Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

On 2023-06-25 19:25, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:52:06 -0700


Yes water is an issue.


This was my first thought upon reading the subject of your post. This
is a huge challenge.


And when I think of data centers in Phoenix
during the summer... machines pumping out heat and A/C units needed to
cool them down... all that electricity.


I don't see this as a problem. Put solar arrays over every single
square foot of the building. Benefits:

1. Gives you electricity to run your air conditioners and servers.

2. Blocks the roof from the sun, reducing cooling needs.

Arizona has ample sunlight and lacks the hurricanes and tornadoes that
make solar less attractive in Florida and Oklahoma.



I understand the insurance companies are limiting solar so it may not be 
possible to cover an entire roof with solar.






I understand there is some movement to solar A/C units, which on it's
face seems like a solution...


Yep.


I like the idea.






In Chandler there is the Price Road Corridor which is set aside for
tech companies.  I'd estimate half the area is vacant.  The tax payers
votes to give tax dollars to companies willing to relocate workers
here.  The vote took place may 15 years ago so maybe the money is all
used up.


Personally I wish cities and states would spend money to encourage
home-grown small businesses to expend, instead of squandering it on tax
advantages for big companies that might stick around for a few years
and then jump ship for a state that offers even more tax advantages.



Me too.  Maybe if some of us start YouTube channels on local tech said 
channel might help this happen.


I would like to see all the public schools to be shut down and converted 
to business incubators.




I'm a freelance PHP developer so I called the City and asked about the
little guy.  Was not on their radar.


Yes, and that really sux!


I agree.  YouTube influences could be the solution.






With all this chip activity in Phoenix, it makes me wonder about what
cottage industries are going to sprout out of all of this.


I'd sure like to operate a food truck outside the factories.


Yumm Yumm!!





Especially
since there is resistance to returning to the office. AND I have read
there is a trend towards using 1099's because they can be rented for
just the period they are needed.


I've worked 1099 for more than half my life, and like it. Once
Obamacare kicked in in 2014, the health-insurance stumbling-block for
the self-employed mostly vanished.



I've been a 1099 since 2006. It has it's pluses and minuses I prefer 
freelancing by far over W2




I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and coworkers..


LOL, working self-employed I make half what an employee does, but I
don't have to jump through the hoops of a boss with half my
intelligence. If a customer becomes too argumentative, I just kick them
to the curb.



Yeah - fire those bad customers!!



SteveT

Steve Litt
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss]

Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:52:06 -0700

>Yes water is an issue.  

This was my first thought upon reading the subject of your post. This
is a huge challenge.

> And when I think of data centers in Phoenix 
>during the summer... machines pumping out heat and A/C units needed to 
>cool them down... all that electricity.

I don't see this as a problem. Put solar arrays over every single
square foot of the building. Benefits:

1. Gives you electricity to run your air conditioners and servers.

2. Blocks the roof from the sun, reducing cooling needs.

Arizona has ample sunlight and lacks the hurricanes and tornadoes that
make solar less attractive in Florida and Oklahoma.

>
>I understand there is some movement to solar A/C units, which on it's 
>face seems like a solution...

Yep.

>
>In Chandler there is the Price Road Corridor which is set aside for
>tech companies.  I'd estimate half the area is vacant.  The tax payers
>votes to give tax dollars to companies willing to relocate workers
>here.  The vote took place may 15 years ago so maybe the money is all
>used up.

Personally I wish cities and states would spend money to encourage
home-grown small businesses to expend, instead of squandering it on tax
advantages for big companies that might stick around for a few years
and then jump ship for a state that offers even more tax advantages.

>
>I'm a freelance PHP developer so I called the City and asked about the 
>little guy.  Was not on their radar.

Yes, and that really sux!

>
>With all this chip activity in Phoenix, it makes me wonder about what 
>cottage industries are going to sprout out of all of this.  

I'd sure like to operate a food truck outside the factories.

