Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On 13/12/2014 05:58, Ben Peters wrote: You all have excellent points, thank you! Device Independent Events gets straight to the point, and I like that. Are there any objections to calling this concept Device Independent Events? [...] The reason I want to have this broad conversation about naming is simply for consistency in terminology across relevant specs. For what it's worth, I remember first coming around to this idea of device-independent input stuff (at that time, mainly meaning "don't just design for mouse, but also for keyboard") from WCAG 1.0 (1999) http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-device-independence So I think this phrase/naming - which continues the same thinking and expands it to include further input modalities - is more than appropriate, as it builds on already established concepts. P -- Patrick H. Lauke www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:02:25 +0100, Frederico Knabben wrote: On Friday, 12 December 2014 at 14:40, Simon Pieters wrote: How about "device-independent events"? Aren’t we missing what kinds of events we’re talking about? We would just know that those events are device-independent. So far we’ve been talking about “input” events. If this is still the case, this should be clear. Option 1: You agree that because we’re talking about “device”, “input” is an implicit information. I’m unsure. I think this is generally understood. You wouldn't refer to e.g. the 'load' event as a device-independent event even though it technically is. Option 2: Device-Independent Input Events (dii-events then). Option 3: We’re talking about a totally new group of events, which don’t include only input, but everything that is “device-independent”. Then use cases should be listed. -- Simon Pieters Opera Software
RE: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
You all have excellent points, thank you! Device Independent Events gets straight to the point, and I like that. Are there any objections to calling this concept Device Independent Events? My goal with "Responsive Input Events" was to encourage web developers to use them as part of the responsive design pattern, allowing sites to work regardless of device or input modality. But the point about not being tied to another concept is well taken. To answer the questions about the scope of this concept, I believe it can apply to more than just DOM L3 Input Events. At the moment, the use cases are Input and Selection, and there is talk of doing something related for Scrolling. This design pattern should cover any way a user interacts with a web page, and the goal should be to make such 'input' resilient to new devices or input types. But keep in mind that there is no desire to actually use this term in an API. It is a concept that we want to capture in an Explainer document so current and future efforts can follow and refer to the design pattern, and so web developers understand what we're trying to accomplish with beforeInput events and beforeSelectionChange events. The reason I want to have this broad conversation about naming is simply for consistency in terminology across relevant specs.
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On 12/12/2014 13:40, Simon Pieters wrote: How about "device-independent events"? I always liked "input agnostic", but that's probably too religiously loaded a term for some... P -- Patrick H. Lauke www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On Friday, 12 December 2014 at 14:40, Simon Pieters wrote: > How about "device-independent events"? Aren’t we missing what kinds of events we’re talking about? We would just know that those events are device-independent. So far we’ve been talking about “input” events. If this is still the case, this should be clear. Option 1: You agree that because we’re talking about “device”, “input” is an implicit information. I’m unsure. Option 2: Device-Independent Input Events (dii-events then). Option 3: We’re talking about a totally new group of events, which don’t include only input, but everything that is “device-independent”. Then use cases should be listed. -- Frederico Knabben CKEditor Project Lead and CKSource Owner -- CKSource - http://cksource.com -- Follow us on: Twitter (http://twitter.com/ckeditor) | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/ckeditor) | Google+ (https://plus.google.com/107736718646302128806) | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/company/cksource)
RE: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
+1 to device-independent events (di-events...hopefully not become die-events per the time perspective conversation) * katie * Katie Haritos-Shea Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA) Cell: 703-371-5545 | ryla...@gmail.com | Oakton, VA | LinkedIn Profile | Office: 703-371-5545 -Original Message- From: cha...@yandex-team.ru [mailto:cha...@yandex-team.ru] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 9:36 AM To: Simon Pieters; Arthur Barstow; Tobie Langel Cc: Ben Peters; public-editing-tf; public-webapps@w3.org; public-indie...@w3.org; public-h...@w3.org Subject: Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology sounds quite reasonable to me. 12.12.2014, 16:41, "Simon Pieters" : > On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:39:47 +0100, Tobie Langel > > wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Arthur Barstow >> >> wrote: >>> What is your counter-proposal? >> Heh. >> >> Fair enough, I guess. :) >> >> These seem related to what Java calls semantic events [JAVADOC], so >> I'd >> give that a try to see if it fits the model. If not, would "abstract >> events" or simply "high-level events" work? Sorry if these have >> already >> been discussed and dismissed (haven't had much time to look through >> the >> archives, tbh). > > How about "device-independent events"? > > -- > Simon Pieters > Opera Software -- Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex cha...@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
