Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
I can think of one right now. Plug in a usb storage device and the little usb icon appears at the bottom of the screen. Click on it and get the option to open in the file manager. I get a malformed url error. There are other ways to access the device. On 09/04/2018 03:12 PM, Brian Cluff wrote: On 09/03/2018 10:50 PM, Jim wrote: I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer from windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used Kubuntu 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were too many bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are some annoying bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. While I agree that 16.04 was one of Kubuntu's worst releases, I've found 18.04 to be one of it's very best based on the few dozen systems I've installed it on so far. I've found little to no bugs with it. What sort of "annoying bugs" are you running into? Brian Cluff --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 09/04/2018 07:25 PM, Matthew Crews wrote: There are other minor quirks with Nvidia graphics that are irritating to work with, however for the purposes of this email thread, I am not advocating any specific graphics vendor except when discussing Plasma Desktop. I was specifically talking about my experiences with plasma desktop been running KDE since the 90s. Brian Cluff --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 9/4/18 7:12 PM, Brian Cluff wrote: > On 09/04/2018 06:27 PM, Matthew Crews wrote: >> as long as you stick with AMD or Intel graphics >> drivers (Nvidia graphics don't play nice with it, or else I would be >> using it too). > > I've had exactly the opposite experience with nvidia vs amd... unless > you are speaking about only using the open source drivers, then yes, amd > works better, but if you use the closed source drivers then I've found > nvidia to be the card that just plain works for everything. What I meant is that Nvidia closed source drivers and Plasma Desktop do not play nice together. Unless there is a recent fix that I'm not aware of. I had terrible screen rendering issues on Plasma 5.12 and Nvidia closed source drivers. No such screen tearing was present when I used Gnome, XFCE, or any other DE. There are other minor quirks with Nvidia graphics that are irritating to work with, however for the purposes of this email thread, I am not advocating any specific graphics vendor except when discussing Plasma Desktop. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 09/04/2018 06:27 PM, Matthew Crews wrote: as long as you stick with AMD or Intel graphics drivers (Nvidia graphics don't play nice with it, or else I would be using it too). I've had exactly the opposite experience with nvidia vs amd... unless you are speaking about only using the open source drivers, then yes, amd works better, but if you use the closed source drivers then I've found nvidia to be the card that just plain works for everything. I just recently bought a laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 580 on board and while the graphics worked fine right out of the box it was a complete nightmare getting a working openCL compute environment. I've only recently got it working, so up until about a week about I had been using my 5 year old laptop instead because it had nvidia and just worked, even though I've had the new computer for 4 months. For Intel drivers I whole heatedly agree, they are great right out of the box and just work, but intel graphics are quite a bit slower. Brian Cluff --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 9/3/18 10:50 PM, Jim wrote: > I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer from > windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used Kubuntu > 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were too many > bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are some annoying > bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. > > I saw on here recently that someone said they use the stable branch of > Debian. I'm looking for some advice. Should I stay with Kubuntu or > switch to Debian 9 stable? If you have an opinion, please tell why you > favor one over the other. I'm one of those guys that uses Debian Stable over Ubuntu. The main reason is because Debian adheres to the idea of free software much tighter than Ubuntu. Debian does offer some non-free software in the repositories, but the main ones of note are graphics card drivers, CPU microcode updates, and other device drivers (such as ethernet and wifi). Those annoying bugs that you have to deal with on Kubuntu, and really all versions of Ubuntu, is because Ubuntu bases itself off of the Sid (unstable) branch of Debian, plus the Ubuntu things that are placed on top. Whatever software is available in Sid when it's time to release the latest Ubuntu, thats what Ubuntu gets, bugs be damned. Debian Stable doesn't release a new version until it is good and ready, and as many bugs are ironed out as possible. The flip side is that Ubuntu will tend to have newer packages than Debian. Debian is still using Gnome 3.22, Plasma 5.8, and XFCE 4.12, whereas Ubuntu is using Gnome 3.28, Plasma 5.12, and XFCE 4.13 (the development branch of 4.14), and those versions will be bumped up with the 18.10 release next month. Also, BECAUSE Debian ships with older packages, it can be (literally) years before some bugs are fixed. If you have your heart set on the latest versions of