Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
'Twas brillig, and Gene Heskett at 03/01/10 21:56 did gyre and gimble: > a pacmd ls is quite verbose, about 17.5k and attached. From the looks of it, > it really should be aware of the Audigy2. Indeed it is. The HDMI card is turned off so it shouldn't be getting in your way and the Audigy2 is listed as "SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Analog Stereo". I presume from this output that everything is showing up OK? Also how are you looking for your devices? I see you are running KDE as my module-device-manager is loaded. Perhaps the problem here is actually related to the KDE interaction... if e.g. "mplayer somefile.mp3" works OK and shows up in pavucontrol but e.g. amarok or dragonplayer does not, then this is probably indicative of that. If so, please open a mandriva bug report so I can track it. I notice from the arguments in module-udev-detect that you are using the more modern access mode. You could try disabling glitch-free mode in draksound to see if the older, interrupt driven mode will work better with the Audigy2. It's always worth trying although I am keeping my eyes on a possible regression with this interrupt mode: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=537378 so be mindful of that. Cheers Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Gene Heskett wrote: >On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Colin Guthrie wrote: >>'Twas brillig, and Gene Heskett at 22/12/09 20:49 did gyre and gimble: >>> On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Arun Raghavan wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: [...] > Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the > man pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? [...] > I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors > extant all over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow > directions. We just don't have a thing to read yet. [...] Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? >>> >>> Now I have. And it seems awfully complex for something that should just >>> work. >> >>This is more aimed at distro's to ensure their packages are configured >>correctly out of the box. >> >>This is why a lot of perceive PA problems are really the fault of >>configuration. >> >>> Also printed for reference since I have no sound on the mandriva 2010 64 >>> bit install >> >>Have you got a bug number for this... it must have slipped under my >>radar, sorry :( >> >>Obviously I'm running Mandriva and I also use the 64 bit version, so >>fundamentally there is nothing broken, but there can obviously be >>numerous places where problems can arise so we should be able to narrow >>down where the problem is. >> >>Col > >Well, before I attack the sound, I must have it working well enough for > email to work, and when I next boot it, I will likely concentrate on that > before I come crawling back for help with the silent audio. Once email is > working, and I have moved my /root/.mozilla here to /me/.mozilla on the > mandriva install and fixed any perms that discloses, then I'll be ready to > rumble on this. Thanks Colin. > Ok, on the mdv install now. a pacmd ls is quite verbose, about 17.5k and attached. From the looks of it, it really should be aware of the Audigy2. Now, I probably should go start fetchmail so I can get replies. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Overdrawn? But I still have checks left! Welcome to PulseAudio! Use "help" for usage information. >>> Memory blocks currently allocated: 1, size: 63.9 KiB. Memory blocks allocated during the whole lifetime: 70, size: 2.2 MiB. Memory blocks imported from other processes: 0, size: 0 B. Memory blocks exported to other processes: 0, size: 0 B. Total sample cache size: 0 B. Default sample spec: s16le 2ch 44100Hz Default channel map: front-left,front-right Default sink name: alsa_output.1.analog-stereo Default source name: alsa_input.1.analog-stereo Memory blocks of type POOL: 1 allocated/1 accumulated. Memory blocks of type POOL_EXTERNAL: 0 allocated/0 accumulated. Memory blocks of type APPENDED: 0 allocated/0 accumulated. Memory blocks of type USER: 0 allocated/0 accumulated. Memory blocks of type FIXED: 0 allocated/69 accumulated. Memory blocks of type IMPORTED: 0 allocated/0 accumulated. 22 module(s) loaded. index: 0 name: argument: <> used: -1 load once: yes properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "Automatically restore the volume/mute state of devices" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 1 name: argument: <> used: -1 load once: yes properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "Automatically restore the volume/mute/device state of streams" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 2 name: argument: <> used: -1 load once: yes properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "Automatically restore profile of cards" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 3 name: argument: <> used: -1 load once: yes properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "Augment the property sets of streams with additional static information" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 4 name: argument: used: 0 load once: no properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "ALSA Card" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 5 name: argument: used: 0 load once: no properties: module.author = "Lennart Poettering" module.description = "ALSA Card" module.version = "0.9.19-7mdv2010.0" index: 6 name: argume
