Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Worth reviewing http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/RoadMap-Talk On 30 April 2012 04:35, Eric Forgeot wrote: > On 28/04/2012 03:30, tamouse mailing lists wrote: > > opposite way. The default skin for the installation should really be > > the simplest set of elements of all, the minimum needed to get a site > > functional. > > I agree. It should be simple, easily expandable. And nice-looking. It's > not incompatible. But the table should be avoided, it's better to use > CSS to achieve the same effect. > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- http://kiwiwiki.co.nz ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 28/04/2012 03:30, tamouse mailing lists wrote: > opposite way. The default skin for the installation should really be > the simplest set of elements of all, the minimum needed to get a site > functional. I agree. It should be simple, easily expandable. And nice-looking. It's not incompatible. But the table should be avoided, it's better to use CSS to achieve the same effect. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Al Louis Ripskis wrote: > Sep 11, 2011 3:35 PM Eric Forgeot wrote: > why not a new default pmwiki skin?- for the default installation and for the > http://www.pmwiki.org website? The current ... looks like it was designed in > 1992, I know this has gone round and round. However, I'm going to argue the opposite way. The default skin for the installation should really be the simplest set of elements of all, the minimum needed to get a site functional. Many of the more whizzy and advanced skins create implementation requirements which may not be what the new user wants. As an implementer, I much prefer to design my own skins anyway. The collection of skins in the Cookbook is the place to point people into looking for skins that fit their needs more. As for the pmwiki.org *site* -- that could use a face-lift, possibly. But as it's Pm's site, I would leave that up to him. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Hi Al, Friday, April 27, 2012, 2:10:05 PM, you wrote: > Hans, can I use this new template to update the Triad skin that I > have been using and which you developed? I have been using the skin on a number of sites, without getting negative feedback. That said, I have not polished the skin for release. There are a number of issues which I was not sure about how to resolve. And it would need quite a bit of documentation, to explain this very different approach. Proportional image scaling is one, for instance. Most editing users are used to use images to a certain pixel size, rather than having the image adapt to the proportional size of the container, say 50% width, or 33% width of page width. I wanted that, but it gets confusing for most to have to specify proportional widths. It requires to think about layout differently. But I do wish to release my new skin. Just had a quick look, and I will try to go over a few things, then perhaps mail it to you to try out, if you like. But I can't offer too much hand-holding. HTML5 templates are really nice and easy to read. But the various css style sheets I employed are a bit more challenging. But you can take a look if you like. It is certainly not a simple enough skin to become a new PmWiki default skin. Same as the Triad skin, a fairly complex but flexible beast. Best regards, Hans www.softflow.co.uk ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Sep 11, 2011 3:35 PM Eric Forgeot wrote: why not a new default pmwiki skin?- for the default installation and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? The current ... looks like it was designed in 1992, My question is to Hans, because as I see from his website: "Latest project: Developing a new wiki site template, using new HTML5 elements and proportional layout scaling, so a site will look good and function well on desktop, laptop, handheld and mobile devices. This site is already using this new template." Hans, can I use this new template to update the Triad skin that I have been using and which you developed? Thanks, Al ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 23 September 2011 04:07, Paul Giacherio wrote: > >> > 2] Utilizes simple media queries to ensure the design is functional all > the way down to mobile sizes > > 4] Moves all [and i mean ALL] standard style declarations into the default > css file - the current, occasional, header style injection can be maddening > to a first-time customizer > 5] Is structurally table-less > > I am so with you on this, especially [4]. Plus if must be extensible by novice users simply by adding CSS and adjusting the template. Simon ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin! (Hans)
I agree we must support a wide range of media sizes (but not label them by device type). I think CSS rather than a separate skin is definitely the way to go Simon On 20 September 2011 19:42, Ville Takanen wrote: > Another approach would be to use CSS media width rules. These work quite > well in current phones and tablets. > > http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/04/targeted-css/ > > > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Forgeot Eric wrote: > >> > Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices >> > as well as desktop screens? >> >> I think the best is to fallback to another skin, with this convenient >> cookbook: >> >> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile >> >> even for skin using non fixed width, it's generally not usable on mobile >> devices, for example the sidebar menu itself is generally bigger than the >> mobile screen. >> >> ___ >> pmwiki-users mailing list >> pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com >> http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users >> > > > > -- > -- > Ville Takanen > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> >>About 4]+5], the (:noleft:) feature in a table-less skin may require some >> CSS >>injection, either inline in the html page, or via a to an >> additional > > Indeed, the ability to suppress sections makes a CSS implementation > harder. Thanks for the reminder. Agreed. Maybe a little pragmatism would be wise. While avoiding tables when css offer a better solution is a Good Thing, if the code for a table-less design is more complex (and maybe less reliable) than using a table, why choose complexity over simplicity? It would be better to adopt a pure css design because "the css solution is better" rather than because "tables are a Bad Thing." In design matters, I believe there is a saying that if you choose to break the rules, that's OK, but you need to know what the rules are and why you are breaking them. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Petko Yotov wrote: >> 1] Is centered, and has a flexible width to a point - the left-aligned, >> full width current skin is difficult on big screens >> 2] Utilizes simple media queries to ensure the design is functional all the >> way down to mobile sizes >> 3] Includes a css reset and solid standard typographic style > >I think this sums up the points on which we all agree. I almost forgot: There are pages (e.g. with large tables) where the full width is definitely needed. Maybe it's simple to remove the width limit with a table directive? [...] >About 4]+5], the (:noleft:) feature in a table-less skin may require some CSS >injection, either inline in the html page, or via a to an additional Indeed, the ability to suppress sections makes a CSS implementation harder. Thanks for the reminder. Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Sorry, there is an error in my last posting:
>I have a different apporach: I change the style of the current action
>e.g. the background colour, for example with a background colour and
>not being a link:
>
> $HTMLStylesFmt[] = ' .{$Action} { background-color: lightblue; }';
this adds bacground colour for the current action, but this:
> SetTmplDisplay('PageActionFmt',0);
Was wrong. I use
if($action == "browse") $LinkPageSelfFmt =
"\$LinkText"; # avoid self-links
but I don't remember why I limited this to the "browse" action. There
was a reason, though...
Oliver
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Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
ABClf wrote:
>This history big button, next to edit button, is (in my opinion) a
>good way to show possible users how a page is done, to enlighten the
>fact such a page is a result of x revisions and to appeal the click. I
>like that.
>(edit button should then become view button when in edit mode, if
>someone knows how to do that).
>
>(same, in current PmWiki, I suggest actions link should be showed
>accordingly to the current mode : no view when viewing, no edit when
>editing. Unless there is a reason I dont see to print them
>unconditionally.)
I have a different apporach: I change the style of the current action
e.g. the background colour, for example with a background colour and
not being a link:
$HTMLStylesFmt[] = ' .{$Action} { background-color: lightblue; }';
SetTmplDisplay('PageActionFmt',0);
This way, the current action is immediately visible but no link.
Oliver
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Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Paul Giacherio wrote: >A css reset is just a group of css declarations which aim to iron out >browser rendering inconsistencies: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/ What's bad with inconsistencies per se? IMO css resets are harmful, e.g. with respect to accessibility. It reminds me of times where people wanted to control web page display to the pixel position. BTW: Regarding typography, http://alexpoole.info/which-are-more-legible-serif-or-sans-serif-typefaces is listing several studies about serif vs. sans serif. Sadly with several dead links. Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
rogu...@googlemail.com (2011-09-22 21:51): > 3. Is a CSS reset (unified CSS stylesheets across browsers) really >required? Is this merely perfectionism, or are there some crazy >differences between browser-default stylesheets? Ok, I thought that CSS reset meant unifying styles across browsers, but looking at http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/, its point seems to be doing away with uncontrollable whitespace (margins, paddings, borders etc.) around elements. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Thursday, September 22, 2011, 10:21:35 PM, Petko Yotov wrote:
>> 4] Moves all [and i mean ALL] standard style declarations into the default
>> css file - the current, occasional, header style injection can be maddening
>> to a first-time customizer
> I agree, but we should go there carefully. Moving these core styles to the
> pmwiki.css file will make them unavailable for existing skins -- published to
> the Cookbook or personal. But it is doable/fixable.
This was discussed years ago on this list.
Don't know if there is a PITS entry for this.
It was suggested to introduce a variable, like
$EnablePmWikiCoreCss, and introduce a pub/cs/pmwiki-core.css
stylesheet.
In absence of this I added such a file to my skins FixFlow, Gemini and
Triad, and use a variable in the skin template, $PmWikiCoreStylesFmt,
which will point to the relevant core style sheet, via the following php
code in the skin php file:
# pmwiki core styles get injected into by default
# This disables this injection and loads the styles from core.css file instead
SDV($EnablePmWikiCoreCss,1);
global $HTMLStylesFmt, $PmWikiCoreStylesFmt, $PmWikiCoreCss, $FarmPubDirUrl,
$FarmD;
