Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 2014-05-05 13:50, Ken Kixmoeller (ProFox) wrote: On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:10 AM, wrote: You don't bill for communication time like that? I do (sometimes). Of course you do! I bill them if I am actively working (like writing code), thinking about their project, dreaming about their project, traveling to their office, or running some long procedure (like a conversion routine). In the last case, I may be thinking, coding, dreaming about some *other* client project, in which case I bill them *both*. If they tie me up on the phone, yeah, that's billable. That's time I could have been developing. Now I'm talking 30 minutes, not something like 5 minutes. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/5ec12b5ad60f99c22e7a7f2bfdd62...@mbsoftwaresolutions.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:10 AM, wrote: > And in case it wasn't obvious, charging the full rate might just keep >> you out of those time sucking, time wasting conference calls where you >> get to listen to folks pontificate on stuff they know nothing >> about.. >> > > You don't bill for communication time like that? I do (sometimes). > Of course you do! I bill them if I am actively working (like writing code), thinking about their project, dreaming about their project, traveling to their office, or running some long procedure (like a conversion routine). In the last case, I may be thinking, coding, dreaming about some *other* client project, in which case I bill them *both*. Of course, for me as Paul, I haven't had this problem for quite some time. I have fantasized about having a multi-tier rate card live I have seen (tongue in cheek) for tradespeople: Rate = X per hour Rate if you watch me: (X * 1.5) per hour Rate if you advise me: (X * 2) per hour Rate if you Help me: (X * 5) per hour Only mine would be: Rate = X per Hour Rate for teleconferences: (X * 2) per hour Rate for meetings: (X * 10) per hour Seriously, if you contemplate a different rate because your skills are lower, spend the time to get them to "respectable" then bill at your normal rate. Eat a few hours here and there if you don't feel productive, but bill at the normal rate. Ken --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/CAFyV=L=QX6vtvgCDJZNcCCp7cQb=XEVhTGccAbDjz7XXFm=d...@mail.gmail.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 2014-05-02 17:00, Ted Roche wrote: Truth! A friend of mine in Rochester regularly tweets, "RT@qrush: It's that time again! Consultant/freelancer friends, a reminder: The Double Snuggle is $120/hour. http://www.thesnuggery.org/rates_services.html"; What the ?!?!?!? Wowwonder how much the Snuggery makes every year ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/5f7f30d672b7c1324bf029e3e6c09...@mbsoftwaresolutions.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 2014-05-03 02:07, M Jarvis wrote: On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: On 5/2/2014 2:00 PM, Ted Roche wrote: Ted: As always you have valuable advise and introduce us to leading edge technology as well as guarded secrets. It reminds me to keep my rates at a decent level to afford the things I need and want. ;^) And in case it wasn't obvious, charging the full rate might just keep you out of those time sucking, time wasting conference calls where you get to listen to folks pontificate on stuff they know nothing about.. You don't bill for communication time like that? I do (sometimes). ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/a5bb9185f5fdfcdc8c758662e0558...@mbsoftwaresolutions.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > On 5/2/2014 2:00 PM, Ted Roche wrote: > Ted: As always you have valuable advise and introduce us to leading edge > technology as well as guarded secrets. It reminds me to keep my rates at a > decent level to afford the things I need and want. ;^) > And in case it wasn't obvious, charging the full rate might just keep you out of those time sucking, time wasting conference calls where you get to listen to folks pontificate on stuff they know nothing about.. -- Matt Jarvis Eugene, Oregon USA ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/capt54ryhm69nj7ybbkzq+raaheavz-4r-3ct+s1xfnh9jwg...@mail.gmail.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
