Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Wow, I had no idea I would create such a thread! Thanks to everyone for their help! To be honest, I'd love to have Alexander's job or something similar. I originally wanted to go into, and am still interested in, telecom, networking, and sys admin and analysis. I would *LOVE* to do embedded stuff, like Software-Defined Radios, DSP filters, and so on, with my love of radio (I have a ham radio license) and data, but I don't have the math background and don't think I'm quite smart enough to go there (I still remember the horrors of sine-cosine transformations!). Barring that, any programming that doesn't require graphics (I have enough trouble drawing stick figures :) such as databases and such would interest me, along with drivers, kernel development, or just plain LAMP stuff, which is where I'd probably aim myself since it's the shortest route at the moment (besides the net admin). I love to learn (as long as it's something I like), and IT fits me great in that regard: computers have always been my first love. I programmed my old Color Computer 2 first in M$ BASIC, then in Motorola 6809 assembly, and then in some K&R C (ANSI C was fairly new at the time and there wasn't a compiler yet). In college I got exposed to Pascal (hated it, "The Handcuff of the Programmer" I called it). And after that I dropped out. The problem now is fixing that particular mistake from nearly 20 years ago. I have a lot of hindsight (including the Internet being public--in college, I spent way too much time MUDing) and now I also have you guys and all of your experience. So thank you SO MUCH!!! Mike P.S. One language I don't know I want to really bad: Erlang! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
The problem is with this, is if you hire based on specific skills which may be learnable in a few hours, thats all you're likely to get. -jmz On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 5:24 PM, James Mcphee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From the same background of trying to hire people, I'm usually looking for > specific skills. So if your resume didn't get you anything, CHANGE IT!!! > With the amount of people out there, I've had to fall back onto keyword > searches to net me a somewhat sane #. And I just keep adding keywords until > the numbers get down into something I can manage. > > > -- > James McPhee > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- "Never take counsel of your fears." - Andrew Jackson - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Bryan O'Neal wrote: > ..." Even if I was, are they going to let go all of their people? Doubt > it. "... > I work/ed for a real estate company. We went from over 50 people down > to 4 in a bit over a year. It is all about the boom and bust; ride the > wave as long as you can and try to bail before you are pounded into the > shallow reef. > We've gone from ~80 employees down to 25 in about 6 months. Also the IT dept was scaled down from 5+ people to just me. We finally got a network guy rehired to help me out, but I'm still working long hours with no chance for time off. The only point Im trying to make is, don't ever think that they won't axe half the company, or an entire dept, as I have seen it happen more than once. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Depressing IT Job Prospects
..." Even if I was, are they going to let go all of their people? Doubt it. "... I work/ed for a real estate company. We went from over 50 people down to 4 in a bit over a year. It is all about the boom and bust; ride the wave as long as you can and try to bail before you are pounded into the shallow reef. That said when the money supply is expanding and the economy looks strong there are a number of fresh jobs driving up the market. When it all starts contracting there are fewer opportunities. What I can say is that if your in IT or alt energy you are going to do better during this down turn them most. BTW while it is still too early to tell, I would get out of the alt energy industry within the next year and be costing on the IT wave looking for a safe harbor before three. Just my 2 cents. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:31 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi Josh, > >Job boards, especially free ones, are not a reliable indicator. Many > people use those boards to gauge markets, which means that a lot of the > postings are not legitimate jobs. Agree strongly. Lots of spam from "recruiters" who scrape the jobs postings from the sites with positive relationships with Intel, Honeywell, GD, and Orbital and repost trying to hijack a commission. >My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. blah blah blah. Doesn't mean anything to me or Mike, who started this thread with a "what do I do with my life" post, personally. I'm not employed by those companies you're talking about. Even if I was, are they going to let go all of their people? Doubt it. Again, too much taking what the "media" is saying to heart, which are bits and pieces, taken totally out of context, of stuff that means something to Ben Bernanke and William Donaldson but nothing to me. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
