Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting options.
Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a domain for 9
per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor a VPS.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than $120.
> Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like this
> on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
> Cost (Cost per time period)
> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.6 0.04692 1.12608 204.94656
>
>
>
>
>
> Grand Total 499.9104
> Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be
> about twice what you thought it was.
>
> I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it comes
> to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper to buy
> something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power to feel
> a machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
> With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100%
> capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be
> closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
> Cost (Cost per time period)
> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.0076 0.00082916 0.01989984 2.42778048
> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.0076 0.00087932 0.02110368 1.30842816
> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.0076 0.00059432 0.01426368
> 2.59598976
>
>
>
>
>
> Grand Total 6.3321984
>
> Brian Cluff
>
> On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the machine 
> never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare instances 
> going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 600w at 
> maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less than $120 
> yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out of service and 
> is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W under full 
> load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to the electrical bill 
> here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
> 1. The refrigerator
> 2. The stove/oven
> 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
> warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
> month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, we 
> might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it back 
> up and using it as my go to linux development machine.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>   wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server from 
> home:
>
> Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
> nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
> powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 250W 
> desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a whopping 
> $262.00 per year!
>
> ---
> I think their math is wrong.
>
> The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
>
> I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell with a 400 
> watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on average.  I've read 
> that the computer should use no more than half the power supply capacity.  Is 
> this correct?
>
> If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts * 30 
> days * 24 hours or 72K watts.
>
> I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.
>
> Any thoughts are much appreciated.
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail 
> settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail 
> settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss



-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent 

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3 dedicated servers,
one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB ram, it runs as a VM host for all
sorts of things for me. and 2 mac mini's one is a windows server (I know
but professionally speaking this is a good thing for me to keep in touch
with). and the other is a linux server. they are a great low-power
solution. (look for older 2012 models if you go this route)


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington 
wrote:

> For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting
> options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a domain
> for 9 per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor
> a VPS.
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than $120.
>> Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like this
>> on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
>> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
>> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
>> Cost (Cost per time period)
>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
>> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.6 0.04692 1.12608 204.94656
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Grand Total 499.9104
>> Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be
>> about twice what you thought it was.
>>
>> I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it
>> comes to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper
>> to buy something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power
>> to feel a machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
>> With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100%
>> capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be
>> closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
>> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
>> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
>> Cost (Cost per time period)
>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.0076 0.00082916 0.01989984 2.42778048
>> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.0076 0.00087932 0.02110368 1.30842816
>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.0076 0.00059432 0.01426368
>> 2.59598976
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Grand Total 6.3321984
>>
>> Brian Cluff
>>
>> On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>
>> Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the 
>> machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare 
>> instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 
>> 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less than 
>> $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out of 
>> service and is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W 
>> under full load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to the 
>> electrical bill here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in this 
>> house now:
>> 1. The refrigerator
>> 2. The stove/oven
>> 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
>> warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
>> month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, we 
>> might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it back 
>> up and using it as my go to linux development machine.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>>   wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server from 
>> home:
>>
>> Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
>> nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
>> powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 250W 
>> desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a whopping 
>> $262.00 per year!
>>
>> ---
>> I think their math is wrong.
>>
>> The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
>>
>> I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell with a 400 
>> watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on average.  I've read 
>> that the computer should use no more than half the power supply capacity.  
>> Is this correct?
>>
>> If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts * 30 
>> days * 24 hours or 72K watts.
>>
>> I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.
>>
>> Any thoughts are much appreciated.
>>
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail 
>> settings:h

Re: using a thumb drive as a partition.

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

Flash media by nature still has a limit to the number of writes they can
make. but wear leveling is pretty smart nowadays. and if you underprovision
your drive by say 5-10% (IE leave it raw space without a file system) you
can increase this. Most are designed with this concept in mind so it is
more about a level of personal paranoia or preference.

i still find their write performance leaves something to be desired so i
would test it out and see if it meets your needs.

Many servers have a dedicated internal port for a thumb drive to serve as
the host OS drive. OS's tuned for this frequently only write for updates
and push all caching operations off to spinning rust or an SSD. in these
use cases the drives will last for 10 years or more because read operations
to not reduce the device operation.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 2:06 PM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Have they fixed the number of writes a drive cN TAKE? OR ELSE HOW MANY
> WRITES CAN an sd card take. I want to use it for LFS
>
> --
> :-)~MIKE~(-:
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss



-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
---
PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

What would you call a decent ryzen laptop? I have seen several that i find
very nice.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:20 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
> under ~10 bucks 
> anyways if I have to.
>
> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
>
> -mb
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Framework Newsletter 
> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>
>
> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop
>
>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
> [image: framework logo]
> 
> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>
> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
>
> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
> laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*
>
> – Lori Grunin, CNET
> 
> ( 8.5/10 )
>
> *“It’s the ultimate Right to Repair laptop”*
>
> – Gordon Ung, PCWorld
> 
>
> *“The Framework Laptop is more than just [a] worthwhile experiment in
> modularity, it’s also a great laptop.”*
>
> – Luke Larson, Digital Trends
> 

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss]

Hmm, interesting.

We have been on a budget plan with SRP for more than 30 years here. In all that 
time, our bill never varied much from the $150 to $175 a month and that cost 
has been consistent for the last 20 years or so. In fact, before he passed on, 
the senior roomie here kept all copies of his bills. I have been going through 
them with his son in order to electronically copy all of them (among other 
important papers), so, my data on this is pretty recent. So, either my machine 
(at the time) was using less than I thought, or SRP made a significant 
accounting error for a better part of several years.

Believe me, a $500 or more amount yearly would have been noticed here.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild. Accounting Dept.


> On Jul 22, 2021, at 3:45 PM, Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than $120.  
> Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like this on 
> SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
> MonthsNumber of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in Kilo watts  
> Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)   Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 
> hours)   Total Cost (Cost per time period)
> May, Jun, Sep, Oct122 0.1091  0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
> Jul,Aug   62  0.1157  0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April182 0.0782  0.6 0.04692 1.12608 
> 204.94656
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grand Total   499.9104
> 
> Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be about 
> twice what you thought it was.
> 
> I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it comes to 
> use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper to buy 
> something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power to feel a 
> machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
> With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100% 
> capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be 
> closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
> MonthsNumber of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in Kilo watts  
> Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)   Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 
> hours)   Total Cost (Cost per time period)
> May, Jun, Sep, Oct122 0.1091  0.0076  0.00082916  0.01989984  
> 2.42778048
> Jul,Aug   62  0.1157  0.0076  0.00087932  0.02110368  
> 1.30842816
> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April182 0.0782  0.0076  0.00059432  
> 0.01426368  2.59598976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grand Total   6.3321984
> 
> 
> Brian Cluff
> 
> On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the 
>> machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare 
>> instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 
>> 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less than 
>> $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out of 
>> service and is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W 
>> under full load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to the 
>> electrical bill here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in this 
>> house now:
>> 1. The refrigerator
>> 2. The stove/oven 
>> 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
>> warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
>> month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, we 
>> might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it back 
>> up and using it as my go to linux development machine.
>> 
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
>> 
>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>>>   
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server from 
>>> home:
>>> 
>>> Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
>>> nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
>>> powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 250W 
>>> desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a 
>>> whopping $262.00 per year!
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> I think their math is wrong.
>>> 
>>> The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
>>> 
>>> I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell with a 400 
>>> watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on average.  I've read 
>>> that the computer should use no more than half the power supply capacity.  
>>> Is this correct?
>>> 
>>> If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts * 30 
>>> days * 24 hours or 72K watts.
>>> 
>>> I'm thinki

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

My big wants are 4x sodimm slots for ram (ie. I can load it with 128gb ram
with 4x 32gb sticks), 2x m.2 ssd's (raid 1), and 4k display with a decent
gpu, at least better than intel integrated crap.  Much like your beefy
thinkpad, just without intel vs. nvidia weirdness that never works right
anyways with a decent gpu, at least under linux.  Something lightweight too
akin to my xps15, I don't need a 10lb laptop to haul when I do go onsite
with customers to install their networks in a data center.  I'm old and it
hurts now.