Plasma, I would probably stick with Kubuntu or KDE Neon. Ubuntu is also designed to be a bit more user friendly than Debian. For my in-laws I gave them one of the Ubuntu spins, because they are much easier for my inlaws to self-administer than Debian. They have a phobia from the command line, and Ubuntu is just friendly enough where they don't need to open the terminal for any reason. Peoples complain about software availability in Debian versus other distros, but Debian supports both Snaps and Flatpaks, and you can usually find the software you are looking for in either of those systems. Flatpak will have the latest version of LibreOffice and Kdenlive, for example. One other thing: as someone else pointed out, a lot of third party software (not available in the repos, or as a flatpak or snap) assume you are using Ubuntu. Its hit or miss whether it will work in Debian, and even if it does, it can be difficult to force it to work. Now, are these good reasons to switch from Kubuntu to Debian? No. Kubuntu 18.04 is the best Kubuntu in half a decade. Its leaps and bounds better than Kubuntu 14.04, 16.04, and even the ancient 12.04 when it was still using KDE4. Plasma 5.12 (which is what Kubuntu uses) is what I would call a production ready desktop environment, and has been great from my experience, as long as you stick with AMD or Intel graphics drivers (Nvidia graphics don't play nice with it, or else I would be using it too). If you switched to Debian Stable, and you want to continue to use KDE, you will be using the unsupported KDE 5.8 (5.12 still has upstream support). If you are happy enough with Kubuntu, keep plugging along with it, or switch to KDE Neon (after they switch their base to Ubuntu 18.04 anyway). Be sure to file bug reports as you come across bugs. They will be fixed with time. -Matt --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
If you import email via any number of means into gmail or app in any way, you're feeding the beast despite what they say. You can configure gmail not to scrape users from email contacts, and I do this default, but doesn't mean they're not in their database still for "private" use by google. Agree on k-9 mail app with non-google email services (prior godaddy), or the commercial aquamail to replace k-9 as a better option, both keep things separated well enough, though who knows what google does with that app data still however internal to the phone. I moved to google domains/gsuite email after my last work stint at godaddy, and find things are much better despite selling my soul entirely to them. Usually, this week other reasons have me hating google. There is little privacy left, and google's long known everything about me anyways, so I'll trust them over say, microsoft o365 or apple services. -mb On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 7:25 PM, Victor Odhner wrote: > I use Google for the calendar, but make only occasional use of GMail. > > I have this little game of seeing how much I can avoid handing over to > Google. > So on my old phone, I only synchronized my calendar items with Google. > I avoided synching everything else, there was no need. > > That was in the not-evil days: now it seems to be sync all or nothing. > > *Q: If I’m using a different mail client for non-Google email, will a sync > with Google slurp up all my contacts anyway?* > > I’m not about to replace my OS, but just curious: > Are there versions of Android that don’t feed the Beast? > > Thanks, > Victor > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
I use K-9 mail ("Fetch mail", get it?), and as far as I know it knows nothing
about GMAIL.
But then, I doubt you were talking about Android Phone apps :-)
Google mail ('gmail') now (seems to) refuses to work with Mozilla mail (or
whatever its called these days) unless you turn on the 'allow insecure apps'
flag, which I'm unwilling to do. So I'd be a bit surprised, if you don't tell
Mozilla about gmail, that gmail will know about your Mozilla.
But, I lost my tin hat a while back...
-Original Message-
From: PLUG-discuss [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.phxlinux.org] On Behalf
Of Matt Graham
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 1:27 PM
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
On 2018-09-03 19:25, Victor Odhner wrote:
> So on my old phone, I only synchronized my calendar items with Google.
> I avoided synching everything else, there was no need.
> That was in the not-evil days: now it seems to be sync all or nothing.
>
> Q: IF I’M USING A DIFFERENT MAIL CLIENT FOR NON-GOOGLE EMAIL, WILL A
> SYNC WITH GOOGLE SLURP UP ALL MY CONTACTS ANYWAY?
I think this would depend on the mail client. Which one are you using?
There's also the approach where you back up your contacts in your mail
client, delete them all, sync with evil google, then restore the
backed-up contacts in your client. This is probably too clumsy for
regular use though.
> I’m not about to replace my OS, but just curious:
> Are there versions of Android that don’t feed the Beast?
AOSP? LineageOS? These don't talk to google nearly as much. How
usable they would be depends a lot on whatever it is you want to do with
your phone. It's not immediately obvious whether a phone with LineageOS
on it can be used to make and receive phone calls and SMS messages using
the carrier-given phone#, for instance.
--
Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress
There is no Darkness in Eternity
But only Light too dim for us to see.