> Especially 
>since there is resistance to returning to the office. AND I have read 
>there is a trend towards using 1099's because they can be rented for 
>just the period they are needed.

I've worked 1099 for more than half my life, and like it. Once
Obamacare kicked in in 2014, the health-insurance stumbling-block for
the self-employed mostly vanished.

>
>I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and coworkers.. 

LOL, working self-employed I make half what an employee does, but I
don't have to jump through the hoops of a boss with half my
intelligence. If a customer becomes too argumentative, I just kick them
to the curb.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

One thing I've noticed about mass transit in the Valley is the money 
wasted on that train.  The train only goes where there are tracks.  
Instead of taking multiple lanes from traffic to put in the rails for 
the train, buses surely would have been a better solution.  A bus can go 
anywhere.  If a wreck blocks a road, the bus can take an alternate 
route.  The train is stuck until the wreck is cleared from the tracks.  
Some event causes an increased demand on a route, more buses can be 
easily added.  I remember when politicians were talking about the rail 
before it was built. They were saying it would cost $40 million a mile.  
$40 million is a helluva lot of buses, and we know government projects 
always end up costing way more than what the proponents say it will when 
they want the suckers (voters) to vote for it.


On 6/22/23 22:01, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote:
As a life long Arizonan, I can say that, without even reading the 
article, it's full of crap.


If Phoenix wants to be considered a city of the future, it needs to 
embrace dense urban planning (and get rid of this ridiculous urban 
sprawl), have an actual functional mass transit system, have actual 
(and affordable) entertainment, and be an actually good place to raise 
a family (which means schools that are worth a damn, walkable 
neighborhoods, family friendly entertainment, and a halfway decent 
medical system).


Right now the only thing still anchoring me to Arizona is a decent 
paying job. If that job ever goes away (more like when than if) then I 
will be looking for a better place to live.


-Matt


On 6/22/23 09:01, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Hi,

Came upon this article that sounds interesting. 
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/21/phoenix-chips-cars


I posted an article a while ago about a class that was being offered 
to teach chip making skills (if I recall correctly).


Any thoughts on how this will help/effect Linux folks... Open Source 
people... etc?


Are we going to become Austin, TX where I hear the city is over 
populated... freeways are over crowed... etc?


Is there a shift from Silicon Valley?

How is this going to effect us?  What are the opportunities?

Keith
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Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss]

As a life long Arizonan, I can say that, without even reading the 
article, it's full of crap.


If Phoenix wants to be considered a city of the future, it needs to 
embrace dense urban planning (and get rid of this ridiculous urban 
sprawl), have an actual functional mass transit system, have actual (and 
affordable) entertainment, and be an actually good place to raise a 
family (which means schools that are worth a damn, walkable 
neighborhoods, family friendly entertainment, and a halfway decent 
medical system).


Right now the only thing still anchoring me to Arizona is a decent 
paying job. If that job ever goes away (more like when than if) then I 
will be looking for a better place to live.


-Matt


On 6/22/23 09:01, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Hi,

Came upon this article that sounds interesting. 
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/21/phoenix-chips-cars


I posted an article a while ago about a class that was being offered 
to teach chip making skills (if I recall correctly).


Any thoughts on how this will help/effect Linux folks... Open Source 
people... etc?


Are we going to become Austin, TX where I hear the city is over 
populated... freeways are over crowed... etc?


Is there a shift from Silicon Valley?

How is this going to effect us?  What are the opportunities?

Keith
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Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

I think that's a whole other ball of worms around "Smart Cities", and more
about the technologies they conceptualize applying to run cities better,
not so much cities turning into a large hub of technology employers.  I
don't think there's a (good) book for that yet...

Been there, done that too with "Smart City" tech for a large California
muni customer.  It's all fanciful visions and theory until someone has to
cut a check for it and/or support it.

