Re: [pydotorg-www] Explaining python.org site for new contributors

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> in case you *still* haven't realized it, we are not interested
> in *your* "contributions" or "discussion input", since they are
> not helpful and only result in our productive contributors
> wasting time on having to read your comments, close tickets,
> etc.

Looks like a crisis from here. Contributors base that doesn't
have any people who can talk. Why do you think the contributor's
base is not growing?

Maybe *I am* that reason? I have the power to butcher any
positive or good idea that could attract people, I have a plenty of
time for discussions. I have dark powers over Python community
and corrupted your souls long ago so that you've became the
infected agents with a mission to put an end to the glorious
march of Python over the World. Suffering from responsibility and
longing for a sun, you can not abandon your quest. I hope you
did't take all that stuff seriously. But there might be some truth.


This list dedicated to web site development has no website
related traffic since the start of this year. It is not normal for such
supposedly high traffic site as python.org, because there are
always people who learn Django and Python and want to see
some good existing codebase. People here could have a
chance to discuss this and improve the situation, but it won't
happen, because I touched the idea, so it is doomed.

> Please stop your annoying quest.

Quests I am interested in usually solve systemic problems. The
conflict usually arise when people don't get it. If you know
somebody how can discuss this without touching people who
directly day to day are part of that problems - I will be interested
to learn from them and put this in practice.

So maybe inviting me to join PSF is a better way to resolve the
problem than giving me commit rights to pythondotorg
repository. If I am part of the PSF, then I will have to blame
myself then, right?


Let's get to example of non-systemic construcrivism so that
people who used to deal with this kind of tasks, could also
find this thread useful. This is a problem I was trying to solve:

https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues/731#issuecomment-198965059

The designer can not test his branch anymore.

My attempt to setup development environment resulted in
a few errors and a few tickets like the one that python.org
doesn't work with latest Python stable:
https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues/906
It was annoying to waste time trying to run the site with
latest Python version, and dealing with non-obvious stack
traces, but how it was addressed after issue appeared?

"Anatoly, please stop opening tickets for feature requests.
You are using up time of our volunteer contributors, with no
real benefit for anyone."

This is the message that is officially sent to public - that
opening tickets and feature requests are wasting time of
contributors. This is the offical "moderator action" - because
who would think that the official member is closing issue on
the ground that issue submitter is a not a proper quality
person to be a contributor? Python has a diversity statement,
so what's wrong with that particular message from
"Anatoly"?

> Thanks,
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Director
> Python Software Foundation (PSF)
> http://www.python.org/psf/

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself
does not become a monster..." -- Friedrich Nietzsche


P.S. Actually the only reason why I have so much free time is
because I don't have a job - nobody needs those invalid
people who can't write any code, blame everybody around and
just waste everybody's time, so economy will take care of me
soon and Python community will be able to breathe freely
again. Just don't put any more landmines there.

-- 
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Explaining python.org site for new contributors

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:39 PM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> It looks strange to me how awarded people in Python community
>> treat external contributions as a waste of time. Or maybe it is only
>> my personal experience? Anyway..
>>
>> https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/pull/912/commits/490b24d855704ca481cda3ed5dd49aeda5d4997e
>>
>> Does everybody share the opinion that README.md of python.org
>> should not explain site codebase and that people should discover
>> the stuff all on themselves after reading through the whole Django
>> tutorial?
>> https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/pull/912#issuecomment-200313543
>>
>>
>> I can not comment on PR, because it looks like comments are
>> disabled for it, so I am asking here. The reasons why I started this
>> is that over the last year there is no interest in developing that site
>> from community.
>
> I refuse to get dragged into politicking, so I'll just say this: If
> the conversation has been started on the GitHub issue tracker, it
> should be kept there until such time as there is a good reason to
> shift. So if you want to move the conversation to this list, start by
> explaining why it should no longer be on the tracker - and why you
> can't resolve this by communication with the person who closed your
> issues.

Thanks for answering at least.

The main reason to move here is that comments in tracker are closed
without no ability to reply. See attachment. This list is listed as discussion
platform here https://github.com/python/pythondotorg#pythonorg

-- 
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[pydotorg-www] Explaining python.org site for new contributors

[anatoly techtonik]

It looks strange to me how awarded people in Python community
treat external contributions as a waste of time. Or maybe it is only
my personal experience? Anyway..

https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/pull/912/commits/490b24d855704ca481cda3ed5dd49aeda5d4997e

Does everybody share the opinion that README.md of python.org
should not explain site codebase and that people should discover
the stuff all on themselves after reading through the whole Django
tutorial?
https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/pull/912#issuecomment-200313543


I can not comment on PR, because it looks like comments are
disabled for it, so I am asking here. The reasons why I started this
is that over the last year there is no interest in developing that site
from community.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] vagrant up broke

[anatoly techtonik]

You may ask in pydot...@python.org which is non-open source version
of this list where people of closed circle keep their administrative secrets.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 1:59 AM, Carl Karsten c...@personnelware.com wrote:
 I am pretty sure this worked a few months ago:

 https://pythondotorg.readthedocs.org/install.html#easy-setup-using-vagrant

 guessing the problem is:

 == default: pg requires Ruby version = 1.9.3.

 Should I post here or open a github issue?



 carl@twist:~/src/pythondotorg$ vagrant up
 Bringing machine 'default' up with 'virtualbox' provider...
 == default: Importing base box 'hashicorp/precise64'...
 == default: Matching MAC address for NAT networking...
 == default: Checking if box 'hashicorp/precise64' is up to date...
 == default: Setting the name of the VM:
 pythondotorg_default_1433542943815_83106
 == default: Clearing any previously set network interfaces...
 == default: Preparing network interfaces based on configuration...
 default: Adapter 1: nat
 == default: Forwarding ports...
 default: 8000 = 8000 (adapter 1)
 default: 22 =  (adapter 1)
 == default: Booting VM...
 == default: Waiting for machine to boot. This may take a few minutes...
 default: SSH address: 127.0.0.1:
 default: SSH username: vagrant
 default: SSH auth method: private key
 default: Warning: Connection timeout. Retrying...
 == default: Machine booted and ready!
 == default: Checking for guest additions in VM...
 default: The guest additions on this VM do not match the installed
 version of
 default: VirtualBox! In most cases this is fine, but in rare cases it
 can
 default: prevent things such as shared folders from working properly. If
 you see
 default: shared folder errors, please make sure the guest additions
 within the
 default: virtual machine match the version of VirtualBox you have
 installed on
 default: your host and reload your VM.
 default:
 default: Guest Additions Version: 4.2.0
 default: VirtualBox Version: 4.3
 == default: Mounting shared folders...
 default: /vagrant = /home/carl/src/pythondotorg
 default: /home/vagrant/pythondotorg = /home/carl/src/pythondotorg
 default: /tmp/vagrant-chef-3/chef-solo-2/roles =
 /home/carl/src/pythondotorg/chef/roles
 default: /tmp/vagrant-chef-3/chef-solo-1/cookbooks =
 /home/carl/src/pythondotorg/chef/cookbooks
 == default: Running provisioner: chef_solo...
 Generating chef JSON and uploading...
 == default: Running chef-solo...
 == default: stdin: is not a tty
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: *** Chef 10.14.2 ***
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Setting the run_list to
 [role[python-dev-box]] from JSON
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Run List is
 [role[python-dev-box]]
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Run List expands to [apt,
 pythondotorg::locale, build-essential, python, ruby::1.9.1,
 postgresql::client, postgresql::server, git, mercurial, pythondotorg::db,
 pythondotorg::prereq, pythondotorg::project]
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Starting Chef Run for
 precise64
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Running start handlers
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:48+00:00] INFO: Start handlers complete.
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:49+00:00] INFO: Missing gem 'mysql'
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:22:58+00:00] INFO: execute[apt-get-update] ran
 successfully
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:02+00:00] INFO:
 package[update-notifier-common] sending run action to
 execute[apt-get-update] (immediate)
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: execute[apt-get-update] ran
 successfully
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: directory[/var/cache/local]
 created directory /var/cache/local
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: directory[/var/cache/local]
 owner changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: directory[/var/cache/local]
 group changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: directory[/var/cache/local]
 mode changed to 755
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO:
 directory[/var/cache/local/preseeding] created directory
 /var/cache/local/preseeding
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO:
 directory[/var/cache/local/preseeding] owner changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO:
 directory[/var/cache/local/preseeding] group changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO:
 directory[/var/cache/local/preseeding] mode changed to 755
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: template[/etc/default/locale]
 backed up to /var/chef/backup/etc/default/locale.chef-20150605222310
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: template[/etc/default/locale]
 updated content
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: template[/etc/default/locale]
 owner changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: template[/etc/default/locale]
 group changed to 0
 == default: [2015-06-05T22:23:10+00:00] INFO: 

Re: [pydotorg-www] New PSF work group: Pydotorg WG

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:52 PM, VanL van.lindb...@gmail.com wrote:
 No. I've been working on the site (picking up from the previous -redesign
 efforts) for a number of months. In addition to bugs or other issues with
 the site, one key problem was that we didn't have the facility to reasonably
 invite others to participate.

Or don't have the desire? Github + Blog works quite well for thousands of
open source projects out there. PyCon sprints is also a good place.

 We are close to getting that all set. We are migrating all the work to
 public repositories, we created a distributed ownership model for content,

What ownership? IIRC PSF owns everything on *.python.org sites.

 we opened up a public bug tracker (which I believe has been announced here,
 among other places), and soon we will have a public workflow that will allow
 everyone to work on the site together.

I raised all these question few years ago. What happened since then?
Who is making decisions? Why the change all of the sudden?

 It takes planning and support to create a distributed system that isn't
 frustrating... so I am working on that so we can transition to a model that
 invites open participation.

Too abstract to me. If PSF can sponsor integration of PyPI with OpenID
Connect - that would be a first step to distributed, non-frustrating system.
Also, if you really want to make a workflow - don't try to make it and impose
as some universal law - just remove the obstacles and people will make
it themselves.

 In the mean time, this hasn't been closed. We have had three or four public
 working sessions, the most recent being at PyCon. We had a number of people
 participate, and it was in those sessions that we made the plan so that we
 could move to broader community ownership of parts of the site and figured
 out what would need to be done to support that kind of collaboration.

Well, it can clarify the workflow if you can provide example of how community
ownership decided to go with Apache 2 license, why the stack as it is now. It
will also help if before acting you could run a poll to gather some
data about site
or at least give some concise report on the analysis.
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[pydotorg-www] Broken links

[anatoly techtonik]

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonGraphApi

It is the most unfortunate that mechanism for preserving old links was
not added to the new website specification.

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Re: [pydotorg-www] allow me to edit the wiki

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.org wrote:
 BenjaminPeterson

I am here https://wiki.python.org/moin/TrustedEditorsGroup but I can't
add you. You
probably need to ask someone from https://wiki.python.org/moin/AdminGroup

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Broken wiki search

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:16 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 15.08.2014 11:02, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 Wiki search seems broken. Searching full-text for highscore gives 0
 results, but highscores gives 1. I assume that this might be a
 limitation of our search engine, but I may be wrong.

 This is a limitation of the wiki search engine, but there are ways
 around it:

 https://wiki.python.org/moin/HelpOnSearching

It works, but there is still something wrong about it. Searching for
regex:highscore.* still gives 755 false results in addition to 1 that is
right.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Psf-redesign] Fwd: [Pydotorg] Fwd: pydotorg 'easy' github issues

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

Judging from the fact that there was no response from pydotorg inner circle
where all admins are supposed to be, and no response from the so-called
'community of pydotorg-www' I propose reorganization to make things clear
and obvious. In result:

  - pydotorg-www@ stops to function, redirects to pydotorg
  - pydotorg@ is closed and renamed, new pydotorg is created, which
becomes open (public) point of contact with public list of subscribers (with
admin/activity/committer to project marks), searchable archives and link to
web interfaces for posting (nabble or Mailman3)
  - infrastructure@ is the list where all sensitive information is
handled - closed
or open - depends on admins professionalism, who do not rely on security
by obscurity schemes
  - security@ is the list to accept mail from lurking hackers, as usual

If that goes well, I promise to give a further boon to resolve user experience
problems for new contributors, and I guess that we need some fresh blood who
knows about HTML5, Angular, d3 and all that fancy CSS generators that are
extensively used by Ruby folks.