I figure in theory AMD + Radeon will work much more smoothly, and offer
something better than typically shitty intel graphics or adding nvidia atop
intel that requires prime that never works suitably.  I don't game a lot,
but with steam proton I was finally able to start playing decent games on
my desktop before it died, my xps15's intel gpu just doesn't have the umph
to deal, and prime is just a basketcase that usually crashes things to try.

-mb


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:21 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> What would you call a decent ryzen laptop? I have seen several that i find
> very nice.
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:20 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
>> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
>> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
>> under ~10 bucks 
>> anyways if I have to.
>>
>> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Framework Newsletter 
>> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
>> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>>
>>
>> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>> Laptop
>>
>>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
>> [image: framework logo]
>> 
>> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
>> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>>
>> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
>> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
>> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
>> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
>> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
>>
>> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
>> laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*
>>
>> – Lori Grunin, CNET
>> 
>> ( 8.5/10 )
>>
>> *“It’s the ultimate Right to Repair laptop”*
>>
>> – Gordon Ung, PCWorld
>> 

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

I would love that setup as well. This ThinkPad is the closest I have seen
to date.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:47 AM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> My big wants are 4x sodimm slots for ram (ie. I can load it with 128gb ram
> with 4x 32gb sticks), 2x m.2 ssd's (raid 1), and 4k display with a decent
> gpu, at least better than intel integrated crap.  Much like your beefy
> thinkpad, just without intel vs. nvidia weirdness that never works right
> anyways with a decent gpu, at least under linux.  Something lightweight too
> akin to my xps15, I don't need a 10lb laptop to haul when I do go onsite
> with customers to install their networks in a data center.  I'm old and it
> hurts now.
>
> I figure in theory AMD + Radeon will work much more smoothly, and offer
> something better than typically shitty intel graphics or adding nvidia atop
> intel that requires prime that never works suitably.  I don't game a lot,
> but with steam proton I was finally able to start playing decent games on
> my desktop before it died, my xps15's intel gpu just doesn't have the umph
> to deal, and prime is just a basketcase that usually crashes things to try.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:21 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> What would you call a decent ryzen laptop? I have seen several that i
>> find very nice.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:20 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
>>> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
>>> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
>>> under ~10 bucks
>>>  anyways if I
>>> have to.
>>>
>>> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of
>>> these.
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message -
>>> From: Framework Newsletter 
>>> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
>>> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>>>
>>>
>>> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>>> Laptop
>>>
>>>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
>>> [image: framework logo]
>>> 
>>> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
>>> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>>>
>>> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>>> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
>>> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
>>> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
>>> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
>>> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
>>>
>>> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
>>> laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*
>>>
>>> – Lori Grunin, CNET
>>> 

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Aaron Jones via PLUG-discuss]

Please use literally anyone but Dreamhost. 

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 8:13 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3 dedicated servers, 
> one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB ram, it runs as a VM host for all 
> sorts of things for me. and 2 mac mini's one is a windows server (I know but 
> professionally speaking this is a good thing for me to keep in touch with). 
> and the other is a linux server. they are a great low-power solution. (look 
> for older 2012 models if you go this route)
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington  
>> wrote:
>> For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting options. 
>> Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a domain for 9 per 
>> month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor a VPS.
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than $120.  
>>> Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like this 
>>> on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
>>> Months  Number of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in Kilo watts  
>>> Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)   Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 
>>> hours)   Total Cost (Cost per time period)
>>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct  122 0.1091  0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
>>> Jul,Aug 62  0.1157  0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
>>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April  182 0.0782  0.6 0.04692 1.12608 
>>> 204.94656
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Grand Total 499.9104
>>> 
>>> Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be 
>>> about twice what you thought it was.
>>> 
>>> I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it comes 
>>> to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper to buy 
>>> something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power to feel 
>>> a machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
>>> With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100% 
>>> capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be 
>>> closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
>>> Months  Number of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in Kilo watts  
>>> Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)   Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 
>>> hours)   Total Cost (Cost per time period)
>>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct  122 0.1091  0.0076  0.00082916  0.01989984  
>>> 2.42778048
>>> Jul,Aug 62  0.1157  0.0076  0.00087932  0.02110368  
>>> 1.30842816
>>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April  182 0.0782  0.0076  0.00059432  
>>> 0.01426368  2.59598976
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Grand Total 6.3321984
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Brian Cluff
>>> 
>>> On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
 Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the 
 machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare 
 instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 
 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less 
 than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out 
 of service and is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 
 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to 
 the electrical bill here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in 
 this house now:
 1. The refrigerator
 2. The stove/oven 
 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
 warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
 month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, 
 we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it 
 back up and using it as my go to linux development machine.
 
 -Eric
 From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
 
> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server 
> from home:
> 
> Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
> nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
> powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 
> 250W desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a 
> whopping $262.00 per year!
> 
> ---
> I think their math is wrong.
> 
> The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
> 
> I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell with a 
> 400 watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on average.  I've 
> r

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss]

Is Dreamhost a terrible abuser of privacy?

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:24 AM Aaron Jones via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Please use literally anyone but Dreamhost.
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 8:13 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> 
> I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3 dedicated
> servers, one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB ram, it runs as a VM
> host for all sorts of things for me. and 2 mac mini's one is a windows
> server (I know but professionally speaking this is a good thing for me to
> keep in touch with). and the other is a linux server. they are a great
> low-power solution. (look for older 2012 models if you go this route)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington 
> wrote:
>
>> For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting
>> options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a domain
>> for 9 per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor
>> a VPS.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than $120.
>>> Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like this
>>> on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
>>> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
>>> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
>>> Cost (Cost per time period)
>>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
>>> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
>>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.6 0.04692 1.12608 204.94656
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Grand Total 499.9104
>>> Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be
>>> about twice what you thought it was.
>>>
>>> I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it
>>> comes to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper
>>> to buy something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power
>>> to feel a machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
>>> With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100%
>>> capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be
>>> closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
>>> Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
>>> hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) Total
>>> Cost (Cost per time period)
>>> May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.0076 0.00082916 0.01989984 2.42778048
>>> Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.0076 0.00087932 0.02110368 1.30842816
>>> Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.0076 0.00059432 0.01426368
>>> 2.59598976
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Grand Total 6.3321984
>>>
>>> Brian Cluff
>>>
>>> On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>
>>> Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the 
>>> machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare 
>>> instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 
>>> 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less than 
>>> $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out of 
>>> service and is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W 
>>> under full load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to the 
>>> electrical bill here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in this 
>>> house now:
>>> 1. The refrigerator
>>> 2. The stove/oven
>>> 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
>>> warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
>>> month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, we 
>>> might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it 
>>> back up and using it as my go to linux development machine.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>>>   wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server from 
>>> home:
>>>
>>> Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
>>> nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
>>> powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 250W 
>>> desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a 
>>> whopping $262.00 per year!
>>>
>>> ---
>>> I think their math is wrong.
>>>
>>> The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell with a 400 
>>> watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on average.  I've read 
>>> that the computer should use no more than half the power supp

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

The Dell G5 5505 is the closest i have seen from one of the big box crew.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:01 AM Stephen Partington 
wrote:

> I would love that setup as well. This ThinkPad is the closest I have seen
> to date.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:47 AM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> My big wants are 4x sodimm slots for ram (ie. I can load it with 128gb
>> ram with 4x 32gb sticks), 2x m.2 ssd's (raid 1), and 4k display with a
>> decent gpu, at least better than intel integrated crap.  Much like your
>> beefy thinkpad, just without intel vs. nvidia weirdness that never works
>> right anyways with a decent gpu, at least under linux.  Something
>> lightweight too akin to my xps15, I don't need a 10lb laptop to haul when I
>> do go onsite with customers to install their networks in a data center.
>> I'm old and it hurts now.
>>
>> I figure in theory AMD + Radeon will work much more smoothly, and offer
>> something better than typically shitty intel graphics or adding nvidia atop
>> intel that requires prime that never works suitably.  I don't game a lot,
>> but with steam proton I was finally able to start playing decent games on
>> my desktop before it died, my xps15's intel gpu just doesn't have the umph
>> to deal, and prime is just a basketcase that usually crashes things to try.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:21 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What would you call a decent ryzen laptop? I have seen several that i
>>> find very nice.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:20 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
 I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
 shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
 an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
 under ~10 bucks
  anyways if I
 have to.

