Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
On 10 Sep 2009, at 13:14, Charles Curley wrote: Dear Linux Geeks: You drive me crazy. Though I am being facetious, I am also being practical. Please don’t write me and tell me how great Linux is, why I should run it, and why it is libertarian, just because I published this article on PC vs Mac. Fact is, every single time I have ever mentioned something about Mac or PCs or NetBooks, in a blog post or article, because I thought it was an interesting point, Linux Heads jump right on the ‘convert-her’ bandwagon, and so I get tons of email from Linux enthusiasts/hobbyists telling me that Linux is my only means to technology heaven. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. LOL, she does make some good points. Entertaining read. Thanks. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
How to *NOT* sell Linux
Dear Linux Geeks: You drive me crazy. Though I am being facetious, I am also being practical. Please don’t write me and tell me how great Linux is, why I should run it, and why it is libertarian, just because I published this article on PC vs Mac. Fact is, every single time I have ever mentioned something about Mac or PCs or NetBooks, in a blog post or article, because I thought it was an interesting point, Linux Heads jump right on the ‘convert-her’ bandwagon, and so I get tons of email from Linux enthusiasts/hobbyists telling me that Linux is my only means to technology heaven. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. -- Charles Curley /\ASCII Ribbon Campaign Looking for fine software \ /Respect for open standards and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email http://www.charlescurley.com/ \No M$ Word docs in email Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Charles Curley charlescur...@charlescurley.com wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. Yes they are very good points, however her points are based on false assumptions. She assumes that in order to use Linux she needs to become an expert, that it must become her new hobby. It doesn't. There is an initial investment in learning to get to the point she is at now with Windows, but it is not excessively time consuming, or hobby like. And as far as hiring a Linux butler, she can just fire her Windows butler for the money. If she is the Windows butler, she just needs to make that initial small investment in learning. Large profits will come from this small investment. I don't mind if people choose not to make that investment. Investing in anything can be scary and takes initiative. Many people are lazy. I take issue with her false assumptions. Her defense is either dishonest or ignorant. Either way it becomes invalid. --lonnie /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
I concur with Lonnie: I don't mind if people choose not to make that investment. Investing in anything can be scary and takes initiative. Many people are lazy. I take issue with her false assumptions. Her defense is either dishonest or ignorant. Either way it becomes invalid. These days, Linux distros have install processes that are at least as simple and painless as Windows. I'm a Kubuntu user myself, and when I need to build a new system I just slip in the install CD, answer a few simple questions like what timezone I'm in and what language I prefer, and in 15 minutes the system is up and running. I should also mention that the system is actually USEFUL, too. It has OpenOffice and a mail client and a PDF reader and other general applications that an average desktop user would need. Windows, on the other hand, requires all of that stuff to be installed separately. Moreover, I've found that Linux distros detect and correctly configure all of my peripherals flawlessly. Sound card, video card, monitor, scanner, USB drives, etc. With Windows it seems like I always have to track down some obscure driver to get my display to work. And heaven help me if the network card isn't recognized, because it means I have to go to another computer, find it, download it, stick it on a USB drive, and then copy it to the Windows box. Good times. In short, I'd argue that you no longer need to be a geek or a hacker to use Linux in a general office environment. The reason people don't do it en masse is simple inertia. They've used Windows for ten years and they're used to it. They may not even LIKE it, but it's hard to overcome the indoctrination. $0.02, Jeff /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Lonnie Olson li...@kittypee.com wrote: Yes they are very good points, however her points are based on false assumptions. She assumes that in order to use Linux she needs to become an expert, that it must become her new hobby. It doesn't. There is an initial investment in learning to get to the point she is at now with Windows, but it is not excessively time consuming, or hobby like. And as far as hiring a Linux butler, she can just fire her Windows butler for the money. If she is the Windows butler, she just needs to make that initial small investment in learning. Large profits will come from this small investment. I don't mind if people choose not to make that investment. Investing in anything can be scary and takes initiative. Many people are lazy. I take issue with her false assumptions. Her defense is either dishonest or ignorant. Either way it becomes invalid. --lonnie Dido. I agree that she has good points, and I also agree that she is blowing the 'must be an expert geek to use it' thing way out of proportion. That being said, I do think that Linux has to be 100% problem free for a non-technical converts to accept it. Is Windows 100% problem free? Heck no, but they aren't the underdog. I think that Linux adoption will come in the form of Android, Palm Pre, Moblin and other fully supported platforms. These platforms lock down Linux, and are often tied to particular hardware, and other badness. But it nonetheless addresses the points the good lady makes. Linux needs to be as easy and as compelling as an iPhone or forget it. -Bryan /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
