[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Terry Reedy]

On 8/19/2021 2:47 PM, Marco Sulla wrote:

I think you're writing to me.


I was writing to 3 people including you and everyone in general 
requesting that people be more careful when responding.



I simply clicked the "Reply to all"


Don't do that.  Just followup to the list.


button because I'm lazy.



On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 20:38, Terry Reedy  wrote:


As I said before, I am using Ignore Thread to ignore these threads.
Please stop evading my wishes by sending me private discourtesy copies.
   At least 3 people have done that when *not* responding to anything I
wrote.



--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Re: Problems with dict subclassing performance

[Barney Gale]

Can someone please ban Marco? Temp ban would work fine.

Thanks

Barney

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 21:24, Marco Sulla 
wrote:

> Anyway, Cannon, don't take it personal. I accuse the entire system,
> the whole CoC council.
>
> Indeed I was also fired some times ago from the python-ideas list:
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/KV4K4KS4MYTP5T5W5XKZYENGHCJYWOFR/
>
> The reasons?
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/VJMO4HOZGFCAKY2WA2RACHITPECFDKQ7/
>
> Because I responded to "Apparently you didn't read the post" with
> "Apparently you don't know Python". A bit too sarcastic, I admit, but
> enough to ban a person? Furthermore, I ended the post with "KISSes".
> This was considered a **rude** joke. From when KISS is considered
> rude???
>
> Another problematic post:
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/GKBF4NKVBASKUN7YJS6GDIMUUSAY7T2A/
>
> Because I wanted to be respectful and I didn't know about this stupid
> rule here that "mister" is considered an insult X-D
>
> Another:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/X3SGPDEFJHKSNYXIW66AWJOW3PAKCOGQ/
>
> Because I said that first() is sexy. Sexualized language. Every
> serious programmer knows that "sexy" is another way to say "syntactic
> sugar".
>
> Another one:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/QSMZKLQI47MZXDNXZ4HDOMDHEQLFUJYL/
> because I said "I can change my mind, I'm not a member of Daesh." Odd
> reference to an extremist organization. This is so ridiculous that I
> won't comment.
>
> I tried to defend myself by posting to conduct...@python.org . They
> never responded to me. So don't take it personal, Cannon.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Problems with dict subclassing performance

[Marco Sulla]

Anyway, Cannon, don't take it personal. I accuse the entire system,
the whole CoC council.

Indeed I was also fired some times ago from the python-ideas list:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/KV4K4KS4MYTP5T5W5XKZYENGHCJYWOFR/

The reasons?

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/VJMO4HOZGFCAKY2WA2RACHITPECFDKQ7/

Because I responded to "Apparently you didn't read the post" with
"Apparently you don't know Python". A bit too sarcastic, I admit, but
enough to ban a person? Furthermore, I ended the post with "KISSes".
This was considered a **rude** joke. From when KISS is considered
rude???

Another problematic post:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/GKBF4NKVBASKUN7YJS6GDIMUUSAY7T2A/

Because I wanted to be respectful and I didn't know about this stupid
rule here that "mister" is considered an insult X-D

Another: 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/X3SGPDEFJHKSNYXIW66AWJOW3PAKCOGQ/

Because I said that first() is sexy. Sexualized language. Every
serious programmer knows that "sexy" is another way to say "syntactic
sugar".

Another one: 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/QSMZKLQI47MZXDNXZ4HDOMDHEQLFUJYL/
because I said "I can change my mind, I'm not a member of Daesh." Odd
reference to an extremist organization. This is so ridiculous that I
won't comment.

I tried to defend myself by posting to conduct...@python.org . They
never responded to me. So don't take it personal, Cannon.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Marco Sulla]

I think you're writing to me. I simply clicked the "Reply to all"
button because I'm lazy. And that's me that is polemic? X-D
Furthermore you already replied to this topic before my intervention,
so this makes me laugh doubly X-D
Who's the spammer? Let the people decide

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 20:38, Terry Reedy  wrote:
>
> As I said before, I am using Ignore Thread to ignore these threads.
> Please stop evading my wishes by sending me private discourtesy copies.
>   At least 3 people have done that when *not* responding to anything I
> wrote.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10?

