OT: Time for substantive change.
The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government." Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it very clear that this is no joke. Click the link below to sign the petition: - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Thanks no. And I find this inappropriate for this list. On Nov 14, 2012 4:17 PM, wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it > very clear that this is no joke. > > Click the link below to sign the petition: > > - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - > > > Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active > petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. > At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last > initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. > > > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
On 11/14/2012 04:10 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government." Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it very clear that this is no joke. Click the link below to sign the petition: - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss You /do/ realize there is really NO provision for states to break away right? This whole petition thing is bogus. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I've been watching this and a number of other issues unfold over that last 4 or 5 days. We definitely live in interesting times. I whole heatedly agree we need to fix our relationship with the federal government, and believe me I would love to secede, however I think it might be destructive in the end. My main concern is the US may be what is keeping the world from self destructing. If we break into 50 different countries, we lose that strength. For instance what happens to all the nukes we have all over the planet? What about our navy what happens to it? I propose the 50 states create an alliance to nullify anything the federal government does that is not constitutional. This is lawful and we have the right under the 10th Amendment. We can start by requiring all taxes sent to the federal government go through the states. The states should hold back 80% of it. I would guess everyone thinks the federal government is out of control. If we stand together we can do this. Remember the states created the federal government not the other way around. The 10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Keith Smith --- On Wed, 11/14/12, j...@actionline.com wrote: From: j...@actionline.com Subject: OT: Time for substantive change. To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 4:10 PM The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government." Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it very clear that this is no joke. Click the link below to sign the petition: - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Any contract can be broken. Keith Smith --- On Wed, 11/14/12, Wayne Davis wrote: From: Wayne Davis Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 4:30 PM On 11/14/2012 04:10 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government." Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it very clear that this is no joke. Click the link below to sign the petition: - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss You do realize there is really NO provision for states to break away right? This whole petition thing is bogus. -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Hi Joe, On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:10 PM, wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it > very clear that this is no joke. > I fear it's far too late. In no current political party do we find that our idealogy actually pencils out to actualization of our stated goals. We are already enslaved. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_the_nature_of_government > > Click the link below to sign the petition: > > - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - > > > Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active > petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. > At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last > initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. > > > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- (503) 754-4452 Android (623) 239-3392 Skype (623) 688-3392 Google Voice ** it-clowns.com Chief Clown --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I guess that a majority of the vote nationwide and a huge margin in the electoral college somehow does not indicate "consent of the governed". I wholeheartedly agree that this list is NOT the place for any discussion of politics. Original message intentionally omitted from my response >From Da Rock's Xoom --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Given that a county in Florida had a voter turn out of 141%. That would be the district that Allen West is in. Also I would submit the vote for a president does not equate to consent. Keith Smith --- On Wed, 11/14/12, farli wrote: From: farli Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 5:03 PM I guess that a majority of the vote nationwide and a huge margin in the electoral college somehow does not indicate "consent of the governed". I wholeheartedly agree that this list is NOT the place for any discussion of politics. Original message intentionally omitted from my response >From Da Rock's Xoom --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
AND once you sign ANY petition there (which has about as much weight as an idea) they spam the heck out of you with more petitions to sign.. no thanks! On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Wayne Davis wrote: > On 11/14/2012 04:10 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it > very clear that this is no joke. > > Click the link below to sign the petition: > > - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - > > > Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active > petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. > At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last > initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. > > > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings:http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > You *do* realize there is really NO provision for states to break away > right? This whole petition thing is bogus. > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
And what does this thread have to do with LINUX? Mark On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:36 PM, JD Austin wrote: > AND once you sign ANY petition there (which has about as much weight > as an idea) they spam the heck out of you with more petitions to sign.. no > thanks! > > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Wayne Davis wrote: > >> On 11/14/2012 04:10 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: >> >> The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among >> men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that >> whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is >> the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new >> Government." >> >> Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to >> secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." >> >> The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it >> very clear that this is no joke. >> >> Click the link below to sign the petition: >> >> - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - >> >> >> Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active >> petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. >> At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last >> initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail >> settings:http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> You *do* realize there is really NO provision for states to break away >> right? This whole petition thing is bogus. >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