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Colin Guthrie wrote: >'Twas brillig, and Gene Heskett at 22/12/09 20:49 did gyre and gimble: >> On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Arun Raghavan wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> [...] >>> Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the man pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? >>> >>> [...] >>> I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors extant all over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow directions. We just don't have a thing to read yet. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? >> >> Now I have. And it seems awfully complex for something that should just >> work. > >This is more aimed at distro's to ensure their packages are configured >correctly out of the box. > >This is why a lot of perceive PA problems are really the fault of >configuration. > >> Also printed for reference since I have no sound on the mandriva 2010 64 >> bit install > >Have you got a bug number for this... it must have slipped under my >radar, sorry :( > >Obviously I'm running Mandriva and I also use the 64 bit version, so >fundamentally there is nothing broken, but there can obviously be >numerous places where problems can arise so we should be able to narrow >down where the problem is. > >Col Well, before I attack the sound, I must have it working well enough for email to work, and when I next boot it, I will likely concentrate on that before I come crawling back for help with the silent audio. Once email is working, and I have moved my /root/.mozilla here to /me/.mozilla on the mandriva install and fixed any perms that discloses, then I'll be ready to rumble on this. Thanks Colin. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Always draw your curves, then plot your reading. ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
'Twas brillig, and Gene Heskett at 22/12/09 20:49 did gyre and gimble: > On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Arun Raghavan wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: >> [...] >> >>> Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the man >>> pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? >> >> [...] >> >>> I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors extant >>> all over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow directions. >>> We just don't have a thing to read yet. >> >> [...] >> >> Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? >> > Now I have. And it seems awfully complex for something that should just > work. This is more aimed at distro's to ensure their packages are configured correctly out of the box. This is why a lot of perceive PA problems are really the fault of configuration. > Also printed for reference since I have no sound on the mandriva 2010 64 bit > install Have you got a bug number for this... it must have slipped under my radar, sorry :( Obviously I'm running Mandriva and I also use the 64 bit version, so fundamentally there is nothing broken, but there can obviously be numerous places where problems can arise so we should be able to narrow down where the problem is. Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
Le 22/12/2009 21:49, Gene Heskett a écrit : Now I have. And it seems awfully complex for something that should just work. I'll bite. PulseAudio, while not being 100% perfect yet, is like NetworkManager 4 years ago, or Compiz about 2 years ago. All those projects have in common that they're pushing the infrastructure beyond anything that's been done before. When NM started, Dan Williams (its creator) spent months kicking kernel drivers to get them to behave somewhat sanely by properly supporting the various iwconfig properties : scanning, signal strength, WPA, etc. (Doesn't that sound awfully familiar?) Today, no-one even notices NetworkManager anymore because the project has been so successful. And even if people choose to use Moblin's wifi manager or wicd instead, the very fact remains that NM was the first userland project to pull Linux's wifi stack out of its miserable state. I could go on about Compiz and graphics drivers, but I'm sure I've said enough for now. Bottom line, sound on Linux is still a mess but PA is helping a _lot_ to clean it all up (and it really is starting to show). I can only encourage you to file bugs wherever appropriate so that sound on Linux just works. Cheers, Rémi ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tuesday 22 December 2009, Arun Raghavan wrote: >On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: >[...] > >> Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the man >> pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? > >[...] > >> I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors extant >> all over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow directions. >> We just don't have a thing to read yet. > >[...] > >Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? > Now I have. And it seems awfully complex for something that should just work. Also printed for reference since