if($EnablePmWikiCoreCss==1) {
# awaiting pmwiki suport for pmwiki-core.css, $PmWikiCoreCss may need update!
SDV($PmWikiCoreCss, "pmwiki-core.css");
if(file_exists("$FarmD/pub/css/$PmWikiCoreCss")) SDV($PmWikiCoreStylesFmt, "
");
else
SDV($PmWikiCoreStylesFmt, "
");
$HTMLStylesFmt['pmwiki'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['diff'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['simuledit'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['markup'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['urlapprove'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['vardoc'] = '';
$HTMLStylesFmt['wikistyles']= '';
}
~Hans
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Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
if the skin is changed, please make the menu and the content independently scrollable. Today, if you scroll down a long page the navigation area on the left side disapears, if you need it you have to scroll up again. This is especially user hostile for the current-page-navigation links I like to put on the menu. Walter ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Thursday 22 September 2011 18:07:43, Paul Giacherio wrote : > there's a lot of great feedback here that I think > is really valuable. I strongly agree! Thank you all! > Form my perspective, I'd like to see a default pmwiki skin that: > > 1] Is centered, and has a flexible width to a point - the left-aligned, > full width current skin is difficult on big screens > 2] Utilizes simple media queries to ensure the design is functional all the > way down to mobile sizes > 3] Includes a css reset and solid standard typographic style I think this sums up the points on which we all agree. > 4] Moves all [and i mean ALL] standard style declarations into the default > css file - the current, occasional, header style injection can be maddening > to a first-time customizer I agree, but we should go there carefully. Moving these core styles to the pmwiki.css file will make them unavailable for existing skins -- published to the Cookbook or personal. But it is doable/fixable. > 5] Is structurally table-less Patrick has a pragmatic approach about skins (and about everything): the default skin needs a number of features that work in most browsers and that are simple enough for a newcomer to understand and customize: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user/31185/ I think the goals outlined in that message still apply. Only the browsers have greatly improved their CSS compatibility so this might be finaly achievable. About 4]+5], the (:noleft:) feature in a table-less skin may require some CSS injection, either inline in the html page, or via a to an additional stylesheet (slightly slower as the browser will have to fetch another file). Thanks, Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> A css reset is just a group of css declarations which aim to iron out > browser rendering inconsistencies: > http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/ > > Once you do that, it's much easier to control elements and do things like > work with a baseline grid, etc. Thank you. If this approach was built into the default pmwiki skin, would new users, who may not be html and css experts, perhaps see it as a complication that unnecessarily raises the barrier to entry? > > None of this directly addresses the 'vspace' issue outlined below. > However, > the repetitive injection of the vspace class is an indicator (to me at > least) that there might be more efficient ways to style the default html > elements. If you flip the problem around, default html tags should be > acceptable most of the time and you add classes only when you need to > alter > the default styling. This adds weight to the suggestion that lessvspace should be added to the elements that need it, rather than the current use of the vspace class. > > A reset and some standard typography css just makes it easier to get html > tags to look acceptable as the default. > >> > see the "vspace revisited" discussion in this list started 2011-07-22. >> > >> > Anyway, having more paragraphs _with_ vspace than without is not >> > beautiful in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more elegant to use a class >> > "lessvspace" for the small number of paragraphs where the vertical >> > space is not wanted? >> >> This is a very interesting suggestion and makes good sense to me. It is >> almost as easy to implement as moving class='vspace' onto every element >> that can be preceded by > the tag isn't preceded by a vspace. >> >> However, I would really like to understand what is meant by "proper css >> reset" and how it would distinguish between: >> * a list item with no vspace above >> * a following item with no vspace above >> >> * another item with vspace above >> >> Followed by a paragraph with vspace above. >> >> Plus all the other spaced/unspaced combinations an author may use, so >> pmwiki continues to honour the author's intentions. >> -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> Forgeot Eric (2011-09-21 22:08): >> > http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex >> > The way fonts are specified is not good: > * font-family:Georgia; > * font-family:Arial; > They need a serif and sans-serif fallbacks respectively. If a design like this is adopted for pmwiki.org, it may be better to use the serif for headings and sans for body (as discussed earlier). JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
A css reset is just a group of css declarations which aim to iron out browser rendering inconsistencies: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/ Once you do that, it's much easier to control elements and do things like work with a baseline grid, etc. None of this directly addresses the 'vspace' issue outlined below. However, the repetitive injection of the vspace class is an indicator (to me at least) that there might be more efficient ways to style the default html elements. If you flip the problem around, default html tags should be acceptable most of the time and you add classes only when you need to alter the default styling. A reset and some standard typography css just makes it easier to get html tags to look acceptable as the default. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:19 AM, John Rankin wrote: > > > Paul Giacherio wrote: > > > >>The .vspace function can be eliminated if we include a proper css reset. > >>This includes a simple reset with and no .vspace. It needs fine tuning > >> but it handles most elements pretty well. > > What does "proper css reset" mean, please? > >> > >> > http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex > > > I support those who commended this design and agree with the comment that > making something happen when a visitor hovers over a link would be a Good > Thing. border-bottom 1px solid would be sufficient (following Wikipedia's > convention). > > > see the "vspace revisited" discussion in this list started 2011-07-22. > > > > Anyway, having more paragraphs _with_ vspace than without is not > > beautiful in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more elegant to use a class > > "lessvspace" for the small number of paragraphs where the vertical > > space is not wanted? > > This is a very interesting suggestion and makes good sense to me. It is > almost as easy to implement as moving class='vspace' onto every element > that can be preceded by the tag isn't preceded by a vspace. > > However, I would really like to understand what is meant by "proper css > reset" and how it would distinguish between: > * a list item with no vspace above > * a following item with no vspace above > > * another item with vspace above > > Followed by a paragraph with vspace above. > > Plus all the other spaced/unspaced combinations an author may use, so > pmwiki continues to honour the author's intentions. > > JR > -- > John Rankin > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- Paul Giacherio http://paulgiacherio.com ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Paul Giacherio (2011-09-22 12:07): > 1] Is centered, and has a flexible width to a point - the left-aligned, full > width current skin is difficult on big screens > 2] Utilizes simple media queries to ensure the design is functional all the > way down to mobile sizes > 3] Includes a css reset and solid standard typographic style > 4] Moves all [and i mean ALL] standard style declarations into the default > css file - the current, occasional, header style injection can be maddening > to a first-time customizer > 5] Is structurally table-less Good points - I agree. Comments on 3 and 4: 3. Is a CSS reset (unified CSS stylesheets across browsers) really required? Is this merely perfectionism, or are there some crazy differences between browser-default stylesheets? 4. PmWiki has a history of trying hard to keep compatibility with older sites, so replacing the standard style declarations might be difficult. But I would also like to see them in the skin instead of being injected into HTML. Only the styles for history could land in a separate diff.css. Or PmWiki could go with the versioning craze and become PmWiki-3, dropping some compatibility by cleaning up and adding some features. Would be an extraordinary day after a lot of work... -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> > I wonder whether Paul Giacherio anticipated this dissection of his(?) > design. > Ha, no I didn't. However, there's a lot of great feedback here that I think is really valuable. Just so there's no confusion, that design was never meant to be received as- "this is what I think pmwiki should look like". Rather, that was just an internal site which I was working on that I wanted to show as a not-too-bad example of default typographic styling. Almost everything about that site is still in development. Having said that, there are a lot of elements (some of which have already been pointed out) that I think could be considered for a new default skin. Form my perspective, I'd like to see a default pmwiki skin that: 1] Is centered, and has a flexible width to a point - the left-aligned, full width current skin is difficult on big screens 2] Utilizes simple media queries to ensure the design is functional all the way down to mobile sizes 3] Includes a css reset and solid standard typographic style 4] Moves all [and i mean ALL] standard style declarations into the default css file - the current, occasional, header style injection can be maddening to a first-time customizer 5] Is structurally table-less I too am unsure about things like styling the page actions as buttons. 'Edit' is an action, which I'd rather style as a button but the other actions I grouped just because they are uniquely wiki actions, and wanted to set apart for my users. There have been a few discussions about other CMSs [WordPress, etc.] and the role of an appealing aesthetic for PmWiki. Personally I find PmWiki extremely easy to use and customize. However, I don't think the current visual style helps communicate that ease-of-use to new audiences. The current default design feels outdated to me, and doesn't do a good job of reflecting the software's simplicity. While a direct comparison with something like WordPress may be apples/oranges, before building an intranet I considered force.com, wordpress, google sites and pbwiki as viable solutions. I think that people evaluating pmwiki are likely drawing on a much wider set of user expectations than just wiki/wiki comparisons. Anything that can be done through design to position PmWiki as modern, flexible and easy to use is a step in the right direction in my mind. -- Paul Giacherio http://paulgiacherio.com ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Forgeot Eric (2011-09-21 22:08): > > http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex > > it just looks simple and gorgeous at the same time. I think something like > that (or even this one) could be a good candidate for the default skin on > pmwiki.org I also like it's appearance. It is centered (when the width is above 1280px), as some people wanted. The layout is flexible. But, * usability suffers because of the colors (see below); * the sidebar text overflows into content when zooming or the width is too small; * CSS is too complex/verbose (but I haven't studied it seriously). > What I like on this one: > - the content is written with darker letters than the menu so when we see the > page, we don't feel overwhelmed by the secondary informations. It's **very** > important in my opinion, because as explained before, the pmwiki menu is > quite huge Yes, less distractions is a good thing, but the navigation links are too light for me (light gray on white background). Moreover, navigation links are important too, but try to focus and read them from top to bottom on this page. If I change the color from #999 to #777, it becomes good enough to me. > - the content font is easily readable and nice for the eyes The way fonts are specified is not good: * font-family:Georgia; * font-family:Arial; They need a serif and sans-serif fallbacks respectively. I haven't got Georgia and my browser uses a sans-serif fallback, so I am not sure what you are seeing, but I remember someone shouting "please, no Georgia!" in this discussion (wonder if it has any merit). > - the links color is still blue (but nicer than color:blue) so Jakob Nielsen > won't feel too shocked. I would like them to be darker (it's bright blue text on light background now), would make it easier to concentrate on the text. Perhaps something like #99. > I wonder whether Paul Giacherio anticipated this dissection of his(?) design. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> Paul Giacherio wrote: > >>The .vspace function can be eliminated if we include a proper css reset. >>This includes a simple reset with and no .vspace. It needs fine tuning >> but it handles most elements pretty well. What does "proper css reset" mean, please? >> >>http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex > I support those who commended this design and agree with the comment that making something happen when a visitor hovers over a link would be a Good Thing. border-bottom 1px solid would be sufficient (following Wikipedia's convention). > see the "vspace revisited" discussion in this list started 2011-07-22. > > Anyway, having more paragraphs _with_ vspace than without is not > beautiful in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more elegant to use a class > "lessvspace" for the small number of paragraphs where the vertical > space is not wanted? This is a very interesting suggestion and makes good sense to me. It is almost as easy to implement as moving class='vspace' onto every element that can be preceded by http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
This history big button, next to edit button, is (in my opinion) a good way to show possible users how a page is done, to enlighten the fact such a page is a result of x revisions and to appeal the click. I like that. (edit button should then become view button when in edit mode, if someone knows how to do that). (same, in current PmWiki, I suggest actions link should be showed accordingly to the current mode : no view when viewing, no edit when editing. Unless there is a reason I dont see to print them unconditionally.) Other actions (print, backlincks, pdf...) are less important and could be listed in page footer, as icons, in menu, or else. In any case, it would be possible to list them next to other big ones. Gilles. 2011/9/22 Martin Fick : > --- On Wed, 9/21/11, DaveG wrote: >> I also like the modernish Edit/History buttons. Very much >> in the feel of > > I have to disagree about this. I don't like buttons > that simply follow links, which is what those do. > Perhaps I could think of "Edit" as an action, but > "History"? > > -Martin > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- --- | A | de la langue française | B | http://www.languefrancaise.net/ | C | languefranca...@gmail.com --- ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
--- On Wed, 9/21/11, DaveG wrote: > I also like the modernish Edit/History buttons. Very much > in the feel of I have to disagree about this. I don't like buttons that simply follow links, which is what those do. Perhaps I could think of "Edit" as an action, but "History"? -Martin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/21/2011 5:08 PM, Forgeot Eric wrote: http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex it just looks simple and gorgeous at the same time. I think something like that (or even this one) could be a good candidate for the default skin on pmwiki.org Agreed -- also like this one. Would be easy to add a splash of color, without upsetting the simplicity. What I like on this one: - the content is written with darker letters than the menu so when we see the page, we don't feel overwhelmed by the secondary informations. It's **very** important in my opinion, because as explained before, the pmwiki menu is quite huge - the content font is easily readable and nice for the eyes - the links color is still blue (but nicer than color:blue) so Jakob Nielsen won't feel too shocked. The visited and hover links are not in a different tone, but this could be easily improved/activated. I also like the modernish Edit/History buttons. Very much in the feel of http://github.com/ ~ ~ Dave ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex it just looks simple and gorgeous at the same time. I think something like that (or even this one) could be a good candidate for the default skin on pmwiki.org What I like on this one: - the content is written with darker letters than the menu so when we see the page, we don't feel overwhelmed by the secondary informations. It's **very** important in my opinion, because as explained before, the pmwiki menu is quite huge - the content font is easily readable and nice for the eyes - the links color is still blue (but nicer than color:blue) so Jakob Nielsen won't feel too shocked. The visited and hover links are not in a different tone, but this could be easily improved/activated. This kind of theme has quite an identity, it doesn't look dull and therefore it could be a good starting point (I'm only talking about the general appearance, I haven't studied the html/css code). With a good looking theme like this one, potential user would rather think "cool, if the default theme looks like this one, my website will **at least** look that good if I can't make a better one". With the current one, potential users may rather thing "if I ever think to use pmwiki in the future, how could I be sure to find a good theme or be able to improve this one?" ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
