Re: [Python-Dev] In-place operators
Raymond Hettinger wrote: [Martin v. Löwis] I would object to their removal, though, because it would hurt my sense of symmetry. I wasn't going to propose removal. If everyone had agreed that the operator in-place functions were problematic, I was going to suggest moving their docs to a second page and documenting their limatations (like we had done long ago with some of the builtins that were no longer essential and had become obsolete). That would leave the main page full of the operator functions that have real utility. Splitting their documentation out to a separate page that explains their lack of usefulness when dealing with containers or immutable objects sounds like a great idea. As you say, due to their reliance on a separate assignment step they really are more limited than the other functions in the operator module. You didn't actually make that proposal in your original message though - you just asked if people thought it was a mistake to have added them to the operator module (which implied, at least to me, that you were going to suggest deprecating them). So +1 from me for changing the operator module docs as you suggest. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] In-place operators
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Certainly, the doc string is wrong: isub(a, b) -- Same as a -= b. That's not quite the same - you would have to write a = isub(a, b) -- Same as a -= b. It seems a perfectly fine solution is simply to fix the docstring, exactly like that: a = isub(a, b) -- Same as a -= b. This both corrects the error when using isub with immutable types and educates user as to how a -= b actually works. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Hey guys/gals Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 at 16:56, Arc Riley wrote: Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer How about improving 2to3? Seems like that could be an interesting, challenging, useful, and rewarding project :). -- R. David Murray http://www.bitdance.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com: Hey guys/gals Thanks for organizing this! Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. Well, there's a list of core projects on the wiki if remember correctly. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. (Just so you know, 3.1 is in http://svn.python.org/view/python/branches/py3k) 3.1 is scheduled to be released in June, so that's probably too early for projects now. Of course, that doesn't take them out of the running for 3.2. One project I can think of off the top of my head is integrating ABCs further into the interpreter (optimizing and probably rewriting the abc module in C), so that C code can make use of them. While working on the core is admirable, I think gsoc would provide an opportunity to port important Python libraries to 3.x. It's important to remember that doing ports helps the core immensely by uncovering 2to3 and py3k bugs. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Hello Arc, Arc Riley arcriley at gmail.com writes: I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org /view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. Well, first, it's too late for 3.1, which will (should) be out before July. Second, all the eagerly needed optimization work on py3k has now been done. A quick skim through the bug tracker's performance and feature request tickets did not seem to yield anything interesting and big enough for a GSOC project (although I could have overlooked something). Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be related to some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module could welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, probably others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not needing any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be appropriate for an outsider. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
R. David Murray wrote: How about improving 2to3? Seems like that could be an interesting, challenging, useful, and rewarding project :). Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu writes: Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools. I didn't know there was such a request. I thought it was only a PyPy April fool. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project (plus many more suggesting port X to Python 3 as project ideas). Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? We should have many ideas up for students to consider. The more student who apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many students we get total. As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student, preferably two. These should be people familiar with and actively working in the area the student would be. We're putting mentor contact info on the wiki so potential students can hash out the details with them before applying. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com: I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project (plus many more suggesting port X to Python 3 as project ideas). Ok. That's excellent. Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely open. We should have many ideas up for students to consider. The more student who apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many students we get total. As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student, preferably two. These should be people familiar with and actively working in the area the student would be. We're putting mentor contact info on the wiki so potential students can hash out the details with them before applying. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] SoC: Optimize Python3
Hi, There are some very interresting issues about long type optimization: faster long multiplication http://bugs.python.org/issue3944 Asymptotically faster divmod and str(long) http://bugs.python.org/issue3451 Use 30-bit digits instead of 15-bit digits for Python integers. http://bugs.python.org/issue4258 (mostly done) But the issues are still open because the code is not easy to review and it's already difficult to benchmark (make sure that it's always faster!). The project can be different than the 3 issues, it should be possible to find new ways to optimize operations on integers ;-) There are other importants features to optimize like: - unicode string (str in python3) - I/O: io-c in py3k branch is already much better, but I'm sure that we can do better ;-) - etc. -- Victor Stinner aka haypo http://www.haypocalc.com/blog/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] SoC: security