That's is deadly wrong that we don't have an inclusive playground for new
talents and instead of learning new things and adapting out habits, force them
to use our old and often very awkward practices.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote:
 Hi! Could we maybe set up a once-monthly FAQ post giving noobs the lowdown
 on how to reach the repo and build a local site copy?

 S

 On Aug 5, 2014, at 11:41 PM, Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:



 Begin forwarded message:

 From: Jessica McKellar jessica.mckel...@gmail.com
 Subject: [Pydotorg] Fwd: pydotorg 'easy' github issues
 Date: 6 August 2014 07:43:01 EEST
 To: pydotorg pydot...@python.org

 Hi folks,

 Brianna is interested in adding some labels to pydotorg issues, but that
 action is restricted to project admins.

 1. Can someone who is a project admin either add these labels, or engage
 Brianna CC'ing this list about alternatives?

 2. How can I check who the project admins are?

 3. Is restricting labels to admins the right level of restriction?

 -Jessica


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Brianna Laugher brianna.laug...@gmail.com
 Date: Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 8:35 PM
 Subject: pydotorg 'easy' github issues
 To: jesst...@mit.edu
 Cc: Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com


 Hi Jessica!

 I'm at PyCon AU sprints and Nick suggested that pydotorg could be a good
 project for newbies to contribute to.

 I went through the issues and I suggest that it could be useful to tag the
 following issues as easy pickings:

 - Add note in README for how to contribute #60 (add link to mailing list)
 - Dead link and typo #422
 - Become a member link points to the wrong page #397
 - newjobs/review statusaction #447
 - job board - extra escaping #446
 - PSF recognizes *three* categories of members #429
 - docutils admonitions no longer stand out #428
 - PSF: Mission links to membership FAQ entry that no longer exists #392
 - Order download files better #273
 - Accented characters broken for Python donor list #254

 It would probably also be useful for some issues to be tagged as PSF input
 needed or something similar (this might be synonymous with content, but
 Nick mentioned the admin around pydotorg is still a bit amorphous).

 cheers
 Brianna


 --
 They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
 http://modernthings.org/

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 May you do good and not evil
 May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
 May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
 -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






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 --
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 DjangoCon US, Portland, ORhttp://djangocon.us Aug 30-Sep 6, 2014


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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Psf-redesign] Fwd: [Pydotorg] Fwd: pydotorg 'easy' github issues

[anatoly techtonik]

Sorry, I have to leave for a day or two, so I don't have time to strip this
long stream of words. It is a little bit harsh, too verbose, may be cynical and
expressive, but looks ok.

On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 1:07 AM, Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote:
 [BCc'ing RFP Redesign to end-thread them]

 On Aug 8, 2014, at 2:23 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 Judging from the fact that there was no response from pydotorg inner circle
 where all admins are supposed to be, and no response from the so-called
 'community of pydotorg-www' I propose reorganization to make things clear
 and obvious. In result:

 Didn't you propose the last reorganization and naming?

Right. If you look at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/
it all started with my mail to kill pydotorg-redesign list. Note that this list
and pydotorg-redesign were both dead at that time.

Note also that there was this move few days later, which is in my opinion
good (moving from private to public if I understand correctly) and bad
(giving private list a more privileged short name than to public one)
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/2010-April/94.html
and list got a lot of new a very exciting talks (sometimes even
overexciting).

 What is this one supposed to achieve?

This list is dead. Take a look at the stats. Traffic is mostly
requests for adding
people to wiki to promote courses and events after wiki editing was closed. List
for a open source open community collaborative site with over million downloads
and I don't know how many daily views gets wiki closed for edits, because
nobody can write a piece of code in Python with several simple checks and
moderation queue to eat spam? Yea, we don't have time for that. And all of this
at a time when US invests millions of dollars in education programs to teach
children how to code. All this knowing that there are thousands students who
are learning Python and would be glad to do something useful instead of
boring and predefined tasks. Damn.. Even companies are interested to keep
communication with upstream communities and give apprentices task useful
for upstream (if only upstream had resources to review them).

I don't know who are involved in all recent python.org activity, but apparently
even they are not here if nobody can answer the question who updates teh site.
Don't get me wrong, but IMHO that's an indicator that this list is dead if all
shiny pydotorg stuff happens elsewhere.

So, this reorganization is supposed to achieve only one ML for all pydotorg
email traffic. There is also IRC, tracker, and I suppose Viber, Hangouts and
friends for more tight contacts (Trello, Basecamp anybody?), so I guess that
even this won't help (Facebook, Forums, G+). But at least we need to stop
confusing people with a multitude of lists. Call this a rebranding (for which
it would be nice to get a designer with a few JS gurus on decorating
Mailman pages).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebranding
Rebranding is a marketing strategy in which a new name, term, symbol,
design, or combination thereof is created for an established brand
with the intention of developing a new, differentiated identity in the
minds of consumers, investors, and competitors.[1][2] Often, this
involves radical changes to a brand's logo, name, image, marketing
strategy, and advertising themes. Such changes typically aim to
reposition the brand/company, occasionally to distance itself from
negative connotations of the previous branding, or to move the brand
upmarket; they may also communicate a new message a new board of
directors wishes to communicate.

I am not proposing any radical changes knowing how hard it might be to
be both critical and constructive. pydotorg name it easier to use and attract
people to. There is a reasons why Google calls their tools Webmaster tools
and not WWWtools.

 - pydotorg-www@ stops to function, redirects to pydotorg

 Where it was before yo suggested renaming it to pydotorg, if I remember 
 correctly (which I admit I may not).

I never suggested renaming public list to pydotorg-www. There was a time when
I suggested the same thing - make pydotorg public, but people objected that this
will reveal keys, password and sensitive private talks. So this time I
am proposing
a rename.

  - pydotorg@ is closed and renamed, new pydotorg is created, which
becomes open (public) point of contact with public list of subscribers 
 (with
admin/activity/committer to project marks), searchable archives and link 
 to
web interfaces for posting (nabble or Mailman3)

  - infrastructure@ is the list where all sensitive information is
 handled - closed

 Of course.

or open - depends on admins professionalism, who do not rely on security
by obscurity schemes

 I doubt the infrastructure admins would be happy sharing architectural 
 information with people they were not intimately professionally and sometimes 
 personally known to them.

If they are comfortable

Re: [pydotorg-www] PythonWebsite Page at Wiki

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 07.07.2014 11:11, Zaki Akhmad wrote:
 Hello,

 Is this page still valid?
 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsite

 As far as I know, the python.org has been redesigned since (early?) 2014.

 Yes, it is. The page explains the legacy.python.org setup.

Renamed to LegacyPythonWebsite for old site and added link to Github
for new one.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] wiki.python.org MoinMoinExtensions

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:41 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 More recently we also found that we had to make it a little
 harder to get edit access to the wiki due to excessive spam.

 People who want edit access have to email this list to get it.
 This has proven to be very effective so far...

Closing wiki from all edits at all should be the most effective.
Do you have an effectiveness formula?

eff = valid_edits/spam_edits (per month)?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] wiki.python.org MoinMoinExtensions

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:21 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 24.06.2014 09:21, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:41 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 More recently we also found that we had to make it a little
 harder to get edit access to the wiki due to excessive spam.

 People who want edit access have to email this list to get it.
 This has proven to be very effective so far...

 Closing wiki from all edits at all should be the most effective.
 Do you have an effectiveness formula?

 eff = valid_edits/spam_edits (per month)?

 Anatoly: you can derive this yourself from the recent changes
 page at https://wiki.python.org/moin/RecentChanges?max_days=60

 At the moment, we're at 100% effective edits. Before the change
 we had something like 5-10% effective edits.

The formula I mentioned is not right to get 100%. You formula is:

eff2 = valid_edits/total_edits

But we need to get stats about active users to see that new rule
is not an impediment. We can either count active users before and
after:

active_users = registered_users - users_who_made_valid_edits

And compare that to the same stats from the previous period.
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[pydotorg-www] robots.txt make web archive inaccessible

[anatoly techtonik]

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://docs.python.org/release/2.2.3/whatsnew/node5.html

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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Infrastructure] Access to www.python.org without going through the cache

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:59 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:


 Note: Even more better would be to have a preview button in the CMS
 admin interface for the site. At the moment, we're doing live edits
 on a production with no means to even undo changes... not exactly
 state of the art CMS.


Reinventing the wheel is fun, right.

Is it more convenient to render content from version control and edit it
there?
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[pydotorg-www] No password security in new site

[anatoly techtonik]

There is no password generator for python.org account and no checking if
password is secure enough. Is that Django? Why there is still no link to
site source?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Access to www.python.org without going through the cache

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:55 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:

 When editing pages on the python.org website, it is very difficult
 to tell whether edits are correct or not, since it takes ages for
 the caches to receive the updates from the Django CMS.

 Is there a way, perhaps a special URL, to directly access the
 backend system without going through Fastly ?


Or implicitly cause Fastly cache invalidation on edit?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Vandalism/spam on wiki.python.org: changes to default permissions

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:

 On Sunday 1. June 2014 19.55.44 anatoly techtonik wrote:
  On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 6:48 AM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote:
   On May 31, 2014, at 10:49 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
   I've added a new user group called NewUsersGroup, which does
   get editing rights, but we'll have to manage this manually and
   new users who want to receive editing rights will have to write
   to this mailing list to be added to the group.
  
   TBH, we've been doing this on the Mailman wiki for years now.  Of
 course,
   we
   don't have as high a contributor rate as the Python wiki, and I wish I
   didn't
   have to take that step, but it *has* reduced the spam rate to nearly
   zero. I'm sure there's been a cost in drive-by contributions, but we do
   get occasional requests for write permissions and it's trivial to add
   folks to the
   editors group.
 
  Do you have stats about decline in contributions thank to this measure?

 You can get the stats about a decline in contributions by just looking at
 how many spam edits were taking place during any given period and how many
 there will be for a corresponding period in future. But for serious
 contributions, of course there are no statistics: the measure has been in
 place for a matter of hours.


You need to count non-reverted edits before and after the certain date.
That's all.
And am curious about Mailman - it is clear that for w.p.o there is no stats
yet.

I'm not entirely sure what measures Confluence had for spam prevention
 before
 the Mailman Wiki made a similar move, but I would imagine that there
 weren't
 very many given the amount of spam I saw in the site content for that wiki.


Didn't know Mailman chose proprietary software for the wiki.


 From what I can see, this didn't stop committed contributors from improving
 that site.


Being alone contributor is not fun either.

  Is the competence debt in MoinMoin is so big nowadays that there is no
  Moderation Queue plugin for new users?

 There are people working on MoinMoin, so I suggest you ask in their IRC
 channel: #moin on Freenode, if I'm not mistaken. Alternatively, you could
 look
 on the Moin site for extensions and find at least two for moderation, one
 of
 which I wrote a while back and is actually in use on a site for a project
 that
 I believe you have dealt with in the past (and maybe still have some
 dealings
 with). It's entirely possible that you have no idea they're using my
 extension
 for moderation at all and yet have edited that site.


I found only one - http://moinmo.in/ActionMarket/ApproveChanges - it looks
good except that Moderation Queue will be more useful if it is global and
visible by anyone. More people will be aware of it and it could be
crowdsourced.


 But here's the disagreement: some people think that the barrier to editing
 public Internet sites should be low and yet magically repel defacement;
 others
 think that getting serious contributors to demonstrate their commitment to
 making quality edits isn't that hard and that they actually won't mind
 doing
 so (because they are, after all, committed).

