Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
At first, I found Pygame perfect for the games I wanted to create. However, as time went on I began to realize that is was only good for VERY simple games. Even simple things such as rotating an image on a specified axis became convoluted and overly-complicated. I would highly reccommend that the Pygame team take a few pointers from the guy that developed Pysgear. Pygame is still low-level in many areas. Pygame is not for making particular types of games. It's for making game engines. Pygsear is just a wrapper for Pygame. Essentially you're using a game engine someone else wrote. Pygame will get too convoluted if they add engine-specific code to it -- what use is there for rotating a 2d image around an axis if you're using pygame with PyOpenGL, for example? HTH, -Luke
pygame is low level Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Caleb Mahase wrote: However, as time went on I began to realize that is was only good for VERY simple games. Even simple things such as rotating an image on a specified axis became convoluted and overly-complicated. I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to accomplish - could you explain further? I would highly reccommend that the Pygame team take a few pointers from the guy that developed Pysgear. Pygame is still low-level in many areas. Are you referring to Pygsear? http://www.nongnu.org/pygsear/ I'm not familiar with it, but it looks to me to be a thin layer over PyGame, including a UI implementation. What pointers would be useful to take away from Pygsear? I agree that PyGame is somewhat low level in places, in the sense that it isn't a finished game engine. When I have written games using PyGame, I wrote some non-game-specific code, including UI engine, a game state system, and many other systems necessary to make a complete game, but not designed specifically for the game I'm working on. The good news is that the code I've written is reusable. The bad news is that you might not want to write it the first time. And you don't have to - as you mentioned, Pygsear exists. Also PGU and OcempGUI, and there are a lot of other libraries out there that can address specific requirements. I think the variety of choices, while overwhelming, is good. I would resist efforts to roll a single UI engine into PyGame, but I would appreciate seeing an organized page on the pygame.org site that would collect these libraries for easier browsing. While saying that PyGame is low-level in places, I find it frustratingly high-level in other places. Here are a few platform-specific things I'd like to be able to do easily from a PyGame app: - open a window fullscreen on a second monitor on Windows - open a window as a child of a Windows window referred by HWND - retrieve the Windows HWND for my display window - add menu items to the Macintosh menu and react to them At some point when I get time to work on the projects that use these features, I'll explore the platform-specific code necessary to accomplish them, and if it means recompiling a custom version of PyGame to expose these specific, low-level, pieces of functionality, that's OK. But I'd rather be spending my time higher up, closer to the game code; I'd rather that PyGame erred on the side of being too low-level than too high-level. And I find that overall, it tends to do a good job at that. -Dave LeCompte
Re: pygame is low level Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Dave, Regarding the lack of a page on the pygame website that collects these resources together - I'd suggest adding a wiki page that you feel does a good job of that :) About pygame being low level, I agree, that's how I like it too! But the page you suggested above would maybe help people find some of those wrappers more easily. One thing I might do on my part (the website code itself) is add more modern tagging of projects or something sometime. That way more categories could be linked to, etc... Any thoughts? Regarding more pygame features - I think all of the things you asked would require some work in c-land. If you want it soon, you'd probably be the best person to implement it. Thanks! Phil Dave LeCompte (really) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Caleb Mahase wrote: However, as time went on I began to realize that is was only good for VERY simple games. Even simple things such as rotating an image on a specified axis became convoluted and overly-complicated. I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to accomplish - could you explain further? I would highly reccommend that the Pygame team take a few pointers from the guy that developed Pysgear. Pygame is still low-level in many areas. Are you referring to Pygsear? http://www.nongnu.org/pygsear/ I'm not familiar with it, but it looks to me to be a thin layer over PyGame, including a UI implementation. What pointers would be useful to take away from Pygsear? I agree that PyGame is somewhat low level in places, in the sense that it isn't a finished game engine. When I have written games using PyGame, I wrote some non-game-specific code, including UI engine, a game state system, and many other systems necessary to make a complete game, but not designed specifically for the game I'm working on. The good news is that the code I've written is reusable. The bad news is that