Tav organized a challenge to prove that its simple idea could be used to write a new restricted python module. Restart Python security is an huge project, but also an interesting project. http://tav.espians.com/a-challenge-to-break-python-security.html http://wiki.python.org/moin/Security -- Victor Stinner aka haypo http://www.haypocalc.com/blog/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely open. Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested students. Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and possibly mentor one? The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up at http://socghop.appspot.com/ Students are already starting to look over the different organizations ideas pages and connect with mentors. Student application period opens next week. All the mentors for PSF read and review them and we assign mentors to them (often whatever mentor the student worked with to build the proposal). Do you want prospective students contacting the list or the mentor they're interested in working with directly? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com: Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely open. Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested students. Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and possibly mentor one? Certainly The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up at http://socghop.appspot.com/ Students are already starting to look over the different organizations ideas pages and connect with mentors. Student application period opens next week. All the mentors for PSF read and review them and we assign mentors to them (often whatever mentor the student worked with to build the proposal). Do you want prospective students contacting the list or the mentor they're interested in working with directly? IMO, mentors should get direct mail. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 09:24:25PM +, Antoine Pitrou wrote: - Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be related to - some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module could - welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, probably - others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not needing - any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be appropriate - for an outsider. Hi Antoine, interesting idea -- but I've seen too many arguments about what the *right* functionality to add to unittest would be to want to give it to a student. I think a student would probably not be willing or able to fight the battles necessary to get his/her changes into the core... cheers, --titus -- C. Titus Brown, c...@msu.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
While working on the core is admirable, I think gsoc would provide an opportunity to port important Python libraries to 3.x. It's important to remember that doing ports helps the core immensely by uncovering 2to3 and py3k bugs. Hello. It's a very noble task to have important python libraries ported to python 3.x. I've played almost whole last year with porting important python libraries to work on different python interpreters (running the same version of python). They differ in tiny details, only a bit. And guess what, it was not only hard, but also very tedious. And now consider student, who looks for joy and is facing python library (say medium, couple tens of k lines of code). With help of 2to3 is getting something that almost works on top of python 3. Except for few small details. This probably means couple weeks spend on debugging obscure failures that end up depending on different string representation of exception or something like that. Assuming he knows python well enough to understand not only major differences (which are handled by 2to3 anyway), but also all minor ones. And those tiny which makes you wonder why unicode subclasses and string subclasses are not exactly behaving how they're defined in a spec. Suppose student is smart and likes debugging and it's all working. Now the question is, who will maintain the resulting library? Will original team of say twisted maintain it or will it be up to student? Will it just rot in a corner? Who'll maintain buildbots for that? I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining libraries instead of just proposing let's make some poor student port it to py3k, but I might be just wrong, I don't know. Cheers, fijal ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu R. David Murray wrote: How about improving 2to3? Seems like that could be an interesting, challenging, useful, and rewarding project :). Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools. I'm not in a position to mentor this, but I too think this would be a great thing to have. -Brett ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.comwrote: I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining libraries instead of just proposing let's make some poor student port it to py3k, but I might be just wrong, I don't know. I agree. Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so they stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our project as the #2 committer, but he's an exception. Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a student. As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort. I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-) We need a couple more at least. If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop primarily in Py3?) is something that's wanted, who would be a good mentor for it? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 14:56, Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.orgwrote: 2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com: Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely open. Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested students. Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and possibly mentor one? Certainly I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be 18 by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibilityseems to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know. Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to do by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better). -Brett ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.comwrote: I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining libraries instead of just proposing let's make some poor student port it to py3k, but I might be just wrong, I don't know. I agree. Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so they stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our project as the #2 committer, but he's an exception. Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a student. As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort. I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-) We need a couple more at least. If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop primarily in Py3?) Exactly. The semantics are cleaner in 3.x, suggesting it would be easier to backport it to 2.x. is something that's wanted, who would be a good mentor for it? Benjamin has done the most work on 2to3 recently. Thomas Wouters originally came up with the idea for 3to2 but I suspect he doesn't want to mentor. -Brett ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Brett Cannon br...@python.org wrote: I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be 18 by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibilityseems to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know. Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to do by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better). This isn't a problem. Drupal had a GHOP (SoC for highschool students) mentor who was too young to be a student (11 or 12 at the time), I believe Dmitri also served them as a SoC mentor, I know several SoC mentors are teenagers. I'd rather we find a different primary mentor for each student, it'd be best if every student had a backup mentor in-place from the start as well, but one person can be a contact point for many ideas. Ben, would you be OK with being a contact point for 3to2 as well? We'll figure out who's mentoring who once we see student apps and decide which ones we want mentored this year. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Hey guys/gals Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. How about porting PIL to 3.0? There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :)) Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort. Without help, it is going to take a long time to get many packages converted to 3.x. I think the students can be invaluable in this process. Ideally, they will tweak the 2.6 code until it converts cleanly using 2-to-3. That sort of work will be easy to maintain. IMO, this is the most important thing that can be done for Python at the moment. I would much rather this sort of work than having a student build a new library module and then not be around to maintain it. Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com wrote: Without help, it is going to take a long time to get many packages converted to 3.x. I don't disagree, I just don't want to volunteer projects for something they don't want. Unless I misunderstand the situation, PIL doesn't seem applicable for SoC given that their development tree is closed/proprietary (only free releases are available under a free license). Does anyone here work with PIL or can provide further insight into their Py3 plans? Note also that some of the largest Python-based projects, Django, Mercurial, Plone/Zope, Scons, etc, are setup as their own SoC mentoring orgs. Only Mercurial has Py3 migration on their ideas list. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Daniel Fetchinson fetchin...@googlemail.com wrote: Hey guys/gals Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. How about porting PIL to 3.0? There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :)) I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them), but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least). Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ggpolo%40gmail.com -- -- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
C. Titus Brown wrote: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 09:24:25PM +, Antoine Pitrou wrote: - Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be related to - some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module could - welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, probably - others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not needing - any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be appropriate - for an outsider. Hi Antoine, interesting idea -- but I've seen too many arguments about what the *right* functionality to add to unittest would be to want to give it to a student. I think a student would probably not be willing or able to fight the battles necessary to get his/her changes into the core... Yeah, that was my thought on that specific example as well - since there isn't anyone to say we're doing it this way for the unittest module the way we have with the language itself (i.e. Guido) or with other modules (e.g. Raymond for itertools, Vinay for logging), unittest improvement discussions tend to get stuck on the details :P If an existing module has a strong owner that can say yes/no to large changes then work in that area can be a good student project (especially if the owner can serve as the mentor). But modules with only collective python-dev responsibility can be tricky to work on more from the social angle rather than the technical one. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
2009/3/18 Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Brett Cannon br...@python.org wrote: I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be 18 by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibility seems to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know. Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to do by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better). This isn't a problem. Drupal had a GHOP (SoC for highschool students) mentor who was too young to be a student (11 or 12 at the time), I believe Dmitri also served them as a SoC mentor, I know several SoC mentors are teenagers. Excellent! I'd rather we find a different primary mentor for each student, it'd be best if every student had a backup mentor in-place from the start as well, but one person can be a contact point for many ideas. Ben, would you be OK with being a contact point for 3to2 as well? We'll figure out who's mentoring who once we see student apps and decide which ones we want mentored this year. Sure. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] What level of detail wanted for import and the language reference?
Benjamin Peterson schrieb: 2009/3/16 Brett Cannon br...@python.org: At this point importlib is done for its public API for Python 3.1. That means it's time to turn my attention to making sure the semantics of import are well documented. But where to put all of the details? The language reference for import (http://docs.python.org/dev/py3k/reference/simple_stmts.html#the-import-statement) explains the basics, but is lacking all of the details of PEP 302 and other stuff like __path__ that have existed for ages. My question is if I should flesh out the details in the language reference or do it in importlib's intro docs. The main reason I could see not doing it in the langauge reference (or at least duplicating it) is it would be somewhat easier to reference specific objects in importlib but I am not sure if the language reference should try to stay away from stdlib references. Thanks so much for doing this! Personally, I think you should put it in the language reference. (I think it deserves it's own file if it's as big as I suspect it will be.) If you asked me, I'd concur with Benjamin. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Non-Core project: IDLE
IDLE needs lots of attention -- more than any one experienced person is likely to have ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Non-Core project: IDLE
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: IDLE needs lots of attention -- more than any one experienced person is likely to have I've actually heard this from several people, IDLE on Py3 etc Who would be a good person to mentor such a project? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Arc Riley wrote: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com mailto:fij...@gmail.com wrote: I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining libraries instead of just proposing let's make some poor student port it to py3k, but I might be just wrong, I don't know. I agree. Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so they stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our project as the #2 committer, but he's an exception. Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a student. As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort. I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-) We need a couple more at least. If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop primarily in Py3?) is something that's wanted, who would be a good mentor for it? We also need projects for people who may want to do some coding and then just walk away - the SoC experience might teach them that programming isn't for them ;-) regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects: 3to2
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu writes:
Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools.
I didn't know there was such a request. I thought it was only a PyPy April fool.
Some of the people who need to support both late 2.x and 3.x would
prefer to write 3.x code and backport. The OP of a current python-list
thread asked whether there was any way to write something like
@alias('__nonzero__')
def __bool__(self): return True
(in preference to explicit 'if version') and have .__bool__ be
either replaced or aliased as .__nonzero__ for a 2.x version. Answer:
No. Use 3to2 if/when available.
This has been the answer in other threads as well.
I believe my own 3.0 code will mainly also need
print() to print statement
except e as a to 2.x version
class C() to class C(object)
An easily doable project would be both used and appreciated.
tjr
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Arc Riley wrote: I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project (plus many more suggesting port X to Python 3 as project ideas). Note the SoC timeline; http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2? Let's not forget that we could (fairly easily?) make an interim release of a 3.1-based 2to3 before adding in anything 3.2-specific, so there's no reason why a SoC project shouldn't work, with a release after the project (perhaps as a patch to 3.1 installations) and hence over a year before 3.2. Or perhaps a 3.1.1 release could incorporate the more advanced 2to3 features with the same 3.1 language ... We should have many ideas up for students to consider. The more student who apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many students we get total. As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student, preferably two. These should be people familiar with and actively working in the area the student would be. We're putting mentor contact info on the wiki so potential students can hash out the details with them before applying. Realistically I am not sure I will have time to mentor, but if you need any help from the PSF please feel free to get in touch. Thanks for taking this challenging role up on behalf of the Python community. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects: 3to2
Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu writes:
Some of the people who need to support both late 2.x and 3.x would
prefer to write 3.x code and backport. The OP of a current python-list
thread asked whether there was any way to write something like
@alias('__nonzero__')
def __bool__(self): return True
How about simply:
__nonzero__ = __bool__
I believe my own 3.0 code will mainly also need
print() to print statement
If this is only about supporting late 2.x (i.e., 2.6 and upwards), you can
already write:
from __future__ import print_function
except e as a to 2.x version
Works in 2.6.
class C() to class C(object)
__metaclass__ = type
Now I'm not saying that all 3.0 code will work in 2.6 with such simple
precautions, far from it!