 Experience shows that magically repelling defacement of Internet sites,
 whilst
 somewhat possible with some interesting measures that could be implemented
 for
 Moin, is a bit like announcing a generously catered party for one's closest
 friends in the most public and open way possible, not assigning some rather
 persuasive people to the venue entrance, and then somehow avoiding random
 vandals and hooligans from inviting themselves in and trashing the place.


The cost of defacement should be higher than a cost of revert. If defacement
edits are not indexed, there is no motivation to write bots for it.


 Meanwhile, some of us have better things to do with our time than to muck
 out public Internet resources so that lazy people and vandals can use
 them at
 their own convenience.


I still think that the problem with wasted time is a software problem.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Spiced ham edits on the Jython wiki

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:19 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 19.04.2014 03:29, Adam wrote:
 There's definitely a plague of it at the moment, a hundred or so guff edits 
 in the last week. Can we add some more edit prompts or something?

 These are the things we can:

  * add more edit questions/answers (if you have suggestions,
please email them directly to me, since this list is public)

Is it possible to add some throttling analysis to see if new users
behave bad to prepare automated list of edits to revert? (robots
fighting robots)

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Pydotorg sprint at PyCon 2014

[anatoly techtonik]

Which tracker are you speaking about?

The consensus was not to have any tracker for pydotorg.
http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/issue340
That's why this page was born.
https://code.google.com/p/pydotorg/


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:31 AM, A.M. Kuchling a...@amk.ca wrote:
 I've just added a pydotorg sprint to the schedule for PyCon 2014.
 There's no set agenda or goals at this point: we could just work on
 individual tickets from the issue tracker, or we could do larger tasks
 or rearrangements if there are enough of us to discuss them.

 If you're going to be at the sprints and want to work on the web site,
 please let me know.

 --amk
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[pydotorg-www] Wiki search is inefficient - is it possible to replace it with something?

[anatoly techtonik]

Search for wart of critics doesn't bring the necessary page, which
shows up only by warts or criticised. I'd say that search is 50%
broken.

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[pydotorg-www] Running polls on a new site

[anatoly techtonik]

How to run a poll on a new site?

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[pydotorg-www] How to add user group event?

[anatoly techtonik]

http://www.python.org/events/python-user-group/

There is no link how to add event.

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Running polls on a new site

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:14 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 09:02, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 How to run a poll on a new site?

 AFAIK, this is not possible.

=(

I thought it was in initial plan. Where is the plan anyways?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] How to add user group event?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:58 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 09:03, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 http://www.python.org/events/python-user-group/

 There is no link how to add event.

 Please follow the instructions here:

 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar#Submitting_an_Event

Thanks. Shouldn't this info be on the site?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Running polls on a new site

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 10:43, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:14 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 09:02, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 How to run a poll on a new site?

 AFAIK, this is not possible.

 =(

 I thought it was in initial plan. Where is the plan anyways?

 This is the RFP:

 http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

 Not all of those requirements have actually been implemented yet,
 but we'll get there over time.

The page looks is a little outdated. Well, no surprise here - all
initial plans usually divert from final version, and sometimes
completely. I don't see polls there in the proposal. Is there more
current status page / roadmap for the project to check? Maybe with a
history of previous iterations? I'd like see if it is possible to
speed up the progress on some parts.
process.
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[pydotorg-www] Buggy cache (was: How to add user group event?)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:51 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:

 I've added a menu entry to the events menu. The link was on the
 old site, but the new site is still undergoing a lot of changes and
 not everything has been ported yet.

Great. But there is a bug with cache. Sometimes menu is there and sometimes
is not. I am pretty sure it is not my browser. If one cache catches
invalidation event (or generates by comparing new contents) - that
event should be propagated to all other instances. How is the cache
implemented?
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[pydotorg-www] Even menu usability (was: How to add user group event?)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:51 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 10:44, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:58 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 09:03, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 http://www.python.org/events/python-user-group/

 There is no link how to add event.

 Please follow the instructions here:

 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar#Submitting_an_Event

 Thanks. Shouldn't this info be on the site?

 I've added a menu entry to the events menu. The link was on the
 old site, but the new site is still undergoing a lot of changes and
 not everything has been ported yet.

About the events menu navigation. I find it confusing. Most users
(i.e. me) don't need Python Events and Past Python Events in the
main menu. This secondary info can be moved to specific event series
page (and called Python Events Archive) to de-clutter the nav. It is
rather obvious to look for it there.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Running polls on a new site

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 3:39 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:25 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 12:16, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 10:43, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:14 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@python.org wrote:
 On 26.02.2014 09:02, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 How to run a poll on a new site?

 AFAIK, this is not possible.

 =(

 I thought it was in initial plan. Where is the plan anyways?

 This is the RFP:

 http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

 Not all of those requirements have actually been implemented yet,
 but we'll get there over time.

 The page looks is a little outdated. Well, no surprise here - all
 initial plans usually divert from final version, and sometimes
 completely. I don't see polls there in the proposal. Is there more
 current status page / roadmap for the project to check? Maybe with a
 history of previous iterations? I'd like see if it is possible to
 speed up the progress on some parts.
 process.

 You can check the site code base:

 https://github.com/python/pythondotorg

 and submit pull requests. At the moment things are very much in flux
 and the site gets better every day.

 Thanks for the heads up. I am not yet ready to load yet another
 codebase that I can not reuse to my brain, but it is useful. Are there
 any chances to link to the source code from the bottom of the site?

Opened https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues/209
and also sent a request to add project to open hatch.

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[pydotorg-www] Fwd: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie

[anatoly techtonik]

 that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code --
not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death.  --GvR


-- Forwarded message --
From: anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
To: Python Wiki w...@python.org
Cc:
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 14:11:03 +0300
Subject: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie
On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Python Wiki w...@python.org wrote:
 Dear Wiki user,

 You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on Python Wiki for 
 change notification.

 The PythonEditors page has been changed by PaulBoddie:
 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors?action=diffrev1=557rev2=558

 Comment:
 Added ACL.

Why?

 + #acl TrustedEditorsGroup:read,write,delete,revert All:read
 +
   If you have anything to contribute -- e.g. configurations for editors, new 
 editors, or opinion -- don't hesitate to edit or create pages.

Isn't it contradicting with ACL?

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 On 09.02.2014 12:14, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 Can somebody make Wiki send mails from some list address more suitable
 for discussions?

 The message you received was from the wiki notification service.
 It should be obvious that this is not a good discussion partner :-)

I'd hack the system to make it redirect to a list that manages wiki affairs.

The coder part of my brain tells that w...@python.org should alias to
this list, but the marketing and PR departments don't like the awkward
pydotorg-www name, but don't risk resurrecting pydotorg thread, which
will bring back deconstructive whines about privacy and comfort zones.

 In any case, if you want to discuss wiki issues you can do so here.

Me? No. I hate MoinMoin ugly links, GPL, myself and issues. =) But
other users may be interested to discover the discussion means.

 Regarding Paul's change: this was likely to prevent excessive spam.

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: The Python Replybot nore...@python.org
 Date: Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:11 PM
 Subject: Re: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie
 To: techto...@gmail.com


 READ THIS!  (If you want help.)
 ...
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 To: Python Wiki w...@python.org
 Cc:
 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 14:11:03 +0300
 Subject: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie
 On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Python Wiki w...@python.org wrote:
 Dear Wiki user,

 You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on Python Wiki for 
 change notification.

 The PythonEditors page has been changed by PaulBoddie:
 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors?action=diffrev1=557rev2=558

 Comment:
 Added ACL.

 Why?

 + #acl TrustedEditorsGroup:read,write,delete,revert All:read
 +
   If you have anything to contribute -- e.g. configurations for editors, 
 new editors, or opinion -- don't hesitate to edit or create pages.

 Isn't it contradicting with ACL?

 --
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 eGenix.com

 Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 09 2014)
 Python Projects, Consulting and Support ...   http://www.egenix.com/
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Re: [Python Wiki] Update of PythonEditors by PaulBoddie

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
 On Sunday 9. February 2014 12.14.14 anatoly techtonik wrote:
 Can somebody make Wiki send mails from some list address more suitable
 for discussions?

 You can't argue with the wiki? ;-)

 But regarding the change I made...

 [...]

  The PythonEditors page has been changed by PaulBoddie:
  https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors?action=diffrev1=557rev2=558
 
  Comment:
  Added ACL.

 Why?

 Because I'm fed up of having to revert wiki pages all the time. Some people
 may subscribe to the idea that things should be super-easy for random people
 on the Internet to go in and make their oh-so-vital contribution to shared
 resources like the Python Wiki, because it's otherwise setting a high
 barrier, inconvenient for quick changes or just being elitist, but when
 it just means that people go in and vandalise it with their stupid link
 spamming, I'd much rather raise the barrier so that it's more likely that only
 people motivated enough to sign up and to actually demonstrate competence and
 benign intent get to edit those resources.

I'd say that spammers are more motivated than competent people
nowadays. The decline in Wikipedia edits shows a clear trend, so EAFP
becomes even more important to encourage valuable additions. The 2014
solution is not strict ACL, but ACL that just puts edits in
ModerationQueue, which MoinMoin doesn't implement.

  + #acl TrustedEditorsGroup:read,write,delete,revert All:read
  +
 
If you have anything to contribute -- e.g. configurations for editors,
new editors, or opinion -- don't hesitate to edit or create pages.

 Isn't it contradicting with ACL?

 Not really. Random spammers don't have anything to contribute, and short of
 introducing other measures (which exist but don't seem to be palatable to the
 admins, at least as far as I know),

No. The question is about this text -

If you have anything to contribute -- e.g. configurations for editors,
new editors, or opinion -- don't hesitate to edit or create pages.

people won't be able to edit or create pages under ACL, so after don't
hesitating they will become stumbled.

 be a resistance to do so. I think admin time and resources are limited (and
 I've been waiting for months for the go-ahead on something else that involves
 the python.org infrastructure, although I'm quite prepared to wait), and so we

For me such issues should be made public. There are many Python users who
are full time admins, who are mostly free if they good at what they are doing,
and they may help.

 just have to make the best out of what we have. But that doesn't mean asking
 more from me and others who de-spam the wiki just to make everybody else's
 lives, including those of random spammers, easier.

It would be more fun to use the best what we have and not build upon best that's
available. Because in Belarus I don't know people who would do through the
process of requesting permission to edit a page on Python wiki, and we have
about 10 mln. people. I'd also give edit privilege to any person who
made at least
one successful edit.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Implementing a personal standard library

[anatoly techtonik]

python-id...@python.org

On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Richard Prosser
richard.pros...@mail.com wrote:
 IMO, the Standard Library is overblown and outdated, so users may wish to
 implement their own. This may be the subject of a PEP beyond the one (411)
 mentioned in the post below.

 This Dead Batteries Included blog post suggests a way of doing that - a
 pip requirements file - but I am reluctant to link to that particular page,
 if only because there are no detailed instructions supplied. I am also
 unsure where to place it, or the equivalent text.

 Do you have any suggestions, please? Perhaps there should be a Practical
 Python section or the like.


 Thanks ...

 Richard


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Re: [pydotorg-www] Updating website templates

[anatoly techtonik]

I can't even checkout the site to take a look:

hg clone https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org/
abort: error: _ssl.c:504: error:14090086:SSL
routines:SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE:certificate verify failed

hg clone svn+https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org/
destination directory: beta.python.org
abort: OPTIONS of 'https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org':
Server certificate verification failed: issuer is not tru
ted (https://svn.python.org)



-- 
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On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:45 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 I had to tweak the main template today to add a timezone notice to the
 user group calendar. Since I couldn't remember how this is done from
 last time, I had to dig around a bit again and finally found a way
 to have the site rebuilt

 This time, I documented the steps for future reference on this wiki
 page:

 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteDetails

 --
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 Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 15 2014)
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 : Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::

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[pydotorg-www] Hardcore is not only porn

[anatoly techtonik]

wiki.python.org doesn't allow the word hardcore in contents,
which is a bad filter choice, because, well, some talks about
Python internals are hardcore for the most users out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hardcore

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Er..wat? Error on front page of python.org

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 7:33 PM, A.M. Kuchling a...@amk.ca wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 10:53:32AM -0500, Alex Walters wrote:
 The current top item on python.org has the title python 2.6.9
 released.  the message is about 2.7.6's release.

