Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
I'm in the opposite realm - was a programmer and kind of an admin (glorified script kiddie?), went into networking, and then got back into programming, because it was a "thing" to automate networks. It's now my full time job, and I enjoy it a ton. The network to code slack is full of network engineers who have become that new hybrid. Sorry if that doesn't help from the opposite direction! - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:57 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off > from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common > thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing > up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make > apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", which I find weird as > that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse > crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some > are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work > out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd > know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse > enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. > > Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know > some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people > can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, > they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, > some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and > experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what > others don't as a result. > > Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but > most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below > around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well > versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if > you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to > make your life easier. > > -mb > > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a >> programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. >> I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and >> maybe that is not what he is talking about. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s >> >> How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the >> hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types >> of jobs can they get? >> >> He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server >> automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? >> >> I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and >> ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. >> >> Your Thoughts? >> >> Thanks!! >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", which I find weird as that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what others don't as a result. Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to make your life easier. -mb On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a > programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. > I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and > maybe that is not what he is talking about. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s > > How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the > hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types > of jobs can they get? > > He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server > automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? > > I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and > ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. > > Your Thoughts? > > Thanks!! > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
Hi, I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and maybe that is not what he is talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types of jobs can they get? He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. Your Thoughts? Thanks!! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Jan topics?
Am 07. Jan, 2022 schwätzte Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss so: moin moin Steve, der.hans via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 7 Jan 2022 06:54:01 + (UTC) moin moin, anyone have a presentation they'd like to give next Thursday? I'm tapped out right now, so not likely to have something this month. You guys meet on Jitsi, don't you? If so, I could give the same We generally use Big Blue Button. Like jitsi, it's Free Software. I have a jitsi account we can use if we need. Inkscape Beginning and Intermediate presentation I gave Wednesday night at GoLUG. It was well received, and I don't think any Phoenix people were there, although I can't be sure. That would be great. I wanted to make it, but had a time conflict. It took from 7:00pm to 9:30pm at GoLUG, and if I remember you usually quit after 2 hours, so I'd need to cut back on one example and quicken the pace. We usually limit it to 2 hours for in person presentations. It's not as urgent for virtual meetings if you need more time. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, see http://golug.info, and go to the "current meeting". I'll cut the block diagram exercise, quicken the pace, and try to keep everyone on topic (you know how Geeks are). Who? Us? :) ciao, der.hans SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- # https://www.LuftHans.com https://www.PhxLinux.org # I only eat free-range vegetables that were hunted down and slain by # a member of my immediate family. -- der.hans--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Scripting/automation method/language
A lot depends on complexity. A few questions: 1) Is this easier to understand, or harder to understand as Bash 2) Is it more or less work to maintain as Bash versus a more general purpose language 3) What options exist for general purpose languages to accomplish the task Depending on answers to these, you might stay with Bash, if it's not too hard to follow and not too much more work to maintain. If you have large and/or complex processing, you might want to use something like Perl (which is a required core system dependency for most distributions), Awk, or Python. Depending on other software routinely installed on the systems, you might also have the option to use Go, or anything that compiles to LLVM. You might also find that Python is already installed; perhaps just with the binary named python3 or similar. I don't know of too many distributions that don't require python currently. You might also package the scripts with any required dependencies (languages like Python or larger toolsets like Ansible and Terraform) in a container, and run the contained package in open mode (e.g. like a flatpak) on the destination system. This has the added advantage that these management scripts can be read in, executed, then removed cleanly as needed; reducing the need to keep yet another item up to date on the machines. On 2022-01-07 11:21 AM, Seabass via PLUG-discuss wrote: > Hello Linux folk. > > I'm making some bash scripts, mostly for templating purposes. > In the past, I've used bash scripts to make basic configs of systems. > > Eventually I went to ansible, but came across trouble pushing to some OSs, as > they needed python installed to work with ansible, but was not installed by > default. (I might be misremembering the tool used if this is wrong, but this > doesn't matter too much) > > I am asked the obvious question of "if you are templating entire files, why > aren't you using something *other* than bash like python?". > > My answer was that my computer doesn't have python installed, and though I > know > most do, I don't want to force admins to install python (and get root > permissions and approval by the security team to install and etc...) to use > my > utility. I'd rather it be usable immediately, which means it will always be > usable if written in bash. > > So I ask you admins and general users this: what do you think about this > situation? > > Is it worth writing the program in python for possibly more readable and > easier > to write/maintain code? > Or is shell scripting more worth it for the accessibility to any POSIX system > without need for extra work to install, run, then uninstall afterward any > other > scripting language? > Is this situation rare? > Or is the answer just going to be different dependent on what the scripts do? > > What do you think? > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Scripting/automation method/language
Hello Linux folk. I'm making some bash scripts, mostly for templating purposes. In the past, I've used bash scripts to make basic configs of systems. Eventually I went to ansible, but came across trouble pushing to some OSs, as they needed python installed to work with ansible, but was not installed by default. (I might be misremembering the tool used if this is wrong, but this doesn't matter too much) I am asked the obvious question of "if you are templating entire files, why aren't you using something \*other\* than bash like python?". My answer was that my computer doesn't have python installed, and though I know most do, I don't want to force admins to install python (and get root permissions and approval by the security team to install and etc...) to use my utility. I'd rather it be usable immediately, which means it will always be usable if written in bash. So I ask you admins and general users this: what do you think about this situation? Is it worth writing the program in python for possibly more readable and easier to write/maintain code? Or is shell scripting more worth it for the accessibility to any POSIX system without need for extra work to install, run, then uninstall afterward any other scripting language? Is this situation rare? Or is the answer just going to be different dependent on what the scripts do? What do you think? publickey - EmailAddress(s=PrivateSeaBass@pm.me) - 0x7570D802.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Jan topics?
der.hans via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 7 Jan 2022 06:54:01 + (UTC) >moin moin, > >anyone have a presentation they'd like to give next Thursday? > >I'm tapped out right now, so not likely to have something this month. You guys meet on Jitsi, don't you? If so, I could give the same Inkscape Beginning and Intermediate presentation I gave Wednesday night at GoLUG. It was well received, and I don't think any Phoenix people were there, although I can't be sure. It took from 7:00pm to 9:30pm at GoLUG, and if I remember you usually quit after 2 hours, so I'd need to cut back on one example and quicken the pace. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, see http://golug.info, and go to the "current meeting". I'll cut the block diagram exercise, quicken the pace, and try to keep everyone on topic (you know how Geeks are). SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