Regards
Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Arc Riley wrote: The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up at http://socghop.appspot.com/ Any chance that we can keep http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 light on markup? I simply can't add a 'tidy struct and finish buffer interface/bytearray details' proposal as it is :/ Daniel ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Feel free to email wi...@bluesock.org or me with your ideas if the markup is difficult to work with. We've been on wiki duty all afternoon. description, any specific skills they'll need (special library, compiler theory, etc), what mentor should they talk to if they're interested. The markup complexity makes it much easier for students to navigate while including the info Google suggested. I'm hoping someone from the python web team will add the CSS class we need to greatly simplify it. On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz aja...@gmail.comwrote: Arc Riley wrote: The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up at http://socghop.appspot.com/ Any chance that we can keep http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 light on markup? I simply can't add a 'tidy struct and finish buffer interface/bytearray details' proposal as it is :/ Daniel ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects: 3to2
2009/3/18 Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net: class C() to class C(object) __metaclass__ = type Or even better: just inherit from object in 3.0 and 2.x. :) -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. How about porting PIL to 3.0? There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :)) I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them), but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least). I did a git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git but it failed: gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out) fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed. By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people mostly are waiting for an official PIL release that is known to be stable. Did you try making your port part of the official PIL distribution? Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Daniel Fetchinson fetchin...@googlemail.com wrote: Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. How about porting PIL to 3.0? There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :)) I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them), but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least). I did a git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git but it failed: gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out) fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed. Thanks for noticing that, maybe more people had this same problem then, I will consider using github or some similar service (or maybe take the chance to bazaar, or mercurial, or svn, or..). By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people mostly are waiting for an official PIL release that is known to be stable. Did you try making your port part of the official PIL distribution? I have talked with Fredrik, he said he would be running it on another test suite to check how much of it really works. But, no, I didn't really try pushing it to be integrated into the next PIL release and it also wouldn't be possible without distributing a py3k version only -- I didn't do the port with the ability to work in python 3.x and python 2.x but this can be arranged. Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown Regards, -- -- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code
Summer of Code is ramping up. Every year the common complaint is that not enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective students is a link to the PEP index. So let's make this year different. Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project. The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be demonstrated. They're being paid for specific projects so Spend the Summer fixing bugs on the tracker is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer of Code is about code, not documentation. I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all over the place. It'd be great if those of you working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit. PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time to get core project ideas together. How about porting PIL to 3.0? There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :)) I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them), but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least). I did a git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git but it failed: gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out) fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed. Thanks for noticing that, maybe more people had this same problem then, I will consider using github or some similar service (or maybe take the chance to bazaar, or mercurial, or svn, or..). By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people mostly are waiting for an official PIL release that is known to be stable. Did you try making your port part of the official PIL distribution? I have talked with Fredrik, he said he would be running it on another test suite to check how much of it really works. But, no, I didn't really try pushing it to be integrated into the next PIL release and it also wouldn't be possible without distributing a py3k version only -- I didn't do the port with the ability to work in python 3.x and python 2.x but this can be arranged. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I didn't mean to say that this version should work on both python 2.x and python 3.x. Ideally, there would be a PIL distribution for 2.x only and another one for 3.x only. The only thing is that people (myself included) will only be comfortable with the PIL for 3.x version if it comes with the blessings of Fredrik, i.e. if I were you I'd try pushing this with Fredrik. After all if all tests pass including the ones Fredrik has for himself, there should be no problem and I suppose he would be happy to have a PIL for python 3.x. Until then I'd be happy to check out your own port, whenever you have a working repository copy please let us know. Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] what's new in 3.1 anyone?
It seems Andrew will be doing What's new in Python 2.7? again, but we don't seem to have a volunteer to do the 3.1 version? Would anyone like to volunteer? -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] what's new in 3.1 anyone?
[Benjamin Peterson] It seems Andrew will be doing What's new in Python 2.7? again, but we don't seem to have a volunteer to do the 3.1 version? Would anyone like to volunteer? I'll pick-up this responsibility. Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] tracker status options
Hi all, I'm continuing to (slowly) work through issues. I have been looking particularly at a lot of the open issues regarding strftime. It would be great to put in some of those extra status options that were discussed recently... Open/New Needs help / Chatting Under development Pending feedback Closed For everyone's reference, after some debate, the above list of status options was where the conversation finished. So the two options Needs help / chatting and Under development would need to be added. Issues that are Under development should revert to Needs help / chatting after a month of inactivity. Would it be possible to get these put in? Maybe I'm one of a small number of people who are nibbling at the bottom end of the bugs, but I find it somewhat frustrating not to be able to classify the issues that I find into needs help / chatting vs under development to help make more sense of the search results. Cheers, -T ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