 If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of
 these.

 -mb


 -- Forwarded message -
 From: Framework Newsletter 
 Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
 Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!


 We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
 Laptop

  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
 ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
 ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
 ‌ ‌
 [image: framework logo]
 
 The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
 [image: Framework Laptop on desk]

 We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
 Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
 unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
 timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
 repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
 more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:

 *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
 laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*

 – Lori Grunin, CNET
 

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

I am curious, they have treated me very well over the years.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:29 AM Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Is Dreamhost a terrible abuser of privacy?
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:24 AM Aaron Jones via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Please use literally anyone but Dreamhost.
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 8:13 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3 dedicated
>> servers, one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB ram, it runs as a VM
>> host for all sorts of things for me. and 2 mac mini's one is a windows
>> server (I know but professionally speaking this is a good thing for me to
>> keep in touch with). and the other is a linux server. they are a great
>> low-power solution. (look for older 2012 models if you go this route)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting
>>> options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a domain
>>> for 9 per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor
>>> a VPS.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
 I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than
 $120.  Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would look like
 this on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:
 Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
 hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) 
 Total
 Cost (Cost per time period)
 May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.6 0.06546 1.57104 191.66688
 Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.6 0.06942 1.66608 103.29696
 Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.6 0.04692 1.12608 204.94656





 Grand Total 499.9104
 Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still be
 about twice what you thought it was.

 I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it
 comes to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper
 to buy something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is pay for power
 to feel a machine that uses waaay more than you need to.
 With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to 100%
 capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would most likely be
 closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
 Months Number of Days Kwh Cost Machine Load in Kilo watts Cost per
 hour(KWH cost times wattage) Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours) 
 Total
 Cost (Cost per time period)
 May, Jun, Sep, Oct 122 0.1091 0.0076 0.00082916 0.01989984 2.42778048
 Jul,Aug 62 0.1157 0.0076 0.00087932 0.02110368 1.30842816
 Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April 182 0.0782 0.0076 0.00059432 0.01426368
 2.59598976





 Grand Total 6.3321984

 Brian Cluff

 On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

 Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the 
 machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 VMWare 
 instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never drew more than 
 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years and it added less 
 than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These days, that machine is out 
 of service and is only good for parts. My Mac mini, which draws at most 
 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I don’t even see it add that much to 
 the electrical bill here. There are really only 3 high draw appliances in 
 this house now:
 1. The refrigerator
 2. The stove/oven
 3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on wall 
 warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less than $150 a 
 month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back into service, 
 we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still contemplating putting it 
 back up and using it as my go to linux development machine.

 -Eric
 From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.


 On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
   wrote:



 Hi,

 I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web server from 
 home:

 Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around doing 
 nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the cost of 
 powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very expensive. A 250W 
 desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 cents per KW/h is a 
 whopping $262.00 per year!

 ---
 I think their math is wrong.

>>

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Thanks David!!


On 2021-07-21 19:26, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:

If this is just for learning, do you want or need it to run 24/7/365?
If not, you can shut it off when you don’t need it if you’re
concerned about power.


The goal is for it to run 24/7 serving up one of my domains.



Note that a lot of old PCs have power supplies where the fans run all
the time. They can end up consuming quite a bit of power.

You might consider a 2012-vintage Mac Mini. It already has Unix
built-in and everything you need to run as a server.

They’re between $150 and $250 on eBay and sometimes as low as $100.

FWIW, thru most of the 90’s I had a little box I ran as a dedicated
server at a co-lo facility in town.

It was a mini-ITX with a 600 MHz x86 clone chip, 256 MB of RAM, a 20GB
HDD, and 10MB ethernet. I ran Debian on it. After the third HDD died,
I moved to a reseller-type WHM/cPanel hosting account that was a LOT
cheaper per month. (My current one is less than $20/mo.)

(The co-lo facility’s biggest monthly expense was their A/C bill.)



I have too much old hardware.  I was going to use an old Dell i3... 
however I am thinking of using one of my old laptops.


Both have their merits.

The laptop has a build in monitor... however I do not need the monitor 
once the O/S is installed.  I then use SSH.


I'm thinking the Dell mini tower has a faster bus and memory. And it has 
8GB of RAM vs 4GB of RAM on the Laptop.  I'm guessing the faster bus and 
RAM will make a difference.


They both have 2 cores and 4 threads.

Both CPUs benchmark the same and they have the exact same SSD.

I'm thinking the mini tower is better.  I do not think I will ever use 
8GB of RAM on a home web server.


Given what everyone is saying, the amount of power used is somewhat 
dependent on demand.  Low demand = low power usage.





The Raspberry Pi Zero W costs $10, and has these features:

 • 1GHz, single-core CPU

 • 512MB RAM

 • 802.11 b/g/n wireless LAN

 • Bluetooth 4.1

 • Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)

 • Mini HDMI and USB On-The-Go ports

 • Micro USB power

 • HAT-compatible 40-pin header

 • Composite video and reset headers

 • CSI camera connector

It consumes 120-170 mA (but can source over 1A to USB), so can run off
of a USB battery pack if needed.

This puppy has more power and features than that mini-ITX machine I
had!

It comes with a ready-to-run Linux on an SD card and fits into a box
about the size of a pack of cigarettes. No fan is needed AFAIK.

You can plug nearly any size storage you want into the USB port,
although the SD card can be used for additional storage.


I would like to try a Raspberry Pi ... maybe a future project.




-David Schwartz


On Jul 21, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

Hi Eric,

I assume you live in the valley? And you use a master cool
evaporative cooler... Off topic question - Does your master cool,
cool your house reasonably in the summer and more so during the
monsoons?

On 2021-07-21 15:50, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply,
the
machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8
VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never
drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years
and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These
days,
that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My Mac
mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I
don’t
even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There are
really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
1. The refrigerator
2. The stove/oven
3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs
on
wall warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less
than
$150 a month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back
into
service, we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still
contemplating putting it back up and using it as my go to linux
development machine.
-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:
Hi,
I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web
server from home:
Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around
doing nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the
cost of powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very
expensive. A 250W desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12
cents per KW/h is a whopping $262.00 per year!
---
I think their math is wrong.
The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell
with a 400 watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on
average.  I've read that the computer should use no more than half
the power supply capacity.  Is this correct?
If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts
* 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watt

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

I feel for you!!

On 2021-07-21 22:21, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Well, yes and no.
During the “dry months” it can be a little over efficient. During the
110 degree days with less than 5% humidity, it can maintain the place
at 80-85 degrees. During the monsoon (especially this last week), it
can be miserable, although cooler than outside. It was over 90 in the
house today and almost as muggy as any coastal city. With that much
moister in here, things tend to get sticky and mildew can build up
rapidly. So, during the cool of the night (if you call 90 outside
cool), we put it on vent and dry out the house a bit.

And yeah, all this moister can be hell on computer equipment. Contacts
tend to corrode, dust starts to become more conductive, etc. Now, if I
had an ammonia chiller unit here with the condenser coil being
pre-cooled by the evaporations cooler, we could be dry as a bone in
here and 80 degrees regardless of outside temp. The reason I specify
an ammonia chiller, it doesn’t require a compressor to operate (just a
low value thermal exciter to get the ball rolling) Sure, running an
extra fan inside to blow air across the coil might take a few extra
pennies, but the chill during the heat would be more than worth it.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, HVAC Dept.


On Jul 21, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:



Hi Eric,

I assume you live in the valley? And you use a master cool evaporative 
cooler... Off topic question - Does your master cool, cool your house 
reasonably in the summer and more so during the monsoons?