>From the same background of trying to hire people, I'm usually looking for specific skills. So if your resume didn't get you anything, CHANGE IT!!! With the amount of people out there, I've had to fall back onto keyword searches to net me a somewhat sane #. And I just keep adding keywords until the numbers get down into something I can manage. -- James McPhee [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Just from personal experience trying to higher people, it is hard to get good DB, J2EE, or even HTML people. That said, I am fairly cheep and was actively looking for a bargain. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Coffman Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:59 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's a good point, Tony, but one of those articles quoted directly from the Dept. of Labor (the one with the stats), so it's not just the usual media love of blowing things out of proportion. I completely agree with you on the Valley, though--when I went back home to Reno a couple of weeks ago, I discovered the economic downturn has hit much harder there than it has here, so we're very lucky down here, IT or not. Mike My personal experience and what I see on job boards indicates that demand for programmers remains strong. Now I'm more focused on windows development because that's what I do, but I also watch non-windows ads because I'd like to get away from windows eventually. Lately I've seen job postings for MySQL admins, which is something I haven't seen in a while or maybe not ever. Usually, its for a PHP dev or Linux admin position. I'm inclined to think that demand is strong enough to warrant a dedicated MySQL position. I watch both local job boards and some for areas like L.A. Also, I should note that I'm pay attention to senior level positions because that fits me better. Although, I also look at mid-level postings for non-windows gigs. good luck -j --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
re. PHP programmers, I agree with you totally. There are lots of people who picked up PHP one day and decided they're developers, with no experience or training in software dev. Likewise, its takes a lot of effort to convince someone you're qualified in the field of PHP probably due to the points you mention. But in general, hiring is a really tricky thing in IT and there really is no science to it. If you manage to find a group of people that works well together and is productive in some way thats unique, you've struck gold. I started using PHP coming form more formal languages like C++ and Java. Even the quality of people is really totally different. With most Java developers, you can assume a certain level of knowledge. PHP people tend to be salty types, tendency towards hack-and-slash technique. Granted, these guys may know a lot about the web, etc. but they don't know jack about how to design software. In the past year though, with PHP5 you're starting to see a new class of PHP programmer emerge. I've met a lot of good people in the Drupal community, which I'm sorry to see you appear to be departing from. :( -jmz On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Alex Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > der.hans wrote: > > PHP jobs might also be in the 'fill quite easily' category. >> > > Speaking as someone who's had to fill 'PHP Developer' vacancies a few > times, I have to disagree with this claim to a certain degree. > > There is an extremely large pool of people who think of themselves as PHP > developers. Weeding through this huge pool to find the (seemingly) few who > have the experience/ability/aptitude to work on high-traffic web > applications is quite difficult. > > I attribute this to the very low barrier to entry for PHP. That's a great > quality in the language, but it makes spotting the good developers a bit > more complex. > > If you're interested in doing PHP professionally, it would serve you well > to learn the ins and outs of related technologies as well. (Mysql, > postgres, Apache, linux, javascript, etc) Familiarity with architectural > ideas like 'web services' is another smart area to invest some time in. As > I write that, I realize it's definitely not specific to PHP. I'm currently > a Ruby On Rails developer, and it's just as true now as when I was doing PHP > full-time. > > alex > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- "Never take counsel of your fears." - Andrew Jackson - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
der.hans wrote: PHP jobs might also be in the 'fill quite easily' category. Speaking as someone who's had to fill 'PHP Developer' vacancies a few times, I have to disagree with this claim to a certain degree. There is an extremely large pool of people who think of themselves as PHP developers. Weeding through this huge pool to find the (seemingly) few who have the experience/ability/aptitude to work on high-traffic web applications is quite difficult. I attribute this to the very low barrier to entry for PHP. That's a great quality in the language, but it makes spotting the good developers a bit more complex. If you're interested in doing PHP professionally, it would serve you well to learn the ins and outs of related technologies as well. (Mysql, postgres, Apache, linux, javascript, etc) Familiarity with architectural ideas like 'web services' is another smart area to invest some time in. As I write that, I