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Re: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
On Mon, 2018-09-03 at 19:25 -0700, Victor Odhner wrote:
> I use Google for the calendar, but make only occasional use of GMail.
>
> I have this little game of seeing how much I can avoid handing over to Google.
> So on my old phone, I only synchronized my calendar items with Google.
> I avoided synching everything else, there was no need.
We are so down with that. Skynet never got our calendar. I figured
out owncloud before we got that desperate.
We're trying to rely on owncloud's web interface and its support for
mobile screens. If its Mail application turns out to be a PITA, we'll
be looking at K-9 or some other encrypted email app (with, presumably,
a private email keys list).
I think we have secure access, via phone, to our private Contacts,
Calendars, Files, and Mail. Even Text and Phone is secure and private
among the brethren using LinPhone (and kamailio).
> That was in the not-evil days: now it seems to be sync all or nothing.
I sync Google to my "Normals" contact list so I can text and phone
normal people like a normal person should (in plain view of all).
Normal people don't care if they are tracked because they have nothing
to hide.
I think it hygienic to keep a high wall between your facade of normalcy
and the mysteries of your cloister. Using separate apps is just
another brick in the wall.
> Q: If I’m using a different mail client for non-Google email, will a sync
> with Google slurp up all my contacts anyway?
That would depend on the mail client. The owncloud Mail application
("just" a web 2.0 page) should not be able to read, much less write to,
the phone's contacts. Android apps should promise to backup new
contacts somewhere else.
> I’m not about to replace my OS, but just curious:
> Are there versions of Android that don’t feed the Beast?
I don't know how deep your paranoia runs but I expect Google will show
you what it knows about you, so at least you can check your hygiene.
Do you have a cloud you trust with which to sync? (That was mostly the
point of my earlier message: "Decentralize the Internet?")
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Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
I ran debian for a bit for my work laptop, but found that even though close to ubuntu, there was greatly decreased compatibility with anything like drivers or dpkg compatibility. Everything 3rd party dpkg just ass-u-me's ubuntu, which always broke things for me with bad dependencies and general chaos. I went back to ubuntu within a few months... I do have a love/hate relation with KDE. I'd really love to use it as I prefer it to other WM's, but it's so buggy with any multi-monitor function, even back to kde4 days, that it's still unusable for me. I tried using it with a fresh current build a few weeks ago on Arch, and found it still too broken to use with it, destabilizing within a few days to crash the pc (kwin compositing is crap). You can always keep ubuntu and try different window managers, each has strengths weaknesses. Less severe approach to switching distro's. I'd say try Arch if inclined. It was painful to get working, and never did on my laptop (xps15), but love it on my desktop. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to fix kde - been waiting 10-12 years already for me, and usually end up having to painfully move on. -mb On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 2:39 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:06:05 -0700 > Jim wrote: > > > On 09/04/2018 09:46 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > > > I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than > > > Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: > > > > > > * Do you want to keep using KDE? > > Yes > > > * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to > > > reside > > When I install it, I want it to just work, but I want to be able to > > tweak some settings if I want to. > > > * Do you have issues with using systemd? > > No > > > * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do > > >business? > > No > > > * Major versions, or rolling release? > > As long as it works and is stable, I don't care if it's a major > > version or rolling install. > > > * Binary install, or compiled install? > > I prefer to install binaries rather than compiling from source. I'm > > Sounds to me like Kubuntu is right for you. *Ubuntu's specialty is > "just works", and Kubuntu features the KDE wm/de you want, together > with other programs that work with KDE. "Just works" creates bugs on > edge cases, and KDE is known buggy, but it's what you want. The "No > Free Lunch" doctrine declares the price for this is a few bugs. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business > http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