I have no sound on the mandriva 2010 64 bit install I shall use as the canary's equ, and may switch to as this F10 has been EOL'd. Mint 8 was the other candidate, but trying to use the same /home partition has led to many gotchas from the lack of a common base numbering system for the users between them. But one thing was nice on Mint 8 (64 bit), fglxr installed without a single hiccup, and made X about 10x faster, without the display trash that radeonhd leaves behind all too often when running this F10. It will take a while to absorb and implement this. Thank you very much. >Cheers, >Arun > >___ >pulseaudio-discuss mailing list >pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de >https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss > -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) We Klingons believe as you do -- the sick should die. Only the strong should live. -- Kras, "Friday's Child", stardate 3497.2 ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Arun Raghavan wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: > [...] >> Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the man >> pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? > [...] >> I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors extant all >> over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow directions. We just >> don't have a thing to read yet. > [...] > > Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? > It is about endusers not about distributors or developers. I haven't seen http://www.microsoft.com/audio/PerfectSetup nor http://www.apple.com/audio/PerfectSetup yet (please correct me if I'm wrong) Markus ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:47 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote: [...] > Coding is kewl, I do it myself on smaller systems, but where are the man > pages that should allow us to make it Just Work(TM)? [...] > I think the majority of us are interested. And contrary to rumors extant all > over the web, the majority of us _can_ read and follow directions. We just > don't have a thing to read yet. [...] Have you seen this: http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup ? Cheers, Arun ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Monday 21 December 2009, Colin Guthrie wrote: >Hello once again. > > >As an opener to your mail I will point out that at no point to you refer >to any of the technical reasons as to why PA adoption is a good thing. >All you do is point out the fact that you've had a few problems (and as >someone at the front line of PA support and distro roll out, I can >certainly say you've had many more problems than most users and I >sympathise with that). > >'Twas brillig, and Markus Rechberger at 21/12/09 00:14 did gyre and gimble: >> I was using PA for around 1 1/2 years now. My feedback: >> 1. I asked for some help which worked out fine at the beginning >> 2. problems grew and are still growing .. I'd still get some help but >> I just want to have my stuff work and I'm not interested in playing >> debugger with Ubuntu anymore. > >Well sadly without feedback for bugs there is very little we can do to >improve the situation. You quite frequently pop by on #pulseaudio IRC >and basically dish out rhetoric about xyz being broken. I don't doubt >you for a second, but all the times I've asked you for test cases, debug >output coredumps and backtraces you've just ignored the request and >carried on complaining (in fairness there is one "test case" on the >mailing list you posted but it's just code snippets, not a running app, >so I'll have to find time to code it up into an app to test it). > >I don't want to be rude, but without proper feedback, complaining and >moaning does precisely nothing - other than generally annoy the people >who give up their own time to try and help you (which IIRC is a >commercial endevour - so people are quite literally giving up their >personal time to help you and your company do well - please keep this in >mind!) > >> 3. We use to sell devices which are supposed to play back some Audio. >> It was a nightmare to add proper support for it! (we got alot negative >> feedback from customers regarding audio - it now works but other >> issues are still remaining). >> >> 4. I use Skype-out with my notebook, finally I thought everything is >> working BUT .. no. People I called complained about the audio quality. >> 5. simply running apt-get remove pulseaudio -- hey it solved all the >> issues I had? How comes? Alsa is working fine? > >I've said this to you many times before, but here is the situation: > >1. PA is an invasive technology. By it's nature a *lot* of things change >and there are obviously areas where bugs will be introduced. This >situation is needed from time to time and yes it's a pain, but such is >life. More people using it means more bug reports and faster fixes. >2. PA is using a very new part of the ALSA API that not all drivers have >proper support for. This area has been overhauled significantly in the >last year or so and many fixes and implementation of the necessary logic >has followed. Comparing this new part of ALSA to the old ALSA is >invalid. PA now gets the defacto blame for the bugs in this code, >because "aptget remove pulseaudio" makes everything "work", but that's >not to say the problem