On 2021-07-21 15:50, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply, the
machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8
VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never
drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years
and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These 
days,

that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My Mac
mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I 
don’t

even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There are
really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
1. The refrigerator
2. The stove/oven
3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs on
wall warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less 
than
$150 a month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2 back 
into

service, we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still
contemplating putting it back up and using it as my go to linux
development machine.
-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.
On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:

Hi,
I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web 
server from home:
Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around 
doing nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the 
cost of powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very 
expensive. A 250W desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12 
cents per KW/h is a whopping $262.00 per year!

---
I think their math is wrong.
The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.
I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell 
with a 400 watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on 
average.  I've read that the computer should use no more than half 
the power supply capacity.  Is this correct?
If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts 
* 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.

I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
---
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Re: cost to operate.

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Based on what we have been discussing I assume my 400 watt power supply 
may be drawing much less power based on actual usage.  Therefore maybe 
my computer might only be using 60 watts... making the cost lower.


Your thoughts.



On 2021-07-22 21:39, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I usually use a mental rule of thumb that for every watt of 24/7/365
power consumption costs about $1 per year. Obviously this is failing
as electric rates keep going up. So to first order of magnitude a 100
watt server would cost around $100 a year, but if the server was using
the whole 400 watts it would cost more like $400 a year.


If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100

watts *>> 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.


I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.


   KINDNESS

is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for

   FREE
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Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

My friend has a Blue host shared account and he is looking for a better 
host.  He says they are too slow.


If the VPS has at least 2 cores, 4GB of RAM, and root/ssh, that is a 
great deal!!



On 2021-07-23 08:09, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:

For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting
options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a
domain for 9 per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10
per month Ifor a VPS.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:


I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than
$120.  Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would
look like this on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:

Months
Number of Days
Kwh Cost
Machine Load in Kilo watts
Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)
Total Cost (Cost per time period)

May, Jun, Sep, Oct
122
0.1091
0.6
0.06546
1.57104
191.66688

Jul,Aug
62
0.1157
0.6
0.06942
1.66608
103.29696

Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April
182
0.0782
0.6
0.04692
1.12608
204.94656

Grand Total
499.9104

Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still
be about twice what you thought it was.

I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it
comes to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH
cheaper to buy something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is
pay for power to feel a machine that uses waaay more than you need
to.
With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to
100% capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would
most likely be closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:

Months
Number of Days
Kwh Cost
Machine Load in Kilo watts
Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)
Total Cost (Cost per time period)

May, Jun, Sep, Oct
122
0.1091
0.0076
0.00082916
0.01989984
2.42778048

Jul,Aug
62
0.1157
0.0076
0.00087932
0.02110368
1.30842816

Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April
182
0.0782
0.0076
0.00059432
0.01426368
2.59598976

Grand Total
6.3321984

Brian Cluff

On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply,
the machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning,
8 VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never
drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years
and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These
days, that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My
Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I
don’t even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There
are really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
1. The refrigerator
2. The stove/oven
3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs
on wall warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less
than $150 a month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2
back into service, we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still
contemplating putting it back up and using it as my go to linux
development machine.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.

On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

Hi,

I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web
server from home:

Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around
doing nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the
cost of powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very
expensive. A 250W desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12
cents per KW/h is a whopping $262.00 per year!

---
I think their math is wrong.

The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.

I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell
with a 400 watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on
average.  I've read that the computer should use no more than half
the power supply capacity.  Is this correct?

If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts
* 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.

I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

---
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 ---
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--
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock,

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

I misread your earlier post.  I read BlueHost.  I have no experience 
with Dreamhost.



On 2021-07-23 09:24, Aaron Jones via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Please use literally anyone but Dreamhost.


On Jul 23, 2021, at 8:13 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:





I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3 dedicated
servers, one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB ram, it runs as a
VM host for all sorts of things for me. and 2 mac mini's one is a
windows server (I know but professionally speaking this is a good
thing for me to keep in touch with). and the other is a linux
server. they are a great low-power solution. (look for older 2012
models if you go this route)

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington
 wrote:

For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the online hosting
options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with unlimited everything and a
domain for 9 per month (down to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10
per month Ifor a VPS.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

I think you'll find that server of yours used closer to $500 than
$120.  Based on the 600watt number that you gave your usage would
look like this on SRP right now under their normal flat rate plan:

Months
Number of Days
Kwh Cost
Machine Load in Kilo watts
Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)
Total Cost (Cost per time period)

May, Jun, Sep, Oct
122
0.1091
0.6
0.06546
1.57104
191.66688

Jul,Aug
62
0.1157
0.6
0.06942
1.66608
103.29696

Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April
182
0.0782
0.6
0.04692
1.12608
204.94656

Grand Total
499.9104

Even if you machine used half the power you specified it would still
be about twice what you thought it was.

I always recommend that people don't use their old computers when it
comes to use cases like using them for routers  because it's MUCH
cheaper to buy something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is
pay for power to feel a machine that uses waaay more than you need
to.
With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it being use to
100% capacity you'd only get charged $6.32 per year, but it would
most likely be closer to it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:

Months
Number of Days
Kwh Cost
Machine Load in Kilo watts
Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)
Total Cost (Cost per time period)

May, Jun, Sep, Oct
122
0.1091
0.0076
0.00082916
0.01989984
2.42778048

Jul,Aug
62
0.1157
0.0076
0.00087932
0.02110368
1.30842816

Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April
182
0.0782
0.0076
0.00059432
0.01426368
2.59598976

Grand Total
6.3321984

Brian Cluff

On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply,
the machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning,
8 VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never
drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years
and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These
days, that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My
Mac mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I
don’t even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There
are really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
1. The refrigerator
2. The stove/oven
3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either runs
on wall warts or only gets used occasionally. In fact, we spend less
than $150 a month here for electric. Now, if I put that Athlon X2
back into service, we might see $10 a month in extra use. I am still
contemplating putting it back up and using it as my go to linux
development machine.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Utilities Dept.

On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

Hi,

I just read this quote about the electrical costs to run a web
server from home:

Cost: While it may sound cheaper to use that computer lying around
doing nothing when creating your web server, when you factor in the
cost of powering an old computer 24 hours a day, it can get very
expensive. A 250W desktop computer running 24 hours per day at 12
cents per KW/h is a whopping $262.00 per year!

---
I think their math is wrong.

The average residential electricity rate in Chandler is 10.85¢/kWh.

I'm thinking a low traffic PHP web server running on an old Dell
with a 400 watt power supply is not using but maybe 100 watts on
average.  I've read that the computer should use no more than half
the power supply capacity.  Is this correct?

If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100 watts
* 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.

I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

---
PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

-

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Retro64XYZ via PLUG-discuss]

Dreamhost is suffering a lot of security issues and they have been 
getting their users blanket banned by "security" companies. So every 
time someone forgets to update WordPress, your site is going to end up 
on a Force point bulletin, and all your users are going to get a big red 
"DONOTGOHERE" warning from Chrome. They also provide no support for 
this, so you are on your own with arguing with someone in Thailand that 
you don't deserve to be on their malicious website list that 
inexplicably is being used by the government to decide who is and who is 
not a bad actor.


On 7/23/21 9:35 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I am curious, they have treated me very well over the years.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:29 AM Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss 
> wrote:


Is Dreamhost a terrible abuser of privacy?

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:24 AM Aaron Jones via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

Please use literally anyone but Dreamhost.