Thanks, Matt. Yes, I had thought of the purge-before-sync angle. As you said, that would be pretty cumbersome since I am syncing my calendar several times a week. If my little battle with Google were serious, I’d have to go off the grid, and I’d find another web-based calendar, but last I looked Google was the only one that met my needs. Yes, I'll use another mail client for reasons of style, and I don’t have email addresses or “people details” in my contacts. What I don’t like, really, is the idea that I’m telling Google all about other people; but I don’t keep that much information about anyone. Take care, Victor Odhner _ On 20180904, at 13:27, Matt Graham wrote: On 2018-09-03 19:25, Victor Odhner wrote: > So on my old phone, I only synchronized my calendar items with Google. > I avoided synching everything else, there was no need. > That was in the not-evil days: now it seems to be sync all or nothing. > Q: IF I’M USING A DIFFERENT MAIL CLIENT FOR NON-GOOGLE EMAIL, WILL A > SYNC WITH GOOGLE SLURP UP ALL MY CONTACTS ANYWAY? I think this would depend on the mail client. Which one are you using? There's also the approach where you back up your contacts in your mail client, delete them all, sync with evil google, then restore the backed-up contacts in your client. This is probably too clumsy for regular use though. > I’m not about to replace my OS, but just curious: > Are there versions of Android that don’t feed the Beast? AOSP? LineageOS? These don't talk to google nearly as much. How usable they would be depends a lot on whatever it is you want to do with your phone. It's not immediately obvious whether a phone with LineageOS on it can be used to make and receive phone calls and SMS messages using the carrier-given phone#, for instance. -- Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress There is no Darkness in Eternity But only Light too dim for us to see. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 09/03/2018 10:50 PM, Jim wrote: I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer from windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used Kubuntu 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were too many bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are some annoying bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. While I agree that 16.04 was one of Kubuntu's worst releases, I've found 18.04 to be one of it's very best based on the few dozen systems I've installed it on so far. I've found little to no bugs with it. What sort of "annoying bugs" are you running into? Brian Cluff --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On Tue, 04 Sep 2018 10:40:59 -0700 Matt Birkholz wrote: > So to add to Steve's list of questions: What would you want your > granny to use? On the other hand, I've gained some decent security by obscurity from the fact that I use Openbox with dmenu hooked in with the Shift+Ctrl+semicolon hotkey, and my kids don't know how to switch workspaces. So they come to an absolutely black screen with which they can do nothing. If Granny's a hacker, better it not be easy :-) SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:06:05 -0700 Jim wrote: > On 09/04/2018 09:46 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > > I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than > > Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: > > > > * Do you want to keep using KDE? > Yes > > * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to > > reside > When I install it, I want it to just work, but I want to be able to > tweak some settings if I want to. > > * Do you have issues with using systemd? > No > > * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do > >business? > No > > * Major versions, or rolling release? > As long as it works and is stable, I don't care if it's a major > version or rolling install. > > * Binary install, or compiled install? > I prefer to install binaries rather than compiling from source. I'm Sounds to me like Kubuntu is right for you. *Ubuntu's specialty is "just works", and Kubuntu features the KDE wm/de you want, together with other programs that work with KDE. "Just works" creates bugs on edge cases, and KDE is known buggy, but it's what you want. The "No Free Lunch" doctrine declares the price for this is a few bugs. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
I use this machine for my music and video collection. I also do some occasional video editing. Kdenlive is good enough for that. Also I do the usual stuff- web surfing, email, etc. I also have a samba server on here to make it easier to move data from my phone to the computer. I've found plugging a usb cable into the phone to transfer files is unreliable. I also use sabnzb, ktorrent, handbrake and audacity. On 09/04/2018 10:26 AM, Bob Elzer wrote: Excellent Steve, Jim needs to make a list of what he does and uses on his Linux box. I used to upgrade on every release of Red hat by doing a fresh install, but every six months was a lot of work. Now I use Centos because of long term support and the fact it has so many things I can do with it. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Any way to keep my non-Google email contacts from Google?
