Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/2011 7:57 PM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: ki...@kirpi.it (2011-09-13 00:48): I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to TYPO3. <..> Do others really like the presentation trend of textpattern.com, wordpress.org, contao.org? This trend: 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ (a bit like PmWiki?). Way too busy in terms of sections on the screen. Also too many and non-complimentary colors. 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ (did I just visit wordpress.org?). Much nicer, and good use of whitespace. Although I dislike the black bar on the top. The other thing I like about this homepage is the "WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHOOSE SYMFONY?" -- exactly the information a first-time visitor is likely to want to see. 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... With regards to [2] I don't view high usage as a negative. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/2011 7:17 PM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Though I think that using the same skin for the home page and installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and colors. It's important to have a simple(ish) skin for newcomers to use in the distribution. I don't think it needs to be the same as the one used on pmwiki.org. What we could do is include two skins with the distribution. One is the simple version which is active by default from the standard config.php. The other we include could be a *slightly* more sophisticated skin which would be used on pmwiki.org. This provides a way to improve the pmwiki.org look and show some pmwiki capabilities, as well as providing a simple launch point from a first install. ~ ~ Dave ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] pmwiki.org: mini sidebar cleanup?
In the previous discussion, there was talk about less links on the homepage. Some observations regarding the sidebar: 1. Is a link to Site/AllRecentChangesShort still needed? Site/AllRecentChanges loads in 1 s, Site/AllRecentChangesShort loads in 0.5 s. Perhaps the „All recent changes“ link could point to Site/AllRecentChanges with a month worth of history, which in turn would have a link to Site/AllRecentChangesFull? 2. The „Cookbook“ link could be clearer to newcomers. Perhaps Cookbook (extensions) or Cookbook (add-ons) 3. The links to „PmWiki users“ and „Success stories“ could be combined (they already point to each other). 4. What about a simple „Donate“ under the PmWiki sidehead, instead of „Send Pm money“? 5. On the homepage, there is „Other languages“ in the sidebar, (:include OtherLanguages:) in PmWiki.PmWiki and a list of languages from PmWiki.GroupFooter. Not sure whether this could be improved, but it feels redundant. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
ki...@kirpi.it (2011-09-13 00:48): > I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like > Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to > TYPO3. <..> Do others really like the presentation trend of textpattern.com, wordpress.org, contao.org? This trend: 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ (a bit like PmWiki?). 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ (did I just visit wordpress.org?). 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Agreed. On Monday 19 September 2011 01:17:53, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > using the same skin for the home page and > installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to > newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for > distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and > colors. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Petko Yotov (2011-09-18 20:55): > On Sunday 18 September 2011 13:18:58, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > > The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too > > loaded for me. > > These are sources for ideas more for the pmwiki.org home page than for a new > default skin in the distribution. > > We want a simple, minimal skin for an empty PmWiki installation, that would > be > easier for new admins to understand and customize. > > For the pmwiki.org home page, we want a well balanced selection of features, > content, links and styles to show better the PmWiki potential and continuous > development. Thank you for clarifying. Though I think that using the same skin for the home page and installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and colors. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Make that a width of 35em. My error. On 19/09/11 10:34 AM, John Rankin wrote: On 19/09/11 8:11 AM, Carlos AB wrote: You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. In particular, the body text would be more readable if the width were narrower. To achieve an average of 60-70 characters per line of text, which I understand is optimal (see for example http://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability -- an example of tidy, minimal design, although 17pt Arial?), a width of around 45em is more suitable. A too narrow sidebar could be problematic. The page above uses a sidebar to body ratio of 1:2. It also has serif headings with sans body. The comments are interesting too -- in particular the suggestion to increase the inter-line spacing over the default value. Bringhurst (The Elements of Typographic Style) recommends an average of 66 characters per line. JR On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): Hi Forgeot, List, I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there in http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css -- John Rankin Affinity Limited T 64 4 495 3737 F 64 4 473 7991 M 021 RANKIN john.ran...@affinity.co.nz www.affinity.co.nz ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 19/09/11 8:11 AM, Carlos AB wrote: You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. In particular, the body text would be more readable if the width were narrower. To achieve an average of 60-70 characters per line of text, which I understand is optimal (see for example http://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability -- an example of tidy, minimal design, although 17pt Arial?), a width of around 45em is more suitable. A too narrow sidebar could be problematic. The page above uses a sidebar to body ratio of 1:2. It also has serif headings with sans body. The comments are interesting too -- in particular the suggestion to increase the inter-line spacing over the default value. Bringhurst (The Elements of Typographic Style) recommends an average of 66 characters per line. JR On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): Hi Forgeot, List, I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there in http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css -- John Rankin Affinity Limited T 64 4 495 3737 F 64 4 473 7991 M 021 RANKIN john.ran...@affinity.co.nz www.affinity.co.nz ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/11, Carlos AB wrote: > On 9/17/11, V.Krishn wrote: >> There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet >> without >> using javascript. >> Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like >> 1. High contrast >> 2. Low contrast >> 3. 16 color >> 4. High color >> ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. >> >> >> > title="High Contrast Color Style" /> >> > title="Low Contrast Color Style" /> >> >> I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. >> I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. >> >> -- >> Regards. >> V.Krishn > > If we have to consider older browsers as a target, the ones without > support for it, than we will have to use another mechanism, such as > this: > > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/ > > CarlosAB > It's the same principal mechanism, but with some javascript to help older browsers see it CarlosAB. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/17/11, V.Krishn wrote: > There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet > without > using javascript. > Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like > 1. High contrast > 2. Low contrast > 3. 16 color > 4. High color > ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. > > > title="High Contrast Color Style" /> > title="Low Contrast Color Style" /> > > I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. > I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. > > -- > Regards. > V.Krishn If we have to consider older browsers as a target, the ones without support for it, than we will have to use another mechanism, such as this: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/ CarlosAB ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I left the mock-up there so people could add or modify the skin idea more easily, before it is finally "put on paper". Change the size and proportions, decide to use the search as an action on the action bar or put the form somewhere on the side bar and other changes people may find significant. You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. Also, the dark frame around the content area, helps a bit to make It look less simpler. The css and tmpl are smaller and simpler than PmWiki's default and that is a good thing. Another thing to look at is if the skin looks good in different browsers and if layout won't break in different situations with those same browsers. Other than that, it looks ok to me. Thank you, CarlosAB On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: > Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): >> Hi Forgeot, List, >> >> I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea >> there in >> >> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB >> >> Feel free to comment and post new ideas. > > I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css > > I am not yet sure were to use it, but it will find a place :) > > Anyone else interested in this design, should I upload it to pmwiki.org? > > What about something similar as a new default? > > Some random points regarding this discussion, after making my skin and > looking through http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01265: > 1. The default skin should be updated. It doesn't have to be a complete >facelift, and the new skin shouldn't become too complex. But is there a >consensus which path to take (more features or less clutter)? > >My skin doesn't show any new features, but I find its .tmpl and .css >files simpler than pmwiki's default. > >The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too >loaded for me. > > 2. In my skin, it is easy to add configurable colors, include >Site.WikiFoot as a footer page, but it is hard to find a place for a >header and a searchbox. Though constraining, such a minimal design >forces us to abandon clutter. > > 3. It is hard to „Easily switch to right sidebar.“ without using tables >(various scrolling, text zooming, overflow problems arise). Are there >any new sites using tables nowadays? > > 4. I think that it is impossible to have a flexible layout and a centered >page, though full-zoom of modern browsers might be a solution (but one >mustn't forget that the point of zoom is to increase the text size). > > -- > -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Sunday 18 September 2011 13:18:58, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too > loaded for me. These are sources for ideas more for the pmwiki.org home page than for a new default skin in the distribution. We want a simple, minimal skin for an empty PmWiki installation, that would be easier for new admins to understand and customize. For the pmwiki.org home page, we want a well balanced selection of features, content, links and styles to show better the PmWiki potential and continuous development. Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
So easily forgotten, and all too seldom used! On 2011-09-18 1:20 am, V.Krishn wrote: On Sunday, September 18, 2011 03:19:43 AM Carlos AB wrote: I agree, even though I have never worked with people with such disabilities, It is good to know that they found no problems understanding how PmWiki differentiates one type of link from the other, and also that people writing skins for PmWiki have to think about a lot when trying to make a new move. There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet without using javascript. Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like 1. High contrast 2. Low contrast 3. 16 color 4. High color ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I think a new skin development should address the fact that more and more users access web pages on small displays, on mobile devices, on small phone screens, tablets and wide screen monitors. It would be nice if a skin could accommodate all of these hugely different screen sizes, and not burden the admin person to cater for different screen sizes by adding extra skins and filter mechanisms for these skins. The skin template should filter to different css. If the PmWiki default skin could do this, basically using perhaps three different style sheets to cater for text screen phones, for mobile devices like iphones, and for bigger screens like tablets and monitors, then this would give a useful blueprint for skin developers as well as being easy for first time installs. That's really my biggest wish for a modern skin. Otherwise I just got some niggles, like (:noaction:) suppressing the action nav links at the top, but not below the content, and fixed pixel sizes rather than proportional sizes in the css. Also: If the sidebar gets moved to the right, it would make it easier to drop it below the content for devices with small widths like phones, rather than having it appear before the page content. ~Hans ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): > Hi Forgeot, List, > > I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there > in > > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB > > Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css I am not yet sure were to use it, but it will find a place :) Anyone else interested in this design, should I upload it to pmwiki.org? What about something similar as a new default? Some random points regarding this discussion, after making my skin and looking through http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01265: 1. The default skin should be updated. It doesn't have to be a complete facelift, and the new skin shouldn't become too complex. But is there a consensus which path to take (more features or less clutter)? My skin doesn't show any new features, but I find its .tmpl and .css files simpler than pmwiki's default. The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too loaded for me. 2. In my skin, it is easy to add configurable colors, include Site.WikiFoot as a footer page, but it is hard to find a place for a header and a searchbox. Though constraining, such a minimal design forces us to abandon clutter. 3. It is hard to „Easily switch to right sidebar.“ without using tables (various scrolling, text zooming, overflow problems arise). Are there any new sites using tables nowadays? 4. I think that it is impossible to have a flexible layout and a centered page, though full-zoom of modern browsers might be a solution (but one mustn't forget that the point of zoom is to increase the text size). -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