 Oops, too much cut-and-paste.  Thanks for reporting this; I've
 corrected the title.

This should be automated. =)
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Broken Visual Python links on Gui Page

[anatoly techtonik]

Wiki is editable. If you won't find references on web.archive.org, and
authors won't respond, I suggest remove it.

-- 
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On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Dave Legrow dleg...@yahoo.com wrote:


 On page:

 http://wiki.python.org/moin/GuiProgramming

 Both Visual Python links are broken.

 Dave

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Re: FSF Award at LibrePlanet

[anatoly techtonik]

I am +1 for the reminder that usability matters.

-- 
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Georg Brandl ge...@python.org wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Do we want to put this on the front page?

 Georg


 -  Original-Nachricht 
 Betreff: Re: FSF Award at LibrePlanet
 Datum: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 23:32:02 -0400
 Von: Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com
 Antwort an: Discussions about using IPython. http://ipython.org
 ipython-u...@scipy.org
 An: IPython Development list ipython-...@scipy.org, IPython User list
 ipython-u...@scipy.org
 Newsgruppen: gmane.comp.python.ipython.user
 Referenzen: 
 cahareorravwe4dkovxua-ndxo2af7eckjy8qmhdhg7af8sf...@mail.gmail.com

 ... and we're now on slashdot:


 http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/03/24/0053214/2012-free-software-award-winners-announced


 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)

 iEYEARECAAYFAlFOo7YACgkQN9GcIYhpnLBZ7QCfUyWkNNSce1goLIfA9peVegm3
 CS0An2sw1u/S9Vn3ExmY8MlGwnyCD59h
 =MYF8
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Python Wiki Spam

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:52 AM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:

 On Tuesday 19 March 2013 09:30:13 M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
 
  I've added a new set of textchas to the Python wiki.

 Thanks to both of you for configuring the wiki and improving the textcha
 questions. This makes it a lot easier and more rewarding to keep
 maintaining
 the wiki content.


I don't know. I found myself run out of patience typing those new long
phrases.
Users with editing history should not suffer. Is it complicated to find a
place in
MoinMoin to insert a check of len(user.edits)  5 for textcha display and
validation?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Python Wiki Spam

[anatoly techtonik]

Does MoinMoin support moderated edits by new users?

-- 
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On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:

 Hello,

 We're getting a fair amount of spam on the Python Wiki. Can someone with
 administrative privileges check that the textcha feature is enabled and has
 been given a set of effective questions?

 Thanks,

 Paul
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Re: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Meta description - interpreted?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Aahz a...@pythoncraft.com wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 12, 2013, anatoly techtonik wrote:
 
  It is not clear that Python is a scripting language if this part is
 removed.

 Python is not a scripting language.


Your statement is well confirmed by the top voted answer, and I agree. ;)
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/101055/when-is-a-language-considered-a-scripting-language


  On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:52 AM, Aahz a...@pythoncraft.com wrote:
 
  Any objections?
 
  - Forwarded message from James Tatum jta...@gmail.com -
 
  Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:24:18 -0700
  From: James Tatum jta...@gmail.com
  To: webmas...@python.org
  Subject: Meta description - interpreted?
 
  Hi,
 
  The meta description on the home page reads as follows:
 
  Home page for Python, an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented,
  extensible
  programming language. It provides an extraordinary combination of
  clarity and
  versatility, and is free and comprehensively ported.
 
  I think the word interpreted should perhaps be removed. How a Python
  implementation executes code is really not a function of the language
  itself, and as far as I know none of the implementations (including
  CPython) are not strictly interpreted anyway - most use some sort of
  bytecode and a VM.
 
  - End forwarded message -
 
  --
  Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com)   *
  http://www.pythoncraft.com/
 
  Times are bad.  Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
  writing a book.  --Cicero
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Re: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Meta description - interpreted?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Aahz a...@pythoncraft.com wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 12, 2013, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
  On 12.03.2013 02:52, Aahz wrote:
 
  Any objections?
 
  Not sure about that change... after all we call the Python run-time
  the interpreter and having the ability to interpret Python
  commands at run-time is a major feature in Python - unlike
  e.g. C which doesn't support this out of the box.

 Neither the Wikipedia page nor our own About page mention interpreted
 anymore.  And the interactive part covers your point.  So I've gone
 ahead and made the change.


interactive part covers IPython. It is not associated with bytecode that
gets interpreted as machine instruction. So, how is the Python as a
language different from Java now? Other than dynamic vs typing?


  Something that we should add to that description is the word
  open-source, e.g.
 
  ...and is free, open-source and comprehensively ported.

 Done!


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Re: [pydotorg-www] Python Decorators

[anatoly techtonik]

The license clause is attached to MoinMoin wiki software, the code pieces
is a content and are not affected. GPL clause can be removed. It is not
needed (as the /moin/ prefix in the URL).

-- 
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On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Justin Rosen
justin.ro...@dreamworks.comwrote:

 What is the licensing on the decorator code snippets found here
 http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDecoratorLibrary?

 The site says GPL, but I wasn't sure if that was the site itself or the
 actual code itself.

 Thanks!
 Justin

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Python Decorators

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:

 On Saturday 02 March 2013 10:26:14 anatoly techtonik wrote:
  The license clause is attached to MoinMoin wiki software, the code pieces
  is a content and are not affected. GPL clause can be removed. It is not
  needed (as the /moin/ prefix in the URL).

 Although the remark about the GPL applying to the MoinMoin software is
 correct, and thus the content is not GPL-licensed, this doesn't mean that
 the
 content is actually licensed in any explicit way whatsoever. In other
 words, removing the GPL (or actually not applying it to the content in
 the
 first place) doesn't give anyone any right to do anything with the content
 other than to use it on the Python Wiki itself.

 This is an unfortunate situation that was never resolved because I seem to
 remember some people regarding the unclear licensing as somehow being
 beneficial - the only benefit I can think of is that people perhaps don't
 spam the Internet with advertising-laden clones of the Python Wiki, but
 maybe
 these exist anyway - and so any content submitted to the Wiki is taking a
 one-way trip there.

 One could track down the authors of any pages to get their permission for
 further redistribution and use of their contributions, but no attempt has
 been made to do this in general.


I think it is fair to put non-HomePage wiki content to CC0 / Public Domain
unless specified otherwise. If you want to preserve your rights - go
publish the content in your blog and supply a link. Tracking down authors
is a useless activity - nobody will do this, so I'd not make things more
complicated for contributors and users. Wiki is for sharing, not for
placing restrictions on each other.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Images used on Python.org website, and Facebook

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:17 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 On 25.02.2013 16:59, Carl Karsten wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org wrote:
  Le 25/02/2013 08:38, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
  Does someone know which aspects to tweak in order to change this ?
 
  You’d need to add special markup to your page to define the title,
  description and image to be shown on Facebook.  It’s part of what they
  call OpenGraph; it’s comparable to RDFa, Microformats or schema.org,
 but
  specific to Facebook, so adding such markup may be interpreted as
  endorsement.
 
 
 http://mikeeverhart.net/facebook/use-ogp-tags-to-change-images-when-sharing-links-on-facebook/
 
 
  Whoever wants this implemented should provide something like this:
 
  head
  ...
  !-- Required OGP Tags --
  meta property=og:title content=Mike Everhart - Web Designer.
  Programmer. Geek. /
  meta property=og:type content=website /
  meta property=og:url content=http://mikeeverhart.net/; /
  meta property=og:image
  content=http://mikeeverhart.net/mike-everhart-facebook.png; /
  ...
  /head

 I just tested the image selection on Facebook. While I also see
 the success story as first image, the second image is the Python
 logo. The format of the logo image doesn't really fit the Facebook
 or Google+, so perhaps adding an image which can be used for these
 is not a bad idea.

 Does Google+ have a similar standard for defining such images ?

 We could then add both to not endorse a specific social network.


http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=176035
http://schema.org/Thing or http://schema.org/SoftwareApplication
http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=www.python.orghtml=

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Images used on Python.org website, and Facebook

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:12 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:17 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 On 25.02.2013 16:59, Carl Karsten wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org wrote:
  Le 25/02/2013 08:38, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
  Does someone know which aspects to tweak in order to change this ?
 
  You’d need to add special markup to your page to define the title,
  description and image to be shown on Facebook.  It’s part of what they
  call OpenGraph; it’s comparable to RDFa, Microformats or schema.org,
 but
  specific to Facebook, so adding such markup may be interpreted as
  endorsement.
 
 
 http://mikeeverhart.net/facebook/use-ogp-tags-to-change-images-when-sharing-links-on-facebook/
 
 
  Whoever wants this implemented should provide something like this:
 
  head
  ...
  !-- Required OGP Tags --
  meta property=og:title content=Mike Everhart - Web Designer.
  Programmer. Geek. /
  meta property=og:type content=website /
  meta property=og:url content=http://mikeeverhart.net/; /
  meta property=og:image
  content=http://mikeeverhart.net/mike-everhart-facebook.png; /
  ...
  /head

 I just tested the image selection on Facebook. While I also see
 the success story as first image, the second image is the Python
 logo. The format of the logo image doesn't really fit the Facebook
 or Google+, so perhaps adding an image which can be used for these
 is not a bad idea.

 Does Google+ have a similar standard for defining such images ?

 We could then add both to not endorse a specific social network.


 http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=176035
 http://schema.org/Thing or http://schema.org/SoftwareApplication

 http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=www.python.orghtml=


https://developers.google.com/+/plugins/snippet/

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Images used on Python.org website, and Facebook

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:12 AM, anatoly techtonik 
 techto...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:17 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 On 25.02.2013 16:59, Carl Karsten wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org
 wrote:
  Le 25/02/2013 08:38, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
  Does someone know which aspects to tweak in order to change this ?
 
  You’d need to add special markup to your page to define the title,
  description and image to be shown on Facebook.  It’s part of what they
  call OpenGraph; it’s comparable to RDFa, Microformats or schema.org,
 but
  specific to Facebook, so adding such markup may be interpreted as
  endorsement.
 
 
 http://mikeeverhart.net/facebook/use-ogp-tags-to-change-images-when-sharing-links-on-facebook/
 
 
  Whoever wants this implemented should provide something like this:
 
  head
  ...
  !-- Required OGP Tags --
  meta property=og:title content=Mike Everhart - Web Designer.
  Programmer. Geek. /
  meta property=og:type content=website /
  meta property=og:url content=http://mikeeverhart.net/; /
  meta property=og:image
  content=http://mikeeverhart.net/mike-everhart-facebook.png; /
  ...
  /head

 I just tested the image selection on Facebook. While I also see
 the success story as first image, the second image is the Python
 logo. The format of the logo image doesn't really fit the Facebook
 or Google+, so perhaps adding an image which can be used for these
 is not a bad idea.

 Does Google+ have a similar standard for defining such images ?

 We could then add both to not endorse a specific social network.


 http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=176035
 http://schema.org/Thing or http://schema.org/SoftwareApplication

 http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=www.python.orghtml=


 https://developers.google.com/+/plugins/snippet/


To be more specific:

!-- Update your html tag to include the itemscope and itemtype attributes.
--
html itemscope itemtype=http://schema.org/LocalBusiness;

!-- Add the following three tags inside head. --
meta itemprop=name content=Python Programming Language
meta itemprop=description content=Home page for Python, an interpreted,
interactive, extensive programming language. It provides an extraordinary
combination of clarity and versatility, and is open source and
comprehensively ported.
meta itemprop=image content=http://www.python.org/images/python-logo.gif

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Images used on Python.org website, and Facebook

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 1:02 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 On 26.02.2013 09:33, anatoly techtonik wrote:
  On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:12 AM, anatoly techtonik 
 techto...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:17 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 
  On 25.02.2013 16:59, Carl Karsten wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org
  wrote:
  Le 25/02/2013 08:38, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
  Does someone know which aspects to tweak in order to change this ?
 