On Jul 23, 2021, at 8:13 AM, Stephen Partington via
PLUG-discuss mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


I hit send too soon, All of this hosting aside. I have 3
dedicated servers, one is a dual Xeon server with 80-some GB
ram, it runs as a VM host for all sorts of things for me. and
2 mac mini's one is a windows server (I know but
professionally speaking this is a good thing for me to keep
in touch with). and the other is a linux server. they are a
great low-power solution. (look for older 2012 models if you
go this route)


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stephen Partington
mailto:cryptwo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

For cost/efficiency, it is hard to beat some of the
online hosting options. Dreamhost has a shared plan with
unlimited everything and a domain for 9 per month (down
to 3 for 1 or 3 years paid upfront) 10 per month Ifor a VPS.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Brian Cluff via
PLUG-discuss mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

I think you'll find that server of yours used closer
to $500 than $120. Based on the 600watt number that
you gave your usage would look like this on SRP right
now under their normal flat rate plan:
Months  Number of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in
Kilo watts  Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)   Total Cost
(Cost per time period)
May, Jun, Sep, Oct  122 0.1091  0.6 0.06546
1.57104 191.66688
Jul,Aug 62  0.1157  0.6 0.06942 1.66608 
103.29696
Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April  182 0.0782  0.6
0.04692 1.12608 204.94656





Grand Total 499.9104


Even if you machine used half the power you specified
it would still be about twice what you thought it was.

I always recommend that people don't use their old
computers when it comes to use cases like using them
for routers  because it's MUCH cheaper to buy
something like a PI or a dedicated router than it is
pay for power to feel a machine that uses waaay more
than you need to.
With a raspberry pi under worst case useage with it
being use to 100% capacity you'd only get charged
$6.32 per year, but it would most likely be closer to
it's idling cost of $2.82 for power:
Months  Number of Days  Kwh CostMachine Load in
Kilo watts  Cost per hour(KWH cost times wattage)
Cost per day(Cost per hour time 24 hours)   Total Cost
(Cost per time period)
May, Jun, Sep, Oct  122 0.1091  0.0076  0.00082916
0.01989984  2.42778048
Jul,Aug 62  0.1157  0.0076  0.00087932  
0.02110368
1.30842816
Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, April  182 0.0782  0.0076
0.00059432  0.01426368  2.59598976





Grand Total 6.3321984



Brian Cluff

On 7/21/21 3:50 PM, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W 
supply, the machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8 
VMWare insta

Re: cost to operate.

[Austin Godber via PLUG-discuss]

60 W sounds possible.  I have a fairly beefy videocard GTX1080Ti, on my
machine, it idles at about 57W, spikes up to maybe 180 W when doing
something computationally difficult.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 10:22 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

>
> Based on what we have been discussing I assume my 400 watt power supply
> may be drawing much less power based on actual usage.  Therefore maybe
> my computer might only be using 60 watts... making the cost lower.
>
> Your thoughts.
>
>
>
> On 2021-07-22 21:39, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I usually use a mental rule of thumb that for every watt of 24/7/365
> > power consumption costs about $1 per year. Obviously this is failing
> > as electric rates keep going up. So to first order of magnitude a 100
> > watt server would cost around $100 a year, but if the server was using
> > the whole 400 watts it would cost more like $400 a year.
> >
> >>> If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100
> > watts *>> 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.
> >>>
> >>> I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.
> >
> >KINDNESS
> >
> > is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for
> >
> >FREE
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> ---
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Re: cost to operate.

[Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss]

Power supply ratings are their maximum output they are capable of. 
Computer power supplies are going to be oversized (if the computer was 
built right) otherwise they wouldn't last for very long and would run 
very hot.  Computers, especially modern ones,  power usage is going to 
vary wildly from one second to the next based on it's load and what's 
connected to it.  If your system is just sitting there, on, doing 
nothing, it will likely be under 100watts, especially if the monitor is 
off, asleep or non-existent.  Servers will tend to draw more, because 
they have a lot more fans, hard drives, and power profiles that don't 
allow for them throttle as much.


Even if you do have a system that only uses 50 watts normally, I still 
recommend getting something low power like a raspberry pi to serve your  
house because even if you have to buy the PI and the existing computer 
is free, the PI will quickly pay for itself and after that it's almost 
free to run it... and a lot more quiet and you also don't have to pay 
for your air conditioner to cool off the room that your higher power 
computer heated up which is also a very real cost that hasn't really 
been mentioned yet.


I had to argue with an electrician about power supply sizes when I build 
a computer lab with custom built computers with massively oversized 
power supplies.  He went around adding out all the wattage ratings of 
the power supplies and decided that my 30 computer lab would require a 
minimum of 15 circuits in order to not pop breakers.  I never could 
convince him that I was right, and that the breakers wouldn't pop and he 
finally did want I asked him to do which was to add 4 circuits, which we 
never has any problems with.


Brian Cluff

On 7/23/21 10:22 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:


Based on what we have been discussing I assume my 400 watt power 
supply may be drawing much less power based on actual usage. Therefore 
maybe my computer might only be using 60 watts... making the cost lower.


Your thoughts.



On 2021-07-22 21:39, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I usually use a mental rule of thumb that for every watt of 24/7/365
power consumption costs about $1 per year. Obviously this is failing
as electric rates keep going up. So to first order of magnitude a 100
watt server would cost around $100 a year, but if the server was using
the whole 400 watts it would cost more like $400 a year.


If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100

watts *>> 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.


I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.


   KINDNESS

is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for

   FREE
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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

That's actually pretty decent, 2x m.2 disks, nice gpu, but still only 2x
sodimm slots sadly.  I don't think they do 64gb sodimm sticks in ddr4, so
still stuck at 64gb with 2x 32gb.

Memory is always my largest problem, I still commonly OOM with 64gb of
ram.  Occasionally I would even OOM my 128gb desktop.  Yeah, I *could* use
less ram, but it hampers my ability to work with various customers and/or
various technologies in the name of virtual appliances I commonly run for
testing, tinkering, and learning.

-mb


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:32 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> The Dell G5 5505 is the closest i have seen from one of the big box crew.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:01 AM Stephen Partington 
> wrote:
>
>> I would love that setup as well. This ThinkPad is the closest I have seen
>> to date.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:47 AM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> My big wants are 4x sodimm slots for ram (ie. I can load it with 128gb
>>> ram with 4x 32gb sticks), 2x m.2 ssd's (raid 1), and 4k display with a
>>> decent gpu, at least better than intel integrated crap.  Much like your
>>> beefy thinkpad, just without intel vs. nvidia weirdness that never works
>>> right anyways with a decent gpu, at least under linux.  Something
>>> lightweight too akin to my xps15, I don't need a 10lb laptop to haul when I
>>> do go onsite with customers to install their networks in a data center.
>>> I'm old and it hurts now.
>>>
>>> I figure in theory AMD + Radeon will work much more smoothly, and offer
>>> something better than typically shitty intel graphics or adding nvidia atop
>>> intel that requires prime that never works suitably.  I don't game a lot,
>>> but with steam proton I was finally able to start playing decent games on
>>> my desktop before it died, my xps15's intel gpu just doesn't have the umph
>>> to deal, and prime is just a basketcase that usually crashes things to try.
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 8:21 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
 What would you call a decent ryzen laptop? I have seen several that i
 find very nice.

 On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 9:20 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
 plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it 
> without
> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
> under ~10 bucks
>  anyways if
> I have to.
>
> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of
> these.
>
> -mb
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Framework Newsletter 
> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>
>
> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop
>
>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌
> [image: framework logo]
> 
> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>
> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy 
> to
> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, 
> with
> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
>
> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
> laptop is one of the smartest

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Mark Phillips via PLUG-discuss]

Keith,

All things being equal, I would use the laptop. You can disable the screen
and even close the lid, although I leave mine up about 30% for cooling.

There will come a time long after you install the OS that something will
happen and the computer won't boot. You then need to (1) find that old
monitor; (2) find the right cable; (3) find the right mouse; (3) pull out
the computer from whatever corner it has been relegated to since you
haven't touched it in, maybe years?; (4) hook up the monitor, mouse, etc.
and diagnose the problem. With the laptop, just fold up the screen, reboot,
hit f-something to get into safe boot, and diagnose the problem. The fun
part is when your partner donates that old monitor to Goodwill in an effort
to "clean up the clutter"if ssh doesn't work, now you are shopping at
Goodwill for an old monitor.

This story is based on real life experiences. Only the names were changed
to protect the innocent.