realize it's definitely not specific to PHP. I'm currently a Ruby On Rails developer, and it's just as true now as when I was doing PHP full-time. alex signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Josh Coffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:30 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Yeah, you guys are right. It is circumstantial, and not scientific. Its my > opinion that demand has increased in the last year compared the the previous > 2 or 3 years. This is based on job ads, phone calls, and email I get. > > Best advice I can give about IT, is don't do it for the money. You won't be > happy as it is really draining and there is no guarantee the money will > always be there. That's true about anything really, but I think its > especially true in tech. In Mike's case, I saw him at Installfest, he was helping others more than getting help, so he likes it plenty. He just needs an official paper with a wax seal. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. > > > > blah blah blah. Doesn't mean anything to me or Mike, who started this > > thread with a "what do I do with my life" post, personally. > > Well if you want to make an informed decision as to what skills, etc. to > invest in these aspects are important. Yes, you want to be informed about whether to take basket weaving vs. I.T. Or, more realistically, going $80k into student loan debt for a degree which might pay no more than $35k, there are a bunch of those out there. The rest of your post, Josh, went into banking and the depressed economy again. The only difference that any ups and downs in the economy might make for an individual without a job in I.T. yet is, they might have to be a barista, or as I happen to know in Mike's case a motel manager, for half a year longer or so. Or maybe you have to accept a smaller salary at a company who doesn't support their I.T. as well. No big deal. Mike hasn't started his official education yet, by the time he gets out we might be in another labor shortage. There is some argument to which technologies you pick can make you more money. I like Hanz's ideas of following your heart. I know of PHP programmers who make $125 an hour, I can't do that because I don't like building e-commerce sites. I don't dislike the technology, I dislike the clientele and the application towards which they are built. I hear COBOL programmers are raking it in, but I wouldn't go out and get schooled for it if you've never programmed before. When I used to build stuff for airplanes, I loved it, now I'm building a security system and love it. I'm sticking to that kind of stuff from now on, and I'm picking up some books and equipment for that. Within the embedded systems world, people see me as an applications guy, I start with the customer's brain and drill down to the machine code from there. Other people are bit-twiddlers, they start from the opposite direction. I'm glad I found out who I am, and I hope everyone who needs to hear it sees the meta-philosophy I'm trying to get across about finding out who they are. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Am 11. Aug, 2008 schwätzte Josh Coffman so: Best advice I can give about IT, is don't do it for the money. You won't be happy as it is really draining and there is no guarantee the money will always be there. That's true about anything really, but I think its especially true in tech. Excellent point! Many jobs and industries have really bad downsides. Teachers don't get paid or treated well and the administration puts considerable effort into interfering with the education process. Nurses are overworked, underpaid and often have to deal with people who are not on their best behavior. Tech isn't that bad, but you have to learn a lot and keep learning a lot. If you don't like what you're doing, you won't keep current and you'll stagnate. Tech fields change quickly and Free Software accelerates that change. No one needs to justify their interest to the group. It's an internal decision. Doing tech stuff for work or not does not imply interest or lack of interest in Free Software or PLUG. In other words, we don't need any judgemental posts. There are areas in tech where the learning curve isn't quite so high. Many of them are non-tech jobs in tech groups or sometimes tech jobs in non-tech fields. There's also the possibility of being highly specialized or in a field that has large barriers to entry. You could also make your own job by starting your own company. The current economy is ripe for small companies that can produce good results at a low price. Free Software gives you many advantages in that arena :). As to specific fields that might be doing well, I see more and more need for networking, VoiP ( start playing with Asterisk ), java programmers and security. Database admins are still in demand, but I mostly see requests for Oracle. I think it's because Oracle is a pain and you have to keep searching and searching for Oracle DBAs in this market. MySQL and PostgreSQL admins seem to be fairly easy to find, so you don't see those jobs since they actually fill. PHP jobs might also be in the 'fill quite easily' category. Finding outstanding candidates for most any field is difficult, but most jobs don't require someone who's in the top 2% in the field. ciao, der.hans -- # Learn OpenOffice.org - http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/BPC110.html # "I have seen the enemy, and it is shiny." -- Benjy Feen, 22Jun2001--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:30 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Hi Josh, > > > >Job boards, especially free ones, are not a reliable indicator. Many > > people use those boards to gauge markets, which means that a lot of the > > postings are not legitimate jobs. > > Agree strongly. Lots of spam from "recruiters" who scrape the jobs > postings from the sites with positive relationships with Intel, Honeywell, > GD, and Orbital and repost trying to hijack a commission. > > >My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. > > blah blah blah. Doesn't mean anything to me or Mike, who started this > thread with a "what do I do with my life" post, personally. I'm not > employed by those companies you're talking about. Even if I was, are they > going to let go all of their people? Doubt it. Again, too much taking what > the "media" is saying to heart, which are bits and pieces, taken totally out > of context, of stuff that means something to Ben Bernanke and William > Donaldson but nothing to me. > > > Yeah, you guys are right. It is circumstantial, and not scientific. Its my opinion that demand has increased in the last year compared the the previous 2 or 3 years. This is based on job ads, phone calls, and email I get. Best advice I can give about IT, is don't do it for the money. You won't be happy as it is really draining and there is no guarantee the money will always be there. That's true about anything really, but I think its especially true in tech. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
I would begin by thinking of resume material. Things like an internship so you have real life experience to go with your education. Keith Smith --- On Mon, 8/11/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 11:30 AM Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi Josh, > >Job boards, especially free ones, are not a reliable indicator. Many > people use those boards to gauge markets, which means that a lot of the > postings are not legitimate jobs. Agree strongly. Lots of spam from "recruiters" who scrape the jobs postings from the sites with positive relationships with Intel, Honeywell, GD, and Orbital and repost trying to hijack a commission. >My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. blah blah blah. Doesn't mean anything to me or Mike, who started this thread with a "what do I do with my life" post, personally. I'm not employed by those companies you're talking about. Even if I was, are they going to let go all of their people? Doubt it. Again, too much taking what the "media" is saying to heart, which are bits and pieces, taken totally out of context, of stuff that means something to Ben Bernanke and William Donaldson but nothing to me. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi Josh, > >Job boards, especially free ones, are not a reliable indicator. Many > people use those boards to gauge markets, which means that a lot of the > postings are not legitimate jobs. Agree strongly. Lots of spam from "recruiters" who scrape the jobs postings from the sites with positive relationships with Intel, Honeywell, GD, and Orbital and repost trying to hijack a commission. >My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. blah blah blah. Doesn't mean anything to me or Mike, who started this thread with a "what do I do with my life" post, personally. I'm not employed by those companies you're talking about. Even if I was, are they going to let go all of their people? Doubt it. Again, too much taking what the "media" is saying to heart, which are bits and pieces, taken totally out of context, of stuff that means something to Ben Bernanke and William Donaldson but nothing to me. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Has anyone checked out Dice.com for San Diego (where I am now)? Exploding IT market. ; ) .randy On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I can offer slightly different (point of view) advice. I would recommend > doing what ever you are good at, or more precisely, where you are most > valuable. To clarify, what ever skills you can obtain that some one else is > willing to pay (a lot) for, get those skills. If those skills can align with > what you like, fantastic. The key to success in the workplace, is having > marketable skills. Marketable skills will keep you employed when times are > tough, as [EMAIL PROTECTED] stated below. That is where school can be > good, training you in areas of marketability. Just my 2 cents... > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> I was the one who suggested you should go for network administrator. I >> was looking at both your current knowledge base as well as your character. >> I think you would be pleasantly bored in class, up to a point right at the >> end when you go for your CISCO cert tests, which would have left time for >> you to make money at your day job. You also seemed to be the type who liked >> 15 minute jobs, not a software developer like me who bangs their head on one >> line of code for a week at a time. >> >> I've been at that point where everything in my life was whatever was told >> to me by the media. It sucks, bad, don't do