Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
> On Sep 29, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Steve Dower wrote: > >> On 29Sep2015 0820, Chris Barker wrote: >> OK -- I'm going to get off my soap box now -- time to actually suggest >> doc patches > > Just bear in mind that you're suggesting patches for Python 3.3 and 3.4, > which means that 3.4.4 is the only real chance to get them onto people's > machines. I don't expect to get it onto anyone's machine -- does anyone download docs anymore? > http://docs.python.org/ already points to the 3.5 docs by default, which > means only people who explicitly look for the earlier versions will see the > changes. Well, if your trying to build an extension for 3.4, hopefully you'll think to look at 3.4 docs. But good point -- the 3.5 docs should have a note saying that the requirements are different than older releases. > You don't really have a huge audience, so I wouldn't invest large amounts of > time in the official docs. A couple of well-publicised blog posts will reach > more people. Not on my blog. At this point, I think the Cython Wiki us the best place to point people, but really, less than ideal. -CHB > > Cheers, > Steve > > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/chris.barker%40noaa.gov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
> I'm not sure why INADA Naoki's answer above wasn't sufficient for you? It may be -- I've still have to test. Neither Windows nor py3 are my primary production versions. But the last time I tried the SDK approach was for py2.7 on Win64, and it was both a pain, and impossible to set up to "just work" in my highly secure environment. So at best, it needs some serious documentation. And no, it shouldn't be just a blog post somewhere (unless maybe Steve Dowers's blog). Thus whole issue has been dogging python on windows for many years -- it never has been easy to find out what to do. In fact, there are all sorts of Blog posts out there, with various levels of out of date, conflicting, or just plain wrong advice. A definitive version in the official docs would be a very good thing. BTW, I think this is a good discussion: https://github.com/cython/cython/wiki/CythonExtensionsOnWindows But not everyone is going to think to look at the Cython Wiki... -Chris > You need to have the SDK compilers on your PATH (by running the > relevant environment setting command) and you need to set the > environment variable DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1 (this latter bit of > information is hard to find documented, admittedly, but pretty well > known). > > That basically gives you a Visual Studio 2010 equivalent environment. > You'll still have all sorts of *other* problems building extensions on > Windows, but unless I'm missing something important in what you were > saying, getting a compiler isn't the issue. > > Paul ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:20 Steve Dower wrote: On 29Sep2015 0820, Chris Barker wrote: > OK -- I'm going to get off my soap box now -- time to actually suggest > doc patches Just bear in mind that you're suggesting patches for Python 3.3 and 3.4, which means that 3.4.4 is the only real chance to get them onto people's machines. http://docs.python.org/ already points to the 3.5 docs by default, which means only people who explicitly look for the earlier versions will see the changes. You don't really have a huge audience, so I wouldn't invest large amounts of time in the official docs. A couple of well-publicised blog posts will reach more people. Maybe but I think it would be good to have some documentation somewhere (perhaps under the pypa banner) that can advise extension module authors who want to provide Windows binaries for multiple CPython versions. It's not obvious how to go about setting things up to make python.org compatible binaries for say Python 2.7 and 3.2-3.5. Before 3.5 the simplest solution was to use MinGW but that doesn't work for 3.5 (hence numpy are currently uploading rcs without 3.5 binaries for Windows). Just an explanation of what it takes in terms of MS compilers and which free as in beer ones are available where would be helpful which could go in a blog post as you say. IMO It would be more helpful though if it were a continuously improved document that will be updated as new CPython releases come out and the availability of MS compilers changes. -- Oscar ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
On 25 September 2015 at 16:35, INADA Naoki wrote: > You can use "Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 4". > > http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8279 > > On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal > wrote: >> >> As I understand it, the MS VS2010 compiler is required (or at least >> best practice) for compiling Python extensions for the python.org >> Windows builds of py 3.4 and ?[1] >> >> However, MS now makes it very hard (impossible?) to download VS2010 >> Express ( or Community, or whatever the free as in beer version is >> called). >> >> I realize that this is not python-dev's responsibility, but if there >> is any way to either document where it can be found, or put a bit of >> pressure on MS to make it available, as they have for VS2008 and >> py2.7, that would be great. >> >> Sorry to bug this list, I didn't know where else to reach out to. On 29 September 2015 at 16:20, Chris Barker wrote: > It sounds like we don't expect MS t help out in this case, but at least we > can better document what users need to do, and how to do it -- and NOT with > a "kludge together an open-source compiler and cross your fingers" approach. I'm not sure why INADA Naoki's answer above wasn't sufficient for you? You need to have the SDK compilers on your PATH (by running the relevant environment setting command) and you need to set the environment variable DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1 (this latter bit of information is hard to find documented, admittedly, but pretty well known). That basically gives you a Visual Studio 2010 equivalent environment. You'll still have all sorts of *other* problems building extensions on Windows, but unless I'm missing something important in what you were saying, getting a compiler isn't the issue. Paul ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