While rebuilding and supporting my customer's network, they put me on a
task to research what San Diego was doing back circa 2018/2019, where they
had their street light cameras put in everywhere to do "smart city"
things.  Someone actually voted to foot the bill miraculously, but then the
city IT didn't know what to do with it.  Well they did, but everything
included tracking people, cars, pedestrians, etc, but people got wind and
went up in arms to halt it
.
Then it sat around to now
,
went into disrepair, couldn't get funding for a 2nd generation (I think),
but still there.

The cops have been fiending for years to get access for doing what they do
,
though publicly decried, it is reported they keep trying anyways for that
sweet sweet warrantless surveillance

.

Nothing good other than 1984 style tracking innovate modern municipal smart
technology!

That "smart city" project got snuffed with another wave of economic
downturn for them, but it was going to be nothing but a nightmare for them
to do any such thing themselves anyways for this given tourist city in Cali.

SD Smart City Drama Reel:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=san+diego+smart+city+cameras+streetlight&t=ffab&ia=web

-mb


On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 4:04 PM greg zegan via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> may I ...
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Cities-Dummies-Computer-Tech/dp/111967994X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=smart+cities+for+dummies&sr=8-1
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:00:44 PM MST, Michael Butash via
> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
>
>
> >> I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only
> had
> >> a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.
>
> Most often my experience too, particularly in AZ.  Entrenched/clueless
> leadership often enough, then combine entrenched vendors (think cisco,
> microsoft, oracle), fight club between internal silos of organizations,
> lack of strong technical leadership, lack of strong technical anyone,
> people run too thin, people that simple hate their lives and thus
> everything suffers, everything in between, but there's any number of
> reasons I find when doing these gigs.
>
> Start overlapping them like a weird 3d venn diagram, and the problems
> stack like mad.
>
> Observing enough different industries from IT and management perspectives,
> one can apply dysfunctions like stereotypes if you've sampled enough of
> them, and after 24 or so years in over 120 unique organizations/agencies
> tinkering with their networks that run everything, it's not hard to do with
> some accuracy.
>
> >> If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?
>
> Supposedly cheap resources in 2001-ish, but that certainly isn't the case
> anymore.  Access to "cheap" labor never really works out either unless just
> for call centers or manufacturing, otherwise AZ pay isn't that
> significantly worse than Cali anymore.
>
> There have been a lot of subsidies with local muni's over the years, such
> as the Price area, but the pull isn't as strong as was expected, and still
> really hasn't.  I've worked in or know of much of the larger IT-based
> things like the data centers and semiconductor vendors down there, but
> nothing exciting, and usually just corporate people, call centers, or
> manufacturing of various levels that wanted cheap labor for lesser jobs.
>
> You go to AMEX's corporate up on 101, it's like walking into an office in
> Bangalore.  That's their solution to dealing with Arizonans, but hey,
> they'll still take those tax subsidies from here!
>
> >> Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix
> >> during the summer...
>
> Most major businesses (and government) tend to build small data centers in
> their own buildings too, often not as complicated as the mega data centers
> we have a plenty here, but still often have the same water, cooling, power,
> etc issues here.  That's already gotten nasty now with this totally
> fictitious climate chang

Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

On 2023-06-22 16:04, greg zegan via PLUG-discuss wrote:

may I ...
https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Cities-Dummies-Computer-Tech/dp/111967994X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=smart+cities+for+dummies&sr=8-1


The page says "At its core, a smart city is a collection of 
technological responses to the growing demands, challenges, and 
complexities of improving the quality of life for billions of people now 
living in urban centers across the world."


Not sure where the book is going, however this appears to be government 
driven.  This gives me the willies. Most all things should be market 
driven. I desire freedom.


I realize we have some issues like water.  We are about to experience 
some extreme heat.  They say there is a 55% chance the El Nino will 
create record highs.  I hate this heat.


However I am of the opinion that the government should not dictate what 
I can do, within reason. In the case of water I think their reaction 
might be reasonable - maybe.  I also expect Lake Mead to recover before 
we experience a catastrophe.