It does need tweaking, but that sandbox page looks like a pretty good starting point to me. Regarding the 'List Heading' and the following list- I might take issue with the desired outcome. The desire to couple a heading to a list could (should?) be handled with a unique style when needed. If that's the logical structure I'd argue that a DL might be better markup too. Which, last time I checked, DL markup was implemented incorrectly in PmWiki. I don't know what the prior issues regarding a pure css approach are, but I have a hard time believing that they are insurmountable. On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Oliver Betz wrote: > Paul Giacherio wrote: > > >The .vspace function can be eliminated if we include a proper css reset. > >This includes a simple reset with and no .vspace. It needs fine tuning but > >it handles most elements pretty well. > > > > > http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex > > see the "vspace revisited" discussion in this list started 2011-07-22. > > I copied the testcase *) to your sandbox. At least the space between > list "heading" and first list item is large. PmWiki makes this as > small as between list items. > > I still wonder what the problems of a pure CSS solution are Patrick > mentioned in previous posts. Then we could expand the test case and > look for solutions. > > Anyway, having more paragraphs _with_ vspace than without is not > beautiful in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more elegant to use a class > "lessvspace" for the small number of paragraphs where the vertical > space is not wanted? > > Patrick > > *) http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Test/Vspace > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- Paul Giacherio http://paulgiacherio.com ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Oliver Betz wrote: [...] >Patrick of course, I didn't want to sign this mail with Patrick's name. It was a reformatting error, and the posting wasn't ready to send... Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Paul Giacherio wrote: >The .vspace function can be eliminated if we include a proper css reset. >This includes a simple reset with and no .vspace. It needs fine tuning but >it handles most elements pretty well. > >http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex see the "vspace revisited" discussion in this list started 2011-07-22. I copied the testcase *) to your sandbox. At least the space between list "heading" and first list item is large. PmWiki makes this as small as between list items. I still wonder what the problems of a pure CSS solution are Patrick mentioned in previous posts. Then we could expand the test case and look for solutions. Anyway, having more paragraphs _with_ vspace than without is not beautiful in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more elegant to use a class "lessvspace" for the small number of paragraphs where the vertical space is not wanted? Patrick *) http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Test/Vspace ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
The .vspace function can be eliminated if we include a proper css reset. This includes a simple reset with and no .vspace. It needs fine tuning but it handles most elements pretty well. http://paulgiacherio.kodingen.com/pmwiki/pmwiki-2.2.30/pmwiki.php?n=PmWiki.DocumentationIndex On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:45 AM, Ville Takanen wrote: > Echo John on the div.vspace. I do like the .vspace, but additional divs > seem a bit overkill. > > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM, John Rankin > wrote: > >> >> > On 9/20/11, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote: >> >> On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : >> [snip] >> >> > Good points. >> >> Agreed. There appears to be a good convergence of views on the >> requirements for a new default skin, although there will no doubt be >> devils in the detail. >> >> This is not quite on-topic, but I'd like to re-visit the discussion from >> July on class='vspace'. Is the tidiest way to >> control vertical space between lines? If not, is lifting the default skin >> also a good time to tweak the html? >> >> There is a markup rule that produces instead of > class='vspace'>. Perhaps this could be generalised to produce, >> for example, instead of > class='vspace'>, and so on. As far as I can see, all >> occurrences of can be replaced by >> class='vspace' on the following element. Is there a reason *not* to do >> this? >> >> -- >> John Rankin >> >> >> ___ >> pmwiki-users mailing list >> pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com >> http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users >> > > > > -- > -- > Ville Takanen > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > > -- Paul Giacherio http://paulgiacherio.com ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Echo John on the div.vspace. I do like the .vspace, but additional divs seem a bit overkill. On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM, John Rankin wrote: > > > On 9/20/11, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote: > >> On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : > [snip] > > > Good points. > > Agreed. There appears to be a good convergence of views on the > requirements for a new default skin, although there will no doubt be > devils in the detail. > > This is not quite on-topic, but I'd like to re-visit the discussion from > July on class='vspace'. Is the tidiest way to > control vertical space between lines? If not, is lifting the default skin > also a good time to tweak the html? > > There is a markup rule that produces instead of class='vspace'>. Perhaps this could be generalised to produce, > for example, instead of class='vspace'>, and so on. As far as I can see, all > occurrences of can be replaced by > class='vspace' on the following element. Is there a reason *not* to do > this? > > -- > John Rankin > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- -- Ville Takanen ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> On 9/20/11, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote: >> On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : [snip] > Good points. Agreed. There appears to be a good convergence of views on the requirements for a new default skin, although there will no doubt be devils in the detail. This is not quite on-topic, but I'd like to re-visit the discussion from July on class='vspace'. Is the tidiest way to control vertical space between lines? If not, is lifting the default skin also a good time to tweak the html? There is a markup rule that produces instead of . Perhaps this could be generalised to produce, for example, instead of , and so on. As far as I can see, all occurrences of can be replaced by class='vspace' on the following element. Is there a reason *not* to do this? -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/20/11, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote: > On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : >> Or perhaps just simply a link from to the sidebar page. > > Or to a larger page like a site map. That too. >> The idea of not having a sidebar displayed togheter with the current >> page, can look simple, attractive, functional and add the possibility >> to use the same skin for more devices, using css media queries as you >> said. > > I think wikis with many groups and pages, with teams of writers may really > need a sidebar navigation. Even, in some cases, a 3 column skin with 2 > sidebars may be needed, with a top "breadcrumbs" navigation and a bottom > "trail". :-) > > A simplistic skin will suit well smaller sites with a very limited number of > pages, maintained by a single author. > > The default skin with a sidebar is neither too much, nor not enough. It is > easy to understand (Group sidebar or Site sidebar), it has links to the > documentation and a link "Edit Sidebar". This principle is not too bad for a > default installation, and for the pmwiki.org website -- one can use PmWiki > for > tiny and for huge sites. > > Again, the skin could adapt for a small screen to a simpler layout. > >> The template would be very, very simple and easy to customize, all the >> complexity - that wouldn't be much - would be hidden in the css > > If the default (or pmwiki.org) skin is too minimalistic, a visitor who needs > a > larger community or intranet wiki, may not immediately notice that PmWiki > can > do large portals -- and visitors don't stay long on any page (10-30 sec): > > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/page-abandonment-time.html (latest Alertbox) > > If the default skin is too complex, a person who just needs a small personal > wiki may also "zap" to elsewhere. > > So, when I wrote that the homepage should be well balanced, it should show > enough of the potential of PmWiki for a visit of 20 seconds. > >> There are good examples out there, such as some of the sites Petko made, >> see: http://notamment.fr/ > > The PmWiki-driven sites listed there are really small sites with only few > dozens of pages and 1-2 editors. While they are examples of what PmWiki > does, > they don't even use 1/10 of all PmWiki *can* do. > > Petko Good points. CarlosAB ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : > Or perhaps just simply a link from to the sidebar page. Or to a larger page like a site map. > The idea of not having a sidebar displayed togheter with the current > page, can look simple, attractive, functional and add the possibility > to use the same skin for more devices, using css media queries as you > said. I think wikis with many groups and pages, with teams of writers may really need a sidebar navigation. Even, in some cases, a 3 column skin with 2 sidebars may be needed, with a top "breadcrumbs" navigation and a bottom "trail". :-) A simplistic skin will suit well smaller sites with a very limited number of pages, maintained by a single author. The default skin with a sidebar is neither too much, nor not enough. It is easy to understand (Group sidebar or Site sidebar), it has links to the documentation and a link "Edit Sidebar". This principle is not too bad for a default installation, and for the pmwiki.org website -- one can use PmWiki for tiny and for huge sites. Again, the skin could adapt for a small screen to a simpler layout. > The template would be very, very simple and easy to customize, all the > complexity - that wouldn't be much - would be hidden in the css If the default (or pmwiki.org) skin is too minimalistic, a visitor who needs a larger community or intranet wiki, may not immediately notice that PmWiki can do large portals -- and visitors don't stay long on any page (10-30 sec): http://www.useit.com/alertbox/page-abandonment-time.html (latest Alertbox) If the default skin is too complex, a person who just needs a small personal wiki may also "zap" to elsewhere. So, when I wrote that the homepage should be well balanced, it should show enough of the potential of PmWiki for a visit of 20 seconds. > There are good examples out there, such as some of the sites Petko made, > see: http://notamment.fr/ The PmWiki-driven sites listed there are really small sites with only few dozens of pages and 1-2 editors. While they are examples of what PmWiki does, they don't even use 1/10 of all PmWiki *can* do. Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
The sailing site is here: http://zenzero.marex-commodities.fr/ On Wednesday 21 September 2011 00:40:16, Carlos AB wrote : > There is one site, that I couldn't find right now, that Petko made and > related to sailing that could be used as a really good example for > that. > > The front page is very rich in details about the content of the site > with links to social sites, bliki/blog posts, photo galleries and > everything is organized inside the font page. Even the columns used > for some structure (two columns) were made in PmWiki markup, if I > remember correctly. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
>> For a mobile device I would probably prefer a different menu, that is a >> wiki >> page other than Site.SideBar, with less selected links, eg. a topbar in a >> single line which needs much less screen area than a full sidebar. If more >> >> links are required, they could be placed at the bottom of the page like on >> the >> other popular websites (Wordpress...). > > Are 'position:fixed;' elements working fine on mobile browsers? It could > be a topbar with > > > And clicking on could open a javascript "popup"... > > -- > -- Rogutės Sparnuotos Or perhaps just simply a link from to the sidebar page. The idea of not having a sidebar displayed togheter with the current page, can look simple, attractive, functional and add the possibility to use the same skin for more devices, using css media queries as you said. The template would be very, very simple and easy to customize, all the complexity - that wouldn't be much - would be hidden in the css and there would be no need for frameworks. There are good examples out there, such as some of the sites Petko made, see: http://notamment.fr/ There is one site, that I couldn't find right now, that Petko made and related to sailing that could be used as a really good example for that. The front page is very rich in details about the content of the site with links to social sites, bliki/blog posts, photo galleries and everything is organized inside the font page. Even the columns used for some structure (two columns) were made in PmWiki markup, if I remember correctly. Also, you can see people doing things like this : http://www.ditudo.wiki.br/ To be able to see wikipedia content on small devices. CarlosAB ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Petko Yotov (2011-09-20 16:07):
> On Tuesday 20 September 2011 13:09:26, rogu...@googlemail.com wrote :
> > I'm not browsing with mobile devices, but I am not against supporting
> > them. Are you thinking about a special skin for very small screens, or one
> > skin that is good enough for both use cases?
>
> I'm not sure the same page could look fantastic on screens wide 172px and
> 2048px at the same time. So it would probably be either different skins or
> different "skin modes" as some suggested.
No, definitely not fantastic. But the change from 1000px to 2000px is also
pretty hard to manage while keeping it beautiful. And mobile browsers seem
to have a pretty good overview and zooming ability.
> > I think that the best approach would be to aim for simplicity in the new
> > default skin (minimal distractions on the homepage) and use media queries,
>
> What is "media queries"?
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/
You have put a link to "Detecting device size & orientation in CSS" in
PITS/01265, which describes media queries from a practical standpoint.
I use them to change from 'position:absolute;' to 'position:fixed;' on one
PmWiki site when screen width is smaller than 970px:
@media all and (min-width:970px) {
#wikileft {
position:fixed;
}
}
> I see a future mobile skin (mode) primarily targeting readers and not writers
> of pmwikis in the wild, simply because editing a long text on a mobile phone
> is way too long and difficult and is done only in rare cases.
Good point.
But recently I had bad experience on a site with a special interface for
mobile users - it didn't have the feature that I came for and which was
present in the "normal" interface. So the possibility to edit shouldn't be
hidden in "mobile mode".
> I wouldn't worry too much about the pmwiki.org website on the tiny screens of
> mobile phones -- our visitors are admins coming to download and install
> PmWiki
> and recipes, read the documentation and customize their installations (SSH,
> FTP...). You don't do these things on a phone. That's why I want a balanced
> pmwiki.org home page, neither too complex and overwhelming, nor too simple
> and
> empty.
> > By the way, does http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/BasicEditing look ok on
> > small widths (but bigger than my 172x220)?
>
> On a 240x320 the markup examples don't look too good, but as I said this
> documentation page will be read by wiki writers who are more likely to be on
> a
> normal screen. On 360x640, especially landscape 640x360 it is quite good.
People do read documentation on mobile phones and especially tablets. But
perhaps this is not the case with PmWiki writers, dunno.
> > And would it really be a good idea to move the sidebar down for mobile
> > devices (as someone suggested)? It would mean a lot of vertical scrolling
> > to reach it on longer pages. And if the sidebar is on the side, one can
> > zoom out and back in to reach it (or scroll horizontally, if the sidebar
> > has position:fixed).
>
> The "fixed" position in CSS should be used carefully, because if the sidebar
> or other element is taller than the screen, a part of it will never be
> displayed. And desktop browsers don't have the same zoom feature as mobile
> ones. For example, this skin has a sidebar taller than the screen of my laptop
>
> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/FixFlowSkin?setmenu=fixed
>
> and only half of the sidebar is shown, up to the "Skins" link. Fortunately,
> this skin has a mode with a scrolling sidebar, without position:fixed.
Yes, the skin needs this:
#sidebarbox {
overflow:auto;
}
> For a mobile device I would probably prefer a different menu, that is a wiki
> page other than Site.SideBar, with less selected links, eg. a topbar in a
> single line which needs much less screen area than a full sidebar. If more
> links are required, they could be placed at the bottom of the page like on
> the
> other popular websites (Wordpress...).
Are 'position:fixed;' elements working fine on mobile browsers? It could
be a topbar with
And clicking on could open a javascript "popup"...