that. Dave Ramsey, >> http://www.daveramsey.com/ , loves to tell how the mainstream media is like >> Chicken Little. They don't report, they don't provide a balanced view of >> information, it's lead with bleed, man bites dog. One article in USA Today >> last month or so headlined, "Leading real estate value stat down 14%.". >> Read the article, it said it measured the housing markets of the largest 20 >> cities of America. Dave went the whole half hour doing pretend melodrama, >> "OMG REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN PERCNT"... Then explained >> that the universe which that statistic was based on wasn't large enough, if >> you take all the house sales in the MLS in America, the statistic you get >> for many months is more like a growth of 2%. Then he took his own skewed >> universe, leaving the real estate bombs like Los Angeles, Phoenix, Las >> Vegas, and New York out of the picture, and got plenty of up 4%, up 6%, and >> up 9% cities. But that's not how the media writes it, the way they do it >> you get something that sounds like "REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN >> PERCNT", when the reality is, we have an unexciting, very slowly >> growing, with no shrinkage in growth, real estate market. Why do they do >> that? To make the presidential candidates happy? Because the media people >> live in LA and New York and consider the rest of the country "flyover" where >> nothing happens? >> >> I have a contract. They just renewed it for four additional months last >> month. I know this company better now, they'll probably renew again. I >> paid off my x-wife's car, which she deserved because she stayed with me >> through the times when I was jobless. I have 4 months expenses saved up, if >> I get 2 more roommates today, that number will go up to 6 months. My >> personal economy is great, so that stuff that happens in the news... is >> just stuff. When you're ready to take bumps and unexpected hurdles, they >> don't affect you, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep it that >> way. Anything that slows down my plan of paying my house off in 6 or 7 >> years I won't accept, I'll be on top of it and change my situation that >> week. >> >> The jobless statistics are relevant only for the jobless. If you're a >> network admin of a company who likes you, and who you like, you aren't going >> anywhere. It's like their accountant or their HR director or even their >> HVAC guy. They know the company, the company knows them, any change would >> disrupt their company for three months or so. And the news stories: "oh >> real estate is down, we have to let go our accountant and only HR person and >> HVAC guy until it improves" doesn't happen. It does happen if the company >> is about to close down, not because "the economy is slow". If the company >> plans their personal finances well (as you should plan your personal >> finances), then they should be able to absorb the slowing in sales until the >> next surge comes. >> >> Now as a software guy like myself, it's almost the opposite. The economy >> could be going great, but the project I'm working on has ended. If I'm a >> W-2, it's like they have to find a really bizarre excuse to keep me busy. >> No thanks, let me know when it's ended so I can start looking again, and >> pay me big so I can afford to take those months off. But that's just me. >> >> Hope that helps on your outlook. >> >> >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> > I've seen a pair of articles on /. about the d
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Josh Coffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:59 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> That's a good point, Tony, but one of those articles quoted directly >> from the Dept. of Labor (the one with the stats), so it's not just the >> usual media love of blowing things out of proportion. I completely >> agree with you on the Valley, though--when I went back home to Reno a >> couple of weeks ago, I discovered the economic downturn has hit much >> harder there than it has here, so we're very lucky down here, IT or not. >> >> Mike >> >> > > My personal experience and what I see on job boards indicates that demand > for programmers remains strong. > Hi Josh, Job boards, especially free ones, are not a reliable indicator. Many people use those boards to gauge markets, which means that a lot of the postings are not legitimate jobs. My take on the economy: there is a major reorientation underway. We have just funneled an enormous amount of tax money into insolvent semi-private institutions, which not only is a huge expense, it stands as perhaps one of the greatest erosions of american commercial concepts in history. Remember these same people who we are bailing out were stating huge profits (private profits) as little as 2 years ago. Any economic region based on real estate is going to deflate severely. Most raw material and agro commodities will retain their value, while all RE assets and just about any job market related to it will be a wash. I had mentioned before that the direction the economy is going might very well be a GOOD thing for FOSS developers. I concede that a weaker comparative dollar will actually stimulate the FOSS sector. Licensed software is supported by this currency differential, take