Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Victor Stinner]

> The PEP 8000 lists 5 governance PEPs:

Oops, there are even 6 governance PEPs :-)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Victor Stinner]

Le jeu. 27 sept. 2018 à 01:28, Mariatta Wijaya  a écrit :
> Really sorry folks, but I also would like to request an extension, by one 
> week to Oct 8.

The PEP 8000 lists 5 governance PEPs:

"""
PEPs in the 8010s describe the actual proposals for Python governance.  It is
expected that these PEPs will cover the broad scope of governance, and that
differences in details (such as the size of a governing council) will be
covered in the same PEP, rather than in potentially vote-splitting individual
PEPs.

* PEP 8010 - The BDFL Governance Model

  This is a placeholder PEP for the continuation of the `Benevolent Dictator
  For Life `_
  model.  The name is an homage to Guido's title and does not necessarily
  imply that the next BDFL will be required to serve without time limit.  Also
  within scope is whether an advisory council aids or supports the BDFL.  This
  PEP does *not* name either the next BDFL, nor members of such an advisory
  council.  For that, see PEP 13.

* PEP 8011 - Python Governance Model Lead by Trio of Pythonistas

  This PEP describes a new model of Python governance lead by a Trio
of Pythonistas
  (TOP).  It describes the role and responsibilities of the Trio.
  This PEP does *not* name members of the Trio.  For that, see PEP 13.

* PEP 8012 - The Community Governance Model

  This is a placeholder PEP for a new model of Python governance based on
  consensus and voting, without the role of a centralized singular leader or a
  governing council.  It describes how, when, and why votes are conducted for
  decisions affecting the Python language.  It also describes the criteria for
  voting eligibility.

* PEP 8013 - The External Governance Model

  This PEP describes a new model of Python governance based on an external
  council who are responsible for ensuring good process.  Elected by the core
  development team, this council may reject proposals that are not
  sufficiently detailed, do not consider all affected users, or are not
  appropriate for the upcoming release.  This PEP does *not* name members of
  such a council.  For that, see PEP 13.

* PEP 8014 - The Commons Governance Model

  This PEP describes a new model of Python governance based on a council of
  elders who are responsible for ensuring a PEP is supported by a sufficient
  majority of the Python community before being accepted. Unlike some of the
  other governance PEPs it explicitly does *not* specify who has voting
  rights and what a majority vote consists of. In stead this is determined
  by the council of elders on a case by case basis.

* PEP 8015 - Organization of the Python community

  This PEP formalizes the current organization of the Python community
  and proposes 3 main changes: formalize the existing concept of
  "Python teams"; give more autonomy to Python teams; replace the BDFL
  (Guido van Rossum) with a new "Python board" of 3 members which has
  limited roles, mostly decide how a PEP is approved (or rejected).
"""

The PEP 8000 still says "Additional governance models may be added
before the final selection.": are we still expecting new governance
PEPs? Or should we remove this sentence?

In clear, does anyone want to write a new governance PEP?

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 26, 2018, at 19:28, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
> 
> Really sorry folks, but I also would like to request an extension, by one 
> week to Oct 8.
> It's not because I've been slacking; I've started a five-page document (only 
> Barry has seen it), but I still need his help before it can be ready for the 
> public.
> In addition, I'm facing personal health issue. I'll be unable to work on the 
> proposal for the next few days.

+1 - I just got back from a whirlwind three weeks of the core sprint followed 
by my son’s wedding.  I did get a chance to start fleshing out PEP 8010, but I 
have a lot of catching up to do, plus two talks to give by October 1st, so a 
week’s delay would be very helpful.  I don’t think I’ll need more than that.

-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Really sorry folks, but I also would like to request an extension, by one
week to Oct 8.
It's not because I've been slacking; I've started a five-page document
(only Barry has seen it), but I still need his help before it can be ready
for the public.
In addition, I'm facing personal health issue. I'll be unable to work on
the proposal for the next few days.

I hope this will be ok with you all. Sorry again for delaying this process.

Although we should still be good to "vote" on proposals by Mid November. I
still think it would be good for that PEP 8001 to be ready sooner, so we
all have good understanding of how this all will go down.

Thanks.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Could the authors of those PEPs please at least publish a rough
outline of what their model is all about ?

It doesn't help if we set a deadline only to find that we should
have written up a competing PEP shortly before the deadline
passes.

The only text we have at this point is PEP 8013:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/



On 26.09.2018 10:16, Carol Willing wrote:
> I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's 
> important for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter 
> 2019 with a governance plan.
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
>>> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
>>> Governance PEPs.
>>>
>>> Some still relevant links:
>>>
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
>>> Proposal Overview
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
>>>
>>> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
>>>
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
>>> (I'm claiming this PEP)
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
>>> Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
>>>
>>> I have some questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
>>> governance PEPs?
>>
>> As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Carol Willing]

I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's important 
for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter 2019 with a 
governance plan.