Mark

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Thanks David!!
>
>
> On 2021-07-21 19:26, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > If this is just for learning, do you want or need it to run 24/7/365?
> > If not, you can shut it off when you don’t need it if you’re
> > concerned about power.
>
> The goal is for it to run 24/7 serving up one of my domains.
>
> >
> > Note that a lot of old PCs have power supplies where the fans run all
> > the time. They can end up consuming quite a bit of power.
> >
> > You might consider a 2012-vintage Mac Mini. It already has Unix
> > built-in and everything you need to run as a server.
> >
> > They’re between $150 and $250 on eBay and sometimes as low as $100.
> >
> > FWIW, thru most of the 90’s I had a little box I ran as a dedicated
> > server at a co-lo facility in town.
> >
> > It was a mini-ITX with a 600 MHz x86 clone chip, 256 MB of RAM, a 20GB
> > HDD, and 10MB ethernet. I ran Debian on it. After the third HDD died,
> > I moved to a reseller-type WHM/cPanel hosting account that was a LOT
> > cheaper per month. (My current one is less than $20/mo.)
> >
> > (The co-lo facility’s biggest monthly expense was their A/C bill.)
> >
>
> I have too much old hardware.  I was going to use an old Dell i3...
> however I am thinking of using one of my old laptops.
>
> Both have their merits.
>
> The laptop has a build in monitor... however I do not need the monitor
> once the O/S is installed.  I then use SSH.
>
> I'm thinking the Dell mini tower has a faster bus and memory. And it has
> 8GB of RAM vs 4GB of RAM on the Laptop.  I'm guessing the faster bus and
> RAM will make a difference.
>
> They both have 2 cores and 4 threads.
>
> Both CPUs benchmark the same and they have the exact same SSD.
>
> I'm thinking the mini tower is better.  I do not think I will ever use
> 8GB of RAM on a home web server.
>
> Given what everyone is saying, the amount of power used is somewhat
> dependent on demand.  Low demand = low power usage.
>
>
>
> > The Raspberry Pi Zero W costs $10, and has these features:
> >
> >  • 1GHz, single-core CPU
> >
> >  • 512MB RAM
> >
> >  • 802.11 b/g/n wireless LAN
> >
> >  • Bluetooth 4.1
> >
> >  • Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)
> >
> >  • Mini HDMI and USB On-The-Go ports
> >
> >  • Micro USB power
> >
> >  • HAT-compatible 40-pin header
> >
> >  • Composite video and reset headers
> >
> >  • CSI camera connector
> >
> > It consumes 120-170 mA (but can source over 1A to USB), so can run off
> > of a USB battery pack if needed.
> >
> > This puppy has more power and features than that mini-ITX machine I
> > had!
> >
> > It comes with a ready-to-run Linux on an SD card and fits into a box
> > about the size of a pack of cigarettes. No fan is needed AFAIK.
> >
> > You can plug nearly any size storage you want into the USB port,
> > although the SD card can be used for additional storage.
>
> I would like to try a Raspberry Pi ... maybe a future project.
>
>
> >
> > -David Schwartz
> >
> >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Eric,
> >>
> >> I assume you live in the valley? And you use a master cool
> >> evaporative cooler... Off topic question - Does your master cool,
> >> cool your house reasonably in the summer and more so during the
> >> monsoons?
> >>
> >> On 2021-07-21 15:50, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >> Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply,
> >> the
> >> machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8
> >> VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine never
> >> drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few years
> >> and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These
> >> days,
> >> that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My Mac
> >> mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I
> >> don’t
> >> even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There are
> >> really only 3 hi

Re: cost to operate.

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

I understand a little bit more, now.  Thanks!!

On 2021-07-23 11:02, Austin Godber via PLUG-discuss wrote:

60 W sounds possible.  I have a fairly beefy videocard GTX1080Ti, on
my machine, it idles at about 57W, spikes up to maybe 180 W when doing
something computationally difficult.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 10:22 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:


Based on what we have been discussing I assume my 400 watt power
supply
may be drawing much less power based on actual usage.  Therefore
maybe
my computer might only be using 60 watts... making the cost lower.

Your thoughts.

On 2021-07-22 21:39, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I usually use a mental rule of thumb that for every watt of

24/7/365

power consumption costs about $1 per year. Obviously this is

failing

as electric rates keep going up. So to first order of magnitude a

100

watt server would cost around $100 a year, but if the server was

using

the whole 400 watts it would cost more like $400 a year.


If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100

watts *>> 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.


I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.


KINDNESS

is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for

FREE
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Re: cost to operate.

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Thank You Brian!!  PI maybe a project down the road.

On 2021-07-23 11:16, Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Power supply ratings are their maximum output they are capable of.
Computer power supplies are going to be oversized (if the computer was
built right) otherwise they wouldn't last for very long and would run
very hot.  Computers, especially modern ones,  power usage is going to
vary wildly from one second to the next based on it's load and what's
connected to it.  If your system is just sitting there, on, doing
nothing, it will likely be under 100watts, especially if the monitor
is off, asleep or non-existent.  Servers will tend to draw more,
because they have a lot more fans, hard drives, and power profiles
that don't allow for them throttle as much.

Even if you do have a system that only uses 50 watts normally, I still
recommend getting something low power like a raspberry pi to serve
your  house because even if you have to buy the PI and the existing
computer is free, the PI will quickly pay for itself and after that
it's almost free to run it... and a lot more quiet and you also don't
have to pay for your air conditioner to cool off the room that your
higher power computer heated up which is also a very real cost that
hasn't really been mentioned yet.

I had to argue with an electrician about power supply sizes when I
build a computer lab with custom built computers with massively
oversized power supplies.  He went around adding out all the wattage
ratings of the power supplies and decided that my 30 computer lab
would require a minimum of 15 circuits in order to not pop breakers. 
I never could convince him that I was right, and that the breakers
wouldn't pop and he finally did want I asked him to do which was to
add 4 circuits, which we never has any problems with.

Brian Cluff

On 7/23/21 10:22 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:


Based on what we have been discussing I assume my 400 watt power 
supply may be drawing much less power based on actual usage. Therefore 
maybe my computer might only be using 60 watts... making the cost 
lower.


Your thoughts.



On 2021-07-22 21:39, Mike Bushroe via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I usually use a mental rule of thumb that for every watt of 24/7/365
power consumption costs about $1 per year. Obviously this is failing
as electric rates keep going up. So to first order of magnitude a 100
watt server would cost around $100 a year, but if the server was 
using

the whole 400 watts it would cost more like $400 a year.


If my home web server is using 100 watts an hour that mean 100

watts *>> 30 days * 24 hours or 72K watts.


I'm thinking 72 * .1085 = $7.81 a month.


   KINDNESS

is most VALUABLE when it is GIVEN AWAY for

   FREE
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Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Those are good points Mark.  I home office.  No partners and my wife 
does not mess with my computers.


Lots of pros and cons.

Thanks!!


On 2021-07-23 11:50, Mark Phillips via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Keith,

All things being equal, I would use the laptop. You can disable the
screen and even close the lid, although I leave mine up about 30% for
cooling.

There will come a time long after you install the OS that something
will happen and the computer won't boot. You then need to (1) find
that old monitor; (2) find the right cable; (3) find the right mouse;
(3) pull out the computer from whatever corner it has been relegated
to since you haven't touched it in, maybe years?; (4) hook up the
monitor, mouse, etc. and diagnose the problem. With the laptop, just
fold up the screen, reboot, hit f-something to get into safe boot, and
diagnose the problem. The fun part is when your partner donates that
old monitor to Goodwill in an effort to "clean up the clutter"if
ssh doesn't work, now you are shopping at Goodwill for an old monitor.

This story is based on real life experiences. Only the names were
changed to protect the innocent.

Mark

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:


Thanks David!!

On 2021-07-21 19:26, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:

If this is just for learning, do you want or need it to run

24/7/365?

If not, you can shut it off when you don’t need it if you’re
concerned about power.


The goal is for it to run 24/7 serving up one of my domains.



Note that a lot of old PCs have power supplies where the fans run

all

the time. They can end up consuming quite a bit of power.