[Christian Tismer-Sperling]

On 26.04.21 23:55, Irit Katriel via Python-Dev wrote:
> 
> Re https://bugs.python.org/issue40608 .
> 
> I think it will be an act of kindness to
> deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10 and tell people to
> use Py_TRASHCAN_BEGIN/END instead.
> 
> TL;DR: There was a change in 3.8 that introduced the latter while
> leaving the former for backwards compatibility, but also inadvertently
> breaking them. This is not an easy bug to deal with in the wild, we
> found it because we have a unit test in our codebase referencing
> https://bugs.python.org/issue16602 . 
> A deprecation note pointing to the new macros would have made it easier.
> 
> Is there any reason not to deprecate the old macros?


Just a note (I'm happy that this old code is still in use :) ),
can't we think of replacing it somehow by functions in the case
of the Limited API? The API is so often used that it would make sense
to _always_ don't crash deeply nested structures.

Or do you think it makes no sense at all? Then let's turn it
into a no-op. But the current mixed situation is not really pleasant.

-- 
Christian Tismer-Sperling:^)   tis...@stackless.com
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Strandstraße 37  : https://github.com/PySide
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Marco Sulla]

I agree with you, and I would say that all this chaos will be avoided,
if people leave the discussion between me and Steven alone. You can't
say "I'm sick of spamming" if you put logs on the fire.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Terry Reedy]

As I said before, I am using Ignore Thread to ignore these threads. 
Please stop evading my wishes by sending me private discourtesy copies. 
 At least 3 people have done that when *not* responding to anything I 
wrote.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Tim Peters]

[me]
> If you want more active moderation, volunteer for the job. I'd happily
> give it up, and acknowledge that my laissez-faire moderation approach
> is out of style.

But, please, don't tell _me_ off-list that you volunteer. I want no
say in who would become a new moderator - I'm already doing the job as
I believe it's _best_ done. "Hands off" as much as possible.

So if the community disagrees, they need to work out among themselves
"the rules" for what should be suppressed, and pick moderators they
believe will enforce those rules.

I'm old, and cut my online discussion teeth via Usenet. It was total
chaos, and I came to appreciate that deeply. Nobody was silenced by a
central authority, but then again nobody could insist on being heard
either. News readers quickly grew rather sophisticated notions of
"killfiles", which allowed a user to quickly render posters they found
useless, and/or toxic threads, and/or ... (anything that could be
identified by a web of user-supplied regular expressions) completely
invisible to them.

The unsolvable problem I see with trying to ask a moderator to do that
for everyone at once is that, to stop complaints about over-permissive
moderation, the moderator would have to emulate the union of all list
members' killfiles (had they ability to make their own), not their
intersection. And then essentially no messages would be approved. You
think I'm joking, but, e.g., back in the day I knew someone who
killefiled every poster who had a surname that "sounded Armenian". And
you better believe that _some_ people today would insist that _this_
message be suppressed because "killfile" evokes violence.

Me, I'd consider suppressing it only because I generally find very
little value in meta-posts, which this post _about_ python-dev
moderation is ;-)
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[Python-Dev] Re: Deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10?

[Duncan Grisby]

On Tue, 2021-08-17 at 12:14 +0100, Irit Katriel wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 12:05 PM Duncan Grisby 
> wrote:
> > I don't know if it is pertinent to this at all, but I
> > raised https://bugs.python.org/issue9 in which the faulthandler
> > module can lead to a segfault inside Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN. Would
> > that be avoided if frameobject.c was changed to use
> > Py_TRASHCAN_BEGIN / END?
> > 
> 
> 
> We just changed frameobject.c to use the new macros. Can you check? 
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/27683

Thanks. Victor Stinner has now commented on the defect I raised to say
that it is actually a bug in the traceback module, in that it should
not be using Py_DECREF at all inside a signal handler. The fact that it
leads to use of the old trashcan macros is not the cause of the crash
that I saw.

I therefore don't think it's necessary for me to check with the updated
frameobject.c. Do you agree?  I can try to reproduce the situation, but
I can't just quickly test it because the infrastructure where the crash
was seen is now being used for other things.

Duncan.


-- 
Duncan Grisby 
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[Python-Dev] Re: Deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10?