On 2018-09-03 19:25, Victor Odhner wrote: So on my old phone, I only synchronized my calendar items with Google. I avoided synching everything else, there was no need. That was in the not-evil days: now it seems to be sync all or nothing. Q: IF I’M USING A DIFFERENT MAIL CLIENT FOR NON-GOOGLE EMAIL, WILL A SYNC WITH GOOGLE SLURP UP ALL MY CONTACTS ANYWAY? I think this would depend on the mail client. Which one are you using? There's also the approach where you back up your contacts in your mail client, delete them all, sync with evil google, then restore the backed-up contacts in your client. This is probably too clumsy for regular use though. I’m not about to replace my OS, but just curious: Are there versions of Android that don’t feed the Beast? AOSP? LineageOS? These don't talk to google nearly as much. How usable they would be depends a lot on whatever it is you want to do with your phone. It's not immediately obvious whether a phone with LineageOS on it can be used to make and receive phone calls and SMS messages using the carrier-given phone#, for instance. -- Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress There is no Darkness in Eternity But only Light too dim for us to see. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
She is awesome. reminds me of a customer I worked with at Visionman computers several moons ago. I helped guide her through reseating ram and CPU over the phone and she was set (damned ups). She called in 3-4 months later asking if her computer was linux compatible. I explained that it was 95% compatible as long as she didnt use the onboard raid it would work perfectly. On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:33 AM Bob Elzer wrote: > P.s. let's not forget tech savvy grandma Betty who was asking questions > and installing Linux on her computer with the help of the mailing list. > > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 11:29 AM Bob Elzer wrote: > >> To break that down, how computer savvy is the user. I agree mint is great >> for the not so savvy. Even for the savvy that don't want complicated. >> >> But if you want a server and being able to do lots of stuff, my choice is >> centos. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 10:41 AM Matt Birkholz >> wrote: >> >>> I find myself proselytizing. (Skynet comes!) So if friends and family >>> see something at my house they like I reflexively tell them they can have a >>> similar setup for free(dom). I want them seeing Ubuntu, maybe Mint, because >>> I can't imagine them using anything easier on the non-programmer. And I use >>> them myself; familiarity with Ubuntu quirks makes me look less like a Linux >>> Dork who, like a fan boy, said it would be "easy". >>> >>> So to add to Steve's list of questions: What would you want your granny >>> to use? >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
P.s. let's not forget tech savvy grandma Betty who was asking questions and installing Linux on her computer with the help of the mailing list. On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 11:29 AM Bob Elzer wrote: > To break that down, how computer savvy is the user. I agree mint is great > for the not so savvy. Even for the savvy that don't want complicated. > > But if you want a server and being able to do lots of stuff, my choice is > centos. > > > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 10:41 AM Matt Birkholz > wrote: > >> I find myself proselytizing. (Skynet comes!) So if friends and family see >> something at my house they like I reflexively tell them they can have a >> similar setup for free(dom). I want them seeing Ubuntu, maybe Mint, because >> I can't imagine them using anything easier on the non-programmer. And I use >> them myself; familiarity with Ubuntu quirks makes me look less like a Linux >> Dork who, like a fan boy, said it would be "easy". >> >> So to add to Steve's list of questions: What would you want your granny >> to use? >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
To break that down, how computer savvy is the user. I agree mint is great for the not so savvy. Even for the savvy that don't want complicated. But if you want a server and being able to do lots of stuff, my choice is centos. On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 10:41 AM Matt Birkholz wrote: > I find myself proselytizing. (Skynet comes!) So if friends and family see > something at my house they like I reflexively tell them they can have a > similar setup for free(dom). I want them seeing Ubuntu, maybe Mint, because > I can't imagine them using anything easier on the non-programmer. And I use > them myself; familiarity with Ubuntu quirks makes me look less like a Linux > Dork who, like a fan boy, said it would be "easy". > > So to add to Steve's list of questions: What would you want your granny to > use? > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
I find myself proselytizing. (Skynet comes!) So if friends and family see something at my house they like I reflexively tell them they can have a similar setup for free(dom). I want them seeing Ubuntu, maybe Mint, because I can't imagine them using anything easier on the non- programmer. And I use them myself; familiarity with Ubuntu quirks makes me look less like a Linux Dork who, like a fan boy, said it would be "easy". So to add to Steve's list of questions: What would you want your granny to use? --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
