Re: [Python-Dev] I hope this won't be my last comment here ~ yet it may well be...

[Chris Barker]

 I'm really confused -- you had a handful of very positive responses to
your offer to help with Python on Windows.

Then a couple off the cuff remarks (at least one of which was serious)
about what is often known as "the bus factor":

But I think you may want to take into account the history here. This has
been talked about A LOT in the Python community for years -- so we may be a
bit blase about it. Note that Wikipedia's page on the bus factor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

"""An early instance of this sort of query was when Michael McLay publicly
asked, in 1994, what would happen to the Python language
 if Guido van
Rossum  were hit by a bus.
[8] """

So this has been very, very well hashed out in the Python community.

And a quick look at the existence of this list, the messages on it, and the
source repo will tell you that Python is in no way a personal project of
one person. (not to mentions the PSF)

I think the lessons here are:

- don't be too sensitive

and, important for every open source community:

- your comments and questions will be taken far more seriously if you have
done your homework.

-CHB


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 4:54 AM, Burkhard Meier 
wrote:

> Please do allow me to share my humble experiences of being a software
> professional on a Windows platform.
>
> Almost 20 years.
>
> You know what; when I tried out 'sugar Linux' or Peppermint,,,the "admin'
> dude kicked me out 5 times in one sole eve,
>
> Maybe this is just *me*..
>
> You know what: I did have my time with this *open source community*...
>
> I was just asking a sincere question.
>
> C'mon
>
> This was rather very ridiculous.
>
>
>
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>


-- 

Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division
NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
Seattle, WA  98115   (206) 526-6317   main reception

chris.bar...@noaa.gov
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Re: [Python-Dev] obmalloc mmap/munmap thrashing

[Tim Peters]

You may be interested in this seemingly related bug report:

http://bugs.python.org/issue26601

[Neil Schemenauer ]
> I was running Python 2.4.11 under strace and I noticed some odd
> looking system calls:
>
> mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
> 0x7f9848681000
> munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
> mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
> 0x7f9848681000
> munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
> [... repeated a number of times ...]
>
> Looking at obmalloc.c, there doesn't seem to be any high/low
> watermark (hysteresis) associated with unallocating arenas.  Is that
> true?  If so, does it seem prudent to implement something to avoid
> this behavior?  It seems potentially expensive if you program is
> running just at the threshold of needing another arena.
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Re: [Python-Dev] obmalloc mmap/munmap thrashing

[Alexander Walters]

...is that a typo for 2.7.11?

On 4/21/2016 17:44, Neil Schemenauer wrote:

I was running Python 2.4.11 under strace and I noticed some odd
looking system calls:

mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
0x7f9848681000
munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
0x7f9848681000
munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
[... repeated a number of times ...]

Looking at obmalloc.c, there doesn't seem to be any high/low
watermark (hysteresis) associated with unallocating arenas.  Is that
true?  If so, does it seem prudent to implement something to avoid
this behavior?  It seems potentially expensive if you program is
running just at the threshold of needing another arena.
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[Python-Dev] obmalloc mmap/munmap thrashing

[Neil Schemenauer]

I was running Python 2.4.11 under strace and I noticed some odd
looking system calls:

mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
0x7f9848681000
munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
mmap(NULL, 262144, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1, 0) = 
0x7f9848681000
munmap(0x7f9848681000, 262144)  = 0
[... repeated a number of times ...]

Looking at obmalloc.c, there doesn't seem to be any high/low
watermark (hysteresis) associated with unallocating arenas.  Is that
true?  If so, does it seem prudent to implement something to avoid
this behavior?  It seems potentially expensive if you program is
running just at the threshold of needing another arena.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Pathlib enhancements - acceptable inputs and outputs for __fspath__ and os.fspath()

[Nick Coghlan]

On 20 April 2016 at 13:16, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:

> It's people who live in monolingual mono-encoding environments who
> will be using bytes successfully, and be resistent to costly changes
> that don't make their lives better.  But the bytes vs. text cost is
> inherent in using pathlib, so polymorphism doesn't help promote
> pathlib.  It might help promote use of os.scandir in bytes-oriented
> code, though I don't see that as a huge effect nor more than mildly
> desirable.  Is it?
>

Some of us are also interested in optimised network service development use
cases where UTF-8 already rules the world [1]. It's a vastly different
domain from desktop computing, and different even from traditional stateful
servers where the same instance may be kept running for years.

When "absolutely everything is UTF-8, and your system boundaries are
policed accordingly" is a valid assumption, then writing bytes level
network code is a far more viable option than when you're writing software
to give to other people to run in arbitrary environments (that's how Go is
able to get away with its "all system boundaries use UTF-8" approach - if
you're not prepared to meet that precondition, you don't choose to use Go
in the first place).