it away and much of the wealth will shift into other schema. jmz > Now I'm more focused on windows development because that's what I do, but I > also watch non-windows ads because I'd like to get away from windows > eventually. > > Lately I've seen job postings for MySQL admins, which is something I > haven't seen in a while or maybe not ever. Usually, its for a PHP dev or > Linux admin position. I'm inclined to think that demand is strong enough to > warrant a dedicated MySQL position. > > I watch both local job boards and some for areas like L.A. Also, I should > note that I'm pay attention to senior level positions because that fits me > better. Although, I also look at mid-level postings for non-windows gigs. > > good luck > -j > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- "Never take counsel of your fears." - Andrew Jackson - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
I can offer slightly different (point of view) advice. I would recommend doing what ever you are good at, or more precisely, where you are most valuable. To clarify, what ever skills you can obtain that some one else is willing to pay (a lot) for, get those skills. If those skills can align with what you like, fantastic. The key to success in the workplace, is having marketable skills. Marketable skills will keep you employed when times are tough, as [EMAIL PROTECTED] stated below. That is where school can be good, training you in areas of marketability. Just my 2 cents... Eric On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I was the one who suggested you should go for network administrator. I was > looking at both your current knowledge base as well as your character. I > think you would be pleasantly bored in class, up to a point right at the end > when you go for your CISCO cert tests, which would have left time for you to > make money at your day job. You also seemed to be the type who liked 15 > minute jobs, not a software developer like me who bangs their head on one > line of code for a week at a time. > > I've been at that point where everything in my life was whatever was told > to me by the media. It sucks, bad, don't do that. Dave Ramsey, > http://www.daveramsey.com/ , loves to tell how the mainstream media is > like Chicken Little. They don't report, they don't provide a balanced view > of information, it's lead with bleed, man bites dog. One article in USA > Today last month or so headlined, "Leading real estate value stat down > 14%.". Read the article, it said it measured the housing markets of the > largest 20 cities of America. Dave went the whole half hour doing pretend > melodrama, "OMG REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN PERCNT"... Then > explained that the universe which that statistic was based on wasn't large > enough, if you take all the house sales in the MLS in America, the statistic > you get for many months is more like a growth of 2%. Then he took his own > skewed universe, leaving the real estate bombs like Los Angeles, Phoenix, > Las Vegas, and New York out of the picture, and got plenty of up 4%, up 6%, > and up 9% cities. But that's not how the media writes it, the way they do > it you get something that sounds like "REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN > PERCNT", when the reality is, we have an unexciting, very slowly > growing, with no shrinkage in growth, real estate market. Why do they do > that? To make the presidential candidates happy? Because the media people > live in LA and New York and consider the rest of the country "flyover" where > nothing happens? > > I have a contract. They just renewed it for four additional months last > month. I know this company better now, they'll probably renew again. I > paid off my x-wife's car, which she deserved because she stayed with me > through the times when I was jobless. I have 4 months expenses saved up, if > I get 2 more roommates today, that number will go up to 6 months. My > personal economy is great, so that stuff that happens in the news... is > just stuff. When you're ready to take bumps and unexpected hurdles, they > don't affect you, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep it that > way. Anything that slows down my plan of paying my house off in 6 or 7 > years I won't accept, I'll be on top of it and change my situation that > week. > > The jobless statistics are relevant only for the jobless. If you're a > network admin of a company who likes you, and who you like, you aren't going > anywhere. It's like their accountant or their HR director or even their > HVAC guy. They know the company, the company knows them, any change would > disrupt their company for three months or so. And the news stories: "oh > real estate is down, we have to let go our accountant and only HR person and > HVAC guy until it improves" doesn't happen. It does happen if the company > is about to close down, not because "the economy is slow". If the company > plans their personal finances well (as you should plan your personal > finances), then they should be able to absorb the slowing in sales until the > next surge comes. > > Now as a software guy like myself, it's almost the opposite. The economy > could be going great, but the project I'm working on has ended. If I'm a > W-2, it's like they have to find a really bizarre excuse to keep me busy. > No thanks, let me know when it's ended so I can start looking again, and > pay me big so I can afford to take those months off. But that's just me. > > Hope that helps on your outlook. > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I've seen a pair of articles on /. about the depressing state of IT > > right now, and it's making me, well, depressed! My plan was to go to > > community college in January (after getting my year residency here in > > Arizona) and fix what I screwed up years ago (dropping out of college), > > but now