--
-- Rogutės Sparnuotos
___
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Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Tuesday 20 September 2011 13:09:26, rogu...@googlemail.com wrote : > I'm not browsing with mobile devices, but I am not against supporting > them. Are you thinking about a special skin for very small screens, or one > skin that is good enough for both use cases? I'm not sure the same page could look fantastic on screens wide 172px and 2048px at the same time. So it would probably be either different skins or different "skin modes" as some suggested. > I think that the best approach would be to aim for simplicity in the new > default skin (minimal distractions on the homepage) and use media queries, What is "media queries"? I see a future mobile skin (mode) primarily targeting readers and not writers of pmwikis in the wild, simply because editing a long text on a mobile phone is way too long and difficult and is done only in rare cases. I wouldn't worry too much about the pmwiki.org website on the tiny screens of mobile phones -- our visitors are admins coming to download and install PmWiki and recipes, read the documentation and customize their installations (SSH, FTP...). You don't do these things on a phone. That's why I want a balanced pmwiki.org home page, neither too complex and overwhelming, nor too simple and empty. > By the way, does http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/BasicEditing look ok on > small widths (but bigger than my 172x220)? On a 240x320 the markup examples don't look too good, but as I said this documentation page will be read by wiki writers who are more likely to be on a normal screen. On 360x640, especially landscape 640x360 it is quite good. > And would it really be a good idea to move the sidebar down for mobile > devices (as someone suggested)? It would mean a lot of vertical scrolling > to reach it on longer pages. And if the sidebar is on the side, one can > zoom out and back in to reach it (or scroll horizontally, if the sidebar > has position:fixed). The "fixed" position in CSS should be used carefully, because if the sidebar or other element is taller than the screen, a part of it will never be displayed. And desktop browsers don't have the same zoom feature as mobile ones. For example, this skin has a sidebar taller than the screen of my laptop http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/FixFlowSkin?setmenu=fixed and only half of the sidebar is shown, up to the "Skins" link. Fortunately, this skin has a mode with a scrolling sidebar, without position:fixed. For a mobile device I would probably prefer a different menu, that is a wiki page other than Site.SideBar, with less selected links, eg. a topbar in a single line which needs much less screen area than a full sidebar. If more links are required, they could be placed at the bottom of the page like on the other popular websites (Wordpress...). Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Hans (2011-09-19 09:22): > Monday, September 19, 2011, 12:57:26 AM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: > > > 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ > >(a bit like PmWiki?). > > > 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ > >(did I just visit wordpress.org?). > > > 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... > > Both don't work on mobile devices. > > #2 is just another fixed width layout, which does not adapt to > browser/screen widths. Just checked it out, symfony.com looks horrible on mobile indeed. > I like the cleaner look using more spaces between lines. > > I can't stand the trend of using grey text, and #2 shows grey text on > grey background (boxes), which is even worse. Can't stand it either. > Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices > as well as desktop screens? I'm not browsing with mobile devices, but I am not against supporting them. Are you thinking about a special skin for very small screens, or one skin that is good enough for both use cases? I think that the best approach would be to aim for simplicity in the new default skin (minimal distractions on the homepage) and use media queries, avoid fixed widths. I find that mobile browsers are good enough to deal with web pages that haven't got special skins for them. Even pmwiki.org and the skin I have posted look almost good on my 172x220 resolution phone with Opera Mobile (they are only a little too wide and this can be fixed). By the way, does http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/BasicEditing look ok on small widths (but bigger than my 172x220)? And would it really be a good idea to move the sidebar down for mobile devices (as someone suggested)? It would mean a lot of vertical scrolling to reach it on longer pages. And if the sidebar is on the side, one can zoom out and back in to reach it (or scroll horizontally, if the sidebar has position:fixed). -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin! (Hans)
Another approach would be to use CSS media width rules. These work quite well in current phones and tablets. http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/04/targeted-css/ On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Forgeot Eric wrote: > > Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices > > as well as desktop screens? > > I think the best is to fallback to another skin, with this convenient > cookbook: > > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile > > even for skin using non fixed width, it's generally not usable on mobile > devices, for example the sidebar menu itself is generally bigger than the > mobile screen. > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > -- -- Ville Takanen ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin! (Hans)
> Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices > as well as desktop screens? I think the best is to fallback to another skin, with this convenient cookbook: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile even for skin using non fixed width, it's generally not usable on mobile devices, for example the sidebar menu itself is generally bigger than the mobile screen. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Le 19/09/2011 10:22, Hans a écrit : Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices as well as desktop screens? sure! jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Monday, September 19, 2011, 12:57:26 AM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: > 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ >(a bit like PmWiki?). > 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ >(did I just visit wordpress.org?). > 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... Both don't work on mobile devices. #2 is just another fixed width layout, which does not adapt to browser/screen widths. I like the cleaner look using more spaces between lines. I can't stand the trend of using grey text, and #2 shows grey text on grey background (boxes), which is even worse. Anyone here who would like the PmWiki skin to support mobile devices as well as desktop screens? ~Hans ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/2011 7:57 PM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: ki...@kirpi.it (2011-09-13 00:48): I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to TYPO3. <..> Do others really like the presentation trend of textpattern.com, wordpress.org, contao.org? This trend: 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ (a bit like PmWiki?). Way too busy in terms of sections on the screen. Also too many and non-complimentary colors. 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ (did I just visit wordpress.org?). Much nicer, and good use of whitespace. Although I dislike the black bar on the top. The other thing I like about this homepage is the "WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHOOSE SYMFONY?" -- exactly the information a first-time visitor is likely to want to see. 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... With regards to [2] I don't view high usage as a negative. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/2011 7:17 PM, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Though I think that using the same skin for the home page and installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and colors. It's important to have a simple(ish) skin for newcomers to use in the distribution. I don't think it needs to be the same as the one used on pmwiki.org. What we could do is include two skins with the distribution. One is the simple version which is active by default from the standard config.php. The other we include could be a *slightly* more sophisticated skin which would be used on pmwiki.org. This provides a way to improve the pmwiki.org look and show some pmwiki capabilities, as well as providing a simple launch point from a first install. ~ ~ Dave ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
ki...@kirpi.it (2011-09-13 00:48): > I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like > Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to > TYPO3. <..> Do others really like the presentation trend of textpattern.com, wordpress.org, contao.org? This trend: 1. Homepage for Symfony 1: http://www.symfony-project.org/ (a bit like PmWiki?). 2. Homepage for symfony 2: http://symfony.com/ (did I just visit wordpress.org?). 1. is not perfect, but 2. is everywhere nowadays... -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Agreed. On Monday 19 September 2011 01:17:53, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > using the same skin for the home page and > installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to > newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for > distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and > colors. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Petko Yotov (2011-09-18 20:55): > On Sunday 18 September 2011 13:18:58, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > > The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too > > loaded for me. > > These are sources for ideas more for the pmwiki.org home page than for a new > default skin in the distribution. > > We want a simple, minimal skin for an empty PmWiki installation, that would > be > easier for new admins to understand and customize. > > For the pmwiki.org home page, we want a well balanced selection of features, > content, links and styles to show better the PmWiki potential and continuous > development. Thank you for clarifying. Though I think that using the same skin for the home page and installations is a good thing: less to maintain; stays familiar to newcomers after installation. If pmwiki.org adopts a skin too complex for distribution, I think that the two skins should at least share layout and colors. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Make that a width of 35em. My error. On 19/09/11 10:34 AM, John Rankin wrote: On 19/09/11 8:11 AM, Carlos AB wrote: You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. In particular, the body text would be more readable if the width were narrower. To achieve an average of 60-70 characters per line of text, which I understand is optimal (see for example http://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability -- an example of tidy, minimal design, although 17pt Arial?), a width of around 45em is more suitable. A too narrow sidebar could be problematic. The page above uses a sidebar to body ratio of 1:2. It also has serif headings with sans body. The comments are interesting too -- in particular the suggestion to increase the inter-line spacing over the default value. Bringhurst (The Elements of Typographic Style) recommends an average of 66 characters per line. JR On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): Hi Forgeot, List, I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there in http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css -- John Rankin Affinity Limited T 64 4 495 3737 F 64 4 473 7991 M 021 RANKIN john.ran...@affinity.co.nz www.affinity.co.nz ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 19/09/11 8:11 AM, Carlos AB wrote: You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. In particular, the body text would be more readable if the width were narrower. To achieve an average of 60-70 characters per line of text, which I understand is optimal (see for example http://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability -- an example of tidy, minimal design, although 17pt Arial?), a width of around 45em is more suitable. A too narrow sidebar could be problematic. The page above uses a sidebar to body ratio of 1:2. It also has serif headings with sans body. The comments are interesting too -- in particular the suggestion to increase the inter-line spacing over the default value. Bringhurst (The Elements of Typographic Style) recommends an average of 66 characters per line. JR On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): Hi Forgeot, List, I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there in http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css -- John Rankin Affinity Limited T 64 4 495 3737 F 64 4 473 7991 M 021 RANKIN john.ran...@affinity.co.nz www.affinity.co.nz ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/18/11, Carlos AB wrote: > On 9/17/11, V.Krishn wrote: >> There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet >> without >> using javascript. >> Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like >> 1. High contrast >> 2. Low contrast >> 3. 16 color >> 4. High color >> ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. >> >> >> > title="High Contrast Color Style" /> >> > title="Low Contrast Color Style" /> >> >> I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. >> I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. >> >> -- >> Regards. >> V.Krishn > > If we have to consider older browsers as a target, the ones without > support for it, than we will have to use another mechanism, such as > this: > > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/ > > CarlosAB > It's the same principal mechanism, but with some javascript to help older browsers see it CarlosAB. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/17/11, V.Krishn wrote: > There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet > without > using javascript. > Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like > 1. High contrast > 2. Low contrast > 3. 16 color > 4. High color > ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. > > > title="High Contrast Color Style" /> > title="Low Contrast Color Style" /> > > I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. > I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. > > -- > Regards. > V.Krishn If we have to consider older browsers as a target, the ones without support for it, than we will have to use another mechanism, such as this: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/ CarlosAB ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I left the mock-up there so people could add or modify the skin idea more easily, before it is finally "put on paper". Change the size and proportions, decide to use the search as an action on the action bar or put the form somewhere on the side bar and other changes people may find significant. You did put it all together nicely, but a little bit of care with the size and proportions would make it look better. Also, the dark frame around the content area, helps a bit to make It look less simpler. The css and tmpl are smaller and simpler than PmWiki's default and that is a good thing. Another thing to look at is if the skin looks good in different browsers and if layout won't break in different situations with those same browsers. Other than that, it looks ok to me. Thank you, CarlosAB On 9/18/11, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote: > Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): >> Hi Forgeot, List, >> >> I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea >> there in >> >> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB >> >> Feel free to comment and post new ideas. > > I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl > http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css > > I am not yet sure were to use it, but it will find a place :) > > Anyone else interested in this design, should I upload it to pmwiki.org? > > What about something similar as a new default? > > Some random points regarding this discussion, after making my skin and > looking through http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01265: > 1. The default skin should be updated. It doesn't have to be a complete >facelift, and the new skin shouldn't become too complex. But is there a >consensus which path to take (more features or less clutter)? > >My skin doesn't show any new features, but I find its .tmpl and .css >files simpler than pmwiki's default. > >The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too >loaded for me. > > 2. In my skin, it is easy to add configurable colors, include >Site.WikiFoot as a footer page, but it is hard to find a place for a >header and a searchbox. Though constraining, such a minimal design >forces us to abandon clutter. > > 3. It is hard to „Easily switch to right sidebar.“ without using tables >(various scrolling, text zooming, overflow problems arise). Are there >any new sites using tables nowadays? > > 4. I think that it is impossible to have a flexible layout and a centered >page, though full-zoom of modern browsers might be a solution (but one >mustn't forget that the point of zoom is to increase the text size). > > -- > -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Sunday 18 September 2011 13:18:58, Rogutės Sparnuotos wrote : > The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too > loaded for me. These are sources for ideas more for the pmwiki.org home page than for a new default skin in the distribution. We want a simple, minimal skin for an empty PmWiki installation, that would be easier for new admins to understand and customize. For the pmwiki.org home page, we want a well balanced selection of features, content, links and styles to show better the PmWiki potential and continuous development. Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