  You’d need to add special markup to your page to define the title,
  description and image to be shown on Facebook.  It’s part of what
 they
  call OpenGraph; it’s comparable to RDFa, Microformats or schema.org
 ,
  but
  specific to Facebook, so adding such markup may be interpreted as
  endorsement.
 
 
 
 http://mikeeverhart.net/facebook/use-ogp-tags-to-change-images-when-sharing-links-on-facebook/
 
 
  Whoever wants this implemented should provide something like this:
 
  head
  ...
  !-- Required OGP Tags --
  meta property=og:title content=Mike Everhart - Web Designer.
  Programmer. Geek. /
  meta property=og:type content=website /
  meta property=og:url content=http://mikeeverhart.net/; /
  meta property=og:image
  content=http://mikeeverhart.net/mike-everhart-facebook.png; /
  ...
  /head
 
  I just tested the image selection on Facebook. While I also see
  the success story as first image, the second image is the Python
  logo. The format of the logo image doesn't really fit the Facebook
  or Google+, so perhaps adding an image which can be used for these
  is not a bad idea.
 
  Does Google+ have a similar standard for defining such images ?
 
  We could then add both to not endorse a specific social network.
 
 
  http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=176035
  http://schema.org/Thing or http://schema.org/SoftwareApplication
 
 
 http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=www.python.orghtml=
 
 
  https://developers.google.com/+/plugins/snippet/
 
 
  To be more specific:
 
  !-- Update your html tag to include the itemscope and itemtype
 attributes.
  --
  html itemscope itemtype=http://schema.org/LocalBusiness;
 
  !-- Add the following three tags inside head. --
  meta itemprop=name content=Python Programming Language
  meta itemprop=description content=Home page for Python, an
 interpreted,
  interactive, extensive programming language. It provides an extraordinary
  combination of clarity and versatility, and is open source and
  comprehensively ported.
  meta itemprop=image content=
 http://www.python.org/images/python-logo.gif
  

 Thanks for the pointers.

 Looks like supporting both Open Graph and schema.org would do the trick
 for Facebook, Google+, MS and Yahoo.

 http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=1211158

 We'd probably have to use http://schema.org/Organization as itemtype.


I'd try http://shema.org/Thing if it works, because www.python.org is a
community developed language. IMHO it should work. LocalBusiness is what
snippet generator gave me.


 I'm not sure about adding the itemscope to the html tag, though...

 I found the docs for the use in meta tags:
 http://schema.org/docs/gs.html#advanced_missing
 but no mention of using html as itemscope.
 https://developers.google.com/+/plugins/snippet/ suggests to use the
 body tag.

 Since the meta tags would go into the header, perhaps using
 the head tag would be more appropriate.

 Is there some best practice for this documented somewhere ?


I'd say feel free to insert as you wish - that's the best practice. I
believe that for blog platforms like blogger you can not add content to
head different for every post. The same is true for the site with many
different pages. In those cases it is better to insert the markup inside
the body. For python.org the whole www.python.org is dedicated to one
things, so I see no problem with adding this into head, body or html.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] News Item request

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:08 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:



 On 14.02.2013 21:29, Brian Curtin wrote:
  If anyone has a few free minutes, would you be able to add a news item
  on the front page pointing to
 
 http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
 ?
 
  I would do it myself but I don't currently have an operational
  checkout and won't have time to get to it until tomorrow.
 
  Text like The Python Software Foundation is requesting the assistance
  of anyone in the community who works in a company that has a presence
  in an EU Community Member State. The Python trademark is at risk, more
  details available at
 
 http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html
 
  would be great.

 Done.


Veber business will be ruined. How could they be so inaccurate?
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[pydotorg-www] (PEP )?redirector service

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi.

Right now to go to pep from an URL, you have to type exactly:
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008

What is needed to create redirector service on peps.python.org that sends
all the following URLs to the page above?

http://peps.python.org/8
http://peps.python.org/pep8
http://peps.python.org/pep-08
http://peps.python.org/0008
http://peps.python.org/peps-0008

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki renames don't provide redirects for the old pages

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:53 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 On 05.02.2013 03:06, anatoly techtonik wrote:
  I don't remember exactly, but ISTM previously Python wiki set a redirect
  for the old name if a page was renamed. Now I had to fix all broken links
  manually.

 I don't think that was ever the case. The usual way to deal with this
 is to add a redirect instruction to the old page. See
 http://wiki.apache.org/general/WikiFrequentlyAskedQuestions


The wiki correctly inserts #pragme redirected from into the new page
content. It should be possible to turn on the option to insert redirect to
the old name. I am not a Moin expert to know if such option exists though.
This page lists a workaround -
http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/RenamePageUpdatesLinkedPages
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[pydotorg-www] Wiki renames don't provide redirects for the old pages

[anatoly techtonik]

I don't remember exactly, but ISTM previously Python wiki set a redirect
for the old name if a page was renamed. Now I had to fix all broken links
manually.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Changing default wiki permissions

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:13 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 We're currently working on setting up the new VM with the
 Python and Jython wikis.

 In order to increase security and also to help a bit with
 avoiding spam/vandalism, we'd like to disable editing
 of wiki pages without login.

 Any objections ?


What was the monthly amount of posts from anonymous spammers?
What was the ratio of spam posts of anonymous vs registered spammers?

If the both parameters are low, I'd be -1. In other 'words':

if monthly.spam.unreg  5 and monthly.spam.unreg/float(monthly.spam.reg) 
1:
   registration.disable()
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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Infrastructure] Wiki news?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:44 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 Related to this:

 Since I don't think we can recover more data from the available caches,
 it may be a good time to redirect the wiki.python.org URL
 to a page explaining the problem - perhaps just the blog post at:

 http://pyfound.blogspot.de/2013/01/wikipythonorg-compromised.html


It is not clear why this announcement is not on http://python.org/
Not many wiki users are subscribed to pyfound blog.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] FWD: wiki down notice moved

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:08 PM, David Goodger good...@python.org wrote:

 On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:13 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The problem with the news item that it completely misses the fact about
  security breach.
 
  The purpose to make this visible on python.org instead of only
  wiki.python.org is to urge people to change their passwords. Current
 message
  fails to convey this.

 Right now, there would be no point.
 There is no way for people to change their passwords now, since the
 wiki is still down.

 Once the wiki is back up and people ARE able to change their
 passwords, such an announcement would be appropriate and useful.


It's not for wiki. I use the same password across all python.org services,
so I suspect that at least 5% of auditory use the same pattern.


 How about doing something to help fix things (volunteer!), rather than
 just complaining about what's wrong?


1. I rewrote a news item so you won't have to crack your head
2. No access to any python sites to edit the news
3. There is not enough visibility into the process or any roadmap, so I
(like other people) can't see what to help with
4. My help is not welcome here

I write this only because nobody else raised this point, and I shouldn't
write this to ML directly anyway.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] FWD: wiki down notice moved

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:12 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.comwrote:

 3. There is not enough visibility into the process or any roadmap, so I
 (like other people) can't see what to help with


To make this more constructive, the information lacking:
1. The date of the last backup of archive.
2. The state of MoinMoin site tree dumper (is it possible to get the tree
structure of the wiki in consistent (sorted) view?)
3. The algorithm of searching for new pages in Google caches and
web.archive.org (is there a way to detect new pages from the caches?)
4. The scraper state (does it compare the wiki html with cache html for
every page to see if the information in cache is newer?)
4.1. How many pages were actually updated since last backup?
5. Does MoinMoin support enforced password change?
6. What is MoinMoin salt, is it using SSHA, is it the same for
bugs.python.org and pypi.python.org, so that we can check if user used old
password and invalidate this password on these sites as well?
-- 
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Is someone working on restore of the wiki?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:32 AM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.plwrote:

 On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.pl
 wrote:
  On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Stefan Drees ste...@drees.name
 wrote:
  Dear web team,
 
  since spurious reports on python/moin cause not working links etc seem
 to
  pile up, is someone actually working on restoring the moinmoin wiki?
 
  From my access point python.org shows up, but the wiki is giving
  http://wiki.python.org/moin/ HTTP/404 Not found.
 
  As soon as I saw the reports I logged into the server to see what
  happened and wehether it's some simple configuration or permission
  issue that I could fix easily.
  Unfortunately, all the wiki files are missing from the server.
  Either they have been deleted, or a remote filesystem got disconnected
  (I don't remember how they were stored).
  Since I don't have access to the remote filesystems or backups, I left
 it alone.
 
  It's apparently been taken offline for security reasons:
 
  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-January/637983.html

 So, any chance of an official statement about what is happening?
 Why was nobody informed about this?
 If it's a security problem with MoinMoin, then 1.9.6 that fixes it is
 out since some time.


The impact is unknown. If there are no people in infrastructure@ who can
handle this, then community should know to forward security audit request
to appropriate response team.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki ACLs

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:


 If people don't want to have to maintain separate Moin account details, we
 could once again consider the OpenID support, I suppose.


Python custom OpenID support is already enabled. Not integrated with
upstream to test if it's secure, but login with Google account works.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] I have emailed you earlier without a response

[anatoly techtonik]

Should we give Barrister, John and Cooper more details to send us an
official paper about our family legacy ASAP?

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Oscar Campos
oscar.cam...@member.fsf.org wrote:
 We are so lucky!!

 Someone last name is just pydotorg-www we can be his official next kin!!!

 OMFG! xD


 2012/11/6 Barrister John Cooper johncooper_...@mail2europe.com

 I have emailed you earlier without a response. In my first email I
 mentioned about my late client whose relatives I cannot get in touch
 with,but you bear the same last name so it will be very easy to make you
 become his official next of kin.

 In the light of the above, I shall appreciate an urgent message indicating
 your ability and willingness to handle this project sincerely. As soon as I
 receive your positive response showing your interest I will give you more
 details and put things into action immediately.


 Regards,

 Barrister John Cooper


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Re: [pydotorg-www] Code for hg.python.org customizations

[anatoly techtonik]

Is that config with our custom CSS selection backed up somewhere to hack on?
This could be useful for OpenHatch, Google Code In or GSoC opportunities.
--
anatoly t.


On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Noah Kantrowitz n...@coderanger.net wrote:
 As far as I know thats just standard hgweb, we might have some custom CSS 
 somewhere but I don't think we run any special code for the UI. Not an expert 
 on that service though, please someone correct me if I'm wrong :)

 --Noah

 On Nov 4, 2012, at 11:58 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 Where is the code for hg,python.org installation?
 How to link Issue10050 string in header
 http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/53715804dc71 ?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Code for hg.python.org customizations

[anatoly techtonik]

Plans?

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Noah Kantrowitz n...@coderanger.net wrote:
 No.

 anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is that config with our custom CSS selection backed up somewhere to hack
 on?
 This could be useful for OpenHatch, Google Code In or GSoC opportunities.
 --
 anatoly t.


 On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Noah Kantrowitz n...@coderanger.net
 wrote:

 As far as I know thats just standard hgweb, we might have some custom CSS
 somewhere but I don't think we run any special code for the UI. Not an
 expert on that service though, please someone correct me if I'm wrong :)

 --Noah

 On Nov 4, 2012, at 11:58 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 Where is the code for hg,python.org installation?
 How to link Issue10050 string in header
 http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/53715804dc71 ?
 --
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 pydotorg-www mailing list
 pydotorg-www@python.org
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www



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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
 Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?

 Hopefully by migrating it to the new infrastructure.

It appears it didn't help. Creating of a new page took 35seconds,
which is twice the worst editing operation that I personally
experienced with previous install.

Page.execute = 0.001s
antispam = 5.375s
getACL = 0.010s
init = 0.012s
load_multi_cfg = 0.000s
parsePageLinks = 0.021s
run = 35.269s
send_page = 0.393s
send_page_content = 0.027s
total = 35.281s
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt
ralf.hildebra...@charite.de wrote:
 * anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com:
 On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de 
 wrote:
  Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?
 