I want Gov to protect my rights and then get out of the way and I will 
figure out the rest.


If a smart city means smart homes and smart cars I'm out.  This is a 
Linux list and I think we all understand the potential problems with 
lots of devices connected to the Internet (IoT) that are going 
unmanaged.


I home office and use a slight amount more electricity than my 
neighbors. What if I had a smart home and the utility company decided to 
shutdown my usage at some trigger.  My neighbor is using more resources 
overall given a commute and and office building that requires 
electricity... etc.  Who would know?  I drive 200 miles a month on 
average so I expect I am actually using less resources than most of my 
neighbors... but who would know?


Lets be wise and free.





 On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:00:44 PM MST, Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss  wrote:


I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've

only had
 >> a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.

Most often my experience too, particularly in AZ.  Entrenched/clueless
leadership often enough, then combine entrenched vendors (think cisco,
microsoft, oracle), fight club between internal silos of
organizations, lack of strong technical leadership, lack of strong
technical anyone, people run too thin, people that simple hate their
lives and thus everything suffers, everything in between, but there's
any number of reasons I find when doing these gigs.

Start overlapping them like a weird 3d venn diagram, and the problems
stack like mad.

Observing enough different industries from IT and management
perspectives, one can apply dysfunctions like stereotypes if you've
sampled enough of them, and after 24 or so years in over 120 unique
organizations/agencies tinkering with their networks that run
everything, it's not hard to do with some accuracy.
 >> If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?

Supposedly cheap resources in 2001-ish, but that certainly isn't the
case anymore.  Access to "cheap" labor never really works out either
unless just for call centers or manufacturing, otherwise AZ pay isn't
that significantly worse than Cali anymore.

There have been a lot of subsidies with local muni's over the years,
such as the Price area, but the pull isn't as strong as was expected,
and still really hasn't.  I've worked in or know of much of the larger
IT-based things like the data centers and semiconductor vendors down
there, but nothing exciting, and usually just corporate people, call
centers, or manufacturing of various levels that wanted cheap labor
for lesser jobs.

You go to AMEX's corporate up on 101, it's like walking into an office
in Bangalore.  That's their solution to dealing with Arizonans, but
hey, they'll still take those tax subsidies from here!


Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix


 >> during the summer...

Most major businesses (and government) tend to build small data
centers in their own buildings too, often not as complicated as the
mega data centers we have a plenty here, but still often have the same
water, cooling, power, etc issues here.  That's already gotten nasty
now with this totally fictitious climate change occurring.

AZ's major selling point is again environments due to no natural
disasters, and access to Palo Verde nuke power (and technically SRP,
but that's drying up...), but with extreme heat now occurring
everywhere, power grids are already struggling.  Texas power grids are
on a verge of collapse right now with power through the roof, so I
wouldn't want to be in Austin either...


I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and

coworkers..
 >> Being self employed comes with it's challenges as well.

Me neither unless I found something extremely technical and
compelling, and that just isn't really here in AZ, nor do I feel ever.

Just last week, a friend more or less offered me a walk-in W2 job wit

Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[greg zegan via PLUG-discuss]

 may I 
...https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Cities-Dummies-Computer-Tech/dp/111967994X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=smart+cities+for+dummies&sr=8-1

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:00:44 PM MST, Michael Butash via 
PLUG-discuss  wrote:  
 
 >> I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only had 
>> a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.
Most often my experience too, particularly in AZ.  Entrenched/clueless 
leadership often enough, then combine entrenched vendors (think cisco, 
microsoft, oracle), fight club between internal silos of organizations, lack of 
strong technical leadership, lack of strong technical anyone, people run too 
thin, people that simple hate their lives and thus everything suffers, 
everything in between, but there's any number of reasons I find when doing 
these gigs.  