So easily forgotten, and all too seldom used! On 2011-09-18 1:20 am, V.Krishn wrote: On Sunday, September 18, 2011 03:19:43 AM Carlos AB wrote: I agree, even though I have never worked with people with such disabilities, It is good to know that they found no problems understanding how PmWiki differentiates one type of link from the other, and also that people writing skins for PmWiki have to think about a lot when trying to make a new move. There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet without using javascript. Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like 1. High contrast 2. Low contrast 3. 16 color 4. High color ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I think a new skin development should address the fact that more and more users access web pages on small displays, on mobile devices, on small phone screens, tablets and wide screen monitors. It would be nice if a skin could accommodate all of these hugely different screen sizes, and not burden the admin person to cater for different screen sizes by adding extra skins and filter mechanisms for these skins. The skin template should filter to different css. If the PmWiki default skin could do this, basically using perhaps three different style sheets to cater for text screen phones, for mobile devices like iphones, and for bigger screens like tablets and monitors, then this would give a useful blueprint for skin developers as well as being easy for first time installs. That's really my biggest wish for a modern skin. Otherwise I just got some niggles, like (:noaction:) suppressing the action nav links at the top, but not below the content, and fixed pixel sizes rather than proportional sizes in the css. Also: If the sidebar gets moved to the right, it would make it easier to drop it below the content for devices with small widths like phones, rather than having it appear before the page content. ~Hans ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Carlos AB (2011-09-13 22:04): > Hi Forgeot, List, > > I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there > in > > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB > > Feel free to comment and post new ideas. I found the minimal design of your mock-ups attractive and made a skin: http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/ http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.tmpl http://demo.neto.li/pmwiki-carlskin/pub/skins/carlskin/pmwiki.css I am not yet sure were to use it, but it will find a place :) Anyone else interested in this design, should I upload it to pmwiki.org? What about something similar as a new default? Some random points regarding this discussion, after making my skin and looking through http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01265: 1. The default skin should be updated. It doesn't have to be a complete facelift, and the new skin shouldn't become too complex. But is there a consensus which path to take (more features or less clutter)? My skin doesn't show any new features, but I find its .tmpl and .css files simpler than pmwiki's default. The wordpress.org and textpattern.com examples others posted are too loaded for me. 2. In my skin, it is easy to add configurable colors, include Site.WikiFoot as a footer page, but it is hard to find a place for a header and a searchbox. Though constraining, such a minimal design forces us to abandon clutter. 3. It is hard to „Easily switch to right sidebar.“ without using tables (various scrolling, text zooming, overflow problems arise). Are there any new sites using tables nowadays? 4. I think that it is impossible to have a flexible layout and a centered page, though full-zoom of modern browsers might be a solution (but one mustn't forget that the point of zoom is to increase the text size). -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:20 PM, V.Krishn wrote: > On Sunday, September 18, 2011 03:19:43 AM Carlos AB wrote: >> I agree, even though I have never worked with people with such >> disabilities, It is good to know that they found no problems understanding >> how PmWiki differentiates one type of link from the other, and also that >> people writing skins for PmWiki have to think about a lot when trying to >> make a new move. >> > > There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet without > using javascript. > Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like > 1. High contrast > 2. Low contrast > 3. 16 color > 4. High color > ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. > > > title="High Contrast Color Style" /> > title="Low Contrast Color Style" /> > > I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. > I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. Wow, I have never heard of this feature, Thanks! ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Saturday 17 September 2011 23:49:43, Carlos AB wrote : > if skin writers should use > the prefs page/mechanism for skin preferences and even to choose a skin. > > That could be used for a lot of things like defining a preference for > fonts (size, family, weight), styling option for links, etc ... ... > Some skins use a different page for skin options. Should we use a > prefs page, an exclusive page for skin options or both? What would be > best? Should the skin preferences be accessible to site admins and editors or to readers too? I don't have an answer now, but I added this and other ideas from the discussion in the PITS so we don't forget about them: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01265 I've been thinking about an admin interface for some time now. It could be used to configure the skin preferences among other things. Most wiki owners I worked with are not very comfortable editing PHP files. PmWiki could be made easier to configure and administrate via some in-wiki interface like the ?action=attr function, or like the about:config window in Firefox. For example, a skin or a cookbook script could be just dropped onto the server, then enabled and configured from the in-wiki admin interface. Such a mechanism will not allow the flexibility of the farm/config/Group/Page php files we have now, and everything cannot be configured this way, but many things *could* be configured this way. Less features could look simpler and easier, and could be enough for people who just need a tool for collaborative or faster maintenance of websites (rather than a framework for running complex web applications). Most of the wikis listed at PmWikiUsers or at SuccessStories are such wikis. Accidentally, making a software simpler and easier isn't simple or easy. :-) Some planning and discussing will be needed about the feature selection, about the new API for the recipes. Backwards compatibility should probably be preserved, etc., etc... But this was not the subject of this thread. :-) Petko ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Sunday, September 18, 2011 03:19:43 AM Carlos AB wrote: > I agree, even though I have never worked with people with such > disabilities, It is good to know that they found no problems understanding > how PmWiki differentiates one type of link from the other, and also that > people writing skins for PmWiki have to think about a lot when trying to > make a new move. > There is a much less used feature that allows switching of stylesheet without using javascript. Skin providing "alternate stylesheet" like 1. High contrast 2. Low contrast 3. 16 color 4. High color ..etc.. can help, including adaptiblity to low end devices/screens. I have tested this feature since firefox 0.9+ and konqueror 3.5+. I could not locate the functionality in Chromium. -- Regards. V.Krishn > Note to self. :-) > > I also wonder if Pm was thinking about how people using text-based browsers > would differentiate links to non-existent pages, when he created > $PageLinkCreateFmt, the way he did. > > If so, than the Creole group haven't thought about everything ... Yet. > > Even if there are no problems for visually impaired people to > differentiate PmWiki links, it doesn't say that a dashed border-bottom > is worst than a dotted one or that link css rules can't get any > better for people with disabilities or at least different. > > Another thing that I was thinking, and not related to your e-mail and I > believe more directed to Petko or Pm, is that if skin writers should use > the prefs page/mechanism for skin preferences and even to choose a skin. > > That could be used for a lot of things like defining a preference for > fonts (size, family, weight), styling option for links, etc ... It > would go on the lines of what Petko said, in the end of this message : > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user/58969 > > Some skins use a different page for skin options. Should we use a > prefs page, an exclusive page for skin options or both? What would be > best? > > CarlosAB > > On 9/15/11, tamouse mailing lists wrote: > > I'm currently working with someone who has two different kinds of > > colourblindness as well as some other vision problems. As far as it > > goes, she is able to read and interpret the current pmwiki front page > > very well. She has a really hard time with a lot of sites with modern > > designs. It seems as though we developers and designers decide on one > > set of presentation aspects and expect one size will fit all. I'm > > trying to develop a more flexible means of theming/skinning/what have > > you that will allow the user to take control if they need to in a more > > easily handled fashion. > > > > The current pmwiki default skin may not be whizzy, but it does meet > > more end users needs of functionality and usability, even if not their > > sense of aesthetics. > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I agree, even though I have never worked with people with such disabilities, It is good to know that they found no problems understanding how PmWiki differentiates one type of link from the other, and also that people writing skins for PmWiki have to think about a lot when trying to make a new move. Note to self. :-) I also wonder if Pm was thinking about how people using text-based browsers would differentiate links to non-existent pages, when he created $PageLinkCreateFmt, the way he did. If so, than the Creole group haven't thought about everything ... Yet. Even if there are no problems for visually impaired people to differentiate PmWiki links, it doesn't say that a dashed border-bottom is worst than a dotted one or that link css rules can't get any better for people with disabilities or at least different. Another thing that I was thinking, and not related to your e-mail and I believe more directed to Petko or Pm, is that if skin writers should use the prefs page/mechanism for skin preferences and even to choose a skin. That could be used for a lot of things like defining a preference for fonts (size, family, weight), styling option for links, etc ... It would go on the lines of what Petko said, in the end of this message : http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user/58969 Some skins use a different page for skin options. Should we use a prefs page, an exclusive page for skin options or both? What would be best? CarlosAB On 9/15/11, tamouse mailing lists wrote: > I'm currently working with someone who has two different kinds of > colourblindness as well as some other vision problems. As far as it > goes, she is able to read and interpret the current pmwiki front page > very well. She has a really hard time with a lot of sites with modern > designs. It seems as though we developers and designers decide on one > set of presentation aspects and expect one size will fit all. I'm > trying to develop a more flexible means of theming/skinning/what have > you that will allow the user to take control if they need to in a more > easily handled fashion. > > The current pmwiki default skin may not be whizzy, but it does meet > more end users needs of functionality and usability, even if not their > sense of aesthetics. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> I'm sorry, it's not dotted, it's a dashed underline/border-bottom . > > On 9/15/11, Carlos AB wrote: >> [...] >> >> Does the PmWiki community wants to follow creole rules by the dot, or >> perhaps, by the underline? :-) And of course PmWiki already uses a dotted (not dashed) border bottom for links to new pages, but not in blue. So you are correct, there would be potential for confusion if pmwiki used dotted border bottom for regular links. My view is that provided there is strong contrast among the text, link, and visited colours, a bottom rule is not required. However, those advocating a bottom rule also make a good case. So perhaps pmwiki might consider a bottom rule that is a solid but lighter colour -- a visible cue, but not a distraction. On mouseover, the lighter colour could/should switch to the same strong contrast colour as the link text. In the final analysis, I think what's important is that the default template and css convey a first impression that the community has thought about the design, kept it simple, and taken care to get the details right. For me, that would be a fair summary of what pmwiki offers its users. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Le 16/09/2011 00:27, tamouse mailing lists a écrit : set of presentation aspects and expect one size will fit all. I'm trying to develop a more flexible means of theming/skinning/what have you that will allow the user to take control if they need to in a more easily handled fashion. fine. May some sort of drop down list that shows part of the skin, so anypeople can look at the result (try sometime to set your page to an alien langage, like thai for french people, and try to understand where you are :-)) about colors, approximately 10% of the french population have some sort of color problem. This is very well known in some works. And, of course no one have the same than the other! jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I'm sorry, it's not dotted, it's a dashed underline/border-bottom . On 9/15/11, Carlos AB wrote: > Wiki creole says that we should use a dotted underline to flag a link > to a non existent page and I believe it is a dotted border-bottom. > > Should we respect that since PmWiki supports creole and I believe that > this particular rule of creole was done that way to also give support > for people that are visually impaired. > > Also, PmWiki allows us to change the fmt of how links to non existant > pages look like, trough $LinkPageCreateFmt . > > This is good for people who build skins as the actual > $LinkPageCreateFmt creates two links for one markup, I had to hide the > second link to create a different style of sidebar once and having a > skin to change the format of $LinkPageCreateFmt doesn't sound like a > good idea and plus it would create more problems. > > Does the PmWiki community wants to follow creole rules by the dot, or > perhaps, by the underline? :-) > > CarlosAB > > On 9/15/11, John Rankin wrote: >> >>> horizontally, so long lines don't cause an overflow; avoid underline for links (use border-bottom on hover instead, if at all); spruce up the >>> >>> I want links to be underlined _and_ coloured, I don not want to guess >>> what could be a link. >> >> Yes, unless there is a strong contrast between the text colour and the >> link colour, this is a problem with many sites, especially, as Petko >> notes, when the visited colour is not clearly different. >> >> What is your view of sites where the link border-bottom is dotted? It >> makes links more visible, but is less intrusive than a solid rule. The >> dotted rule can turn solid on mouseover, of course. >>> >>> BTW: What's the benefit of "border-bottom" (besides different color)? >> >> Underline