Jim, how much memory do you have? You could always create some virtual machines to try some different distros. On Sep 4, 2018 10:06 AM, "Jim" wrote: On 09/04/2018 09:46 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than > Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: > > * Do you want to keep using KDE? Yes > * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside When I install it, I want it to just work, but I want to be able to tweak some settings if I want to. > * Do you have issues with using systemd? No > * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do >business? No > * Major versions, or rolling release? As long as it works and is stable, I don't care if it's a major version or rolling install. > * Binary install, or compiled install? I prefer to install binaries rather than compiling from source. I'm not a programmer, so I don't understand the compiling process well. I can follow the step by step instructions, but if something goes wrong, I usually don't know how to fix it, or even if fixing it is possible. Thanks for all the advice. I have a 128GB SSD to boot from, but only use 40GB for Kubuntu, so there's plenty of room to install another OS for testing. > You probably have no opinion on many of these things, but at least ask > the question. Then, look at Distrowatch and ask LOTS of people what > they use. For instance, I use Void Linux, which, although not appearing > in the Distrowatch top 100, is the most stable and DIY distro I've ever > used. Lately, I've heard many things about #20, PCLinuxOS. #1 Manjaro > is pretty good if you don't mind systemd and the fact that it's rolling > release. > > You expressed dissatisfaction with Kubuntu's bugs. Big, bloaty wm/de's > (Window Manager/Desktop Environment) are necessarily buggy: Too much > complication to build quality in from the start, so they play > whack-a-mole with bugs, and actually have other problems. Try Lubuntu, > which is Ubuntu with the very lightweight and rock-stable LXDE wm/de. > If you're a touch-typist, install dmenu to enable lightning fast > command-running: Much faster than any hierarchical menu can give you. > > You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is > this: At this point, limiting yourself to Ubuntu or Debian would be > premature. > > SteveT > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
Excellent Steve, Jim needs to make a list of what he does and uses on his Linux box. I used to upgrade on every release of Red hat by doing a fresh install, but every six months was a lot of work. Now I use Centos because of long term support and the fact it has so many things I can do with it. On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 9:53 AM Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:50:41 -0700 > Jim wrote: > > > I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer > > from windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used > > Kubuntu 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were > > too many bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are > > some annoying bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. > > > > I saw on here recently that someone said they use the stable branch > > of Debian. I'm looking for some advice. Should I stay with Kubuntu > > or switch to Debian 9 stable? If you have an opinion, please tell > > why you favor one over the other. > > I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than > Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: > > * Do you want to keep using KDE? > > * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside? > > * Do you have issues with using systemd? > > * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do > business? > > * Major versions, or rolling release? > > * Binary install, or compiled install? > > You probably have no opinion on many of these things, but at least ask > the question. Then, look at Distrowatch and ask LOTS of people what > they use. For instance, I use Void Linux, which, although not appearing > in the Distrowatch top 100, is the most stable and DIY distro I've ever > used. Lately, I've heard many things about #20, PCLinuxOS. #1 Manjaro > is pretty good if you don't mind systemd and the fact that it's rolling > release. > > You expressed dissatisfaction with Kubuntu's bugs. Big, bloaty wm/de's > (Window Manager/Desktop Environment) are necessarily buggy: Too much > complication to build quality in from the start, so they play > whack-a-mole with bugs, and actually have other problems. Try Lubuntu, > which is Ubuntu with the very lightweight and rock-stable LXDE wm/de. > If you're a touch-typist, install dmenu to enable lightning fast > command-running: Much faster than any hierarchical menu can give you. > > You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is > this: At this point, limiting yourself to Ubuntu or Debian would be > premature. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business > http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss On Sep 4, 2018 9:53 AM, "Steve Litt" wrote: On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:50:41 -0700 Jim wrote: > I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer > from windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used > Kubuntu 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were > too many bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are > some annoying bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. > > I saw on here recently that someone said they use the stable branch > of Debian. I'm looking for some advice. Should I stay with Kubuntu > or switch to Debian 9 stable? If you have an opinion, please tell > why you favor one over the other. I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: * Do you want to keep using KDE? * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside? * Do you have issues with using systemd? * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do business? * Major versions, or rolling release? * Binary install, or compiled install? You probably have no opinion on many of these things, but at least ask the question. Then, look at Distrowatch and ask LOTS of people what they use. For instance, I use Void Linux, which, although not appearing in the Distrowatch top 100, is the most stable and DIY distro I've ever used. Lately, I've heard many things about #20, PCLinuxOS. #1 Manjaro is pretty good if you don't mind systemd and the fact that it's rolling release. You expressed dissatisfaction with Kubuntu's bugs. Big, bloaty wm/de's (Window Manager/Desktop Environment) are necessarily buggy: Too much complication to build quality in from the start, so they play whack-a-mole with bugs, and actually have other problems. Try Lubuntu, which is Ubuntu with the very lightweight and rock-stable LXDE wm/de. If you're a touch-typist, install dmenu to enable lightning fast command-running: Much faster than any hierarchical menu can give you. You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is