It's OT, discard it if you don't like it. OT is an accepted format at PLUG, however, this is not a moderated list. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Mark Phillips wrote: > And what does this thread have to do with LINUX? > > Mark > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:36 PM, JD Austin wrote: > >> AND once you sign ANY petition there (which has about as much weight >> as an idea) they spam the heck out of you with more petitions to sign.. no >> thanks! >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Wayne Davis wrote: >> >>> On 11/14/2012 04:10 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: >>> >>> The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among >>> men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that >>> whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is >>> the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new >>> Government." >>> >>> Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to >>> secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." >>> >>> The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it >>> very clear that this is no joke. >>> >>> Click the link below to sign the petition: >>> >>> - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - >>> >>> >>> Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active >>> petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. >>> At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last >>> initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail >>> settings:http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> You *do* realize there is really NO provision for states to break >>> away right? This whole petition thing is bogus. >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- (503) 754-4452 Android (623) 239-3392 Skype (623) 688-3392 Google Voice ** it-clowns.com Chief Clown --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Btw, While I voiced that we take a different direction I would like to say I have the utmost respect for Joe and I always value his opinion. Keith Smith --- On Wed, 11/14/12, j...@actionline.com wrote: From: j...@actionline.com Subject: OT: Time for substantive change. To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 4:10 PM The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government." Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it very clear that this is no joke. Click the link below to sign the petition: - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I agree about this not being a place to discuss politics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that this list is for the discussion of issues dealing with linux. Also no matter who you vote for, you'll end up with a collection of crooked politicians. Lists dedicated to discussing politics can easily be turned into a collection of flame wars. If you want to talk about politics, call Barry Young in the morning or Mike Broomhead in the afternoon. That's what they're paid for. On 11/14/2012 05:03 PM, farli wrote: I guess that a majority of the vote nationwide and a huge margin in the electoral college somehow does not indicate "consent of the governed". I wholeheartedly agree that this list is NOT the place for any discussion of politics. Original message intentionally omitted from my response >From Da Rock's Xoom --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Hi, This is OT topic by a lot. Please keep politics and religion off a tech blog, unless of course you want to be added to the ignore list and ALL your posts are tossed into the trash pile without being read. If I wanted to read about someone's personal politics I would go to one of the many sites on the internet for that special interest group. Please do the same. Joe Gibbs On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:10 PM, wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it > very clear that this is no joke. > > Click the link below to sign the petition: > > - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - > > > Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active > petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. > At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last > initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. > > > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I think seceding is a grand *idea* but then what about all the people who depend on the government for sustenance (social security)? :-)~MIKE~(-: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Joe Gibbs wrote: > Hi, > > This is OT topic by a lot. > > Please keep politics and religion off a tech blog, unless of course you > want to be added to the ignore list and ALL your posts are tossed into the > trash pile without being read. > > If I wanted to read about someone's personal politics I would go to one of > the many sites on the internet for that special interest group. Please do > the same. > > Joe Gibbs > > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:10 PM, wrote: > >> >> The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among >> men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that >> whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is >> the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new >> Government." >> >> Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to >> secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." >> >> The rate at which signatures are being added to these petitions makes it >> very clear that this is no joke. >> >> Click the link below to sign the petition: >> >> - - - http://wh.gov/9mNz - - - >> >> >> Note: If you live in a state other than Arizona, google to find the active >> petition in your state. A petition is under way in and for every state. >> At this point, you only need to sign up with your first name, last >> initial, and zip code. It's quick and easy. Let your voice be heard. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:10:17PM -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." IIRC we fought a hell of a bloody war over this around 150 or so yrs ago. In the North it was called The Civil War. In the South it was called The War of Northern Aggression. Either way, your side lost. ..snip. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
May I point out that winning a war doesn't make you right... nor does it make the opposition any more compliant in the long term... If at first you don't secede, try and try again. :) On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:10:17PM -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: > > > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > > Government." > > > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > IIRC we fought a hell of a bloody war over this around 150 or so yrs > ago. In the North it was called The Civil War. In the South it was > called The War of Northern Aggression. Either way, your side lost. > >..snip. > > -- > Bob Holtzman > If you think you're getting free lunch, > check the price of the beer. > Key ID: 8D549279 > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAlClURYACgkQv5BYD41Uknk9RwCfYvKe32kGL5fEA2HLInbh5Smb > AxAAoOIyTrM/ET9WWjG5UYAWo0H6CgpJ > =IN4v > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. Who will fight against it? The President, his cabinet, the House, Senate, and the Supremes? This is different. This is all the states against the federal government. The federal government gets it's power from the people. If the people withdraw, then there is not federal government. The states created the federal government. If all 50 states walk there is not federal government to fight to keep the 50 states together. Very different. Keith Smith --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Robert Holtzman wrote: From: Robert Holtzman Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 1:31 PM On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:10:17PM -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." IIRC we fought a hell of a bloody war over this around 150 or so yrs ago. In the North it was called The Civil War. In the South it was called The War of Northern Aggression. Either way, your side lost. ..snip. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