passes through the letter descenders and makes the words >> slightly less readable -- we recognise words in part by the word shape >> and >> underline can obscure this to a (small) degree. The border-bottom option >> puts a rule slightly below the descenders. This is a practice borrowed >> from print publishing, whereas underlining is carried over from the >> manual >> typewriter. My understanding (and I am not certain of this) is that >> mechanical constraints in a typewriter meant the underline physically >> could not print below the descenders, unless you moved the carriage up >> slightly. >> >> JR >> -- >> John Rankin > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Wiki creole says that we should use a dotted underline to flag a link to a non existent page and I believe it is a dotted border-bottom. Should we respect that since PmWiki supports creole and I believe that this particular rule of creole was done that way to also give support for people that are visually impaired. Also, PmWiki allows us to change the fmt of how links to non existant pages look like, trough $LinkPageCreateFmt . This is good for people who build skins as the actual $LinkPageCreateFmt creates two links for one markup, I had to hide the second link to create a different style of sidebar once and having a skin to change the format of $LinkPageCreateFmt doesn't sound like a good idea and plus it would create more problems. Does the PmWiki community wants to follow creole rules by the dot, or perhaps, by the underline? :-) CarlosAB On 9/15/11, John Rankin wrote: > >> >>>horizontally, so long lines don't cause an overflow; avoid underline for >>>links (use border-bottom on hover instead, if at all); spruce up the >> >> I want links to be underlined _and_ coloured, I don not want to guess >> what could be a link. > > Yes, unless there is a strong contrast between the text colour and the > link colour, this is a problem with many sites, especially, as Petko > notes, when the visited colour is not clearly different. > > What is your view of sites where the link border-bottom is dotted? It > makes links more visible, but is less intrusive than a solid rule. The > dotted rule can turn solid on mouseover, of course. >> >> BTW: What's the benefit of "border-bottom" (besides different color)? > > Underline passes through the letter descenders and makes the words > slightly less readable -- we recognise words in part by the word shape and > underline can obscure this to a (small) degree. The border-bottom option > puts a rule slightly below the descenders. This is a practice borrowed > from print publishing, whereas underlining is carried over from the manual > typewriter. My understanding (and I am not certain of this) is that > mechanical constraints in a typewriter meant the underline physically > could not print below the descenders, unless you moved the carriage up > slightly. > > JR > -- > John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I'm currently working with someone who has two different kinds of colourblindness as well as some other vision problems. As far as it goes, she is able to read and interpret the current pmwiki front page very well. She has a really hard time with a lot of sites with modern designs. It seems as though we developers and designers decide on one set of presentation aspects and expect one size will fit all. I'm trying to develop a more flexible means of theming/skinning/what have you that will allow the user to take control if they need to in a more easily handled fashion. The current pmwiki default skin may not be whizzy, but it does meet more end users needs of functionality and usability, even if not their sense of aesthetics. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
"John Rankin" wrote: [...] >What is your view of sites where the link border-bottom is dotted? It o.k. for me >makes links more visible, but is less intrusive than a solid rule. The >dotted rule can turn solid on mouseover, of course. >> >> BTW: What's the benefit of "border-bottom" (besides different color)? > >Underline passes through the letter descenders and makes the words >slightly less readable -- we recognise words in part by the word shape and >underline can obscure this to a (small) degree. The border-bottom option >puts a rule slightly below the descenders. This is a practice borrowed I see, thanks for the explanation. Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I'd also want to point out that pmwiki still uses fixed dimensions in its skin. I'd recommend moving away from anything fixed (px, pt) to relative dimensions (rem, em, %). And yes, a max-width column, not fixed. The three Rs of web design: relative, relative, relative. On 2011-09-15 12:34 pm, John Rankin wrote: I agree about Verdana because it has the "wrong" size: http://sbpoley.home.xs4all.nl/webmatters/verdana.html Yes! As an older reader, I tend to assume that any web site using Verdana doesn't want me as a visitor. I know I can make the text bigger, but why should I? I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the content, because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text this is not necessarily true on screens. Web typography is not paper typography. OTOH, serif for web headings and sans for body text is OK and if done well gives a professional effect without sacrificing readability. (But not Georgia!) Although I find as screen resolutions improve, serif body text bothers me less than it used to -- but there are still a lot of low res screens around, so it is probably better to stay with sans body text until the next refresh in 2018! A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger screens. As I wrote, I dislike fixed width design. Yes and they tend to break if the reader makes the text smaller or bigger. I note that on geany,org the width scales along with the font size, as it should. JR ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> I agree about Verdana because it has the "wrong" size: > http://sbpoley.home.xs4all.nl/webmatters/verdana.html Yes! As an older reader, I tend to assume that any web site using Verdana doesn't want me as a visitor. I know I can make the text bigger, but why should I? > >> I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the >> content, because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text > > this is not necessarily true on screens. Web typography is not paper > typography. OTOH, serif for web headings and sans for body text is OK and if done well gives a professional effect without sacrificing readability. (But not Georgia!) Although I find as screen resolutions improve, serif body text bothers me less than it used to -- but there are still a lot of low res screens around, so it is probably better to stay with sans body text until the next refresh in 2018! > >>A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger >> screens. > > As I wrote, I dislike fixed width design. Yes and they tend to break if the reader makes the text smaller or bigger. I note that on geany,org the width scales along with the font size, as it should. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> >>horizontally, so long lines don't cause an overflow; avoid underline for >>links (use border-bottom on hover instead, if at all); spruce up the > > I want links to be underlined _and_ coloured, I don not want to guess > what could be a link. Yes, unless there is a strong contrast between the text colour and the link colour, this is a problem with many sites, especially, as Petko notes, when the visited colour is not clearly different. What is your view of sites where the link border-bottom is dotted? It makes links more visible, but is less intrusive than a solid rule. The dotted rule can turn solid on mouseover, of course. > > BTW: What's the benefit of "border-bottom" (besides different color)? Underline passes through the letter descenders and makes the words slightly less readable -- we recognise words in part by the word shape and underline can obscure this to a (small) degree. The border-bottom option puts a rule slightly below the descenders. This is a practice borrowed from print publishing, whereas underlining is carried over from the manual typewriter. My understanding (and I am not certain of this) is that mechanical constraints in a typewriter meant the underline physically could not print below the descenders, unless you moved the carriage up slightly. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Oliver Betz (2011-09-14 09:31):
> To Rogutės Sparnuotos: I _definitely_ wouldn't use web fonts for
> PmWiki!
I wrote "<..> and a comment could point to pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Fonts,
which could point to google.com/webfonts", which could be translated to
something like this in the default skin:
body {
/* For font recipies, see http://pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Fonts */
font-family: serif;
}
I didn't extensively test this, but the default for serif and sans-serif
is pretty good nowadays (on a modern browser and OS).
--
-- Rogutės Sparnuotos
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Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Forgeot Eric wrote: [...] > Again, I don't necessary thing everything should be redesigned, but a > few adjustement could help to look better. The geany website (powered > by PmWiki) is a good example of an attractive design, yet quite close > to the original : http://geany.org/ . There are still blue links, but what's your aversion to blue links? Did you read Jakob Nielsen? [...] > The reference to microsoft-only fonts could be avoided: arial, > verdana. Serif, sans-serif could be enough. I agree about Verdana because it has the "wrong" size: http://sbpoley.home.xs4all.nl/webmatters/verdana.html To Rogut?s Sparnuotos: I _definitely_ wouldn't use web fonts for PmWiki! > I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the > content, because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text this is not necessarily true on screens. Web typography is not paper typography. >A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger screens. As I wrote, I dislike fixed width design. Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Forgeot Eric (2011-09-13 22:15): <...> > Again, I don't necessary thing everything should be redesigned, but a few > adjustement could help to look better. The geany website (powered by PmWiki) > is a good example of an attractive design, yet quite close to the original : > http://geany.org/ . There are still blue links, but it's not color:blue; . > It's not perfect (followed links are not noticeable, it's still using > tables), but it doesn't give a bad first impression. The fixed width and centered box at geany.org looks kind of squeezed even with 1280x1024 resolution. The colors need more contrast: dark-gray on light-gray for text and soft-blue on light-gray for links isn't good for the eyes. Moreover, pmwiki.org skin adapts better to smaller widths, and it only needs 'max-width: 60em;' on #wikitext to adapt better to wide screens (and perhaps some tuning to padding). > Also I don't think the default design is **that** easy to configurate, > especially because of the tables which are probably necessary to remove (I > don't find they render good in text based browsers, in links it's ok, but not > in lynx). I didn't find it that easy to configure either. But I have a bad habit of starting from scratch... > Also the menu is called wikileft, which needs to be renamed if the user > wishes to put it on the right. Yes, a skin update would do good to rename it to wikinav, wikiside or something. > The reference to microsoft-only fonts could be avoided: arial, verdana. > Serif, sans-serif could be enough. Yes, and a comment could point to pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Fonts, which could point to google.com/webfonts :) > I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the content, > because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text (but this could be > discussed) It really depends on the font and the text size, not on font type. > A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger screens. > For smaller ones, the current theme is not adapted, in particular because of > the left menu: on my phone, I have to scroll to be able to read the text. For > helping people reading from a mobile phone or small screen, it's better to > use this kind of recipe: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile > together with this kind of skin (I've made a derivative for my websites): > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/IPMWikiSkin If #wikileft were floated, you would still have to scroll, but vertically instead of horizontally. Not sure which is easier with mobile browsers. I think that the default skin shouldn't resort to user agent sniffing (ala DetectMobile), but it could try to adapt better with CSS. -- -- Rogutės Sparnuotos ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Hi Forgeot, List, I have created a group Called "NewSkinIdeas" and posted an initial idea there in http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/NewSkinIdeas/CarlosAB Feel free to comment and post new ideas. CarlosAB On 9/13/11, Forgeot Eric wrote: > someone posted (off list): > >>Hmm, perhaps you could show what you'd do differently? > > I'm working on something, but I'm not a special talented designer, and I > don't know much about CSS. (I often end up on the same designs) > > > I'd be happy though to participate to a "contest", a brainstorming or a new > group on PmWiki, as someone suggested. > > > Again, I don't necessary thing everything should be redesigned, but a few > adjustement could help to look better. The geany website (powered by PmWiki) > is a good example of an attractive design, yet quite close to the original : > http://geany.org/ . There are still blue links, but it's not color:blue; . > It's not perfect (followed links are not noticeable, it's still using > tables), but it doesn't give a bad first impression. > > Also I don't think the default design is **that** easy to configurate, > especially because of the tables which are probably necessary to remove (I > don't find they render good in text based browsers, in links it's ok, but > not in lynx). > > Also the menu is called wikileft, which needs to be renamed if the user > wishes to put it on the right. > > The reference to microsoft-only fonts could be avoided: arial, verdana. > Serif, sans-serif could be enough. > > I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the content, > because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text (but this could > be discussed) > > A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger screens. > For smaller ones, the current theme is not adapted, in particular because of > the left menu: on my phone, I have to scroll to be able to read the text. > For helping people reading from a mobile phone or small screen, it's better > to use this kind of recipe: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile > together with this kind of skin (I've made a derivative for my websites): > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/IPMWikiSkin > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Not dumb at all Paul. I was in doubt too on how to name it, but I went with the name "NewSkinIdeas" for the new group, I believe it is not so bad and I posted an idea there and also reveled my inspiration for it. :-) Take look and write whatever you wanna write on that page/group I have created. I hope you don't mind I have sent your e-mail in reply to the list. CarlosAB On 9/13/11, Paul Giacherio wrote: > Sounds like a dumb question, but where is the most logical place for a new > group discussion page? > > > > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Carlos AB wrote: > >> I believe It is time for a change too. >> >> Why not create a new group on PmWiki and publish there any ideas we >> may have, write links, upload photos, create a example designs with >> wiki markup and vote for the best ideas. >> >> Then we can get enough references to think with and come up with the best >> idea. >> >> A believe a new logo is also a good idea. >> >> CarlosAB >> >> On 9/12/11, John Rankin wrote: >> > On 13/09/11 8:19 AM, Forgeot Eric wrote: >> >> The drupal website is using blue link, but with a different color than >> the >> >> blue which was common during the geocities era: the design is classy >> >> and >> >> elegant, yet it's simple: >> >> >> >> >> http://drupal.org/documentation/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook >> > Interesting that the site uses a right side bar, which is common on >> > "author-centric" wordpress themes. >> >> >> >> The same goes for this localized version: >> >> http://drupalfr.org/documentation >> >> >> >> There are some trends in webdesign. It's not a shame to follow them, >> >> especially for a publishing tool. >> > Yes and especially for a publishing tool that has as its first design >> > principle, "Favour writers over readers". >> >> The current design is at least 6 year old: >> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20050913023010/http://pmwiki.org/ >> > Good designs last a long time, but a face-lift can make a good design >> > better. It would not take much: >> > >> > - bring the css up to date (links, headings, body width, etc) >> > >> > - consider switching to a right side-bar (or make this a >> > local/config.php option to show how easy it is to customise pmwiki >> > templates) >> > >> > JR >> > >> > -- >> > John Rankin >> > Affinity Limited >> > >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > pmwiki-users mailing list >> > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com >> > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users >> > >> >> ___ >> pmwiki-users mailing list >> pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com >> http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users >> > > > > -- > Paul Giacherio > http://paulgiacherio.com > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Completely agree, John! Luigi On 13/09/2011, John Rankin wrote: > >> I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like >> Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to >> TYPO3. >> Pmwiki is a wiki, and a file-based one. >> Which puts its roots into a *very* different ground. >> No matter how powerful or useful pmwiki may be, first-time visitors >> and possible adopters should be aware of this. >> Definitely. > > OTOH pmwiki ought not discourage first-time visitors who see a dated look > and may assume, incorrectly, that the software is dated. First impressions > count. You are right to question the wisdom of trying to compete with > . This is neither necessary > nor desirable in my view. But it is entirely practical to lift the quality > of pmwiki.org's first impression to that of (for example) the default > Drupal home page or the default WordPress theme, with not much more than > an improved style sheet. > > Out of the box, pmwiki needs to meet a minimum acceptable presentation > standard and the bar is higher than it was 6 years ago. As you say: >> >> >> >> That said, and on the other hand, for many needs pmwiki *does* compare >> (and could compete) with some of the tools I mentioned above. >> For this reason, a fresh look would be really fine (and bring new >> people to the community). > > JR > -- > John Rankin > > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