you might not want to write it the first time. And you don't have to - as you mentioned, Pygsear exists. Also PGU and OcempGUI, and there are a lot of other libraries out there that can address specific requirements. I think the variety of choices, while overwhelming, is good. I would resist efforts to roll a single UI engine into PyGame, but I would appreciate seeing an organized page on the pygame.org site that would collect these libraries for easier browsing. While saying that PyGame is low-level in places, I find it frustratingly high-level in other places. Here are a few platform-specific things I'd like to be able to do easily from a PyGame app: - open a window fullscreen on a second monitor on Windows - open a window as a child of a Windows window referred by HWND - retrieve the Windows HWND for my display window - add menu items to the Macintosh menu and react to them At some point when I get time to work on the projects that use these features, I'll explore the platform-specific code necessary to accomplish them, and if it means recompiling a custom version of PyGame to expose these specific, low-level, pieces of functionality, that's OK. But I'd rather be spending my time higher up, closer to the game code; I'd rather that PyGame erred on the side of being too low-level than too high-level. And I find that overall, it tends to do a good job at that. -Dave LeCompte - Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
Re: pygame is low level Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Phil Hassey wrote: Regarding more pygame features - I think all of the things you asked would require some work in c-land. If you want it soon, you'd probably be the best person to implement it. Oh, to be clear, that was my expectation all along - these were things that most people (so far nobody) has had a need for, and none of them (except maybe the Mac Menu thing) were all that involved, so I'm not afraid of figuring them out, I just don't anticipate working on them right away, because making wizards cast fireballs is so much more satisfying than monkeying around with HWNDs. Also, I've got other distractions, including Heroes, Supreme Commander, and Galcon. -Dave LeCompte
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Sorry for throwing in that big flaming pile of dung into your pretty mailinglist, as in apologies for all the boring replies people posted in a response. As for why I did not compile it myself it's because I have no need for it. I filed this complained exclusively due to my great compassion for the newcomer to python. You know the one, fresh 2.5 install straight off the website, an optimistic twinkle in her eyes to try out this new awesome programming language to make games with pygame only to find out pygame doesn't work with python and goes off to become a shepard instead. I already supplied several such newcomers with instructions ala uninstall python 2.5 and install python 2.4 and that just ain't cool you guys. So thanks for compiling it, not for my sake, but for those out there that are, unlike me, nice people. Now maybe in a few days - months in pygame-terms - it will actually appear on the site. great job guys! --- Sami Hangaslammi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://opioid-interactive.com/~shang/python-win32/pygame-1.7.1release.win32-py2.5.exe I did a quick test and everything seemed to work fine, but haven't tested it throughly, as I too am still mainly using Python 2.4. -- Sami Hangaslammi 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Jer Juke wrote: Sorry for throwing in that big flaming pile of dung into your pretty mailinglist, as in apologies for all the boring replies people posted in a response. As for why I did not compile it myself it's because I have no need for it. I filed this complained exclusively due to my great compassion for the newcomer to python. You know the one, fresh 2.5 install straight off the website, an optimistic twinkle in her eyes to try out this new awesome programming language to make games with pygame only to find out pygame doesn't work with python and goes off to become a shepard instead. I already supplied several such newcomers with instructions ala uninstall python 2.5 and install python 2.4 and that just ain't cool you guys. So thanks for compiling it, not for my sake, but for those out there that are, unlike me, nice people. Now maybe in a few days - months in pygame-terms - it will actually appear on the site. *sigh*. great job guys! --- Sami Hangaslammi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://opioid-interactive.com/~shang/python-win32/pygame-1.7.1release.win32-py2.5.exe I did a quick test and everything seemed to work fine, but haven't tested it throughly, as I too am still mainly using Python 2.4. -- Sami Hangaslammi 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Hey, I've downloaded that binary and posted it to the pygame website under the downloads page. http://www.pygame.org/download.shtml Later, Phil Luke Paireepinart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jer Juke wrote: Sorry for throwing in that big flaming pile of dung into your pretty mailinglist, as in apologies for all the boring replies people posted in a response. As for why I did not compile it myself it's because I have no need for it. I filed this complained exclusively