  Hopefully by migrating it to the new infrastructure.

 It appears it didn't help. Creating of a new page took 35seconds,
 which is twice the worst editing operation that I personally
 experienced with previous install.

 Page.execute = 0.001s
 antispam = 5.375s
 getACL = 0.010s
 init = 0.012s
 load_multi_cfg = 0.000s
 parsePageLinks = 0.021s
 run = 35.269s
 send_page = 0.393s
 send_page_content = 0.027s
 total = 35.281s

 Looks like a 30s DNS tiemout if you ask me.

 (Basically 5s for antispam and the 30s of basically nothing)

Disk I/O?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:28 AM,  mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
 total = 35.281s


 I can't reproduce this. I got

 total = 9.319s


 I don't understand what do you mean by can't reproduce. Do you want
 to say that 10s is ok?


 No, I want to say that 10s is significantly less than 30s; I was not
 able to reproduce a run-time of 30s.

Ok. So the performance question stays open.

 Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?

 Hopefully by migrating it to the new infrastructure.

 It appears it didn't help.

What's next?
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[pydotorg-www] Moin wiki search is broken again

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

Search for virtualenv in titles doesn't bring up
TrackerDevelopmentVirtualEnv page, but full text seatch does.

http://wiki.python.org/moin/Virtualenv?action=fullsearchcontext=180value=virtualenvtitlesearch=Titles
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Broken link to 'Enthought Python Distribution'

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:33 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 WarmPotato? I could only find reference to a salad. Speaking about PHP
 in the context of www maybe the true reason to use is that Python
 doesn't work with web out of the box and PHP does? =)

 It's something I'm still writing:
 https://github.com/Rosuav/WarmPotato

An exercise in Pike? A first look at the language - C with automatic
memory management - I don't know why. =) Speaking about web server,
the main goal looks like an abillity to update site in transaction, to
continue serving old content while files on disk are updated, but..
that's impossible without file system manipulation if server doesn't
keep all files in memory.

 Python works out of the box just fine; when I made a simple
 browser-based manager for my Looney Tunes collection (letting me
 filter by, for instance, whether Bugs Bunny appears in them or whether
 they're about opera), Python was the language of choice. Worked just
 fine.

For me RoR and PHP are still the main answers when people ask about
rapid site set up.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Broken link to 'Enthought Python Distribution'

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Mark Dickinson dicki...@gmail.com wrote:
 Due to some recent server changes at Enthought, the link to EPD on the
 'Download Python' page (http://www.python.org/download/) is now
 broken.  It's currently pointing to

   http://enthought.com/products/epd.php

 It should be pointing to

   http://www.enthought.com/products/epd.php

.php ?!?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Broken link to 'Enthought Python Distribution'

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 6:57 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Mark Dickinson dicki...@gmail.com wrote:
 Due to some recent server changes at Enthought, the link to EPD on the
 'Download Python' page (http://www.python.org/download/) is now
 broken.  It's currently pointing to

   http://enthought.com/products/epd.php

 It should be pointing to

   http://www.enthought.com/products/epd.php

 .php ?!?

 Hey, not everyone has enlightened web hosting :) And even those of us
 who do are not always able to do everything we want to. My current
 hosting box handles a number of sites including several that I don't
 control, so I can't strip out Apache and replace it with Pike and
 WarmPotato, but once WP gets mature enough, I'll move Apache and
 bounce everything through... until then, I'm not eating my own
 dogfood, and parts of my site are still run on PHP.

 No need to boggle :)

WarmPotato? I could only find reference to a salad. Speaking about PHP
in the context of www maybe the true reason to use is that Python
doesn't work with web out of the box and PHP does? =)
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[pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?
Do we have any public monitoring/metrics about how long it takes to
make a request?
Can we enable this info in the footer?


-- Forwarded message --
From: Winston Wolff winstonwo...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap
To: pyglet-us...@googlegroups.com


wiki.python.org/moin is too slow. It takes 10 seconds each time I want
to save my page. Can someone give me permission for editing
http://code.google.com/p/pyglet/wiki and I can put stuff there?

I'm going to post:
 - a To Do list so we can coordinate who is doing what
 - A list of configurations to be tested, with how has tested them and
the outcomes.



On Jun 15, 2012, at 9:46 AM, Winston Wolff wrote:

 Friday is my 20% day so I'm going to do some stuff to help release Pyglet.

 I'm taking Anatoly's to-do list and posting it on this wiki page as a central 
 coordinating point. Anybody who wants to do an item, put your name next to 
 it. When it's done, put a DONE next to it.

  http://wiki.python.org/moin/Pyglet

 -Winston

 On Jun 13, 2012, at 12:27 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 Pri-1---
 [ ] update web site
 [ ] fix epydoc
   [ ] add an issue to tracker
 [ ] move web site to Bitbucket
   [ ] create group 'pyglet'
     [ ] add repository pyglet.bitbucket.org
         (see 
 https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/BITBUCKET/Publishing+a+Website+on+bitbucket)
     [ ] add CNAME for pyglet.org to pyglet.bitbucket.org
         (I am not sure, but it should work)
 [ ] mention 1.2
 [ ] direct link to Google Code from top menu
 [ ] update Contribute to be clear
   [ ] send patches
     [ ] site in repository is broken
 http://code.google.com/p/pyglet/source/browse/#hg%2Fwebsite
       [ ] write instructions / fix it to work from checkout
 (s) Richard needs time

 [ ] merge cocoa port

 [ ] write README
 (s) how is pyglet 1.2 different from 1.1?
   [ ] support 64bit Python
 [ ] write ANNOUNCEMENT
 (s) what's new?

 ---Pri-2---
 [ ] update wiki pages
 [ ] draw a line on http://code.google.com/p/pyglet/wiki/ReleaseSchedule
 [ ] integrate patches
   (s) Richard

 [ ] update issue tracker
 [ ] add website label to issue tracker
 [ ] allow users to assign labels when creating new issues
 [ ] add 1.2 milestone
   (s) Richard

 ---Pri-3---
 [ ] build a windows installer
 [ ] try
   [ ] list problems


 So, who can help with any of the stuff above?
 Is there anything is missing?
 Is there anybody besides Richard with an access to wiki?
 Or we can use http://wiki.python.org/moin/Pyglet, because:
 1. it is free-for-all
 2. you can subscribe to pages to be notified about changes

 Yes/No?


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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
 Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?

 Hopefully by migrating it to the new infrastructure.

And still - that's the cause of the bottleneck?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki is too slow (Fwd: 1.2 beta release date/roadmap)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.pl wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 12:31 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de 
 wrote:
 Is it possible to speed up wiki.python.org somehow?

 Hopefully by migrating it to the new infrastructure.

 And still - that's the cause of the bottleneck?

 I enabled the timing information.

 I'm not 100% sure here, but on other large wikis the long saving times
 were usualy due to having to process a lot of regular expressions from
 all the user preferences in order to see whether the page title
 matches their mail notification patterns.

The results of write operations are very sad - 14 seconds.
Is it possible to postpone mail notifications or do them asyncronously?

Page.execute = 0.000s
antispam = 1.281s
getACL = 0.003s
init = 0.001s
load_multi_cfg = 0.000s
parsePageLinks = 0.010s
run = 13.566s
send_page = 0.050s
send_page_content = 0.006s
total = 13.567s

If we're going to stick these stats (they're worthy to have at hand)
then rendering it in one line that expanded if clicked for copy/paste
would make pages look as good as before.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] bugs.jython giving security warning

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:52 PM, fwierzbi...@gmail.com
fwierzbi...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm going through http://wiki.python.org/moin/TrackerDevelopment to
 make sure I can test any changes I make to the Jython tracker. Martin
 gave me access to the server where Jython lives, but I've forgotten
 how to access it - I had kept notes but I managed to misplace them.
 Admin functions are not where I shine :)

 Once I get all of that figured out I'll set myself up with the
 auto-nosy feature that Anatoly has pointed out and disable the html
 feature.

I don't remember saying anything about auto-nosy. Must be someone else.
BTW, we are trying to mirror all configuration in Chef, so if you have
experience, feel free to translate wiki instructions into patches for
https://github.com/coderanger/psf-chef
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Re: [pydotorg-www] bugs.jython giving security warning

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Jeremy Baron jer...@tuxmachine.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Frank Wierzbicki fr...@python.org wrote:
 Navigating to bugs.jython.org is giving a security warning (at least
 from chrome) -- bugs.python.org is fine.

 http://safebrowsing.clients.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?client=Firefoxhl=en-USsite=http://bugs.jython.org/

The same here.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] wiki linkto: search term is broken

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 3:09 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Radomir,

 Thanks for looking into this, but it doesn't seem the search is
 completely fixed. For example, searching for Presentation doesn't
 get http://wiki.python.org/moin/PresentationSoftware in results.

Any news on that?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] wiki linkto: search term is broken

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Radomir Dopieralski
sh...@sheep.art.pl wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:04 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.pl 
 wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:14 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 3:09 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 Hi Radomir,

 Thanks for looking into this, but it doesn't seem the search is
 completely fixed. For example, searching for Presentation doesn't
 get http://wiki.python.org/moin/PresentationSoftware in results.

 Any news on that?

 No, I didn't find out what is wrong so far.
 I still have a couple of things to check.

 Thanks for the heads up. Upgrading to 1.9.4 (I use
 http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWikiChanges for guessing current
 version info) can hopefully make the task easier. From the
 http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.9/file/56eaf32027f4/docs/CHANGES :

   * Use logging.traceback to get more information if a indexing filter 
 crashes.

 There is also mention of a workaround against some memory leak in indexer.

 Yes, I am quite aware about MoinMoin releases, thank you very much.

 The search is now fixed, I have given up and just rebuild the Xapian index.
 Unfortunately I didn't manage to find out how and why it got corrupted
 -- it must have happened too long ago to leave a trace in the logs.

 I will keep my eyes peeled to try and catch the reason if it ever happens 
 again.

Thanks. Now it works as expected. I wonder if this index has any
self-diagnostic harness, because IIRC bugs.python.org recently experienced the
same problem.
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[pydotorg-www] wiki linkto: search term is broken

[anatoly techtonik]

Search for references to the given page is broken for Python Wiki,
which makes some maintenance tasks impossible.
For example:
  linkto:PythonWikiMaintainers doesn't return any results, but...
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWikiMaintainers is present and..
linked at least from http://wiki.python.org/moin/Community
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Re: [pydotorg-www] License of website

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:
 Hey all,

 What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a 
 copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias 
 for permission to distribute the website to people lacking Internet access 
 via the eGranary Digital Library.

 That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of 
 redistribution, are not clear.

According to the site footer, the owner is PSF, so PSF is free to
grant anything to anybody.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] License of website

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:54 AM,  mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:

 We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
 is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
 to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
 might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.

Then they must sue gmane, nabble and other public sites. Common - this
information is public and if people maintain the copyright notice - it
doesn't matter where this information is located. Can you be more
specific about what can be not ok with copying web site for offline
use?

 Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
 also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the
 documentation
 in particular).

There is no explicit license for documentation. It is covered by
Python license agreement.
http://docs.python.org/license.html

 If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
 to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
 and which one cannot.

The position is disputable.

 So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
 consequence would be if there is no explicit permission given to make
 copies, one may not make copies.

I guess without site structure or sitemap, going through all the pages
doesn't guarantee that all content is covered. This in turn, raises
the question - if full sitemap can be generated with current
implementation of web-site backend?
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[pydotorg-www] Grid for python.org (Was: Website formatting problem)

[anatoly techtonik]

Hello web team,

I wonder if grid based layout would fit python.org? Do anybody have
experience with that?
-- 
anatoly t.


On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.ukwrote:

 Hello web team,

 We've had a report from a user to the webmaster email about a problem with
 python.org:

In Chromium 6 on Debian squeeze, the Release Schedule box on the
 left of the page http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3119/ (for example)
 is too large. It obscures some of the text on the left margin. I can send a
 screenshot if necessary. There is no problem with Iceweasel (Debian's
 rebranded Firefox) 3.5.