> On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
>> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
>> Governance PEPs.
>> 
>> Some still relevant links:
>> 
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
>> Proposal Overview
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
>> 
>> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
>> 
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
>> (I'm claiming this PEP)
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
>> Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
>> 
>> I have some questions:
>> 
>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
>> governance PEPs?
> 
> As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 25/09/2018 à 17:54, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:11 AM Antoine Pitrou  > wrote:
> 
> I would suggest November 1st, so that nobody feels pressured.
> 
> 
> You realize that then exactly the same will happen around that date, right?

Not really.

> Have you ever been on the organizing side of a conference? Both
> paper/talk submissions and attendee registrations tend to happen
> immediately before the deadline.

I'll take your word for it.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Guido van Rossum]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:11 AM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> I would suggest November 1st, so that nobody feels pressured.
>

You realize that then exactly the same will happen around that date, right?

Have you ever been on the organizing side of a conference? Both paper/talk
submissions and attendee registrations tend to happen immediately before
the deadline.

I propose not to move the deadline *unless* the PEP authors ask for an
extension on the eve of Oct 1st.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 25/09/2018 à 16:07, Barry Warsaw a écrit :
> On Sep 24, 2018, at 14:32, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
>>
>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with 
>> governance PEPs?
> 
> I’m afraid that I may not be, actually.  I expected to have time to work on 
> my PEP while I was on leave for my son’s wedding, but y’know, family! :)  
> Mariatta and I are collaborating a bit on 8011, but I haven’t really had time 
> to work on 8010.  I don’t want to push it back too far, but a couple of weeks 
> would really help.

I would suggest November 1st, so that nobody feels pressured.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 24, 2018, at 14:32, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
> 
> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with 
> governance PEPs?

I’m afraid that I may not be, actually.  I expected to have time to work on my 
PEP while I was on leave for my son’s wedding, but y’know, family! :)  Mariatta 
and I are collaborating a bit on 8011, but I haven’t really had time to work on 
8010.  I don’t want to push it back too far, but a couple of weeks would really 
help.

-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Victor Stinner]

I wanted to read these 4 PEPs:

Le lun. 24 sept. 2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya
 a écrit :
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model (I'm 
> claiming this PEP)
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model

All of them are empty.

> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with 
> governance PEPs?

It doesn't make sense to me:

* Nothing explains how we take a decision: PEP 8001 is empty
* Governance PEPs are empty: how are we supposed to take a decision on
an empty PEP?

> 2. How do we discuss these PEPs?

I suggest to use emails as we did previously, but only on
python-committers. If someone wants to change that, I suggest to wait
after the new governance is decided.

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
> Governance PEPs.
> 
> Some still relevant links:
> 
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
> Proposal Overview
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
> 
> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
> 
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
> (I'm claiming this PEP)
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
> Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
> 
> I have some questions:
> 
> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
> governance PEPs?

As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Brett Cannon]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 at 11:32, Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
> Governance PEPs.
>
> Some still relevant links:
>
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
> Proposal Overview
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting
> Process
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
>
> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
>
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
> (I'm claiming this PEP)
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
> Governance Model
> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
>
> I have some questions:
>
> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
> governance PEPs?
>
> 2. How do we discuss these PEPs?
>

I assume people will start threads about their PEPs to discuss them here
(I'm also personally fine with discussing on Zulip, but I don't know how
others feels about that). The one thing I would say is I would propose all
discussion threads have a subject line that clearly denotes which PEP is
being discussed to help keep it straight (e.g. "[PEP 8011] ..."). That way
it's easy to keep the threads straight.


>
> 3. At the sprint, there's a small workgroup formed for coming up with the
> procedure to vote. How is that coming? Could someone please write up a
> brief summary? (perhaps as a separate email thread) I think it would be
> great to have this written up soon, before Oct 1.
>

Raymond agreed to write up the approach we all agreed upon in our little
breakout group as a draft PEP so they can be presented here to make sure
people overall are happy with the ideas we reached consensus on. I'm not
sure what his ETA is on that, but we were tentatively aiming for the last
half of November for a vote so there isn't a hard deadline to have it
posted and agreed to necessarily within the week (although obviously we
would want to make sure people have plenty of notice of when the voting
will occur so people aren't taken by surprise).
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[python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Mariatta Wijaya]

It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
Governance PEPs.

Some still relevant links:

- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
Proposal Overview
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey

These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.

- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
(I'm claiming this PEP)
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council Governance
Model
- https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model

I have some questions:

1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
governance PEPs?

2. How do we discuss these PEPs?

3. At the sprint, there's a small workgroup formed for coming up with the
procedure to vote. How is that coming? Could someone please write up a
brief summary? (perhaps as a separate email thread) I think it would be
great to have this written up soon, before Oct 1.

Thanks.


Mariatta
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