You might consider a 2012-vintage Mac Mini. It already has Unix
built-in and everything you need to run as a server.

They’re between $150 and $250 on eBay and sometimes as low as

$100.


FWIW, thru most of the 90’s I had a little box I ran as a

dedicated

server at a co-lo facility in town.

It was a mini-ITX with a 600 MHz x86 clone chip, 256 MB of RAM, a

20GB

HDD, and 10MB ethernet. I ran Debian on it. After the third HDD

died,

I moved to a reseller-type WHM/cPanel hosting account that was a

LOT

cheaper per month. (My current one is less than $20/mo.)

(The co-lo facility’s biggest monthly expense was their A/C

bill.)




I have too much old hardware.  I was going to use an old Dell i3...
however I am thinking of using one of my old laptops.

Both have their merits.

The laptop has a build in monitor... however I do not need the
monitor
once the O/S is installed.  I then use SSH.

I'm thinking the Dell mini tower has a faster bus and memory. And it
has
8GB of RAM vs 4GB of RAM on the Laptop.  I'm guessing the faster bus
and
RAM will make a difference.

They both have 2 cores and 4 threads.

Both CPUs benchmark the same and they have the exact same SSD.

I'm thinking the mini tower is better.  I do not think I will ever
use
8GB of RAM on a home web server.

Given what everyone is saying, the amount of power used is somewhat
dependent on demand.  Low demand = low power usage.


The Raspberry Pi Zero W costs $10, and has these features:

• 1GHz, single-core CPU

• 512MB RAM

• 802.11 b/g/n wireless LAN

• Bluetooth 4.1

• Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)

• Mini HDMI and USB On-The-Go ports

• Micro USB power

• HAT-compatible 40-pin header

• Composite video and reset headers

• CSI camera connector

It consumes 120-170 mA (but can source over 1A to USB), so can run

off

of a USB battery pack if needed.

This puppy has more power and features than that mini-ITX machine

I

had!

It comes with a ready-to-run Linux on an SD card and fits into a

box

about the size of a pack of cigarettes. No fan is needed AFAIK.

You can plug nearly any size storage you want into the USB port,
although the SD card can be used for additional storage.


I would like to try a Raspberry Pi ... maybe a future project.



-David Schwartz


On Jul 21, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

Hi Eric,

I assume you live in the valley? And you use a master cool
evaporative cooler... Off topic question - Does your master cool,
cool your house reasonably in the summer and more so during the
monsoons?

On 2021-07-21 15:50, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
Back when I ran a home server on my Athlon X2 with 1500 W supply,
the
machine never drew that much. Even with several disks spinning, 8
VMWare instances going and a few other goodies, that machine

never

drew more than 600w at maximum. I kept it live 24/7 for a few

years

and it added less than $120 yearly to the electrical bill. These
days,
that machine is out of service and is only good for parts. My Mac
mini, which draws at most 100 W under full load is on 24/7 and I
don’t
even see it add that much to the electrical bill here. There are
really only 3 high draw appliances in this house now:
1. The refrigerator
2. The stove/oven
3. The master cool evaporative cooler. Everything else either

runs

on
wall warts or only gets used occasiona

Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Ted Gould via PLUG-discuss]

On Jul 23 2021, at 1:50 pm, Mark Phillips via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:
> There will come a time long after you install the OS that something will 
> happen and the computer won't boot. You then need to (1) find that old 
> monitor; (2) find the right cable; (3) find the right mouse; (3) pull out the 
> computer from whatever corner it has been relegated to since you haven't 
> touched it in, maybe years?; (4) hook up the monitor, mouse, etc. and 
> diagnose the problem. With the laptop, just fold up the screen, reboot, hit 
> f-something to get into safe boot, and diagnose the problem. The fun part is 
> when your partner donates that old monitor to Goodwill in an effort to "clean 
> up the clutter"if ssh doesn't work, now you are shopping at Goodwill for 
> an old monitor.
>

A good solution for this situation is PiKVM: https://pikvm.org/
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Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss]

Your shellscript would be perfect for me. Could you please post it?

SteveT

Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:09:34 -0700

>I just use a shell script with a bunch of iptables rules in it not 
>for everyone, but it works for me.
>
>Brian Cluff
>
>On 7/22/21 9:28 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> Do you have a RaspbPI working as a NATting firewall? If so, what
>> software and what techniques did you use? On casual research, IPFire
>> looks good. I have a 10 year old computer burning electricity and
>> heating the house, and would like to replace it with a Raspberry Pi
>> if possible.
>>
>> In my situation the LAN is Gigabit, and the Internet is 70Mbit down,
>> about 2.5Mbit up.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: using a thumb drive as a partition.

[Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss]

Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 08:19:35
-0700


>
>i still find their write performance leaves something to be desired so
>i would test it out and see if it meets your needs.

If the thumb drive is USB3 and it's connected to a USB3 port, the write
performance leaves a lot less somethings to be desired.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: using a thumb drive as a partition.

[Michael via PLUG-discuss]

It will be a USB3 drive but the port might only be a 2 if that!

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:50 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:
>
> Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 08:19:35
> -0700
>
>
> >
> >i still find their write performance leaves something to be desired so
> >i would test it out and see if it meets your needs.
>
> If the thumb drive is USB3 and it's connected to a USB3 port, the write
> performance leaves a lot less somethings to be desired.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> ---
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> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss



-- 
:-)~MIKE~(-:
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Re: Electrical costs to run a home web server

[Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss]

It's extremely specific to my needs that nobody else would have any use 
for it.  It's best to develop your own based on your own needs.


Sorry,
Brian Cluff

On 7/23/21 1:47 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Your shellscript would be perfect for me. Could you please post it?

SteveT

Brian Cluff via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:09:34 -0700


I just use a shell script with a bunch of iptables rules in it not
for everyone, but it works for me.

Brian Cluff

On 7/22/21 9:28 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Do you have a RaspbPI working as a NATting firewall? If so, what
software and what techniques did you use? On casual research, IPFire
looks good. I have a 10 year old computer burning electricity and
heating the house, and would like to replace it with a Raspberry Pi
if possible.

In my situation the LAN is Gigabit, and the Internet is 70Mbit down,
about 2.5Mbit up.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

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Re: using a thumb drive as a partition.

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

this is something mike will have to determine, I find even in good USB 3
drives the write performance leaves something to be desired, But I am
spoiled


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 1:53 PM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> It will be a USB3 drive but the port might only be a 2 if that!
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:50 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>  wrote:
> >
> > Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 08:19:35
> > -0700
> >
> >
> > >
> > >i still find their write performance leaves something to be desired so
> > >i would test it out and see if it meets your needs.
> >
> > If the thumb drive is USB3 and it's connected to a USB3 port, the write
> > performance leaves a lot less somethings to be desired.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> > Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
> --
> :-)~MIKE~(-:
> ---
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-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss]

Got an idea of how much they cost?
I have an old Dell here with a semi-broken keyboard and windows 7. I need 
something newer. If I can find a replacement internal keyboard for the dell, I 
will slap linux on it and call it good.

Otherwise, I will need a newer machine for some things that I do.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, equipment acquisitions dept.

> On Jul 22, 2021, at 9:19 PM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now shipping 
> product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without an os (ie 
> microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for under ~10 bucks 
>  anyways if I have 
> to.
> 
> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
> 
> -mb
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Framework Newsletter  >
> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
> 
> 
>   
> 
> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
> 
> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework Laptop 
> and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC unanimously 
> voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our timing couldn't be 
> better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to repair product.  
> There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with more coming in the 
> next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
> “A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular laptop 
> is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”
> – Lori Grunin, CNET 
> 
>  ( 8.5/10 )
> “It’s the ultimate Right to Repair laptop”
> – Gordon Ung, PCWorld 
> 
> “The Framework Laptop is more than just [a] worthwhile experiment in 
> modularity, it’s also a great laptop.”
> – Luke Larson, Digital Trends 
> 

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

They aren't cheap, about $2k for a top spec box maxed out without the
microsoft tax there, but available as cheap as you're willing to sacrifice
as the base model was around a grand with windoze home.  I happen to have a
couple 1tb samsung m.2 1tb's floating around unused, I would reclaim to
save some cost, but actually what I like is that they offer a
bring-your-own option.