Start overlapping them like a weird 3d venn diagram, and the problems stack 
like mad.
Observing enough different industries from IT and management perspectives, one 
can apply dysfunctions like stereotypes if you've sampled enough of them, and 
after 24 or so years in over 120 unique organizations/agencies tinkering with 
their networks that run everything, it's not hard to do with some accuracy.
>> If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?
Supposedly cheap resources in 2001-ish, but that certainly isn't the case 
anymore.  Access to "cheap" labor never really works out either unless just for 
call centers or manufacturing, otherwise AZ pay isn't that significantly worse 
than Cali anymore.
There have been a lot of subsidies with local muni's over the years, such as 
the Price area, but the pull isn't as strong as was expected, and still really 
hasn't.  I've worked in or know of much of the larger IT-based things like the 
data centers and semiconductor vendors down there, but nothing exciting, and 
usually just corporate people, call centers, or manufacturing of various levels 
that wanted cheap labor for lesser jobs.
You go to AMEX's corporate up on 101, it's like walking into an office in 
Bangalore.  That's their solution to dealing with Arizonans, but hey, they'll 
still take those tax subsidies from here!

>> Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix 
>> during the summer... 

Most major businesses (and government) tend to build small data centers in 
their own buildings too, often not as complicated as the mega data centers we 
have a plenty here, but still often have the same water, cooling, power, etc 
issues here.  That's already gotten nasty now with this totally fictitious 
climate change occurring.

AZ's major selling point is again environments due to no natural disasters, and 
access to Palo Verde nuke power (and technically SRP, but that's drying up...), 
but with extreme heat now occurring everywhere, power grids are already 
struggling.  Texas power grids are on a verge of collapse right now with power 
through the roof, so I wouldn't want to be in Austin either...

>> I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and coworkers.. 
>> Being self employed comes with it's challenges as well.
Me neither unless I found something extremely technical and compelling, and 
that just isn't really here in AZ, nor do I feel ever.

Just last week, a friend more or less offered me a walk-in W2 job with a local 
hospital company, and could only think of the horror of ever actually working 
for a hospital company.  Supposedly cake work at nominal salary and low stress, 
but I have consulted and implemented changes in a LOT of hospitals and medical 
orgs over the years to know better, and always the most absolutely horribly run 
places ANYWHERE in the US across at least half a dozen different states 
including here.  Plus if you're not directly medical staff, you aren't sh!t, 
and what they do have for IT is always the lowest paid and/or worst technical 
people, and I never want to be that guy just riding it out for a check.
Newp, not that desperate for work, yet, but suppose I've been in worse places 
too.

-mb


On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:52 PM  wrote:

I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only had 
a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.

If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?

Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix 
during the summer... machines pumping out heat and A/C units needed to 
cool them down... all that electricity.

I understand there is some movement to solar A/C units, which on it's 
face seems like a solution...

In Chandler there is the Price Road Corridor which is set aside for tech 
companies.  I'd estimate half the area is vacant.  The tax payers votes 
to give tax dollars to companies willing to relocate workers here.  The 
vote took place may 15 years ago so maybe the money is all used up.

I'm a freelance PHP developer so I called the City and asked about the 
little guy.  Was not on their radar.

With all t

Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

>> I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only had
>> a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.

Most often my experience too, particularly in AZ.  Entrenched/clueless
leadership often enough, then combine entrenched vendors (think cisco,
microsoft, oracle), fight club between internal silos of organizations,
lack of strong technical leadership, lack of strong technical anyone,
people run too thin, people that simple hate their lives and thus
everything suffers, everything in between, but there's any number of
reasons I find when doing these gigs.

Start overlapping them like a weird 3d venn diagram, and the problems stack
like mad.

Observing enough different industries from IT and management perspectives,
one can apply dysfunctions like stereotypes if you've sampled enough of
them, and after 24 or so years in over 120 unique organizations/agencies
tinkering with their networks that run everything, it's not hard to do with
some accuracy.

>> If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?