is always at PA's door. >3. ALSA is very flexible but it has several quirks. The API is very >complex and due to the organic nature of it's evolution. Some time ago >Lennart wrote the guide to audio APIs[1] which (I believe) coined the >phrase "Safe ALSA Subset" which basically spelled out which parts of the >ALSA API app developers should limit themselves to in order to create >portable code. This guide doesn't just apply to PA, but it certainly >affects PA hardest as it's probably the most prolific use case for the >ioplug system in ALSA in which the ALSA->Pulse compatibility layer relies. > >So add the above problems together and add in the obvious possibility of >bugs in PA itself, sensitivity to kernel options regarding scheduling >and latency and you get more or less the perfect storm for potential bugs. > >Add to this some pretty poor adoption strategies at the distro rollout >end and you've got yourself a hotpot of issues showing up. > >It's certainly not an ideal situation, but it's totally unfair to level >all the problems squarely at PA's door. Maybe rollout could have been >handled better, maybe distros switched too early, maybe. But as with >quite literally *every* project, users will complain that it's "too >early" etc. etc. There is a massive expectation that users have that >things should be tested to the n'th degree and viciously QA'ed before >release - this does happen but it's certainly not on the same scale as a >commercial product - this is Free software and with Free software we >need wider QA and testing feedback from the general populace in order to >drive the development. So as with all new things (KDE 4, Amarok 2, >PulseAudio, Firefox 3 etc. etc.) you'll get a backlash from users >expecting everything to be hunky dory on day 0. That is an unrealistic >expectation from this type of development IMO. > >As anyone involved with Linux audio will testify, we need
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Markus Rechberger wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Vadim Peretokin wrote: >> Everyone has their viewpoint. >> Gaming in Ubuntu Karmic is quite an unpleasant experience due to the >> ALSA<->PA plugin making games die / have really stuttering sound. Nobody >> cares about it atm "until after the holidays", so I'm still waiting on that >> for a resolution... >> I have a USB headset, and no, the first time plugged in PA did nothing. I >> had to manually change the input and output streams to the USB headset to >> make my apps work. Worse than that, I'm not able to specify a default one - >> so for every new app, I have to set it to my headset. To make matters more >> fun, PA will reset (at some condition which I don't agree with and doesn't >> help my use case) to my onboard sound card. >> Oh and the new teamspeak 3 that just came out completely fails to work on >> ubuntu karmic. Just hogs all CPU and dies when you try to record any sound >> in it. >> But hey, on the bright side, recordmydesktop doesn't bork out with "someone >> is already using the sound card" problem. > > I think Pulseaudio is still far away from being ready to use on a desktop. > I like the idea behind Pulseaudio, but it should be optional and not > default right now. > Of course the developers want to see it installed everywhere, and it > even has some > advantages (it would be really good if it would work just like it was > announced to be years > ago). > The current status of Pulseaudio: > * It has nice features > * It still has more bugs than Alsa has > * It limits the basic audio capabilities > * A very big problem for older distributions it is extremely unstable > (the unstableness is fixed nowadays but this is a real problem for > applications which are supposed with older distributions too) > > If PA wants to continue like this it should have an easier update > mechanism, and try to make the update mechanism more independent from > the distributions. I'm fine if Colin and Lennard still want to push it > as long as they take care about it, if you can't handle it please > don't tell people to use it by default (personally my final resolution > for all issues was to remove pulseaudio, I think this is what noone > really wants, especially since you put alot work into it). > If someone complains about a bug why don't you provide a feature like > pulseaudio-update to switch to the latest pulseaudio version (the only > ones who regulary have the latest versions are you guys - not the > people who manage the distributions). > > The current situation is not good, and something should be done. > Just to add our strategy right now, we try to use pulseaudio at the beginning (but expect that pulseaudio crashes after at least 30 minutes with older distributions). After that we just kill it until it is gone and fall back to alsa (we do check the returnvalues of PA tooo) This works with older (eg. Ubuntu distributions). But I don't think an audio system should act like this or should ever have a behavior like this, not even with old systems. - This issue is solved now with a new PA version but it's still unresolved for people with older PA versions - and there are still quite some people out there who use older Ubuntu versions. Markus ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Vadim Peretokin wrote: > Everyone has their