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
I was the one who suggested you should go for network administrator. I was looking at both your current knowledge base as well as your character. I think you would be pleasantly bored in class, up to a point right at the end when you go for your CISCO cert tests, which would have left time for you to make money at your day job. You also seemed to be the type who liked 15 minute jobs, not a software developer like me who bangs their head on one line of code for a week at a time. I've been at that point where everything in my life was whatever was told to me by the media. It sucks, bad, don't do that. Dave Ramsey, http://www.daveramsey.com/ , loves to tell how the mainstream media is like Chicken Little. They don't report, they don't provide a balanced view of information, it's lead with bleed, man bites dog. One article in USA Today last month or so headlined, "Leading real estate value stat down 14%.". Read the article, it said it measured the housing markets of the largest 20 cities of America. Dave went the whole half hour doing pretend melodrama, "OMG REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN PERCNT"... Then explained that the universe which that statistic was based on wasn't large enough, if you take all the house sales in the MLS in America, the statistic you get for many months is more like a growth of 2%. Then he took his own skewed universe, leaving the real estate bombs like Los Angeles, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and New York out of the picture, and got plenty of up 4%, up 6%, and up 9% cities. But that's not how the media writes it, the way they do it you get something that sounds like "REAL ESTATE IS DOWN FOURTEEEN PERCNT", when the reality is, we have an unexciting, very slowly growing, with no shrinkage in growth, real estate market. Why do they do that? To make the presidential candidates happy? Because the media people live in LA and New York and consider the rest of the country "flyover" where nothing happens? I have a contract. They just renewed it for four additional months last month. I know this company better now, they'll probably renew again. I paid off my x-wife's car, which she deserved because she stayed with me through the times when I was jobless. I have 4 months expenses saved up, if I get 2 more roommates today, that number will go up to 6 months. My personal economy is great, so that stuff that happens in the news... is just stuff. When you're ready to take bumps and unexpected hurdles, they don't affect you, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep it that way. Anything that slows down my plan of paying my house off in 6 or 7 years I won't accept, I'll be on top of it and change my situation that week. The jobless statistics are relevant only for the jobless. If you're a network admin of a company who likes you, and who you like, you aren't going anywhere. It's like their accountant or their HR director or even their HVAC guy. They know the company, the company knows them, any change would disrupt their company for three months or so. And the news stories: "oh real estate is down, we have to let go our accountant and only HR person and HVAC guy until it improves" doesn't happen. It does happen if the company is about to close down, not because "the economy is slow". If the company plans their personal finances well (as you should plan your personal finances), then they should be able to absorb the slowing in sales until the next surge comes. Now as a software guy like myself, it's almost the opposite. The economy could be going great, but the project I'm working on has ended. If I'm a W-2, it's like they have to find a really bizarre excuse to keep me busy. No thanks, let me know when it's ended so I can start looking again, and pay me big so I can afford to take those months off. But that's just me. Hope that helps on your outlook. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I've seen a pair of articles on /. about the depressing state of IT > right now, and it's making me, well, depressed! My plan was to go to > community college in January (after getting my year residency here in > Arizona) and fix what I screwed up years ago (dropping out of college), > but now I'm wondering whether I'd be wasting my time and money. Someone > at an installfest a few months ago (sorry I forgot your name, I'm > horrible for that) said to go for Network Admin because it's a fast > course and pays well (I'm 37), but now that I see all this with, > depending on how you look at it, 44k to 50k IT jobs gone this year alone > and more to come, well...maybe I should resign myself to hospitality or > driving for a living. > > Is this mostly FUD or is it really as bad as it's being made out to be? > Is Net Admin the way to go for someone my age, or is there something > else I should consider? > > Thanks for reading my 3am thoughts. > > Mike > --- > PLUG-di