Supposedly cheap resources in 2001-ish, but that certainly isn't the case
anymore.  Access to "cheap" labor never really works out either unless just
for call centers or manufacturing, otherwise AZ pay isn't that
significantly worse than Cali anymore.

There have been a lot of subsidies with local muni's over the years, such
as the Price area, but the pull isn't as strong as was expected, and still
really hasn't.  I've worked in or know of much of the larger IT-based
things like the data centers and semiconductor vendors down there, but
nothing exciting, and usually just corporate people, call centers, or
manufacturing of various levels that wanted cheap labor for lesser jobs.

You go to AMEX's corporate up on 101, it's like walking into an office in
Bangalore.  That's their solution to dealing with Arizonans, but hey,
they'll still take those tax subsidies from here!

>> Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix
>> during the summer...

Most major businesses (and government) tend to build small data centers in
their own buildings too, often not as complicated as the mega data centers
we have a plenty here, but still often have the same water, cooling, power,
etc issues here.  That's already gotten nasty now with this totally
fictitious climate change occurring.

AZ's major selling point is again environments due to no natural disasters,
and access to Palo Verde nuke power (and technically SRP, but that's drying
up...), but with extreme heat now occurring everywhere, power grids are
already struggling.  Texas power grids are on a verge of collapse right now
with power through the roof, so I wouldn't want to be in Austin either...

>> I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and coworkers..
>> Being self employed comes with it's challenges as well.

Me neither unless I found something extremely technical and compelling, and
that just isn't really here in AZ, nor do I feel ever.

Just last week, a friend more or less offered me a walk-in W2 job with a
local hospital company, and could only think of the horror of ever actually
working for a hospital company.  Supposedly cake work at nominal salary and
low stress, but I have consulted and implemented changes in a LOT of
hospitals and medical orgs over the years to know better, and always the
most absolutely horribly run places ANYWHERE in the US across at least half
a dozen different states including here.  Plus if you're not directly
medical staff, you aren't sh!t, and what they do have for IT is always the
lowest paid and/or worst technical people, and I never want to be that guy
just riding it out for a check.

Newp, not that desperate for work, yet, but suppose I've been in worse
places too.

-mb



On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:52 PM  wrote:

> I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only had
> a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.
>
> If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?
>
> Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix
> during the summer... machines pumping out heat and A/C units needed to
> cool them down... all that electricity.
>
> I understand there is some movement to solar A/C units, which on it's
> face seems like a solution...
>
> In Chandler there is the Price Road Corridor which is set aside for tech
> companies.  I'd estimate half the area is vacant.  The tax payers votes
> to give tax dollars to companies willing to relocate workers here.  The
> vote took place may 15 years ago so maybe the money is all used up.
>
> I'm a freelance PHP developer so I called the City and asked about the
> little guy.  Was not on their radar.
>
> With all this chip activity in Phoenix, it makes me wonder about what
> cottage industries are going to sprout out of all of this.  Especially
> since there is resistance to returning to the office. AND I have read
> there is a trend towards using 10

Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

I've only lived in AZ except for a stint in the military.  I've only had 
a couple good managers.  Most others where in over their head.


If AZ is so bad then why is all this tech choosing AZ?

Yes water is an issue.  And when I think of data centers in Phoenix 
during the summer... machines pumping out heat and A/C units needed to 
cool them down... all that electricity.


I understand there is some movement to solar A/C units, which on it's 
face seems like a solution...


In Chandler there is the Price Road Corridor which is set aside for tech 
companies.  I'd estimate half the area is vacant.  The tax payers votes 
to give tax dollars to companies willing to relocate workers here.  The 
vote took place may 15 years ago so maybe the money is all used up.


I'm a freelance PHP developer so I called the City and asked about the 
little guy.  Was not on their radar.


