well regulated, so the UPS rejecting due to frequency or voltage is not likely. (Unless it is a cheapo Harbor Freight or similar generator.) Working a lot of field communications activity and back-up power for critical sites, I have run into this quite often. Check the wiring before worrying about power conditioners. My $.0002, Michael On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 18:16 Mike C. wrote: > You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be able > to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the generator > to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. > > Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily dial in > the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the > battery accepts the signal and starts charging. > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens > wrote: > > > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup units > > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a stable > > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some generators, > > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and the > > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting 12v > > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, but I > > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > > suitable clue stick. > > > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > > > and > > > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Dick Steffens > > > > ___ > > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Power Conditioner
You shouldn't have to buy anything to fix this problem. You should be able to accomplish this by adjusting the governor / idle speed of the generator to the rpm that produces a stable 60 hz signal. Ideally, you'd have a cheap multimeter to use to quickly and easily dial in the rpm but if not, you could just try playing around with it until the battery accepts the signal and starts charging. On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 5:56 PM Dick Steffens wrote: > During the fire event last week we were without PGE power a couple of > times. We have a generator connected to the house through a transfer > panel which worked fine for everything except the battery backup units > we have for our computers. They rejected the power that wasn't a stable > 60 Hz. I have now heard that this is not uncommon with some generators, > and that there are devices one can use between the wall outlet and the > battery backup to maintain clean power. > > Searching for these online is proving to be challenging. Some people > call them inverters. The hits I get for inverters are for converting 12v > to 120v. I tried power conditioner. That seems to be what I need, but I > call upon the collected wisdom of this group for confirmation, or a > suitable clue stick. > > The two search hits I looked at are: > > https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=120+volt+line+conditioner > > and > > > https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Conditioner-Regulation-LS606M/dp/B6B83G > > Further thoughts appreciated. > > -- > Regards, > > Dick Steffens > > ___ > PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > ___ PLUG: https://pdxlinux.org PLUG mailing list PLUG@pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