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:59 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's a good point, Tony, but one of those articles quoted directly > from the Dept. of Labor (the one with the stats), so it's not just the > usual media love of blowing things out of proportion. I completely > agree with you on the Valley, though--when I went back home to Reno a > couple of weeks ago, I discovered the economic downturn has hit much > harder there than it has here, so we're very lucky down here, IT or not. > > Mike > > My personal experience and what I see on job boards indicates that demand for programmers remains strong. Now I'm more focused on windows development because that's what I do, but I also watch non-windows ads because I'd like to get away from windows eventually. Lately I've seen job postings for MySQL admins, which is something I haven't seen in a while or maybe not ever. Usually, its for a PHP dev or Linux admin position. I'm inclined to think that demand is strong enough to warrant a dedicated MySQL position. I watch both local job boards and some for areas like L.A. Also, I should note that I'm pay attention to senior level positions because that fits me better. Although, I also look at mid-level postings for non-windows gigs. good luck -j --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
That's a good point, Tony, but one of those articles quoted directly from the Dept. of Labor (the one with the stats), so it's not just the usual media love of blowing things out of proportion. I completely agree with you on the Valley, though--when I went back home to Reno a couple of weeks ago, I discovered the economic downturn has hit much harder there than it has here, so we're very lucky down here, IT or not. Mike On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 04:28:30 -0700, "Tony E - Jaraeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Don't trust everything you see & hear on /. ... Take a look at all the > media outlooks and gather a more average outlook on the IT market. > Arizona, especially the Valley, are ripe for IT. It's all in the local > market, read your local paper such as AZCentral.com online, or pick up a > trees worth of fiber & ink. Flagstaff, Tucson, Prescott & Phoenix all > vary greatly from one another as far as what is available for the IT > market. > > Ciao, > > Tony E > "Raptus regaliter" > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.phoenixwing.com/ > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I've seen a pair of articles on /. about the depressing state of IT > > right now, and it's making me, well, depressed! My plan was to go to > > community college in January (after getting my year residency here in > > Arizona) and fix what I screwed up years ago (dropping out of college), > > but now I'm wondering whether I'd be wasting my time and money. Someone > > at an installfest a few months ago (sorry I forgot your name, I'm > > horrible for that) said to go for Network Admin because it's a fast > > course and pays well (I'm 37), but now that I see all this with, > > depending on how you look at it, 44k to 50k IT jobs gone this year alone > > and more to come, well...maybe I should resign myself to hospitality or > > driving for a living. > > > > Is this mostly FUD or is it really as bad as it's being made out to be? > > Is Net Admin the way to go for someone my age, or is there something > > else I should consider? > > > > Thanks for reading my 3am thoughts. > > > > Mike > > --- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Depressing IT Job Prospects
Don't trust everything you see & hear on /. ... Take a look at all the media outlooks and gather a more average outlook on the IT market. Arizona, especially the Valley, are ripe for IT. It's all in the local market, read your local paper such as AZCentral.com online, or pick up a trees worth of fiber & ink. Flagstaff, Tucson, Prescott & Phoenix all vary greatly from one another as far as what is available for the IT market. Ciao, Tony E "Raptus regaliter" [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixwing.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I've seen a pair of articles on /. about the depressing state of IT > right now, and it's making me, well, depressed! My plan was to go to > community college in January (after getting my year residency here in > Arizona) and fix what I screwed up years ago (dropping out of college), > but now I'm wondering whether I'd be wasting my time and money. Someone > at an installfest a few months ago (sorry I forgot your name, I'm > horrible for that) said to go for Network Admin because it's a fast > course and pays well (I'm 37), but now that I see all this with, > depending on how you look at it, 44k to 50k IT jobs gone this year alone > and more to come, well...maybe I should resign myself to hospitality or > driving for a living. > > Is this mostly FUD or is it really as bad as it's being made out to be? > Is Net Admin the way to go for someone my age, or is there something > else I should consider? > > Thanks for reading my 3am thoughts. > > Mike > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