With all this chip activity in Phoenix, it makes me wonder about what 
cottage industries are going to sprout out of all of this.  Especially 
since there is resistance to returning to the office. AND I have read 
there is a trend towards using 1099's because they can be rented for 
just the period they are needed.


I personally would never want to work W2 with a boss and coworkers.. 
Being self employed comes with it's challenges as well.


Could be an interesting decade ahead of us. Exciting!!





On 2023-06-22 13:04, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Meh, I've heard this since the dot.bomb implosion of 2000, when I
happened to move back from silicon valley at the beginning of 2001
with everything going under there.  Seemed like half of Cali moved
here with me after, and tons of like speculation at the time of a
Silicon Desert.  While I think AZ has grown tons since, there's never
been a mad rush to redefine itself as a technological behemoth in
anything other than Data Centers here, that's only because of the lack
of natural disasters (at least until we run the groundwater dry now).

Not to make this incendiary, but FWIW spending 2 years in Silicon
Valley and the next 21 years to now here, Arizona is a damn weird
place to work in IT, and a lot of folks that have moved here say the
same.  The lack of modern internet or technology orgs means it's
mostly a lot of clueless legacy orgs dragged kicking and screaming
into the 21st century, meaning they're mostly technologically inept at
the core, and treat it as an afterthought to their business as it
literally was.  Any "mega tech" orgs we do have like Motorola, Intel,
Honeywell, Cox/Lumen, etc, even Godaddy now are so dated they operate
just as dysfunctionally.

Old businesses, particularly across industries like hospitality
(hotels, etc), hospitals, education, manufacturing, foods, even
government all started off with paper, moved up to telephones, then
fax, and were eventually dragged into computers to the point now they
can't live without them, woefully and painfully.  Almost every
organization in AZ I've worked for is particularly OLD like that with
TONS of legacy debt, typically have the old help desk guy (or worse,
owner's kid) that hung around 20 years and finally got promoted to
network manager, even though still barely know basic servers, they've
no idea of linux, networks, clouds, security, and even more so, no
PASSION for technology.  Eventually org's realize they're floundering,
and start hiring new CxO's and managers, but with the blind leading
the blind, they hire terrible people that run the business terribly,
and still never get out of the rut.  I see this more often than not in
Arizona, even in modern technology born here or when non-Arizona
businesses operate out of here, they end up afflicted and seem dragged
down to such a level like something in the water.

My guts say now if an org ANYWHERE wasn't borne of technology, ie. the
Googles, Fakebooks, Linkedin (before M$, grr), etc that are BUILT
around technology for technology's sake, they're just always going to
be on the upside down for any real technological workplace in any
capacity and probably pretty miserable to work at ultimately.  I've
also worked for highly dysfunctional silicon valley and other hotspot
orgs since too, it's a disease without boundaries - you just never
know.

After a now ~24 year career in IT where all but one I was as a senior
engineer/architect/consultant capacity for over 120 different
businesses in AZ and all over the US, I can usually tell you how bad a
business is by what they sell or do, or at very least a well-weighted
guess.  My friends always ask me about places they're considering as
they know I'm more right than wrong.  A few months back a friend of
mine working here on H1B from India with a similar temperament to me
asked me what *good* places there were in Arizona as we both hated our
last gigs here, and I simply told him "nowhere, run away".  He just
bought a house in RTP, after the past 5 years of gigs here in AZ
coming from Austin, he believed me.

I know, I probably sou

Re: Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

Meh, I've heard this since the dot.bomb implosion of 2000, when I happened
to move back from silicon valley at the beginning of 2001 with everything
going under there.  Seemed like half of Cali moved here with me after, and
tons of like speculation at the time of a Silicon Desert.  While I think AZ
has grown tons since, there's never been a mad rush to redefine itself as a
technological behemoth in anything other than Data Centers here, that's
only because of the lack of natural disasters (at least until we run the
groundwater dry now).