On Sep 29, 2015 8:22 AM, "Chris Barker" wrote: > >> And in mingw-w64, the only way to select a non-default CRT > > what is a "default" CRT in this case?? To answer the question: mingw-w64's standard/default/only-officially-supported CRT is msvcrt.dll (the version that has no version number in the name). Wikipedia tells me that this is the runtime used by msvc 4.2 - 6.0 (the later of which was released in 1998). The reason for this decision is that for whatever historical reason, this particular CRT dll is shipped with Windows by default, and thus using it avoids certain license issues that can otherwise arise, esp. with GPL software. (Fortunately not an issue for python extensions, but since it is an issue for other programs they just made the decision to support a single configuration that works for everybody. Except when it doesn't ;-).) In practice mingw-w64 ships its own runtime as a layer on top of msvcrt.dll -- it gets used as a OS services layer, but mingw-w64 users aren't just getting dropped directly into a wonderland of 15+ year old code. (In fact, mingw-w64 upstream would like to make their runtime clever enough to bind the underlying "OS services layer" at load time rather than compile time, so that mingw-w64 compiled dll's would be "runtime agile" and could be safely loaded into any process. The main thing we care about is just that this would give upstream a way to officially support targeting newer CRTs, but it would have a number of other benefits too: one modern toolchain that could build extension modules for all versions of python, the ability when combined with Python's "stable abi" to target 3.2+ with a single binary distribution, better interoperability between python and other windows ecosystems that went the mingw-w64 route like R... but, this all requires funding someone to do the work.) -n ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
On 29Sep2015 0820, Chris Barker wrote: OK -- I'm going to get off my soap box now -- time to actually suggest doc patches Just bear in mind that you're suggesting patches for Python 3.3 and 3.4, which means that 3.4.4 is the only real chance to get them onto people's machines. http://docs.python.org/ already points to the 3.5 docs by default, which means only people who explicitly look for the earlier versions will see the changes. You don't really have a huge audience, so I wouldn't invest large amounts of time in the official docs. A couple of well-publicised blog posts will reach more people. Cheers, Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] VS 2010 compiler
And in mingw-w64, the only way to select a non-default CRT > what is a "default" CRT in this case?? > CRT issues are indeed tricky, because they only bite in certain > circumstances -- so long as you never pass a FILE* or a fileno across the > dll boundary, or call malloc in one module and free in the other, or ... > Which happens to be EXACTLY what I'm needing to do right now then it works fine. Except when it doesn't :-). > yup -- a new developer on my team spent yesterday bangin his head agaist this -- then asked "I'm compiling the lib with VS2013, the the python extension with VS2008, could that be the problem? -- uh, yes? The Python core developers made the decision a long time ago to use the MS compilers for the "official" distributions -- as they are the "platform" compilers. And as far as I know, everyone else has followed that path for compatibility (Enthought Canopy, Anaconda, ActiveState) (except cygWin, but that's not really the Windows platform, IFAIC). Given MS decision to both: tie the compiler tightly to the run-time, AND make it hard to get old versions of the compiler, that's turned out to be a pain. But I suspect there have been real advantages over, for instance, building the whole thing on MinGW. But in any case, that's what we've got -- and it would be really nice to support teh community as best we can, as has been done fro Python2.7 with updates to setuptools and the MS download of the old VS2008. It sounds like we don't expect MS t help out in this case, but at least we can better document what users need to do, and how to do it -- and NOT with a "kludge together an open-source compiler and cross your fingers" approach. OK -- I'm going to get off my soap box now -- time to actually suggest doc patches -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Washington DC Python sprint report
Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 28, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> On Sep 28, 2015, at 08:22 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> >> I saw that you had a need for an asyncio tutorial. I wonder if the "500 >> lines" chapter on asyncio would help? I didn't write it; I only write the >> asyncio is pretty powerful so it would be nice to have > Python documentation for newcomers. > > I'm sure I'm not the right person to write it though. I think you'd be a great person to write those docs -- in partnership with someone that really understands the guts. The first step to docs is knowing what questions to answer, and in what order to answer them. You've recently gone through the process of trying to figure it out for a particular use case -- you know just what questions you had. And you even just posted the start of an outline. Whether that's what you want to do with your limited time is another question... CHB > Cheers, > -Barry > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/chris.barker%40noaa.gov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com