 The user says this happens everywhere the Release Schedule box is used.

 Anyone else using Debian Squeeze and able to try Chromium 6 (I assume
 that's the current version) and maybe diagnose or even fix the problem?

 All the best,

 Michael Foord

 --
 http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


 May you do good and not evil
 May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
 May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
 -- the sqlite blessing
 http://www.sqlite.org/different.html





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Re: [pydotorg-www] Grid for python.org (Was: Website formatting problem)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.ukwrote:


 On 20 Feb 2012, at 13:34, anatoly techtonik wrote:

  Hello web team,
 
  I wonder if grid based layout would fit python.org? Do anybody have
 experience with that?


 Website design and layout is currently under review by the PSF, so we
 aren't about to make any substantial layout changes. The specific
 implementation of the python.org layout will be up to whoever we hire to
 do the redesign.

 In the meantime it would be good to solve this specific problem.



The 'grid' is not a design, but a CSS framwork that is aimed to solve such
specific problems - http://960.gs/

P.S. Why PSF is not subscribed to this list if he is doing website design
review? Why not to make the process public? ;)
-- 
anatoly t.



  On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Michael Foord 
 fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:
  Hello web team,
 
  We've had a report from a user to the webmaster email about a problem
 with python.org:
 
 In Chromium 6 on Debian squeeze, the Release Schedule box on
 the left of the page http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3119/ (for
 example) is too large. It obscures some of the text on the left margin. I
 can send a screenshot if necessary. There is no problem with Iceweasel
 (Debian's rebranded Firefox) 3.5.
 
  The user says this happens everywhere the Release Schedule box is used.
 
  Anyone else using Debian Squeeze and able to try Chromium 6 (I assume
 that's the current version) and maybe diagnose or even fix the problem?
 
  All the best,
 
  Michael Foord
 
  --
  http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
 
 
  May you do good and not evil
  May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
  May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
  -- the sqlite blessing
  http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
 
 
 
 
 
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 --
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 May you do good and not evil
 May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
 May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
 -- the sqlite blessing
 http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






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Re: [pydotorg-www] Grid for python.org (Was: Website formatting problem)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter p...@python.org wrote:

 * anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com:
  I wonder if grid based layout would fit python.org? Do anybody have
  experience with that?

 I/we have some experience with http://960.gs/. Very nice also with
 http://adapt.960.gs/. Good for mobiles.


Nice. I was evaluating which framework to choose. Do you think it can solve
this particular problem with calendar on python.org or will just make the
matters worse?
-- 
anatoly t.



 p@rick


  --
  anatoly t.
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Michael Foord 
 fuzzy...@voidspace.org.ukwrote:
 
   Hello web team,
  
   We've had a report from a user to the webmaster email about a problem
 with
   python.org:
  
  In Chromium 6 on Debian squeeze, the Release Schedule box on
 the
   left of the page http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3119/ (for
 example)
   is too large. It obscures some of the text on the left margin. I can
 send a
   screenshot if necessary. There is no problem with Iceweasel (Debian's
   rebranded Firefox) 3.5.
  
   The user says this happens everywhere the Release Schedule box is
 used.
  
   Anyone else using Debian Squeeze and able to try Chromium 6 (I assume
   that's the current version) and maybe diagnose or even fix the problem?
  
   All the best,
  
   Michael Foord
  
   --
   http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
  
  
   May you do good and not evil
   May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
   May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
   -- the sqlite blessing
   http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
  
  
  
  
  
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 --
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 Python.org Postmaster Team

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Grid for python.org (Was: Website formatting problem)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Michael Foord
fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:

 On 20 Feb 2012, at 15:40, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk 
 wrote:

 On 20 Feb 2012, at 13:34, anatoly techtonik wrote:

  Hello web team,
 
  I wonder if grid based layout would fit python.org? Do anybody have 
  experience with that?


 Website design and layout is currently under review by the PSF, so we aren't 
 about to make any substantial layout changes. The specific implementation of 
 the python.org layout will be up to whoever we hire to do the redesign.

 In the meantime it would be good to solve this specific problem.


 The 'grid' is not a design, but a CSS framwork that is aimed to solve such 
 specific problems - http://960.gs/


 Site layout by css is *precisely* a design issue.

We may argue about that a lot, but in this context the point is that
visually you won't notice if grid is used or not, but it may eliminate
the bug. For a contrast - design as a visual perception is not an art
of writing css.

 P.S. Why PSF is not subscribed to this list if he is doing website design 
 review? Why not to make the process public? ;)

 The PSF is a bunch of individuals, many of whom *are* subscribed to this 
 list. The process will be public. That doesn't mean that all the minutiae 
 will all be endlessly discussed, which is the (incorrect) definition of 
 public that some people use. The call for tenders have not been worked out 
 yet.

Why PSF can't crowd-source the process? There are many designers out
there, who can help. Is there a PEP, a FAQ or at least something on
it?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Wiki: Better style for rst headers

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.plwrote:

 On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:44, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Can anybody fix the style to add bold to 2nd level rst headers - they are
  almost indistinguishable
 http://wiki.python.org/moin/DesiredTrackerFeatures

 I changed the level 3 and 4 headers to be more prominent. Thanks for
 the feedback.


That's much better. Thanks. )
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

This got stuck again. Anybody to give me access to the necessary
configuration to send you a patch?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fw: [Archiver-policy] Impact of SOPA?

[anatoly techtonik]

If there are SOPA supporters amongst PSF sponsors then PSF is not
interested in any conflicts with them.
But Python is developed by community, so is PFS doesn't respect the
community opinion, it may do more harm.

Ignoring SOPA is a communication fail.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Infrastructure] python.org down?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.dewrote:

  What's being done to diagnose this further?

 The current diagnosis is that the disk driver reports SCSI errors on the
 RAID controller. They don't get logged to disk, as the disk has
 failed...

 Things go downhill from their, apparently causing a kernel hang
 ultimately.

 The RAID controller itself reports that it is in optimal condition
 (i.e. no hardware failures).

 I'm hesitant to perform a firmware update to the controller without
 physical access in case the update fails.

  2 outages in the space of 3 or 4 days doesn't look to good.


I have full stats for http://www.python.org/ with latency since July 2011
with 1 minute discretion.  I can export them into .cvs or somebody can help
me with JS part to draw them at http://pydotorg.appspot.com

 How does this correlate with pypi being moved to dinsdale?

 Perhaps not at all. The controller had a series of failures last summer
 also, but then fixed itself somehow. It could be overheating of some
 component (not necessarily the RAID controller), which could explain
 why it occurs randomly, and in increased frequency after putting more
 load on the machine.


It is because of this guy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDacjrSCeq4
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Questions about the code located on your Wiki

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.plwrote:

 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 17:34, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Michael Foord mfo...@python.org
 wrote:
 
  On 11/01/2012 15:45, Aahz wrote:
 
  On Wed, Jan 11, 2012, Michael Foord wrote:
 
  The wiki is freely editable by anyone, and as such any piece of code
  may have originally been entered by anyone - or even have multiple
  authors. I've looked around, but as far as I know we don't have any
  automatic licensing for code posted to the wiki.
 
  That means (unfortunately) that the code posted to the wiki is
  probably copyright whomever put it there. Small bits of code would
  probably not be copyrightable at all, but for larger sections of code
  the licensing position is unclear.
 
  I'm afraid I can't help you with your specific question, but I'm
  sending this to the web team so we can consider an automatic license
  requirement for future code posted to the wiki.
 
  Actually, I think that it's reasonable, given the context, for us to
 just
  slap a note that all wiki content is copyrighted by the PSF -- after
 all,
  that's what we do for the rest of the website content, and the wiki is
  really just part of the website.  We probably should add that the
  contents are licensed under Creative Commons and that probably needs a
  board decision about exactly which license we're using.
 
  I would definitely be in favour of automatic licensing of all content
  posted to the wiki, but I agree that it's not something the web team
 can do
  unilateraly.
 
 
  I'd unlicense all the content. If you need to share a licensed material -
  place it on your site and provide a link from the wiki.

 Why would you want to remove licenses from it? Don't you want it to be
 possible for people to use it?


Quite the opposite - I want information sharing on the Python Wiki be free
of the bullshit of implied rights.


 When there is no permission to use it given in the license, the
 default is you can't use it.


Right. The copyright law in most countries require permission _by default_
for public stuff, that why the stuff needs to be explicitly unlicensed -
http://unlicense.org/
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:38 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 
  Is the current setup documented anywhere at all?
  If you point to the document, we can remove the burden of providing
  necessary instructions from you and stop talking about overhead in
  abstract terms by providing real diff of the changes.

 The PSF systems documentation is here:

 https://psf.projecthut.com/trac/psfsystems/wiki

 It's far from complete, but all we have at the moment.
 If you want a login, let me know.


I don't want a login, but it seems like I should have one to access this
info. I'd prefer to have WIKI_VIEW permission for anonymous that I'll
automatically inherit without dedicated login.

 Common - you don't really think that the proposed redirection setup is
  complicated, do you? =) If some questions are left unanswered or the
  answers are vague - just repeat them, so we can clarify and remove the
  confusion.
 
  If you can show that adding new wikis to this setup is easy and
  doesn't require setting up new domains, I'll change my mind.
 
 
  If the real problem is in setting up new domains then we can discuss it
 in
  this thread or in different - as you wish. Don't you use DynDNS or
  alternative ?

 No. The python.org domain DNS records are controlled by the sysadmins.


Is the configuration process really that complicated? What is the DNS
server software? Is it in Python?

 As for showing you new setup and how to add new domains there, we need at
  least least old config available from somewhere. Do you have a link to
  repository?

 See the above wiki for details. Config files are kept in a bzr
 repo.


This information was open. Why it has gone closed all of the sudden?
http://wiki.python.org/moin/Admin?highlight=%28CategoryPythonWebsite%29

What's the benefit of switching Trac 0.11.2.1? It doesn't support Bazaar as
a repository backend out of the box, so the source browser is likely
useless. For reference to MoinMoin wiki from security sensitive Trac
tickets, there is always an InterWiki.

 The way I read your proposal, it only works if you put the
  wiki instances each under their own sub domain (with all the
  admin and maintenance overhead that goes with it).
 
 
  It is hard for me to estimate the overhead you are speaking about. It
 will
  be more productive to start with actual config files and description of
 the
  current setup. If it is Apache that is hard to maintain, we can switch to
  Nginx. If the overall config is too complicated there is Puppet and
 plenty
  of other admin helpers. Just describe this overhead problem.

 If you want to change the overall setup, please get in touch with the
 infrastructure team which is currently evaluating and planning to
 move the python.org systems to a whole new infrastructure.


It's cool and very interesting. Why not to make the process open and cover
the progress on Planet Python, and in PSF blog?
Will this infrastructure include OpenStack? How much Python will be
involved? What are monitoring tools?
I want to participate in public discussions too.


  If you're after better navigation, it may make more sense,
  changing the prefix from /moin/ to /python/, so that the
  URLs read:
 
  http://wiki.python.org/python/
  http://wiki.python.org/jython/
  http://wiki.python.org/psf/
 
  BTW, that is the current bus factor for wiki.python.org ?  If it is so
 hard
  to maintain, maybe you just need more people to help?

 What is a bus factor ?


The number of people on a project that should be hit by a bus to ruin it.
Bus factor 1 means that there is a single person (with valuable know-how)
without which the business will be unable to operate.

The point is - the resistance to make the configuration change is caused by
potential inability of current maintainer to support new setup. Thus
reducing bus factor to 0. So, the question about current bus factor is
really the question about how many people besides you are maintaining the
setup currently, and whom to can you delegate MoinMoin maintenance tasks
without dropping bus factor below some reasonable value (to say 2) by
opting yourself out?