Lonnie Olson li...@kittypee.com writes: On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Charles Curley charlescur...@charlescurley.com wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. Yes they are very good points, however her points are based on false assumptions. She assumes that in order to use Linux she needs to become an expert, that it must become her new hobby. It doesn't. There is an initial investment in learning to get to the point she is at now with Windows, but it is not excessively time consuming, or hobby like. And as far as hiring a Linux butler, she can just fire her Windows butler for the money. If she is the Windows butler, she just needs to make that initial small investment in learning. Large profits will come from this small investment. I don't mind if people choose not to make that investment. Investing in anything can be scary and takes initiative. Many people are lazy. I take issue with her false assumptions. Her defense is either dishonest or ignorant. Either way it becomes invalid. I take it you didn't follow the link to the article she originally wrote, to which the Linux zealots were responding. In it, she explains how she ditched her Windows machines when the extended warranties she bought for them became worthless due to companies going out of business. She talks about how she bought a Mac and pays $99/yr for a one-on-one service she can use to get training on how to use her Mac apps, and how the thing she cares about most is the service she gets along with the computer. Now, tell me again how Linux would work better for her? She's clearly not worried about saving trivial amounts of money, she's worried about getting what she wants to do done with the least amount of time invested. Why is it 'lazy' that she chooses to invest her time into bicycling instead of learning Linux? How does Linux enable one to write better libertarian rants than a Mac does? Where will the 'large profits' for investing time into Linux show up when she clearly doesn't value time spent tinkering with her computer? Someone is making false assumptions and dishonest or ignorant defenses here, and it's not the author of the article. --Levi /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. My solution to her dilemma: I use OpenVPN and x11vnc to be the household Linux butler for my extended family. It works out quite well and doesn't consume much of my time. Shane /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
The entire post is focused around her decision not to care enough about Linux to invest some medial time to create a foundation for her opinions. All I see in this is someone saying they don't care in many different ways. I think it's the longest post I've read in some time where someone should just say I don't care about Linux, please stop telling me to look into it. -Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.orgwrote: Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. My solution to her dilemma: I use OpenVPN and x11vnc to be the household Linux butler for my extended family. It works out quite well and doesn't consume much of my time. Shane /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Samuel Goldwynhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html - I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
I read it as Quit harassing me to use your favorite OS. I have something I like that doesn't take significant time to do what I want. That way I can use that time on more important things (to her). Does she care about linux in particular? No, she cares about doing other things that are more important to her. And personally, I figure that sending emails to tell someone why they are a lazy bonehead for not realizing how great linux is may be a terrible way to change someone's opinion. And lest we think that's a bit over the top, I've seen lazy and doubts about her integrity in this email chain. Not the best selling position that I've ever seen. Jason On Sep 10, 2009, at 3:06 PM, William Attwood wrote: The entire post is focused around her decision not to care enough about Linux to invest some medial time to create a foundation for her opinions. All I see in this is someone saying they don't care in many different ways. I think it's the longest post I've read in some time where someone should just say I don't care about Linux, please stop telling me to look into it. -Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.orgwrote: Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. My solution to her dilemma: I use OpenVPN and x11vnc to be the household Linux butler for my extended family. It works out quite well and doesn't consume much of my time. Shane /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Samuel Goldwynhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html - I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
Hey Jason-- I'm not sure if your focus was on my e-mail. In case it was, I didn't once call her lazy. We prioritize things by the amount we care about them. I agree that she stated she had more important things to focus on than learning about Linux. I took that and stated she didn't feel Linux was important, IE, she doesn't care enough about it. Is there an attempt, here, to change her mind, or are we just flaming? --Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jason Wood ja...@jwnetworkconsulting.comwrote: I read it as Quit harassing me to use your favorite OS. I have something I like that doesn't take significant time to do what I want. That way I can use that time on more important things (to her). Does she care about linux in particular? No, she cares about doing other things that are more important to her. And personally, I figure that sending emails to tell someone why they are a lazy bonehead for not realizing how great linux is may be a terrible way to change someone's opinion. And lest we think that's a bit over the top, I've seen lazy and doubts about her integrity in this email chain. Not the best selling position that I've ever seen. Jason On Sep 10, 2009, at 3:06 PM, William Attwood wrote: The entire post is focused around her decision not to care enough about Linux to invest some medial time to create a foundation for her opinions. All I see in this is someone saying they don't care in many different ways. I think it's the longest post I've read in some time where someone should just say I don't care about Linux, please stop telling me to look into it. -Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.orgwrote: Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. My solution to her dilemma: I use OpenVPN and x11vnc to be the household Linux butler for my extended family. It works out quite well and doesn't consume much of my time. Shane /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Samuel Goldwyn http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html - I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Ted Turner http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html - Sports is like a war without the killing. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