due to my great compassion for the newcomer to python. You know the one, fresh 2.5 install straight off the website, an optimistic twinkle in her eyes to try out this new awesome programming language to make games with pygame only to find out pygame doesn't work with python and goes off to become a shepard instead. I already supplied several such newcomers with instructions ala uninstall python 2.5 and install python 2.4 and that just ain't cool you guys. So thanks for compiling it, not for my sake, but for those out there that are, unlike me, nice people. Now maybe in a few days - months in pygame-terms - it will actually appear on the site. *sigh*. great job guys! --- Sami Hangaslammi wrote: http://opioid-interactive.com/~shang/python-win32/pygame-1.7.1release.win32-py2.5.exe I did a quick test and everything seemed to work fine, but haven't tested it throughly, as I too am still mainly using Python 2.4. -- Sami Hangaslammi 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news - The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/19/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for throwing in that big flaming pile of dung into your pretty mailinglist, as in apologies for all the boring replies people posted in a response. I'm sorry we bored you. As for why I did not compile it myself it's because I have no need for it. Ah... so you recognized a need in the standard game library, and acknowledged it's value to other people... next you were fully capable of taking a step to help others out, and you chose not to help or be productive because you had no personal need for it? well I've got no problem for that. I never expected anybody to act any different. Cheers to Sami and Phil for being different sort of people. I filed this complained exclusively due to my great compassion for the newcomer to python. Yes, now that you've said this, I've been looking back at your original post, and your compassion comes through quite clearly. I don't know why I missed it before So thanks for compiling it, not for my sake I'm glad you recognize that fact
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Hey Numeric users, If you want a Numeric 24.2 build for Python 2.5 and Win32, go to http://biopython.org/wiki/Download and look for the Numeric-24.2.win32-py2.5.exe link. I just tested this build with the Surfarray Demo and it worked. (René D.'s http://rene.f0o.com/~rene/stuff/Numeric-24.2.win32-py2.5.exe is not there anymore.) Happy surfarraying, Jason M. --- Phil Hassey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I've downloaded that binary and posted it to the pygame website under the downloads page. http://www.pygame.org/download.shtml Later, Phil Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
http://opioid-interactive.com/~shang/python-win32/pygame-1.7.1release.win32-py2.5.exe I did a quick test and everything seemed to work fine, but haven't tested it throughly, as I too am still mainly using Python 2.4. -- Sami Hangaslammi On 2/17/07, Phil Hassey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sami, Thanks lots for your help. I get an email or so every week asking when they will be available (since I maintain the website.) Can you post links to the binaries here? I'm not using python 2.5 yet - but if a few other people who are could download them and test 'em out quick and say they work just fine, I'll post them to the website and add a news message about that. Thanks! Phil Sami Hangaslammi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've compiled pygame-1.7.1 (as well as Numeric-24.2 for surfarray) for Python2.5-win32 and would be happy to contribute the installer to the pygame site if there's need. I also tried compiling pygame-1.8 a couple of weeks back, but it seemed to have a lot of new dependencies for headers and libs that I couldn't find outright. -- Sami Hangaslammi Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Idiotic flame-bait troll sharing his pain at the world caused by his obvious social and professional inadequacies not-withstanding... Having a pygame-1.7.1 python2.5-win32 installer posted on the pygame.org download page would be nice. I would appreciate the kindness of those involved in sharing the product of their work to save me time energy. So could Sami's installer go up there? On 2/15/07, Sami Hangaslammi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I've compiled pygame-1.7.1 (as well as Numeric-24.2 for surfarray) for Python2.5-win32 and would be happy to contribute the installer to the pygame site if there's need. I also tried compiling pygame-1.8 a couple of weeks back, but it seemed to have a lot of new dependencies for headers and libs that I couldn't find outright. -- Sami Hangaslammi
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Excuse me for hijacking this thread and asking, but how hard is it to compile programs in Windows? 'Cause in Linux you just type: ./ configure make make install and you're set to go after you settle dependency problems, which I found overwhelmingly easy the last time I tried it in PCLinuxOS. And since you compile everything in Gentoo Linux anyway, it was as easy as typing: emerge pygame and dependencies and everything were grabbed for me. so what do Windows users go through to compile stuff? I don't think it would be worth complaining this much about it...
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Charles Joseph Christie II wrote: Excuse me for hijacking this thread and asking, but how hard is it to compile programs in Windows? 'Cause in Linux you just type: ./ configure make make install and you're set to go after you settle dependency problems, which I found overwhelmingly easy the last time I tried it in PCLinuxOS. And since you compile everything in Gentoo Linux anyway, it was as easy as typing: emerge pygame and dependencies and everything were grabbed for me. so what do Windows users go through to compile stuff? I don't think it would be worth complaining this much about it... I'm pretty sure you need to compile them with the same compiler that the Python interpreter was compiled with. On Linux this is gcc or g++ or whatever, so it's no problem. On Windows, I think they used VS 6 for 2.3, .NET 2003 for 2.4 and .NET 2005 for 2.5. Or something like that. Anyway, so that's the first obstacle - getting a copy of the compiler. Then, there's no Yum or Apt or anything on Windows, so you have to browse the internets and get all the dependencies. Also there's no makefile so you'd have to know how to set up the compiler. If you had the right compiler it probably would take a couple of hours if you hadn't compiled a python package before. That's just my speculation and I really don't know that much about it. -Luke
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Jer, Don't try hide your feelings by sugarcoating things. Please tell us what you really think about Pygame... ; ) Jim On Feb 15, 2007, at 3:44 AM, Jer Juke wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. __ __ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396546091
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/15/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [an angry diatribe] I believe the standard response to the problem you describe is to say something like, if it's important to you, feel free to help us out and do some work to make it happen. But with the attitude you put on display here, I personally wouldn't ask for your help on any project I was involved in (but I can't speak for the pygame maintainers; perhaps they're more gracious than I am). -- // jack // http://www.nuthole.com
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/15/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. You could've instead wrote a much shorter message about the fact that you compiled some version of pygame for python 2.5 on the platform you care about and included a link to where it could be obtained from. Would've been a lot more productive than a l*ng f*ck*ng r*nt about... not much. -bob
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Jer Juke wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. i always thought pySDL would be the best name, and i guess most people would think the same, but check this out http://pysdl.sourceforge.net i guess thats the main reason for choosing pygame over pySDL as name. I also think it would be really useful for the developers if you point the reasons why 'this abhorrent library is an atrocity' so that they can consider fixing/improving those areas of the library. Just try to be more constructive. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. try to do it yourself or ask politely for someone to do it. it is usually more effective. Are you talking about windows? enrike
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Jer Juke wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. And WxPython is just a goddamn WxWindows wrapper... same with TkInter, same with pyGTK, pyKDE, PyQt, etc. And that's just gui frameworks. The long and short of it is: GUI toolkits need to be as fast as possible, because they just display data that is calculated elsewhere, and you want as much cpu power as possible to be in the calculations. Therefore, any serious one would be a python binding to a C++ module. it's not a disadvantage that it's a wrapper. If it were written in pure python it would be much more complicated, not to mention all of the 'reinventing the wheel' that would go on. SDL is a good library for low-level access. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. Ah, yes, let's rename it back to what it was originally named. Brilliant solution. Pygame is the continuation of pySDL, with extra features that make it not an exact wrapper of SDL, so the name pySDL is less accurate. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. Binary installs are very different than a lack of support. The newest version of pygame works on YOUR PLATFORM almost definitely, although i can't be sure because I don't know WHAT PLATFORM you have. Like Bob says, STFU and go compile it yourself if you want it so badly. Same with lots of other open source projects, when pygame's not a development version it will have binaries. But that's provided as a service to you; it's not requisite from the authors' point of view. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. And which developers are we talking about that need binaries in order to use pygame? Any hands? No? hmm, curious. So if you're too inept to make the source work for you, use the 1.7.1 version with python 2.4. It's forward compatible, so don't worry. Anyone who manages to install 1.8 will be able to run your programs. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? ... I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. I can hardly imagine what terrible experience must've befallen you to make you this adamant about the issue. Did you try to compile it but you couldn't get it to work? Cry more, noob. Your comments are not productive. You lose 5 internets. To be completely honest, I agree with you, that it'd be nice if someone took the time to compile the binaries. But your complete and utter lack of etiquette, tact, or common sense is staggering. Did you expect everyone to rally behind you and have a big renaming and compiling effort initiated? Our perception of your intelligence and our opinion of the merit of your argument increase in direct proportion to how well you can hide the fact that you're irritated, and how well you perform that basic, everyday task of not placing expletives throughout your writing or speech. The inverse is also true. Therefore, in both categories, your score is lackluster. hope that helps, -Luke
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Bob Ippolito wrote: On 2/15/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. You could've instead wrote a much shorter message about the fact that you compiled some version of pygame for python 2.5 on the platform you care about and included a link to where it could be obtained from. Would've been a lot more productive than a l*ng f*ck*ng r*nt about... not much. so why nobody did it yet? He is talking about windows and windows users dont usually compile much, it would be very useful for them to have a 2.5 installer. I am not running 2.5 on my windows machine yet otherwise i would do it myself. enrike
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
altern wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: On 2/15/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. You could've instead wrote a much shorter message about the fact that you compiled some version of pygame for python 2.5 on the platform you care about and included a link to where it could be obtained from. Would've been a lot more productive than a l*ng f*ck*ng r*nt about... not much. so why nobody did it yet? He is talking about windows and windows users dont usually compile much, it would be very useful for them to have a 2.5 installer. I am not running 2.5 on my windows machine yet otherwise i would do it myself. enrike I believe you'd also need .NET 2003 or something. Nobody's done it yet for 1.8 because it's not a finalized version. No one's done it for 1.7 because everyone's expecting 1.8 to come out. Honestly why go through the trouble unless you actually have a need for some of the new functionality they added in 1.8? (although I guess it would be nice to use 2.5 with pygame. I don't know. I just use 2.4 and pygame 1.7.1 cause I don't want to go through the trouble to update until they have a final release of 1.8.)
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Luke Paireepinart wrote: altern wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: On 2/15/07, Jer Juke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, you heard me. Normally I wouldn't feel any need to pick out some random library and state how awful I think it is. But this is not some random library. It is the standard game library for a most beautiful language known far and wide for it's power and easy of use, both when it comes to the language itself and it's libraries. The fact that Python is generally blessed with truly magnificent libraries everywhere is what makes Pygame stand so out. Pygame is in absolutely no way magnificent or even slightly pythonic. It's just a goddamn SDL wrapper. Using the name Pygame for this abhorrent library is an atrocity. It should be called PySDL, and make it more obvious to the python community that Pygame is yet to be properly created. But that's not the worst part. PySDL (what you all call Pygame) is actually a very useful library. It does what it does QUITE WELL! It's perfect for creating higher level libraries. BUT PYGAME DOESN'T EVEN MANAGE TO BE PYGAME. Yes, I am talking about the fact that even half a year after the official Python 2.5 came out, Pygame still does not EXIST FOR THIS PLATFORM. I can sympathize with taking a month to compile some new binaries. Developers do after all have other things to do. Even a couple of months is acceptable. But SERIOUSLY, a team of people that maintain THE STANDARD F*CKING GAME PACKAGE USED BY A GAZILLION OTHER PYTHON PROJECTS but can't make one required update in the time-span of ONE HALF YEAR is a disgrace. No one cares if you are in the process of adding all sorts of awesome new crap to Pygame. Do you guys even have any idea how many python modules use Pygame for one reason or another? Until you actually have Pygame 1.8, COMPILE A GODDAMN 2.5 VERSION FOR THE OLD PYGAME!! How about some honesty? How about replacing we needed an extra few weeks on the pygame site with we are not able to adequately maintain this package. new maintainers needed? I know whoever maintains pygame aren't paid. They don't owe anyone anything. But in my opinion, these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. You could've instead wrote a much shorter message about the fact that you compiled some version of pygame for python 2.5 on the platform you care about and included a link to where it could be obtained from. Would've been a lot more productive than a l*ng f*ck*ng r*nt about... not much. so why nobody did it yet? He is talking about windows and windows users dont usually compile much, it would be very useful for them to have a 2.5 installer. I am not running 2.5 on my windows machine yet otherwise i would do it myself. enrike I believe you'd also need .NET 2003 or something. Nobody's done it yet for 1.8 because it's not a finalized version. No one's done it for 1.7 because everyone's expecting 1.8 to come out. Honestly why go through the trouble unless you actually have a need for some of the new functionality they added in 1.8? (although I guess it would be nice to use 2.5 with pygame. I don't know. I just use 2.4 and pygame 1.7.1 cause I don't want to go through the trouble to update until they have a final release of 1.8.) what about pygame 1.7.1 windows installer for python 2.5? i bet this is what he means. enrike
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/15/07, Bob Ippolito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. I'd beg to differ. Pygame 1.7 had a lot of dependencies which was a real pain in the backside to compile. Pango and Cairo pops up to mind, but these are only a few. I think I struggled for about 5 straight hours before throwing the Gnome/GTK/whatever-deps out and finally fallbacked to an earlier binary version. -- - Rikard.
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
FWIW, I've compiled pygame-1.7.1 (as well as Numeric-24.2 for surfarray) for Python2.5-win32 and would be happy to contribute the installer to the pygame site if there's need. I also tried compiling pygame-1.8 a couple of weeks back, but it seemed to have a lot of new dependencies for headers and libs that I couldn't find outright. -- Sami Hangaslammi
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
Jer Juke wrote: Yeah, you heard me (snip) ...these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. You're not impressing anybody with your vicious attack on people who maintain and support Pygame. You're doing them a great disservice, and ensuring YOU will never receive any support from people who read this mailing list. --Kamilche
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/15/07, Kamilche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jer Juke wrote: Yeah, you heard me (snip) ...these people are a disgrace and a detriment to python game development efforts on the whole. You're not impressing anybody with your vicious attack on people who maintain and support Pygame. You're doing them a great disservice, and ensuring YOU will never receive any support from people who read this mailing list. --Kamilche Agreed. If a binary is not available, compile it, or ask around to see if anybody had a compiled version. The pygame devels have been doing a great job and without them, there wouldn't be any version of pygame. Be thankful for what you have, and be patient, or if you want to see the new version come out earlier, feel free to help them out, I'm sure they can always use help. Also, as there is the saying, You attract more flies with honey, not with vinegar. Think about it. -spot
Re: [pygame] pygame is a disgrace
On 2/15/07, Rikard Bosnjakovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/15/07, Bob Ippolito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it would've taken a lot less time to compile some version (any version) of pygame for Python 2.5 than to write this message. I'd beg to differ. Pygame 1.7 had a lot of dependencies which was a real pain in the backside to compile. Pango and Cairo pops up to mind, but these are only a few. I think I struggled for about 5 straight hours before throwing the Gnome/GTK/whatever-deps out and finally fallbacked to an earlier binary version. I'm pretty sure that neither Pango or Cairo are direct dependencies of pygame. The majority of the libraries you need are the SDL ones, which you can get precompiled on every platform that pygame supports. On top of those you need couple other libraries like libpng, but you can get those precompiled as well. I could imagine that it would be a royal pain in the ass if you were compiling EVERYTHING from scratch on a *nix platform... but don't do that. -bob