RE: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
My stupid email client (OutBreak) doesn't know about quoting, sorry. (And I'm at work, so have no choice in the matter - can't use a REAL email client ;-) So, I'll agree with Steve's great set of questions. In my case, I've chosen Linux Mint (which does have a KDE version) - primarily because their 'distribution goal' is 'to just work' (which means that they've disabled updating in Synaptic - you have to use package manager for that. Sorry, and for the purist they'd tear Mint from limb to limb over that, but since I personally have had a package install break stuff, I'm now ok with that approach...). Since I've not directly addressed or responded to anything in the original, my scissors will be quite aggressive :-) I'll simply say that, as far as I know, Mint and probably MANY others will meet your 'requirements' below (mint 18.3 uses systemd, mint 17 didn't. If the network comes up fast, our systems booting 18 are blazing fast to boot, even compared to 17 which was pretty fast anyway) Snipping begins! -Original Message- From: PLUG-discuss [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.phxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Jim Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 10:06 AM To: main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18 On 09/04/2018 09:46 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than > Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: > > * Do you want to keep using KDE? Yes > * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside When I install it, I want it to just work, but I want to be able to tweak some settings if I want to. > * Do you have issues with using systemd? No ...Chop/chop/chop... > > You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is > this: At this point, limiting yourself to Ubuntu or Debian would be > premature. Rusty - Agree completely. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On 09/04/2018 09:46 AM, Steve Litt wrote: I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: * Do you want to keep using KDE? Yes * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside When I install it, I want it to just work, but I want to be able to tweak some settings if I want to. * Do you have issues with using systemd? No * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do business? No * Major versions, or rolling release? As long as it works and is stable, I don't care if it's a major version or rolling install. * Binary install, or compiled install? I prefer to install binaries rather than compiling from source. I'm not a programmer, so I don't understand the compiling process well. I can follow the step by step instructions, but if something goes wrong, I usually don't know how to fix it, or even if fixing it is possible. Thanks for all the advice. I have a 128GB SSD to boot from, but only use 40GB for Kubuntu, so there's plenty of room to install another OS for testing. You probably have no opinion on many of these things, but at least ask the question. Then, look at Distrowatch and ask LOTS of people what they use. For instance, I use Void Linux, which, although not appearing in the Distrowatch top 100, is the most stable and DIY distro I've ever used. Lately, I've heard many things about #20, PCLinuxOS. #1 Manjaro is pretty good if you don't mind systemd and the fact that it's rolling release. You expressed dissatisfaction with Kubuntu's bugs. Big, bloaty wm/de's (Window Manager/Desktop Environment) are necessarily buggy: Too much complication to build quality in from the start, so they play whack-a-mole with bugs, and actually have other problems. Try Lubuntu, which is Ubuntu with the very lightweight and rock-stable LXDE wm/de. If you're a touch-typist, install dmenu to enable lightning fast command-running: Much faster than any hierarchical menu can give you. You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is this: At this point, limiting yourself to Ubuntu or Debian would be premature. SteveT --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Debian 9 vs Ubuntu 18
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:50:41 -0700 Jim wrote: > I've been using Kubuntu for 5 years now since I freed my computer > from windows and started running linux. For most of that time I used > Kubuntu 14. I tried 16, but soon gave up on it because there were > too many bugs. In July I put Kubuntu 18 on this machine. There are > some annoying bugs with it, but nothing that keeps me from using it. > > I saw on here recently that someone said they use the stable branch > of Debian. I'm looking for some advice. Should I stay with Kubuntu > or switch to Debian 9 stable? If you have an opinion, please tell > why you favor one over the other. I think your near-future decisions are much more wide ranging than Kubuntu vs Debian Stable: * Do you want to keep using KDE? * Where on the "User Friendly" vs DIY spectrum do you want to reside? * Do you have issues with using systemd? * Are there distros you like or dislike because of the way they do business? * Major versions, or rolling release? * Binary install, or compiled install? You probably have no opinion on many of these things, but at least ask the question. Then, look at Distrowatch and ask LOTS of people what they use. For instance, I use Void Linux, which, although not appearing in the Distrowatch top 100, is the most stable and DIY distro I've ever used. Lately, I've heard many things about #20, PCLinuxOS. #1 Manjaro is pretty good if you don't mind systemd and the fact that it's rolling release. You expressed dissatisfaction with Kubuntu's bugs. Big, bloaty wm/de's (Window Manager/Desktop Environment) are necessarily buggy: Too much complication to build quality in from the start, so they play whack-a-mole with bugs, and actually have other problems. Try Lubuntu, which is Ubuntu with the very lightweight and rock-stable LXDE wm/de. If you're a touch-typist, install dmenu to enable lightning fast command-running: Much faster than any hierarchical menu can give you. You probably have many options I haven't discussed. The main thing is this: At this point, limiting yourself to Ubuntu or Debian would be premature. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