sounds quite reasonable to me. 12.12.2014, 16:41, "Simon Pieters" : > On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:39:47 +0100, Tobie Langel > wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Arthur Barstow >> wrote: >>> What is your counter-proposal? >> Heh. >> >> Fair enough, I guess. :) >> >> These seem related to what Java calls semantic events [JAVADOC], so I'd >> give that a try to see if it fits the model. If not, would "abstract >> events" or simply "high-level events" work? Sorry if these have already >> been discussed and dismissed (haven't had much time to look through the >> archives, tbh). > > How about "device-independent events"? > > -- > Simon Pieters > Opera Software -- Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex cha...@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:39:47 +0100, Tobie Langel wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: What is your counter-proposal? Heh. Fair enough, I guess. :) These seem related to what Java calls semantic events [JAVADOC], so I'd give that a try to see if it fits the model. If not, would "abstract events" or simply "high-level events" work? Sorry if these have already been discussed and dismissed (haven't had much time to look through the archives, tbh). How about "device-independent events"? -- Simon Pieters Opera Software
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Arthur Barstow wrote: > What is your counter-proposal? Heh. Fair enough, I guess. :) These seem related to what Java calls semantic events [JAVADOC], so I'd give that a try to see if it fits the model. If not, would "abstract events" or simply "high-level events" work? Sorry if these have already been discussed and dismissed (haven't had much time to look through the archives, tbh). --tobie --- [JAVADOC]: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/events/generalrules.html#twokinds
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On 12/12/2014 08:38, Frederico Knabben wrote: At a frist glance I almost agreed with you, Björn. Note though that, in terms of output, these events we’re talking about are adapted to the input method used to generate them. We’re not any more talking about device specific events, like “mouse click” or “key press”. One of these events could be “insert character” and the way it is triggered vary depending on device, platform, ATs, etc. In that case, it feels to me like these are the exact opposite of "Responsive". In RWD, the design responds to the device/environment. Here, the events themselves don't respond...the layer above them is mediating the device-specific events into these abstracted events. So it's not the events themselves that are "responding" to anything, but the environment (the specific device/input modalities). Also agree with Tobie that the apparent jumping on the "Responsive" buzzword bandwagon is, if nothing else, too late now. I still favor some form of naming that conveys this is about abstracted intent. P -- Patrick H. Lauke www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On 12/12/14 6:25 AM, Tobie Langel wrote: I'd be extremely wary of naming a category of DOM events after a term that has a high buzz factor. Hi Tobie, What is your counter-proposal? -Thanks, AB
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Ben Peters wrote: > There has been a lot of debate [1][2] about the correct name for device > independent events [3] as a concept*. We have considered Intention Events, > Command Events, and Action Events among others. I believe we now have a > good name for them- Responsive Input Events. The reason for this name is > that it is the corollary to Responsive Layout: for input instead of output. > Together these two concepts can help form the basis of Responsive Design > going forward. > I'd be extremely wary of naming a category of DOM events after a term that has a high buzz factor. Now I'm not suggesting RWD itself is a fad, but that the term itself will slowly fade away as the technology becomes mainstream and the focus moves beyond (or elsewhere), e.g. on card-based design[VINH], context-aware design[SPOOL], or adaptive web design[FROST]. In five years, Responsive Input Events will sounds as weird as HTML5 App Events would today. --tobie --- [VINH]: http://www.subtraction.com/2014/08/26/what-is-a-card/ [SPOOL]: http://www.uie.com/articles/context_aware/ [FROST]: http://bradfrost.com/blog/post/the-principles-of-adaptive-design/
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
At a frist glance I almost agreed with you, Björn. Note though that, in terms of output, these events we’re talking about are adapted to the input method used to generate them. We’re not any more talking about device specific events, like “mouse click” or “key press”. One of these events could be “insert character” and the way it is triggered vary depending on device, platform, ATs, etc. This makes me agree that Responsive Input Events is a great choice for it. -- Frederico Knabben CKEditor Project Lead and CKSource Owner -- CKSource - http://cksource.com -- Follow us on: Twitter (http://twitter.com/ckeditor) | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/ckeditor) | Google+ (https://plus.google.com/107736718646302128806) | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/company/cksource) On Friday, 12 December 2014 at 01:17, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Ben Peters wrote: > > There has been a lot of debate [1][2] about the correct name for device > > independent events [3] as a concept*. We have considered Intention > > Events, Command Events, and Action Events among others. I believe we now > > have a good name for them- Responsive Input Events. The reason for this > > name is that it is the corollary to Responsive Layout: for input instead > > of output. Together these two concepts can help form the basis of > > Responsive Design going forward. > > > > > "Responsive Layout" responds to geometric changes in the environment or, > if you will, adapts to different geometric environments. I do not really > see how device independent events respond or adapt. They are independent > of their environment already. Instead of "Responsive (Input Events)", it > is possible that some people read it as "(Responsive Input) Events", but > I do not really see how the input responds or adapts either. The input > is what it is, and does not really interact with anything on its own. > -- > Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de > D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de > Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015) · http://www.websitedev.de/ > >
Re: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
* Ben Peters wrote: >There has been a lot of debate [1][2] about the correct name for device >independent events [3] as a concept*. We have considered Intention >Events, Command Events, and Action Events among others. I believe we now >have a good name for them- Responsive Input Events. The reason for this >name is that it is the corollary to Responsive Layout: for input instead >of output. Together these two concepts can help form the basis of >Responsive Design going forward. "Responsive Layout" responds to geometric changes in the environment or, if you will, adapts to different geometric environments. I do not really see how device independent events respond or adapt. They are independent of their environment already. Instead of "Responsive (Input Events)", it is possible that some people read it as "(Responsive Input) Events", but I do not really see how the input responds or adapts either. The input is what it is, and does not really interact with anything on its own. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015) · http://www.websitedev.de/
RE: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology
I like this a lot. In my experience, "responsive" is a word with positive connotations in web development. I agree that these input events are the corollary to responsive layout. -Original Message- From: Ben Peters [mailto:ben.pet...@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 11:48 AM To: public-editing-tf; public-webapps@w3.org; public-indie...@w3.org; public-h...@w3.org Subject: [editing] Responsive Input Terminology [cross-posted] There has been a lot of debate [1][2] about the correct name for device independent events [3] as a concept*. We have considered Intention Events, Command Events, and Action Events among others. I believe we now have a good name for them- Responsive Input Events. The reason for this name is that it is the corollary to Responsive Layout: for input instead of output. Together these two concepts can help form the basis of Responsive Design going forward. This could potentially apply to areas outside of editing in the future, so if anyone has further feedback on this name we should get it locked down now so we have a consistent story going forward. Let me know if you have feedback! Ben * the concept is summarized in the Explainer [3] Introduction as "Today, sites mostly respond to Device-Specific Input directly, causing several issues including difficultly understanding what a user intends, complexity in building Accessible sites, and complex localization. This document is meant to describe the path forward for Responsive Input across multiple areas so that sites can be written more simply across devices and input modalities in an Accessible and future-ready way." [1] https://github.com/w3c/editing-explainer/issues/7 [2] https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=Need+Agreement+on+Terminology&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-editing-tf [3] http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/responsive-input-explainer.html
[editing] Responsive Input Terminology
[cross-posted] There has been a lot of debate [1][2] about the correct name for device independent events [3] as a concept*. We have considered Intention Events, Command Events, and Action Events among others. I believe we now have a good name for them- Responsive Input Events. The reason for this name is that it is the corollary to Responsive Layout: for input instead of output. Together these two concepts can help form the basis of Responsive Design going forward. This could potentially apply to areas outside of editing in the future, so if anyone has further feedback on this name we should get it locked down now so we have a consistent story going forward. Let me know if you have feedback! Ben * the concept is summarized in the Explainer [3] Introduction as "Today, sites mostly respond to Device-Specific Input directly, causing several issues including difficultly understanding what a user intends, complexity in building Accessible sites, and complex localization. This document is meant to describe the path forward for Responsive Input across multiple areas so that sites can be written more simply across devices and input modalities in an Accessible and future-ready way." [1] https://github.com/w3c/editing-explainer/issues/7 [2] https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=Need+Agreement+on+Terminology&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-editing-tf [3] http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/responsive-input-explainer.html