viewpoint. > Gaming in Ubuntu Karmic is quite an unpleasant experience due to the > ALSA<->PA plugin making games die / have really stuttering sound. Nobody > cares about it atm "until after the holidays", so I'm still waiting on that > for a resolution... > I have a USB headset, and no, the first time plugged in PA did nothing. I > had to manually change the input and output streams to the USB headset to > make my apps work. Worse than that, I'm not able to specify a default one - > so for every new app, I have to set it to my headset. To make matters more > fun, PA will reset (at some condition which I don't agree with and doesn't > help my use case) to my onboard sound card. > Oh and the new teamspeak 3 that just came out completely fails to work on > ubuntu karmic. Just hogs all CPU and dies when you try to record any sound > in it. > But hey, on the bright side, recordmydesktop doesn't bork out with "someone > is already using the sound card" problem. I think Pulseaudio is still far away from being ready to use on a desktop. I like the idea behind Pulseaudio, but it should be optional and not default right now. Of course the developers want to see it installed everywhere, and it even has some advantages (it would be really good if it would work just like it was announced to be years ago). The current status of Pulseaudio: * It has nice features * It still has more bugs than Alsa has * It limits the basic audio capabilities * A very big problem for older distributions it is extremely unstable (the unstableness is fixed nowadays but this is a real problem for applications which are supposed with older distributions too) If PA wants to continue like this it should have an easier update mechanism, and try to make the update mechanism more independent from the distributions. I'm fine if Colin and Lennard still want to push it as long as they take care about it, if you can't handle it please don't tell people to use it by default (personally my final resolution for all issues was to remove pulseaudio, I think this is what noone really wants, especially since you put alot work into it). If someone complains about a bug why don't you provide a feature like pulseaudio-update to switch to the latest pulseaudio version (the only ones who regulary have the latest versions are you guys - not the people who manage the distributions). The current situation is not good, and something should be done. Markus > ___ > pulseaudio-discuss mailing list > pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de > https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss > > ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
Everyone has their viewpoint. Gaming in Ubuntu Karmic is quite an unpleasant experience due to the ALSA<->PA plugin making games die / have really stuttering sound. Nobody cares about it atm "until after the holidays", so I'm still waiting on that for a resolution... I have a USB headset, and no, the first time plugged in PA did nothing. I had to manually change the input and output streams to the USB headset to make my apps work. Worse than that, I'm not able to specify a default one - so for every new app, I have to set it to my headset. To make matters more fun, PA will reset (at some condition which I don't agree with and doesn't help my use case) to my onboard sound card. Oh and the new teamspeak 3 that just came out completely fails to work on ubuntu karmic. Just hogs all CPU and dies when you try to record any sound in it. But hey, on the bright side, recordmydesktop doesn't bork out with "someone is already using the sound card" problem. ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
Hello once again. As an opener to your mail I will point out that at no point to you refer to any of the technical reasons as to why PA adoption is a good thing. All you do is point out the fact that you've had a few problems (and as someone at the front line of PA support and distro roll out, I can certainly say you've had many more problems than most users and I sympathise with that). 'Twas brillig, and Markus Rechberger at 21/12/09 00:14 did gyre and gimble: > I was using PA for around 1 1/2 years now. My feedback: > 1. I asked for some help which worked out fine at the beginning > 2. problems grew and are still growing .. I'd still get some help but > I just want to have my stuff work and I'm not interested in playing > debugger with Ubuntu anymore. Well sadly without feedback for bugs there is very little we can do to improve the situation. You quite frequently pop by on #pulseaudio IRC and basically dish out rhetoric about xyz being broken. I don't doubt you for a second, but all the times I've asked you for test cases, debug output coredumps and backtraces you've just ignored the request and carried on complaining (in fairness there is one "test case" on the mailing list you posted but it's just code snippets, not a running app, so I'll have to find time to code it up into an app to test it). I don't want to be rude, but without proper feedback, complaining and moaning does precisely nothing - other than generally annoy the people who give up their own time to try and help you (which IIRC is a commercial endevour - so people are quite literally giving up their personal time to help you and your company do well - please keep this in mind!) > 3. We