 I'm not saying that the current setup is hard to maintain. I'm saying
 that your proposal appears not to provide a good ratio between added
 maintenance and added value.


Can you estimate the added value and added maintenance
in quantitative terms?

I already understand that added value is 0 for you personally, but what is
your estimation of a community service value? There is already at least +1
from active wiki community who is subscribed to this list, and I suspect
the actual percentage is higher than 20% (and maybe even higher than 50%,
but to prove that we should run a poll with MoinMoin accounts for a month).

So, if the chance of doing the change is added value/added maintenance,
we may either try to increase the subjective cost of added value (which I
am trying to do right now) or reduce added maintenance (which I will
likely do once I get access to 

Re: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 6:38 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 anatoly techtonik wrote:
  7 days have passed since last message, so I presume there are no
  more objections to do
  required configuration changes.  Of course, it will be more obvious if
  people could directly
  say they are o.k. with it.  Should we leave this open for another 7 days?

 I'm still -1 on the change. It only helps people typing the URL and you
 can get the same effect of saving those 5 letters by having
 wiki.python.org
 redirect such URLs to the /moin/ instance, without any complicated URL
 redirection setup. Browsers don't really care whether the URL is long
 or short and neither do mice :-)


I find these -1 reasons are funny. =) I can repeat the counter-arguments
that shorter URLs are better not only in address bars, but also for posting
links and navigating search results, but the point is:

- this configuration change is a one-time, standard, common, not-a-hack
solution for a traditional problem, that MoinMoin is designed to resolve,
and it is a small price of admin's time to make a small group of people,
who also care about Python wiki feel a little bit more happy

Common - you don't really think that the proposed redirection setup is
complicated, do you? =) If some questions are left unanswered or the
answers are vague - just repeat them, so we can clarify and remove the
confusion.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 2:11 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 anatoly techtonik wrote:
  On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 6:38 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 
  anatoly techtonik wrote:
  7 days have passed since last message, so I presume there are no
  more objections to do
  required configuration changes.  Of course, it will be more obvious if
  people could directly
  say they are o.k. with it.  Should we leave this open for another 7
 days?
 
  I'm still -1 on the change. It only helps people typing the URL and you
  can get the same effect of saving those 5 letters by having
  wiki.python.org
  redirect such URLs to the /moin/ instance, without any complicated URL
  redirection setup. Browsers don't really care whether the URL is long
  or short and neither do mice :-)
 
 
  I find these -1 reasons are funny. =) I can repeat the counter-arguments
  that shorter URLs are better not only in address bars, but also for
 posting
  links and navigating search results, but the point is:
 
  - this configuration change is a one-time, standard, common, not-a-hack
  solution for a traditional problem, that MoinMoin is designed to resolve,
  and it is a small price of admin's time to make a small group of people,
  who also care about Python wiki feel a little bit more happy

 I do care about the Python wikis being both an admin and user of
 them, and I feel that the maintenance and documentation overhead
 of your solution doesn't warrant the change.


Is the current setup documented anywhere at all?
If you point to the document, we can remove the burden of providing
necessary instructions from you and stop talking about overhead in
abstract terms by providing real diff of the changes.

 Common - you don't really think that the proposed redirection setup is
  complicated, do you? =) If some questions are left unanswered or the
  answers are vague - just repeat them, so we can clarify and remove the
  confusion.

 If you can show that adding new wikis to this setup is easy and
 doesn't require setting up new domains, I'll change my mind.


If the real problem is in setting up new domains then we can discuss it in
this thread or in different - as you wish. Don't you use DynDNS or
alternative ?

As for showing you new setup and how to add new domains there, we need at
least least old config available from somewhere. Do you have a link to
repository?


The way I read your proposal, it only works if you put the
 wiki instances each under their own sub domain (with all the
 admin and maintenance overhead that goes with it).


It is hard for me to estimate the overhead you are speaking about. It will
be more productive to start with actual config files and description of the
current setup. If it is Apache that is hard to maintain, we can switch to
Nginx. If the overall config is too complicated there is Puppet and plenty
of other admin helpers. Just describe this overhead problem.


 If you're after better navigation, it may make more sense,
 changing the prefix from /moin/ to /python/, so that the
 URLs read:

 http://wiki.python.org/python/
 http://wiki.python.org/jython/
 http://wiki.python.org/psf/



BTW, that is the current bus factor for wiki.python.org ?  If it is so hard
to maintain, maybe you just need more people to help?

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

7 days have passed since last message, so I presume there are no
more objections to do
required configuration changes.  Of course, it will be more obvious if
people could directly
say they are o.k. with it.  Should we leave this open for another 7 days?
-- 
anatoly t.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:02 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:24 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:

 Paul Boddie wrote:
  On Monday 19 December 2011 23:41:14 Martin v. Löwis wrote:
  That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
  -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
  So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
  the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
  wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.
 
  I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
  point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
  could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
  is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.
 
  I don't remember the farmconfig limitations, but I'm pretty sure you
 could get
  Apache to handle this and point /psf to a specific Wiki instance before
 any
  other instance is offered a chance to handle it.
 
  I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
  thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
  to work forever, since people are linking to them. Making them
  redirect would be an option if implementable.
 
  I'm also pretty sure that Anatoly mentioned URL stability. I think the
  simplification would be a reasonable enhancement.

 Why not reverse this and redirect from the wiki.python.org/PageName
 to wiki.python.org/moin/PageName for all page names that don't
 start with (moin/|psf/|jython/) ?


 To me this proposal is like - 'Why have short URLs by default if we can
 have a long ones?'
 And I confirm that existing URLs will work forever and will redirect to
 new shorter default page
 names.

 That way you get your shortened URLs, but don't have to change the
 way MoinMoin is configured or play with domain names and new
 Apache virtual server setups.


 If I was a lazy admin, I'd love this suggestion, but can't agree as a
 user. If Apache is bothersome to maintain - we can change it to Nginx to
 make the application more portable.

 If you're concerned about positive /moin/ advertisement effect, then from
 a perspective of a Python web developer/admin, the /moin/ prefix looks
 exactly like an anti-ad. Why the heck is this prefix doing here if there
 is already a wiki.* domain namespace? Does MoinMoin support domain names
 mapping? Is it a software that is so hard to customize?

 So, we remove MoinMoin anti-ad, make wiki URLs simple for users and
 preserve existing links from breaking. It is a fantastic deal for the small
 cost of Apache reconfiguration. If you like the pitch, just say O key and
 we'll close it. =)
  --
 anatoly t.

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[pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski sh...@sheep.art.plwrote:

  On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
 
  Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
   On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
  
   Paul Boddie wrote:
   On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 s...@pobox.com wrote:
   anatoly And it could be a little easier to type
   wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
   anatoly could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
  
   There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
   Jython wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector
 page
   briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
   Python wiki.
  
   Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
 makes
   sense to eliminate the /moin part, and I guess that this was
 changed.
   I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
 so I'm
   sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
  
   The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
   several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
  
* Python wiki
* Jython  wiki
* PSF wiki
  
   and perhaps more.
  
   That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
   exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
 make
   the change.
 
  Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those exceptions ?

 It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
 configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
 respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
 wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
 directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
 have a redirect from the old /moin url.


If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
migration:

 * wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
knowledge base
 * wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
 * wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
 * wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to  wiki.jython.org/\1
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Re: [pydotorg-www] PyPI is offline

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:24 AM, Richard Jones rich...@python.org wrote:
 On 9 November 2011 06:14, Brian Curtin brian.cur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 13:09, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://www.isup.me/pypi.python.org

 Works for me, and that page agrees: It's just you.
 http://pypi.python.org is up.

 Thanks for the report. Going by the times in the email headers
 (2011-11-08 20:00 to 20:09 CET) I've looked through the logs and there
 was a 6 minute period during which the request handling rate tapered
 right off. Not sure what the cause could have been at this time.
 There's a ton of what appear to be delayed requests finishing up
 around that time, which I've seen before. Interleaved with the
 requests timestamped above are some with timestamps of 5-10 minutes
 earlier from a variety of clients. I've discussed this with Martin
 before but with no real conclusion.

What is the configuration of this server? I mean all components
including proxies, caches and servers participating in handling
requests?
--
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Re: [pydotorg-www] PythonLabs website

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote:
 On Oct 05, 2011, at 10:27 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

The dark age of Python Labs had started.

 Go read the page.  It will banish all the darkness. :)

http://pythonlabs.com/ is hidden in the shadow of www. =)
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[pydotorg-www] Secure wiki login

[anatoly techtonik]

Can we protect login to wiki with HTTPS?
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[pydotorg-www] Can't rename Wiki page

[anatoly techtonik]

I'm trying to rename AptLogging to Logging, but wiki says the page
already exists even if there is no such page.
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[pydotorg-www] VM side (Was: State of the infrastructure project)

[anatoly techtonik]

About VM side.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Noah Kantrowitz n...@coderanger.net wrote:

 On the VM side, there is still an open question about who will be managing 
 things. Some want to see a full-time sysadmin(s) retained by the PSF to 
 manage and maintain the individual VMs, but I don't think there is any 
 agreement yet on that front. For now I am running under the assumption that 
 we will be managing these systems via Chef on a volunteer basis.

First, can you post a link to this infrastructure project? I hope it's
not a leak, and I can read somewhere a problem description for VM
side. Right now I am trying Bcfg2 for configuration management and so
far guys were very responsive to answer questions and fix things. ISTM
that Python based software has better chances to survive and receive
needed tweaks (although it won't hurt to get some Ruby experience to
make Python better).

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Re: [pydotorg-www] Errors when attempting to undo wiki spam

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Brian Curtin brian.cur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:52, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Michael Foord mfo...@python.org wrote:
  On 05/07/2011 18:23, s...@pobox.com wrote:
 
  I sent this out yesterday but saw no response.  Maybe the pydotorg list
  is
  now defunct?  Trying pydotorg-www instead.
 
  pydotorg-www is the correct list for website issues. pydotorg is only
  for
  private things like ssh keys and also where job postings and Planet
  Python
  requests go. I can't help you with this though. :-(

 Instead of explaining that to everybody, it would be better to just
 rename pydotorg to pydotorg-internals.

 Please don't do this.

Well, apparently, people are too attached to the previous name or..
..don't want to increase traffic for the pydotorg sake or..
..feel uncomfortable with the change or..
..afraid of changes at all or..
..afraid that somebody will post SSH key to public pydotorg (OMG).

Or don't care about people like me so much that don't even dare to
explain anything (or summarize their previous arguments FWIW).
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Re: [pydotorg-www] planet.python.org resources are 404

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Michael Foord mfo...@python.org wrote:
 On 03/07/2011 15:17, anatoly techtonik wrote:

 http://planet.python.org/ has missing style and JS resources.

 Not visibly, can you be more specific?

Get Chrome
Open http://planet.python.org/
Press Ctrl-Shift-J (Tools-JavaScript Console)

You should see the lines:
iotbs2-key-directors-load.jsFailed to load resource: the server
responded with a status of 404 (Not Found)
iotbs2-directors.jsFailed to load resource: the server responded with
a status of 404 (Not Found)
iotbs2-core.jsFailed to load resource: the server responded with a
status of 404 (Not Found)
defaultfonts.cssFailed to load resource: the server responded with a
status of 404 (Not Found)
test-graph2.pngFailed to load resource

You may need to refresh page. Firefox may be able to output the same info.


 Which version of planet is it, BTW?

 Not sure, sorry. Not very recent probably...

And who can check and upgrade?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] sync www and pycon.org

[anatoly techtonik]

Speaking about www.pycon.org, where is the archive of materials from
the previous conferences? There were some invaluable talks and now I
can't find any references.
--
anatoly t.



On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Carl Karsten c...@personnelware.com wrote:
 given nothing is at pycon.org:80, it would be nice if it hit www.pycon.org

 carl@dc10:~$ host pycon.org
 pycon.org has address 66.35.62.89

 carl@dc10:~$ host www.pycon.org
 www.pycon.org has address 192.67.63.140


 --
 Carl K
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