someone posted (off list): >Hmm, perhaps you could show what you'd do differently? I'm working on something, but I'm not a special talented designer, and I don't know much about CSS. (I often end up on the same designs) I'd be happy though to participate to a "contest", a brainstorming or a new group on PmWiki, as someone suggested. Again, I don't necessary thing everything should be redesigned, but a few adjustement could help to look better. The geany website (powered by PmWiki) is a good example of an attractive design, yet quite close to the original : http://geany.org/ . There are still blue links, but it's not color:blue; . It's not perfect (followed links are not noticeable, it's still using tables), but it doesn't give a bad first impression. Also I don't think the default design is **that** easy to configurate, especially because of the tables which are probably necessary to remove (I don't find they render good in text based browsers, in links it's ok, but not in lynx). Also the menu is called wikileft, which needs to be renamed if the user wishes to put it on the right. The reference to microsoft-only fonts could be avoided: arial, verdana. Serif, sans-serif could be enough. I'd suggest to use a sans-serif for the menu, and a serif for the content, because serif is easier to read when there is lots of text (but this could be discussed) A fixed width, centered text area could be more readable for bigger screens. For smaller ones, the current theme is not adapted, in particular because of the left menu: on my phone, I have to scroll to be able to read the text. For helping people reading from a mobile phone or small screen, it's better to use this kind of recipe: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/DetectMobile together with this kind of skin (I've made a derivative for my websites): http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/IPMWikiSkin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Chris Cox wrote: [...] >As an example... the logo... it should be an included page. In fact it could >be >a multi-fall back included page... so that it could change based on context >even. And the same could be done for page banners and the like. All of this >is Can you suggest a simple method of selecting a logo or other skin defined image depending on page content? Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
"ki...@kirpi.it" wrote: >I'm far from a tech guy, but having the standard skin with a fixed >width (which seems to be a great request by many) should be not much >more than enclosing it all into a fixed width is evil IMNSHO. Consider small devices! Readers don't want _fixed_ width, but those browsing with maximized windows need an upper _limit_ for width. It's not too easy to make a robust variable (but limited) width skin not breaking with unusual browser settings! Consider people using "text zoom". Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
"John Rankin" wrote: [...] >Before changing the default skin, it helps to know what the skin design >goals are. Otherwise, it's hard to choose between reasonable design very true. >alternatives. Drawing on this and earlier posts, as a starter for 10: > >- as the site is text-intensive, adopt good web typography practice (see >for example http://webtypography.net/) I wonder why they didn't limit the width of the text column. [...] >horizontally, so long lines don't cause an overflow; avoid underline for >links (use border-bottom on hover instead, if at all); spruce up the I want links to be underlined _and_ coloured, I don not want to guess what could be a link. BTW: What's the benefit of "border-bottom" (besides different color)? >headings; titles ought to default to spaced wikiwords, rather than >unspaced ones; more white space around the text. This depends on content. Oliver ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Monday 12 September 2011 22:19:04, Forgeot Eric wrote : > The drupal website is using blue link, but with a different color than the > blue which was common during the geocities era: the design is classy and > elegant, yet it's simple For me the Geocities era was more about blinking and scrolling text, animated GIFs, tiled background images and lots of "under construction" and "optimized for MSIE" signs. :-) I'll only comment on colored underlined links. I mostly agree that we could improve the homepage and the documentation. Contrary to what has been said, the default PmWiki skin does *not* force the color or the decoration of links, visitors can configure their browsers to show the links the way they prefer seeing links. There are many usability studies about how people behave on a website or intranet=wiki. By "people" I mean normal readers and editors who have some ordinary task (find a specific information or change some text), neither site admins, nor style designers, nor top users very experienced with the software or the website structure. It might be interesting for a site owner, for an admin or for a skin designer to keep themselves informed about the findings of these studies, for example: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/ Links need to be easily differentiated from other text, this is a usability need and also common sense if you know how people read. It is acceptable to have undecorated links in menus, sidebars and lists of links, but in a page body it should be clear what is a link: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html (This was observed in 2004, and our eyes and brains haven't evolved too much since then.) The "underlined" part is not a requirement but it is recommended as it is helpful for color-blind users, users with lower vision, or just older people like most of us become every day. People do not read web pages like they read printed text. People "scan" a web page looking for keywords, and those keywords are the first 2-3 words of a paragraph, bold or italic words, and links. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9710a.html While this was written in 1997, today with thousands if not millions *times* more websites, with better search engines, with information overload, lack of time and more experience or habit of the internet, users read even less today than in 1997. These conclusions are still current, even more accented, as you can see in publications about more recent studies, eg. this from 2008: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/percent-text-read.html > http://drupal.org/documentation/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook > > The same goes for this localized version: http://drupalfr.org/documentation Both these documentation sites have a defect: visited and unvisited links look the same way. This is a major usability problem, especially for large sites (lots of pages, lot of information) and the Top 3 worse design mistake of all times. When people search for something, if they don't know which pages they have already visited, they turn in circles, visiting the same pages again and again, and getting frustrated. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040503.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html > There are some trends in webdesign. It's not a shame to follow them, > especially for a publishing tool. The current design is at least 6 year > old: http://web.archive.org/web/20050913023010/http://pmwiki.org/ It would be a shame if following a fashion kills function and usability both for editors and for readers. But I'd think it was caused by ignorance (lack of information or lack of interest) rather than, say, stupidity. It is fixable. Petko P.S. I've been involved with a quite large wiki community (50-200 experienced, intelligent editors active weekly, 100K+ pages, thousands of readers). Since 2003 the links were like on pmwiki, browser-default which in most browsers is underlined and blue. Every once in a while, a newcomer editor or even a visitor (this is a fairly democratic community) comes to tell us that he doesn't like underlined links and that we are retarded to use them. The community rejected by a vote one proposition to force non-underlined links, and we also held a poll open to editors and to readers and the results were not conclusive: most active editors stated that they preferred underlined links, and about half of the unregistered visitors who voted too. I should add that last year the site owner unilaterally and without consulting the community (or the web usability guidelines) changed the default skin and links now are no longer underlined. But as editors can set in their personal preferences underlined links, and even switch back to the old skin, nobody bothered to organize a protest or another vote. :-) ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like > Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to > TYPO3. > Pmwiki is a wiki, and a file-based one. > Which puts its roots into a *very* different ground. > No matter how powerful or useful pmwiki may be, first-time visitors > and possible adopters should be aware of this. > Definitely. OTOH pmwiki ought not discourage first-time visitors who see a dated look and may assume, incorrectly, that the software is dated. First impressions count. You are right to question the wisdom of trying to compete with . This is neither necessary nor desirable in my view. But it is entirely practical to lift the quality of pmwiki.org's first impression to that of (for example) the default Drupal home page or the default WordPress theme, with not much more than an improved style sheet. Out of the box, pmwiki needs to meet a minimum acceptable presentation standard and the bar is higher than it was 6 years ago. As you say: > > > > That said, and on the other hand, for many needs pmwiki *does* compare > (and could compete) with some of the tools I mentioned above. > For this reason, a fresh look would be really fine (and bring new > people to the community). JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 9/12/2011 7:21 AM, Laatz, Erek wrote: As PM wrote, the actual default skin is a good starting point for personal customizations. But what about an image gallery with some screenshots of the several skins offered in the skin section of the pmwiki-site. The images could be linked to the skin section, where all relevant informations are documentated. Skins gallery: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/SkinsGallery ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I'm not sure Pmwiki would/should/could enter the race with things like Wordpress (I like Textpattern a lot more) or any other CMS up to TYPO3. Pmwiki is a wiki, and a file-based one. Which puts its roots into a *very* different ground. No matter how powerful or useful pmwiki may be, first-time visitors and possible adopters should be aware of this. Definitely. Letting them believe they can straight compare pmwiki to this or that (there are tons) CMS is not good and doesn't help anybody. So, also visually, while it might be fine to refresh the page look and make a sort of lift to it, I would not strive to "look similar to the others" at all costs. That said, and on the other hand, for many needs pmwiki *does* compare (and could compete) with some of the tools I mentioned above. For this reason, a fresh look would be really fine (and bring new people to the community). And again: I really like Textpattern ;-) Luigi P.S. Also, I do not dislike the look (font, sizes, pics) of Contao ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I believe It is time for a change too. Why not create a new group on PmWiki and publish there any ideas we may have, write links, upload photos, create a example designs with wiki markup and vote for the best ideas. Then we can get enough references to think with and come up with the best idea. A believe a new logo is also a good idea. CarlosAB On 9/12/11, John Rankin wrote: > On 13/09/11 8:19 AM, Forgeot Eric wrote: >> The drupal website is using blue link, but with a different color than the >> blue which was common during the geocities era: the design is classy and >> elegant, yet it's simple: >> >> http://drupal.org/documentation/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook > Interesting that the site uses a right side bar, which is common on > "author-centric" wordpress themes. >> >> The same goes for this localized version: >> http://drupalfr.org/documentation >> >> There are some trends in webdesign. It's not a shame to follow them, >> especially for a publishing tool. > Yes and especially for a publishing tool that has as its first design > principle, "Favour writers over readers". >> The current design is at least 6 year old: >> http://web.archive.org/web/20050913023010/http://pmwiki.org/ > Good designs last a long time, but a face-lift can make a good design > better. It would not take much: > > - bring the css up to date (links, headings, body width, etc) > > - consider switching to a right side-bar (or make this a > local/config.php option to show how easy it is to customise pmwiki > templates) > > JR > > -- > John Rankin > Affinity Limited > > > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I'm far from a tech guy, but having the standard skin with a fixed width (which seems to be a great request by many) should be not much more than enclosing it all into a (sort of) or a similar thing with tables. (Actually, it needs a slightly better effort, but my example still holds true) I mean: as long as it is clearly noted in the html/css, I think it should not be a revolution, and would be fine to try it. A good enhancement, probably. As far as tables are concerned, I'm sorry to confirm: they are not dead. There is still need of them in day-to-day life. Too many reasons for this. A pure css skin is doable of course (there is already a pure css standard pmwiki skin, unless I'm wrong), yet it is neither necessarily better nor (mind) easier to write and maintain. I wouldn't be too religious about it. Having logo, search, and other parts of the structure, be included as separate pages, would probably also be a sensible choice today. Would it be a problem? Would it increase much the server load for every page load? SideBar is a special beast. It is nice to have it ready on the page. But I remember (am I wrong?) that there were issues (it doesn't run javascript, or it loads very very early not allowing some handling of page data, or something the like). That could be a key problem, in order to make the standard skin more flexible and usable by writers. All in all I like the standard skin as it is now, and would just make those changes that make it *better* for the writers. Leaving the "impact factor" to other/alternative skins, a specially designed splash screen, or some tasty choices of fonts/colors/sizes/pictures. Luigi ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 13/09/11 8:19 AM, Forgeot Eric wrote: The drupal website is using blue link, but with a different color than the blue which was common during the geocities era: the design is classy and elegant, yet it's simple: http://drupal.org/documentation/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook Interesting that the site uses a right side bar, which is common on "author-centric" wordpress themes. The same goes for this localized version: http://drupalfr.org/documentation There are some trends in webdesign. It's not a shame to follow them, especially for a publishing tool. Yes and especially for a publishing tool that has as its first design principle, "Favour writers over readers". The current design is at least 6 year old: http://web.archive.org/web/20050913023010/http://pmwiki.org/ Good designs last a long time, but a face-lift can make a good design better. It would not take much: - bring the css up to date (links, headings, body width, etc) - consider switching to a right side-bar (or make this a local/config.php option to show how easy it is to customise pmwiki templates) JR -- John Rankin Affinity Limited ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