Not to make this incendiary, but FWIW spending 2 years in Silicon Valley
and the next 21 years to now here, Arizona is a damn weird place to work in
IT, and a lot of folks that have moved here say the same.  The lack of
modern internet or technology orgs means it's mostly a lot of clueless
legacy orgs dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, meaning
they're mostly technologically inept at the core, and treat it as an
afterthought to their business as it literally was.  Any "mega tech" orgs
we do have like Motorola, Intel, Honeywell, Cox/Lumen, etc, even Godaddy
now are so dated they operate just as dysfunctionally.

Old businesses, particularly across industries like hospitality (hotels,
etc), hospitals, education, manufacturing, foods, even government all
started off with paper, moved up to telephones, then fax, and were
eventually dragged into computers to the point now they can't live without
them, woefully and painfully.  Almost every organization in AZ I've worked
for is particularly OLD like that with TONS of legacy debt, typically have
the old help desk guy (or worse, owner's kid) that hung around 20 years and
finally got promoted to network manager, even though still barely know
basic servers, they've no idea of linux, networks, clouds, security, and
even more so, no PASSION for technology.  Eventually org's realize they're
floundering, and start hiring new CxO's and managers, but with the blind
leading the blind, they hire terrible people that run the business
terribly, and still never get out of the rut.  I see this more often than
not in Arizona, even in modern technology born here or when non-Arizona
businesses operate out of here, they end up afflicted and seem dragged down
to such a level like something in the water.

My guts say now if an org ANYWHERE wasn't borne of technology, ie. the
Googles, Fakebooks, Linkedin (before M$, grr), etc that are BUILT around
technology for technology's sake, they're just always going to be on the
upside down for any real technological workplace in any capacity and
probably pretty miserable to work at ultimately.  I've also worked for
highly dysfunctional silicon valley and other hotspot orgs since too, it's
a disease without boundaries - you just never know.

After a now ~24 year career in IT where all but one I was as a senior
engineer/architect/consultant capacity for over 120 different businesses in
AZ and all over the US, I can usually tell you how bad a business is by
what they sell or do, or at very least a well-weighted guess.  My friends
always ask me about places they're considering as they know I'm more right
than wrong.  A few months back a friend of mine working here on H1B from
India with a similar temperament to me asked me what *good* places there
were in Arizona as we both hated our last gigs here, and I simply told him
"nowhere, run away".  He just bought a house in RTP, after the past 5 years
of gigs here in AZ coming from Austin, he believed me.

I know, I probably sound pretty jaded at this point with the industry and
particularly with AZ for technology gigs, and certainly am.  If not for AZ
being what I've mostly always called home, I'd bail on it too for lack of
hope.  I just simply consider now by default Arizona orgs are very likely
backward-operated and barely worth my personal investment, regardless of
hyperbole like this article as I've heard it all before and again.  Thus I
just deal with most gigs in short contracts on an in and out basis before I
get too punchy with the silly politics and drama.

-mb



On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 9:01 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Came upon this article that sounds interesting.
> https://www.axios.com/2023/06/21/phoenix-chips-cars
>
> I posted an article a while ago about a class that was being offered to
> teach chip making skills (if I recall correctly).
>
> Any thoughts on how this will help/effect Linux folks... Open Source
> people... etc?
>
> Are we going to become Austin, TX where I hear the city is over
> populated... freeways are over crowed... etc?
>
> Is there a shift from Silicon Valley?
>
> How is this going to effect us?  What are the opportunities?
>
> Keith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-di

Phoenix is emerging as the city of the future

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Hi,

Came upon this article that sounds interesting.  
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/21/phoenix-chips-cars


I posted an article a while ago about a class that was being offered to 
teach chip making skills (if I recall correctly).


Any thoughts on how this will help/effect Linux folks... Open Source 
people... etc?


Are we going to become Austin, TX where I hear the city is over 
populated... freeways are over crowed... etc?


Is there a shift from Silicon Valley?

How is this going to effect us?  What are the opportunities?

Keith
---
PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss