Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1
I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's important for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter 2019 with a governance plan. > On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit : >> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python >> Governance PEPs. >> >> Some still relevant links: >> >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance >> Proposal Overview >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey >> >> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still. >> >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model >> (I'm claiming this PEP) >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council >> Governance Model >> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model >> >> I have some questions: >> >> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with >> governance PEPs? > > As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early. > > Regards > > Antoine. > ___ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1
Could the authors of those PEPs please at least publish a rough outline of what their model is all about ? It doesn't help if we set a deadline only to find that we should have written up a competing PEP shortly before the deadline passes. The only text we have at this point is PEP 8013: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ On 26.09.2018 10:16, Carol Willing wrote: > I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's > important for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter > 2019 with a governance plan. > >> On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> >> >> Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit : >>> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python >>> Governance PEPs. >>> >>> Some still relevant links: >>> >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance >>> Proposal Overview >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey >>> >>> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still. >>> >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model >>> (I'm claiming this PEP) >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council >>> Governance Model >>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model >>> >>> I have some questions: >>> >>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with >>> governance PEPs? >> >> As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early. >> >> Regards >> >> Antoine. >> ___ >> python-committers mailing list >> python-committers@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > > ___ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 26 2018) >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] [PEP 8013] The External Council Governance Model
Thanks, Steve, for writing this up: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ A couple of comments: I like the council model, but don't understand why the core developers should be stripped from any decision powers. External people will not have the institutional knowledge core developers have, know why past decisions were reached and thus cannot use this knowledge to base the new decisions on. To give you an example: As much as I admire people such as Larry Wall for designing popular programming languages, I would not want to see Python take a Perl'ish approach to language design. Additionally, we'd have to transfer knowledge of how work is done on the council for every new member. I've seen how long this takes on the PSF and EPS boards. It effectively causes the council to not be fully operable for a couple of months at least. This will not happen with core developers as council members. Could you give a reason why the council members should be external ? Another point I don't understand is why we should drop the BDFL- Delegate system. This has proven to work well. Perhaps PEP 8011 is a better approach, but it's not available yet, so I'm focusing on your PEP for now. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 26 2018) >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
Hi, On 25/09/18 20:30, Yury Selivanov wrote: What's the current plan for what version of Python we release after 3.9? [snip] For the record, we account for the following version tests when analysing code (on lgtm.com): sys.version == "3" sys.version_info > (3,) sys.version_info[0] == 3 sys.version_info[:2] >= (3,0) sys.hexversion > 0x0300 Of these forms, `sys.version[0] == "3"` and `sys.version_info[0] == 3` will be broken by changing the major version to 4. Personally, I prefer 3.10 to 4.0 unless there is a significant language change involved. Cheers, Mark. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
For the record, Guido prefer 3.10 to 4.0, before he retired BDFL. https://python.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/116503-core/subject/rhel/near/124934902 Regards, -- INADA Naoki ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
On 9/25/18 9:30 PM, Yury Selivanov wrote: What's the current plan for what version of Python we release after 3.9? The reason I'm asking this is because I frequently need to refer to *that version* of Python in the documentation, especially when I'm deprecating APIs or behavior. Right now I'm saying "Python 4.0" implying that 4.0 will be released right after 3.9. I've heard multiple opinions on this subject. One of them is that we should release 4.0 when we have a major new change, like removal of the GIL or introduction of a JIT compiler. On the other hand, we have no estimate when we have such a change. We also don't want Python 4.0 to be backwards incompatible with Python 3.0 (at least not at the scale of 2 vs 3). So to me, it seems logical that we simply release Python 4.0 after Python 3.9. After all, after 3.9 Python will be drastically different from 3.0 and from 2.7. It sounds better. :) Finally, I'm not sure we need a new governance in place to make this decision or maybe we can make it now. That's why I'm posting this to python-committers to see if core devs already have a consensus on this. Yury As someone who's still fighting every day to make people switch from "python2" (or "python") to "python3", I'd be very, very happy if I didn't have to start telling them to use "python4" instead now. Or explaining that the way to launch Python 4 is "python3". Same story with Python 2020 instead of Python 4. (And unfortunately, a "py" launcher is not an answer here -- it won't be very useful unless it is everywhere, and that will take years in the best case.) I'd much, much rather explain that `sys.version[2]` is not correct, and solve the "python310" < "python39" problem. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 at 15:58, Victor Stinner wrote: > Serhiy: > > And changing the major version number itself is significant breaking > change. From the name of the executable (python3 vs python4) hardcoded in > Python > > IMHO It's time to discuss again modifying the "python" program to always > point to the latest Python version. > > What is the status of Brett's UNIX Python launcher "py" by the way? > You can see the current TODO list at https://crates.io/crates/python-launcher . Basically I need to implement "--help" and "--list" to fill in the last two low-hanging fruit features, but at long as you don't need to customize the search mechanism then it's already working. And BTW it's already compatible with either 3.10 or 4.0. :) ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 12:28 PM Brett Cannon wrote: [..] >> What is the status of Brett's UNIX Python launcher "py" by the way? > > > You can see the current TODO list at https://crates.io/crates/python-launcher > . Basically I need to implement "--help" and "--list" to fill in the last two > low-hanging fruit features, but at long as you don't need to customize the > search mechanism then it's already working. And BTW it's already compatible > with either 3.10 or 4.0. :) Looks like it's possible to either request a specific version (e.g. 3.6), or a major version (e.g. any Python 3). Is it possible to request "3.6 or greater (be it Python 3.10 or Python 4.0+)"? Yury ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 18:15, Yury Selivanov wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 12:28 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > [..] > >> What is the status of Brett's UNIX Python launcher "py" by the way? > > > > > > You can see the current TODO list at > > https://crates.io/crates/python-launcher . Basically I need to implement > > "--help" and "--list" to fill in the last two low-hanging fruit features, > > but at long as you don't need to customize the search mechanism then it's > > already working. And BTW it's already compatible with either 3.10 or 4.0. :) > > Looks like it's possible to either request a specific version (e.g. > 3.6), or a major version (e.g. any Python 3). Is it possible to > request "3.6 or greater (be it Python 3.10 or Python 4.0+)"? That's not possible for the Windows launcher. As the idea is to have a uniform interface for the Windows and Unix launchers, I'd assume that this would need to be a feature request for both the Windows and Unix launchers. (It's a reasonable-seeming idea, but I don't know how useful it would be in practice - can you give some examples of use cases?) Paul ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] Python 4.0 or Python 3.10?
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:25 PM Paul Moore wrote: [..] > but I don't know how > useful it would be in practice - can you give some examples of use > cases?) It's hard to give a real life example as "py" doesn't support this, but I can imagine the following scenario: if I have a script that uses some new 3.6 feature I could probably run it from other scripts with 'py --min=3.6 myscript.py'. That way I wouldn't need to write more code or use other tools to check if the target system has a Python 3.6+ interpreter. Yury ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1
Really sorry folks, but I also would like to request an extension, by one week to Oct 8. It's not because I've been slacking; I've started a five-page document (only Barry has seen it), but I still need his help before it can be ready for the public. In addition, I'm facing personal health issue. I'll be unable to work on the proposal for the next few days. I hope this will be ok with you all. Sorry again for delaying this process. Although we should still be good to "vote" on proposals by Mid November. I still think it would be good for that PEP 8001 to be ready sooner, so we all have good understanding of how this all will go down. Thanks. ᐧ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1
On Sep 26, 2018, at 19:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote: > > Really sorry folks, but I also would like to request an extension, by one > week to Oct 8. > It's not because I've been slacking; I've started a five-page document (only > Barry has seen it), but I still need his help before it can be ready for the > public. > In addition, I'm facing personal health issue. I'll be unable to work on the > proposal for the next few days. +1 - I just got back from a whirlwind three weeks of the core sprint followed by my son’s wedding. I did get a chance to start fleshing out PEP 8010, but I have a lot of catching up to do, plus two talks to give by October 1st, so a week’s delay would be very helpful. I don’t think I’ll need more than that. -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