use to sell devices which are supposed to play back some Audio. > It was a nightmare to add proper support for it! (we got alot negative > feedback from customers regarding audio - it now works but other > issues are still remaining). > > 4. I use Skype-out with my notebook, finally I thought everything is > working BUT .. no. People I called complained about the audio quality. > 5. simply running apt-get remove pulseaudio -- hey it solved all the > issues I had? How comes? Alsa is working fine? I've said this to you many times before, but here is the situation: 1. PA is an invasive technology. By it's nature a *lot* of things change and there are obviously areas where bugs will be introduced. This situation is needed from time to time and yes it's a pain, but such is life. More people using it means more bug reports and faster fixes. 2. PA is using a very new part of the ALSA API that not all drivers have proper support for. This area has been overhauled significantly in the last year or so and many fixes and implementation of the necessary logic has followed. Comparing this new part of ALSA to the old ALSA is invalid. PA now gets the defacto blame for the bugs in this code, because "aptget remove pulseaudio" makes everything "work", but that's not to say the problem is always at PA's door. 3. ALSA is very flexible but it has several quirks. The API is very complex and due to the organic nature of it's evolution. Some time ago Lennart wrote the guide to audio APIs[1] which (I believe) coined the phrase "Safe ALSA Subset" which basically spelled out which parts of the ALSA API app developers should limit themselves to in order to create portable code. This guide doesn't just apply to PA, but it certainly affects PA hardest as it's probably the most prolific use case for the ioplug system in ALSA in which the ALSA->Pulse compatibility layer relies. So add the above problems together and add in the obvious possibility of bugs in PA itself, sensitivity to kernel options regarding scheduling and latency and you get more or less the perfect storm for potential bugs. Add to this some pretty poor adoption strategies at the distro rollout end and you've got yourself a hotpot of issues showing up. It's certainly not an ideal situation, but it's totally unfair to level all the problems squarely at PA's door. Maybe rollout could have been handled better, maybe distros switched too early, maybe. But as with quite literally *every* project, users will complain that it's "too early" etc. etc. There is a massive expectation that users have that things should be tested to the n'th degree and viciously QA'ed before release - this does happen but it's certainly not on the same scale as a commercial product - this is Free software and with Free software we need wider QA and testing feedback from the general populace in order to drive the development. So as with all new things (KDE 4, Amarok 2, PulseAudio, Firefox 3 etc. etc.) you'll get a backlash from users expecting everything to be hunky dory on day 0. That is an unrealistic expectation from this type of development IMO. As anyone involved with Linux audio will testify, we need something with the featureset that PA offers to take us through to the next level - ALSA on it's own is not enough (without signific
[pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio in general - does it make sense?
Hi, I was using PA for around 1 1/2 years now. My feedback: 1. I asked for some help which worked out fine at the beginning 2. problems grew and are still growing .. I'd still get some help but I just want to have my stuff work and I'm not interested in playing debugger with Ubuntu anymore. 3. We use to sell devices which are supposed to play back some Audio. It was a nightmare to add proper support for it! (we got alot negative feedback from customers regarding audio - it now works but other issues are still remaining). 4. I use Skype-out with my notebook, finally I thought everything is working BUT .. no. People I called complained about the audio quality. 5. simply running apt-get remove pulseaudio -- hey it solved all the issues I had? How comes? Alsa is working fine? So what is the idea behind pulseaudio? Basically I nothing but had problems with pulseaudio, removing it was usually the best way to go. Using audio via network? I never did that and most people are already happy if they can get basic audio work. Also pulseaudio breaks the alsa support (eg. if root wants to access audio it does not work root will get permission denied!) So how should this be solved now: Skype needs to work, the software is good even if it is closed source, right now 11 Million people are signed up (according to the list, don't know if skype fakes it or not) Personally I do not like pulseaudio, it never worked correctly (an example with Ubuntu 9.10: http://sundtek.de/support/pulseaudio.wav .. after killing pulseaudio it worked) PA developers usually use to claim that it's a matter of configuration .. well then PA developers simply fail to provide a sane configuration mechanism - and it is not the fault of the distribution guys who just cobble together whatever they can find online. Comments? thanks, Markus ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@mail.0pointer.de https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