On Thursday 10 September 2009 13:14:48 Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. There are parts of this letter that made me want to go back and read Neal Stephenson's book/essay In the beginning... was the command line. It's dated, but still quite relevant: http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.shtml -- Doran L. Fozz Barton f...@iodynamics.com Open-source developer, sysadmin, consultant, and all-around geeky dude You Are The Young And The Hopeless. -- Seen on a t-shirt in Tokyo. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
Will, My initial comment about how I read the email was in response to your email. However, The second part was referencing some of the emails that I read earlier in the chain and I probably should have made that clearer. Sorry about that. I'll admit that the emails earlier in the chain touched on a nerve with me and I got a bit irritated. I'll try to keep it a bit calmer next time. So on that note, I'll pipe back down and get back to work. Jason On Sep 10, 2009, at 3:43 PM, William Attwood wrote: Hey Jason-- I'm not sure if your focus was on my e-mail. In case it was, I didn't once call her lazy. We prioritize things by the amount we care about them. I agree that she stated she had more important things to focus on than learning about Linux. I took that and stated she didn't feel Linux was important, IE, she doesn't care enough about it. Is there an attempt, here, to change her mind, or are we just flaming? --Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jason Wood ja...@jwnetworkconsulting.comwrote: I read it as Quit harassing me to use your favorite OS. I have something I like that doesn't take significant time to do what I want. That way I can use that time on more important things (to her). Does she care about linux in particular? No, she cares about doing other things that are more important to her. And personally, I figure that sending emails to tell someone why they are a lazy bonehead for not realizing how great linux is may be a terrible way to change someone's opinion. And lest we think that's a bit over the top, I've seen lazy and doubts about her integrity in this email chain. Not the best selling position that I've ever seen. Jason On Sep 10, 2009, at 3:06 PM, William Attwood wrote: The entire post is focused around her decision not to care enough about Linux to invest some medial time to create a foundation for her opinions. All I see in this is someone saying they don't care in many different ways. I think it's the longest post I've read in some time where someone should just say I don't care about Linux, please stop telling me to look into it. -Will On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.orgwrote: Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. My solution to her dilemma: I use OpenVPN and x11vnc to be the household Linux butler for my extended family. It works out quite well and doesn't consume much of my time. Shane /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Samuel Goldwyn http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_goldwyn.html - I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ -- Take care, William Attwood Idea Extraordinaire wattw...@gmail.com Ted Turner http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_turner.html - Sports is like a war without the killing. /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */ /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
Doran L. Barton f...@iodynamics.com writes: On Thursday 10 September 2009 13:14:48 Charles Curley wrote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.html The lady makes some very good points. There are parts of this letter that made me want to go back and read Neal Stephenson's book/essay In the beginning... was the command line. It's dated, but still quite relevant: Well, the author, as of 2003, said in his 'Juvenilia' page that it was badly obsolete and probably needs a thorough revision. He also noted that, at that point, he had been using Mac OS X almost exclusively for a couple of years. Sounds like he came to the same conclusion as the writer of the original article. You might be interested in this annotated response to the essay: http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/commandline/index.html It's also getting old, but I agree with his conclusion at the end. --Levi /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
Re: How to *NOT* sell Linux
On Thursday 10 September 2009 16:20:41 Levi Pearson wrote: Well, the author, as of 2003, said in his 'Juvenilia' page that it was badly obsolete and probably needs a thorough revision. He also noted that, at that point, he had been using Mac OS X almost exclusively for a couple of years. Sounds like he came to the same conclusion as the writer of the original article. You might be interested in this annotated response to the essay: http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/commandline/index.html It's also getting old, but I agree with his conclusion at the end. Thanks for that update, Levi. I'm not surprised at all that he went to OS X considering his background. -- f...@iodynamics.com is Doran L. Fozz Barton I got knife scars more than the number of your leg's hair! -- English film subtitle seen in Hong Kong /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