Ted, Snuggery[1]? That's a new one for me. You made my weekend ... lol! Malcolm [1] http://www.thesnuggery.org/rates_services.html"; ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/1399066947.26866.113101753.009e1...@webmail.messagingengine.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 5/2/2014 2:00 PM, Ted Roche wrote: On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: Good advice Ted. I just had lunch with my good friend & CPA & I decided not to lower my rate. ... and not because he was advising me. He told me what his rates were. ;^) Truth! A friend of mine in Rochester regularly tweets, "RT@qrush: It's that time again! Consultant/freelancer friends, a reminder: The Double Snuggle is $120/hour. http://www.thesnuggery.org/rates_services.html"; Everyone has to determine what they are worth. Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com Ted: As always you have valuable advise and introduce us to leading edge technology as well as guarded secrets. It reminds me to keep my rates at a decent level to afford the things I need and want. ;^) -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@san-dc.com SanDC, Inc. 623-582-0323 Fax 623-869-0675 http://www.san-dc.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/53640bbf.4030...@san-dc.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Good advice Ted. I just had lunch with my good friend & CPA & I decided > not to lower my rate. > ... and not because he was advising me. He told me what his rates were. > ;^) > Truth! A friend of mine in Rochester regularly tweets, "RT@qrush: It's that time again! Consultant/freelancer friends, a reminder: The Double Snuggle is $120/hour. http://www.thesnuggery.org/rates_services.html"; Everyone has to determine what they are worth. Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/cacw6n4u4zreey4fctfkp31y6sofixbrxbptz0oomuyhq9zc...@mail.gmail.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
A great eye-opener! My CPA doesn't say hello for less than $200, and my lawyer's calculator shows $500 instead of $0 when you hit "clear." Mike Copeland Jeff Johnson wrote: On 5/2/2014 1:36 PM, Ted Roche wrote: On a project-by-project, client-by-client basis I may offer a discount for specific reasons: routine work I can do easily, long-term contract discounts, non-profit/charitable discount, a project/technology I really want to do, etc. Good advice Ted. I just had lunch with my good friend & CPA & I decided not to lower my rate. ... and not because he was advising me. He told me what his rates were. ;^) Thanks. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/53640745.7070...@ggisoft.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 2014-05-02 16:47, Jeff Johnson wrote: On 5/2/2014 1:36 PM, Ted Roche wrote: On a project-by-project, client-by-client basis I may offer a discount for specific reasons: routine work I can do easily, long-term contract discounts, non-profit/charitable discount, a project/technology I really want to do, etc. Good advice Ted. I just had lunch with my good friend & CPA & I decided not to lower my rate. ... and not because he was advising me. He told me what his rates were. ;^) Coming in with the "discount" idea is definitely better. Good luck! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/7fe2334f169456ca8b300ce6c6c53...@mbsoftwaresolutions.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On 5/2/2014 1:36 PM, Ted Roche wrote: On a project-by-project, client-by-client basis I may offer a discount for specific reasons: routine work I can do easily, long-term contract discounts, non-profit/charitable discount, a project/technology I really want to do, etc. Good advice Ted. I just had lunch with my good friend & CPA & I decided not to lower my rate. ... and not because he was advising me. He told me what his rates were. ;^) Thanks. -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@san-dc.com SanDC, Inc. 623-582-0323 Fax 623-869-0675 http://www.san-dc.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/5364044e.4050...@san-dc.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
I was wondering if anyone does this or would like to see what others feel
> about this:
>
I have only one rate.
On a project-by-project, client-by-client basis I may offer a discount for
specific reasons: routine work I can do easily, long-term contract
discounts, non-profit/charitable discount, a project/technology I really
want to do, etc.
You can justify a discount on a long-term project because you save the
acquisition costs of starting up many small new projects. Steady,
predictable income has some advantages.
The way that works out is short-term, one-off or emergency or exceptional
tasks pay a high rate, and nearly everyone else gets a discount of some
sort. When a client starts a new project, we both have the option of
renegotiating that discount.
There are political and psychological reasons to frame the situation this
way. Some clients believe they have to haggle ("Never pay retail!") and
this provides a mechanism. Some client projects turn out not to be as
represented, so the discount offer can be withdrawn at an appropriate spot.
Phrasing it as "I can no longer offer you the discount" is easier to
deliver than "I am raising your rates arbitrarily."