A bit pricier than I can probably find an xps 13 or 15 box for on refurb or
coupon deals, but I like the concept more than the price.  Combinations of
ports are always annoying on my laptops, I rather like they're adjustable
as just usb-c to whatever.

-mb


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 3:14 PM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Got an idea of how much they cost?
> I have an old Dell here with a semi-broken keyboard and windows 7. I need
> something newer. If I can find a replacement internal keyboard for the
> dell, I will slap linux on it and call it good.
>
> Otherwise, I will need a newer machine for some things that I do.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, equipment acquisitions
> dept.
>
> On Jul 22, 2021, at 9:19 PM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
> under ~10 bucks 
> anyways if I have to.
>
> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
>
> -mb
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Framework Newsletter 
> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>
>
> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop
>
>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
> [image: framework logo]
> 
> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>
> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
> laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*
> – Lori Grunin, CNET
> 
> ( 8.5/10 )
> *“It’s the ultimate Right to Repair laptop”*
> – Gordon Ung, PCWorld
> 

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[greg zegan via PLUG-discuss]

 https://frame.work/products/laptop/configuration/edit


On Friday, July 23, 2021, 07:02:16 PM EDT, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:  
 
 They aren't cheap, about $2k for a top spec box maxed out without the 
microsoft tax there, but available as cheap as you're willing to sacrifice as 
the base model was around a grand with windoze home.  I happen to have a couple 
1tb samsung m.2 1tb's floating around unused, I would reclaim to save some 
cost, but actually what I like is that they offer a bring-your-own option.

A bit pricier than I can probably find an xps 13 or 15 box for on refurb or 
coupon deals, but I like the concept more than the price.  Combinations of 
ports are always annoying on my laptops, I rather like they're adjustable as 
just usb-c to whatever.
-mb

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 3:14 PM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:

Got an idea of how much they cost?I have an old Dell here with a semi-broken 
keyboard and windows 7. I need something newer. If I can find a replacement 
internal keyboard for the dell, I will slap linux on it and call it good.
Otherwise, I will need a newer machine for some things that I do.
-EricFrom the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, equipment acquisitions 
dept.


On Jul 22, 2021, at 9:19 PM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:
I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now shipping 
product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without an os (ie 
microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for under ~10 bucks 
anyways if I have to.

If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
-mb

-- Forwarded message -
From: Framework Newsletter 
Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!


We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework Laptop ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
| 
| 
| 
| 
|  |

 |


| 
| 


The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!


 |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework Laptop 
and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC unanimously 
voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our timing couldn't be 
better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to repair product.  There 
is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with more coming in the next 
weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are: |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| “A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular laptop 
is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”– Lori Grunin, CNET ( 
8.5/10 ) |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| “It’s the ultimate Right to Repair laptop”– Gordon Ung, PCWorld |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| “The Framework Laptop is more than just [a] worthwhile experiment in 
modularity, it’s also a great laptop.”– Luke Larson, Digital Trends ( 4/5 ) |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| Reviewers loved the freedom to repair and upgrade, the Expansion Card system, 
CPU performance, keyboard feel, webcam quality, and more.  Of course, inside of 
Framework, we gravitate towards the critical feedback that points us to where 
to do better.  We take every bit of feedback seriously, and we want your 
thoughts as you start using your Framework Laptop.  This lets us know where to 
focus for future improvements, whether that is for firmware updates, modules, 
or next products.  A wonderful thing about our product philosophy is that 
improvements can go into replacement parts and upgrades that every existing 
user can pick up and swap to, rather than needing to wait around and pay for an 
entirely new product. |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| We’re grateful to each of you who have ordered already, and we’re looking 
forward to getting your Framework Laptop to you.  Batch 1 pre-orders for July 
delivery continue to ship out from our warehouse each day.  We’ll start Batch 2 
shipments for August delivery soon after.  We have a small number of Batch 2 
Framework Laptop and Framework Laptop DIY Edition units currently available for 
sale, with just a fully refundable $100 deposit due today.  If you pre-order 
now, some of you will be able to receive your order within 3 – 4 weeks. |

 |


| 
|  |

 |


| 
| As proud as we are of the Framework Laptop (and we’re extremely proud!), the 
greatest thing we have created over the last 18 months is the team that built 
it.  It takes an incredible team to build an excellent product this complex and 
deliver it on time.  We’re hiring on all fronts to continue developing the 
Framework Laptop ecosystem and initiate our next categories.  Let us know if 
you know anyone who may be interested in helping us build products that are 
bet

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

System76 has some respectable options as does Lenovo. I think you can even
get the business machines like thinkpad and think book with Linux instead
of ms.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:02 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> They aren't cheap, about $2k for a top spec box maxed out without the
> microsoft tax there, but available as cheap as you're willing to sacrifice
> as the base model was around a grand with windoze home.  I happen to have a
> couple 1tb samsung m.2 1tb's floating around unused, I would reclaim to
> save some cost, but actually what I like is that they offer a
> bring-your-own option.
>
> A bit pricier than I can probably find an xps 13 or 15 box for on refurb
> or coupon deals, but I like the concept more than the price.  Combinations
> of ports are always annoying on my laptops, I rather like they're
> adjustable as just usb-c to whatever.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 3:14 PM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Got an idea of how much they cost?
>> I have an old Dell here with a semi-broken keyboard and windows 7. I need
>> something newer. If I can find a replacement internal keyboard for the
>> dell, I will slap linux on it and call it good.
>>
>> Otherwise, I will need a newer machine for some things that I do.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, equipment acquisitions
>> dept.
>>
>> On Jul 22, 2021, at 9:19 PM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>> I posted before about these, pretty neat, open-ish hardware, and now
>> shipping product.  I rather like the modular ports and I can buy it without
>> an os (ie microsoft tax).  I can buy my own real windoze license for
>> under ~10 bucks 
>> anyways if I have to.
>>
>> If I don't find a decent ryzen laptop soon, I might consider one of these.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Framework Newsletter 
>> Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 5:03 PM
>> Subject: The Framework Laptop is now shipping!
>>
>>
>> We're excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>> Laptop
>>
>>  ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ 
>> ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌ ‌
>> [image: framework logo]
>> 
>> The Framework Laptop is now shipping, and press reviews are up!
>> [image: Framework Laptop on desk]
>>
>> We’re excited to see the first press reviews go live for the Framework
>> Laptop and the first orders land on your doorsteps today!  With the FTC
>> unanimously voting to enforce the Right to Repair just yesterday, our
>> timing couldn't be better for delivering a great, high-performance, easy to
>> repair product.  There is a ton of amazing material to read and watch, with
>> more coming in the next weeks.  Some of our favorite quotes so far are:
>> *“A poster child for the right-to-repair movement, Framework’s modular
>> laptop is one of the smartest designs I’ve seen in a long time.”*
>> – Lori Grunin, CNET
>> 

Re: using a thumb drive as a partition.

[Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss]

Your device access will be slow.

Using a USB3 device on a USB2 port is as bad as just using a USB2
device. If the computer doesn't have any USB3 port, you might want to
buy one to fit your available [ISA/PCI/PCIe] slot.

SteveT


Michael via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 16:52:49 -0400

>It will be a USB3 drive but the port might only be a 2 if that!
>
>On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:50 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
> wrote:
>>
>> Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 08:19:35
>> -0700
>>
>>  
>> >
>> >i still find their write performance leaves something to be desired
>> >so i would test it out and see if it meets your needs.  
>>
>> If the thumb drive is USB3 and it's connected to a USB3 port, the
>> write performance leaves a lot less somethings to be desired.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss  
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Hackers for Freedom

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

I found this video on Amazon Prime to be very interesting.

https://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Freedom-Richard-M-Stallman/dp/B07ZG74R6J
---
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