> > What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. Is this true? Cool! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Something to consider is that while there are groups of people in each state that want to secede, not EVERYONE in the state wants to secede. The question is what constitutes critical mass to trigger the change. The colonists only had support from about 20% of the population. How much does each state need? Eric On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tom Haws wrote: > What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. > > > Is this true? Cool! > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I think that people that don't like the way the country is going should move to texas and then only teas seceed. There already is a provision in their founding documents that they could separate into 3 states. :-)~MIKE~(-: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Eric Cope wrote: > Something to consider is that while there are groups of people in each > state that want to secede, not EVERYONE in the state wants to secede. The > question is what constitutes critical mass to trigger the change. The > colonists only had support from about 20% of the population. How much does > each state need? > > Eric > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tom Haws wrote: > >> What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. >> >> >> Is this true? Cool! >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I call that statement bull crap. Just because someone created a petition does not mean that all/most of the residents want to give up. Personally for a joke I could create a petition for those states that I don't like and then watch the fear-mongers start clicking yes. On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:24 PM, keith smith wrote: > > > What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. Who > will fight against it? The President, his cabinet, the House, Senate, and > the Supremes? > > This is different. This is all the states against the federal > government. The federal government gets it's power from the people. If > the people withdraw, then there is not federal government. > > The states created the federal government. If all 50 states walk there is > not federal government to fight to keep the 50 states together. > > Very different. > > > Keith Smith > > --- On *Thu, 11/15/12, Robert Holtzman * wrote: > > > From: Robert Holtzman > Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. > To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 1:31 PM > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:10:17PM -0700, > j...@actionline.com<http://mc/compose?to=j...@actionline.com>wrote: > > > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > > Government." > > > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." > > IIRC we fought a hell of a bloody war over this around 150 or so yrs > ago. In the North it was called The Civil War. In the South it was > called The War of Northern Aggression. Either way, your side lost. > >..snip. > > -- > Bob Holtzman > If you think you're getting free lunch, > check the price of the beer. > Key ID: 8D549279 > > -Inline Attachment Follows- > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us<http://mc/compose?to=PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
What if we turn that on it head - 180 degrees out and say anyone who does not what to follow the Constitution should find a place where they fit in. It's about the Constitution and nothing else. If someone wants to be a socialist why not move to a socialist country? Keith Smith --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Michael Havens wrote: From: Michael Havens Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 3:09 PM I think that people that don't like the way the country is going should move to texas and then only teas seceed. There already is a provision in their founding documents that they could separate into 3 states. :-)~MIKE~(-: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Eric Cope wrote: Something to consider is that while there are groups of people in each state that want to secede, not EVERYONE in the state wants to secede. The question is what constitutes critical mass to trigger the change. The colonists only had support from about 20% of the population. How much does each state need? Eric On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Tom Haws wrote: What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. Is this true? Cool! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
Ok, maybe I was not completely clear. To stay on point, my statement was not about whether it was valid or about who was doing what. My point was IF all 50 states decided to secede then who will stop them and I was drawing a contrast between the Civil War and what potentially is going on today. The Civil War was possible because there were states who seceded and there were states that stood with the Federal Government. This is a much different situation. IF and I say IF all 50 stated really decided to secede who can stop them? That was my point. I agree most people, to include myself, do not want to secede, however you must read between the lines. This is a warning to the Federal Government to get inline with the Constitution or further action will be taken. Keith Smith --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Joe Gibbs wrote: From: Joe Gibbs Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 3:21 PM I call that statement bull crap. Just because someone created a petition does not mean that all/most of the residents want to give up. Personally for a joke I could create a petition for those states that I don't like and then watch the fear-mongers start clicking yes. On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 2:24 PM, keith smith wrote: What is different is all 50 states want to go their separate way. Who will fight against it? The President, his cabinet, the House, Senate, and the Supremes? This is different. This is all the states against the federal government. The federal government gets it's power from the people. If the people withdraw, then there is not federal government. The states created the federal government. If all 50 states walk there is not federal government to fight to keep the 50 states together. Very different. Keith Smith --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Robert Holtzman wrote: From: Robert Holtzman Subject: Re: OT: Time for substantive change. To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 1:31 PM On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:10:17PM -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: > > The Declaration of Independence states: "Governments are instituted among > men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that > whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is > the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new > Government." > > Over the past few days, petitions have been started in all 50 states to > secede from this now marxist-socialist "union." IIRC we fought a hell of a bloody war over this around 150 or so yrs ago. In the North it was called The Civil War. In the South it was called The War of Northern Aggression. Either way, your side lost. ..snip. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Time for substantive change.
I'll second that. :) Take away my motivation/reward to do more than I need to and guess what... I'll stop. Health care is expensive mostly because of governmental regulations/bureaucracy. If I created a medical device that would magically cure cancer guess what my odds would be of getting it in the hands of a Doctor legally? Almost zero unless I had enough money to grease the way. If they wanted to make healthcare affordable they'd band all of the governmental agencies in the world that act as gatekeepers into one partnership and once a drug/device is in it's in for everywhere *and vice versa.* Our federal government somehow took the power that was supposed to reside in the states and the people using the commerce clause (and because they got away with it enough to make it 'normal'). They take money from one state and give it to another with strings attached to maintain their power... then of course if you look at our money itself it's not based on anything tangible and the Federal Govt can have the Federal reserve print money whenever they need more. I'd rather pay ALL of my taxes to AZ and let AZ decide how much it can give to the Federal Govt. Not that it'll ever happen. On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 4:08 PM, keith smith wrote: > > What if we turn that on it head - 180 degrees out and say anyone who does > not what to follow the Constitution should find a place where they fit in. > It's about the Constitution and nothing else. > > If someone wants to be a socialist why not move to a socialist country? > > > Keith Smith > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