I think this is also why we're talking past each other - as a default, I
completely agree it makes sense to present a "str-only" API (that's where
my proposed fspath/_raw_fspath split came from). However, there really are
contexts where "our text is always stored as bytes, those bytes are always
UTF-8 encoded, and our software only needs to work on *nix systems" is a
reasonable approach, and those are the domains where being *able* to stay
entirely in the binary domain is actually a desirable characteristic,
rather than merely a tool for migrating from Python 2.

Cheers,
Nick.

[1] http://utf8everywhere.org/

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] When the infamous Bier trunk hits ... where is our Python backup?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 21, 2016, at 10:43 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

>I still have no clue what you're talking about. Every project has a
>leader. If Guido dies, goes insane [1], or gets bored with the Python
>project, someone else can and will take over.

Fortunately, the Python Secret Underground (PSU) which most emphatically does
not exist, has a succession plan involving three questions and holy gr

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Re: [Python-Dev] Pathlib enhancements - acceptable inputs and outputs for __fspath__ and os.fspath()

[Nick Coghlan]

On 20 April 2016 at 13:16, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:

> What's left is DirEntry (and perhaps other producers of byte-oriented
> objects in os and os.path).  If they're currently using DirEntry,
> they're currently accessing .path.  Surely bytes users can continue
> doing that, even if we offer str users the advantage of new protocols?
>

The consuming functions aren't currently allowing DirEntry objects either
(since scandir is even newer than pathlib), so we want to allow both
pathlib and DirEntry objects with a single change to consuming functions.

I'd like to see that change in consuming functions be as simple as
possible: an unconditional "path = os._raw_fspath(path)" at the start of
their existing input processing

Those consuming functions fall into one of three categories:

1. They're bytes/str polymorphic
2. They're bytes only
3. They're str only

Whichever category they're in, their existing argument processing will be
readily able to cope with a polymorphic result from os._raw_fspath, since
that's no different from today, where the argument passed in may be bytes
or str and they need to handle that appropriately.

Having os.fspath(path) as a specifically str-only layer then gives
consuming functions in category 3 an alternative option, and encourages
category 3 functions and APIs (like pathlib) as the future default, without
getting in the way of the folks that need to mess about down in the low
level weeds of operating system interfaces.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] When the infamous Bier trunk hits ... where is our Python backup?

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Burkhard Meier
 wrote:
> Don't be afraid.
>
> This is just CEO talk.
>
> Let's imagine Python without a leader.
>
> All commercial companies...well ... are we free?
>

I still have no clue what you're talking about. Every project has a
leader. If Guido dies, goes insane [1], or gets bored with the Python
project, someone else can and will take over.

ChrisA
[1] More than usual, I mean. It has to be bad enough that we'd notice.
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Re: [Python-Dev] I hope this won't be my last comment here ~ yet it may well be...

[Brian Curtin]

On Thursday, April 21, 2016, Burkhard Meier 
wrote:

> Please do allow me to share my humble experiences of being a software
> professional on a Windows platform.
>
> Almost 20 years.
>
> You know what; when I tried out 'sugar Linux' or Peppermint,,,the "admin'
> dude kicked me out 5 times in one sole eve,
>
> Maybe this is just *me*..
>
> You know what: I did have my time with this *open source community*...
>
> I was just asking a sincere question.
>
> C'mon
>
> This was rather very ridiculous.
>
>
>
As someone who spent many years as a Windows user and several years as a
contributor to the Windows build here, if you have constructive thoughts to
share on Python-on-Windows, please share them...but I can't decipher what
any of this message is actually about.

Additionally, you may want to try the python-list mailing list.
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[Python-Dev] I hope this won't be my last comment here ~ yet it may well be...

[Burkhard Meier]

Please do allow me to share my humble experiences of being a software
professional on a Windows platform.

Almost 20 years.

You know what; when I tried out 'sugar Linux' or Peppermint,,,the "admin'
dude kicked me out 5 times in one sole eve,

Maybe this is just *me*..

You know what: I did have my time with this *open source community*...

I was just asking a sincere question.

C'mon

This was rather very ridiculous.
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Re: [Python-Dev] When the infamous Bier trunk hits ... where is our Python backup?

[Burkhard Meier]

Don't be afraid.

This is just CEO talk.

Let's imagine Python without a leader.

All commercial companies...well ... are we free?

Burkhard



On Thursday, April 21, 2016, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> O Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 04:00:29AM -0700, Burkhard Meier wrote:
> > Well,
> >
> > Just a thought.
>
> I'm afraid I have no idea what you are referring to.
>
>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] When the infamous Bier trunk hits ... where is our Python backup?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 04:00:29AM -0700, Burkhard Meier wrote:
> Well,
> 
> Just a thought.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are referring to.


-- 
Steve
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[Python-Dev] When the infamous Bier trunk hits ... where is our Python backup?

[Burkhard Meier]

Well,

Just a thought.
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