The drupal website is using blue link, but with a different color than the blue which was common during the geocities era: the design is classy and elegant, yet it's simple: http://drupal.org/documentation/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook The same goes for this localized version: http://drupalfr.org/documentation There are some trends in webdesign. It's not a shame to follow them, especially for a publishing tool. The current design is at least 6 year old: http://web.archive.org/web/20050913023010/http://pmwiki.org/ ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Cant speak for the pmwiki site...but tables do allow for some structure inside of text based browsers... If that's interesting anymore. - Reply message - From: "Kenneth Forsbäck" To: Subject: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin! Date: Mon, Sep 12, 2011 3:28 am I like blue, underlined links, it makes all links clear and easy to spot. That's the whole point of an effective design: simplicity, clarity, usability. The only gripe I have with the pmwiki appearance is the layout. Of course, there is nothing that says you couldn't still include the old skin in the package. However, I would like to see something narrower, wide pages like in pmwiki and even wikipedia are straining to read, our eyes prefer a narrower column of text. You could simply link several stylesheets and allow the user to select between a wide and narrow layout. Also, it should switch to a DIV/CSS based layout and drop the table. ~ Kenneth On 2011-09-11 10:35 pm, Forgeot Eric wrote: > Hello, > > why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? > > - for the default installation > - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? > > The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it looks > like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the impression PmWiki is > backward technology, and not powerful at all. > > Visit http://wordpress.org/ and http://www.pmwiki.org > Which one is giving more confidence and self confidence? > > I think a skin like this one could be great: > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin > > Or you could drive a contest for a default skin: it would give not only a > better default skin, but also several new ones for the skin collection! > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users > ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Dear all, another proposal: As PM wrote, the actual default skin is a good starting point for personal customizations. But what about an image gallery with some screenshots of the several skins offered in the skin section of the pmwiki-site. The images could be linked to the skin section, where all relevant informations are documentated. The image gallery could be linked in the upper area of the PmWiki default site so that everybody has the possibility to see how powerful PmWiki is (and of course - how easy customizations could be performed)... Best regards and all of you a nice day, Erek At 11.09.2011 21:35, Forgeot Eric wrote: > Hello, > > why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? > > - for the default installation > - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? > > The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it looks > like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the impression PmWiki is > backward technology, and not powerful at all. > > Visit http://wordpress.org/ and http://www.pmwiki.org > Which one is giving more confidence and self confidence? > > I think a skin like this one could be great: > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin > > Or you could drive a contest for a default skin: it would give not only a > better default skin, but also several new ones for the skin collection! > > ___ > pmwiki-users mailing list > pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com > http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] It's time to change pmwiki default skin!
One of the reasons I adopted pmwiki was its easy of use. Its default skin is a very good starting point, which: - allows to understand how the whole thing works (not bad as you are starting over) - is very useable (despite the narrow column fashion of today) and blue/underlined links are still a good standard choice (old people are still there, so are visually impaired people, and a lot of other people want to just easily *use* the internet, not just keep on guessing where links could be on a page) - is easily customizable. This does not mean there is no reason to enhance/renew it in some details, but I still would consider the default skin a real default/basic one. Without too many features, which find instead their own right place in the alternative skins, most of which are sound and interesting, like Hans' Triad (which i really like) or DaveG skins (just naming some). Such alternative skins could perhaps be more preeminently be shown off. So, if we need to make impression to newcomers, maybe a splash screen at the root page plus a better choice of fonts, colors and images could probably do. I wouldn't spoil/complicate the standard/default skin/approach. I believe that simple is better, as a starting point. Luigi ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 08:35:59PM +0100, Forgeot Eric wrote: >> why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? >> >> - for the default installation >> - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? >> >> The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it >> looks like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the >> impression PmWiki is backward technology, and not powerful at all. > > Just a reminder that part of the reason behind the simplicity of > PmWiki's default skin is to make it easier for people (who may not > have a lot of HTML/CSS knowledge) to see how/where to customize it. > > This isn't to say that I'm voting in favor of the current skin, > just that "how it looks" isn't the _only_ criterion. > > I'd be fine with a high-quality and slightly complex skin if > we also have a good "how to customize your own skin" tutorial > to go along with it. > Before changing the default skin, it helps to know what the skin design goals are. Otherwise, it's hard to choose between reasonable design alternatives. Drawing on this and earlier posts, as a starter for 10: - as the site is text-intensive, adopt good web typography practice (see for example http://webtypography.net/) - make the template and css as simple as possible, but no simpler (it's not a "show off what's possible" exercise; rather, the intent is to show that it's easy to look good) - demonstrate the power of pmwiki templates, rather than the power of css or javascript; the template capability is the unique strength to highlight It would not take much for the site to make a significantly better first impression. For example: make the wikibody about 45em wide and centre the sidebar and body on the screen; allow preformatted text to scroll horizontally, so long lines don't cause an overflow; avoid underline for links (use border-bottom on hover instead, if at all); spruce up the headings; titles ought to default to spaced wikiwords, rather than unspaced ones; more white space around the text. I'm sure there are other simple things that would modernise the look without adding undue complexity. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
I like blue, underlined links, it makes all links clear and easy to spot. That's the whole point of an effective design: simplicity, clarity, usability. The only gripe I have with the pmwiki appearance is the layout. Of course, there is nothing that says you couldn't still include the old skin in the package. However, I would like to see something narrower, wide pages like in pmwiki and even wikipedia are straining to read, our eyes prefer a narrower column of text. You could simply link several stylesheets and allow the user to select between a wide and narrow layout. Also, it should switch to a DIV/CSS based layout and drop the table. ~ Kenneth On 2011-09-11 10:35 pm, Forgeot Eric wrote: Hello, why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? - for the default installation - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it looks like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the impression PmWiki is backward technology, and not powerful at all. Visit http://wordpress.org/ and http://www.pmwiki.org Which one is giving more confidence and self confidence? I think a skin like this one could be great: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin Or you could drive a contest for a default skin: it would give not only a better default skin, but also several new ones for the skin collection! ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 08:35:59PM +0100, Forgeot Eric wrote: > Hello, > > why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? > > - for the default installation > - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? > > The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it > looks like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the > impression PmWiki is backward technology, and not powerful at all. Just a reminder that part of the reason behind the simplicity of PmWiki's default skin is to make it easier for people (who may not have a lot of HTML/CSS knowledge) to see how/where to customize it. This isn't to say that I'm voting in favor of the current skin, just that "how it looks" isn't the _only_ criterion. I'd be fine with a high-quality and slightly complex skin if we also have a good "how to customize your own skin" tutorial to go along with it. Pm ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
On 09/11/2011 02:35 PM, Forgeot Eric wrote: Hello, why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? - for the default installation - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it looks like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the impression PmWiki is backward technology, and not powerful at all. Visit http://wordpress.org/ and http://www.pmwiki.org Which one is giving more confidence and self confidence? I think a skin like this one could be great: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin Or you could drive a contest for a default skin: it would give not only a better default skin, but also several new ones for the skin collection! I agree that it might be time for another reorganization of how information is presented with the caveat that "good" reorganization would break linkages... so you can only go so far if that's important. With regards to "the skin"... I like the simplicity of the skin... IMHO, what we need is BETTER documentation about skins. I've created non-public skins that are absolutely amazing for PmWiki... skins which actually exploit PmWiki itself... something the current skin doesn't do too much of. Of course, there are also features of PmWiki that did not exist at the time of "the skin"... so there is even more than could be done. Perhaps what is needed is some "fun"... maybe a contest for skinning the site? Just my opinion, but there still isn't a good skinning doc at PmWiki... and... (and I'll get dinged for this)... the contributed skins don't really do PmWiki justice either. Just saying. I think there are too many people that try to be raw HTML/javascript... and not enough that think PmWiki with regards to their skin designs. Again, just saying. As an example... the logo... it should be an included page. In fact it could be a multi-fall back included page... so that it could change based on context even. And the same could be done for page banners and the like. All of this is DEFAULT PmWiki... skins should be SIMPLE... customizations should be elegant and leverage the power of PmWiki... again... just saying. For me, if people could see the elegance of a skin design that truly leverages PmWiki instead of HTML (again, the current skin does some work to present a SearchBox... and in all fairness, that can be DONE using PmWiki markup...)... if people could see that elegance of design IMHO, it helps truly sell it... anyone can create a bunch of blinky lights and hard coded HTML and javascript... but NONE of that is really PmWiki. Just saying... ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> why not triad? While slightly better, it's still using the old fashionned blue links, and the interface is quite complicated with all the options (for changing colors and such), 3 columns etc. Somethink like http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/Skins?skin=beeblebrox-gila2 a sober. I was more thinking to a refreshing and simple theme. If I may give another critic, the pmwiki.org website is also quite complicated, with so many links it looks quite confusing (for non geeks people): 21 links on the left menu, and the Recent Changes, Search, View Edit History Print Backlinks (which is quite normal, but add to the confusion). In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt to show only half of those links, and giving other informations in subfolders. Home page: ok Wiki sandbox: ok All recent changes: ok (short) : is it really necessary? PmWiki & pmwiki.org : this part could be simplified, for example with 3 or 4 menus only: - "Get it", with Download, Installation, FAQ, release notes - "Learn it" (or something like that, discover it etc), with Features, Basic editing, Doc index, philosophy - "improve it" : cookbook, skins, pits (bug tracker) - "communicate with it (or interact with it)" : contact us, mailing list, success stories, pmwiki users Send Pm money: ok Other languages: ok I've posted an article about PmWiki on a linux (geek) website, and one user told while he thought pmwiki was a good product, he found the documentation confusing and the marketing could be improved: https://linuxfr.org/news/sortie-de-pmwiki%C2%A02229#comment-1257952 I realize the work which was already done on the documentation is huge, but if the informations were more progressive, only disclosing new things when needed, instead of giving all of them at once (it's not easy to work on this, I suppose), it would help to make PmWiki more appealing. ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Le 11/09/2011 22:14, John Rankin a écrit : why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? why not triad? jdd ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
Re: [pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
> why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? I support this proposal and agree with the reasons. > > I think a skin like this one could be great: > http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin This is a good starting point, but does not work very well in Safari 5. JR -- John Rankin ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
[pmwiki-users] it's time to change pmwiki default skin!
Hello, why not proposing a new default pmwiki skin? - for the default installation - and for the http://www.pmwiki.org website? The current one is not attractive at all (blue, underlined links), it looks like it was designed in 1992, and therefore, it give the impression PmWiki is backward technology, and not powerful at all. Visit http://wordpress.org/ and http://www.pmwiki.org Which one is giving more confidence and self confidence? I think a skin like this one could be great: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/AlalikeSkin Or you could drive a contest for a default skin: it would give not only a better default skin, but also several new ones for the skin collection! ___ pmwiki-users mailing list pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