Also, in counter-point to Paul McNett's good points: a high rate attracts a
better class of customers. Clients who offer to pay their nephew $30/hr to
build their site should be encouraged to do so :)
It is also a Murphy's Law corollary that you will take a project at deep
discount only to find a golden opportunity the next week you can't take.
Don't undersell yourself, but don't starve, either. Always set your rate
low enough to feel you're offering the client their best deal and high
enough that you won't regret it if you get the job. (That applies to jobs
you don't want to win, too.)
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com
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Re: [NF] Billing Question
It's whatever you are comfortable with. Personally, I usually start a relationship with relative high rate, and then over time start giving discounts. I'll mark certain entries with a rate of $0 every now and then, but definitely still show the time I worked on it. I think I've lost some gigs that would have been good by quoting a high rate, so I'm not claiming I'm right here. Also, my independent consulting sort of dried up a couple years ago so I've been working full-time for a contracting company. I want to come back to the independent world but I want to have a better plan first, including hiring a couple people, incorporation, getting some initial funding, etc. So I'll probably just go with status-quo and stay employed. Easier. :) Paul On 5/2/14, 10:22 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote: I was wondering if anyone does this or would like to see what others feel about this: I have a large customer and I get requests to work on a web connect application and a VFP application. I charge them hourly a fixed rate that is a pretty good rate because it is usually a fix or a small change where I charge enough to cover changes, testing and updating the application. If I sit in on a conference call or do something other than programming I charge less. Usually about half. Now I am going to do a large project which involves HTML & VFP and wanted to charge a lower rate so that I am not charging an unreasonable amount for the project. Make sense? Some of you will say, "Why would you want to do that?" I have been successfully self-employed for over 22 years - that is why. I would just like to hear others' ideas on this. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/5363e297.5000...@mcnettware.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I was wondering if anyone does this or would like to see what others feel > about this: > > I have a large customer and I get requests to work on a web connect > application and a VFP application. I charge them hourly a fixed rate that > is a pretty good rate because it is usually a fix or a small change where I > charge enough to cover changes, testing and updating the application. If I > sit in on a conference call or do something other than programming I charge > less. Usually about half. > > Now I am going to do a large project which involves HTML & VFP and wanted > to charge a lower rate so that I am not charging an unreasonable amount for > the project. Make sense? > > Some of you will say, "Why would you want to do that?" I have been > successfully self-employed for over 22 years - that is why. > > I would just like to hear others' ideas on this. > > What happens when the next request is at the higher rate and client brings this up? What happens when the want all of your work at the lower rate from now on? Only see you setting up a poor position to be in going forward. You may have to state issues like: Have done no or limited VFP & HTML work before. My HTML background is limited. This shouldn't be a problem because most of my work is in VFP. Sorry but the nice guy will finish last after everything is said and done. -- Stephen Russell Sr. Analyst Ring Container Technology Oakland TN 901.246-0159 cell --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/cajidmykpprt9mvb2murtnhfdxsbtn6yzlenfyyu8kwy0u6n...@mail.gmail.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Billing Question
If you feel that the compensation you want to receive is justified for the time/effort invested, and you don't have any concerns about creating a "standard" that will negatively impact future rates for similar, or larger, projects, then I say go for it. Client gets a good deal (assuming they realize it), you get income you're happy with...win win. Mike Copeland Jeff Johnson wrote: I was wondering if anyone does this or would like to see what others feel about this: I have a large customer and I get requests to work on a web connect application and a VFP application. I charge them hourly a fixed rate that is a pretty good rate because it is usually a fix or a small change where I charge enough to cover changes, testing and updating the application. If I sit in on a conference call or do something other than programming I charge less. Usually about half. Now I am going to do a large project which involves HTML & VFP and wanted to charge a lower rate so that I am not charging an unreasonable amount for the project. Make sense? Some of you will say, "Why would you want to do that?" I have been successfully self-employed for over 22 years - that is why. I would just like to hear others' ideas on this. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://mail.leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/5363dcbc.9050...@ggisoft.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