[Duncan Grisby]

On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 11:41 +0100, Irit Katriel wrote:
> Well, in order to verify that we fixed the problem you reported we
> need to be able to test the fix and see that the problem is gone. 
> Right now we have two theories of what the cause could be, because
> there are two known bugs in that area. But you may have stumbled upon
> an unrelated third bug.
> 
> The best scenario is that we close a bpo issue because we can
> reproduce the bug and see that it has been fixed. When that's not
> possible, there will come a point where we will close it and say "the
> code has changed since you observed the problem and we fixed things
> that could have caused it. Please open a new issue if you still see
> this bug".

That's fair. I'll do my best to reproduce it and see which (if either)
change resolves it.

Duncan.

-- 
Duncan Grisby 
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Marco Sulla]

Excuse me all for the useless back-and-forth... I can assure you I'm
the last person who wanted it. But if someone insults me, I reply.
Anyway, this will not last long. Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Martin Dengler]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:36:00PM -0400, Jonathan Goble wrote:

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:22 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:


On 8/18/2021 9:37 PM, Edwin Zimmerman wrote:
> On 8/18/21 9:18 PM, Jonathan Goble wrote:
>> I am mostly a lurker, but I am also considering unsubscribing if
someone doesn't step in and stop the mess
>
> +1

Both the email and newsreader parts of Thunderbird have an option called
Ignore Thread.  Do your readers have such?



I consume my email from a variety of disparate devices, including a Debian
laptop, a Windows desktop, a Chromebook, an Android phone, and various
university-managed computer labs. As such, and as I rely heavily on Gmail's
filtering and labeling system to manage my email, I rely solely on Google's
standard web interface and Android app for Gmail for the sake of a
consistent experience across devices. I don't know if Google offers such an
option. It takes me about three seconds to click a thread, see the arguing,
and click Archive, but I'm getting tired of doing that repeatedly.


https://gsuitetips.com/tips/gmail/how-to-mute-and-find-email-conversations/


To mute an email thread, simply:
- Within Gmail:
- Open the email conversation you want to mute
- Click more and in the drop down menu select mute
[...]

When a conversation is muted, any new message will bypass your inbox so
that the conversation stays archived. Muted conversations will reappear in
your inbox if a new message in the conversation is addressed to you and no
one else, or if you're added to the "To" or "Cc" line in a new message.


Does that fix your problem?

Martin
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[Python-Dev] Re: Deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10?

[Irit Katriel via Python-Dev]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:28 AM Duncan Grisby

> Thanks. Victor Stinner has now commented on the defect I raised to say
> that it is actually a bug in the traceback module, in that it should not be
> using Py_DECREF at all inside a signal handler. The fact that it leads to
> use of the old trashcan macros is not the cause of the crash that I saw.
>
> I therefore don't think it's necessary for me to check with the updated
> frameobject.c. Do you agree?  I can try to reproduce the situation, but I
> can't just quickly test it because the infrastructure where the crash was
> seen is now being used for other things.
>


Well, in order to verify that we fixed the problem you reported we need to
be able to test the fix and see that the problem is gone.  Right now we
have two theories of what the cause could be, because there are two known
bugs in that area. But you may have stumbled upon an unrelated third bug.

The best scenario is that we close a bpo issue because we can reproduce the
bug and see that it has been fixed. When that's not possible, there will
come a point where we will close it and say "the code has changed since you
observed the problem and we fixed things that could have caused it. Please
open a new issue if you still see this bug".
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[Python-Dev] Re: Deprecate Py_TRASHCAN_SAFE_BEGIN/END in 3.10?

[Łukasz Langa]

> On 18 Aug 2021, at 11:47, Irit Katriel  wrote:
> 
> It remains the decide how to backport the compiler warning to older versions, 
> and to which versions.

3.8 is when the macros broke. Since they cause segfaults, I'd say that's a 
pretty good reason to backport the warnings. While 3.8 in security-only fix 
mode, I think there's no issue with showing the "pending" deprecation in the 
to-be-released 3.8.12. And if that, then 3.9.7, and 3.10.0rc2 as well. Of 
course, for the latter we need Pablo's confirmation.

The additional argument for it is that we backported GH-27683 (using new macros 
in frameobject.c) all the way back to 3.8. So building Python itself shouldn't 
start raising the deprecation warnings itself. But if it does, we'll just fix 
that as well.

- Ł


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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Greg Ewing]

On 19/08/21 7:23 pm, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

The whole thing is ridiculous enough to read like a Monty Python skit by
now, but the trout-slapping ending is still missing.


Just have the police come in and arrest everyone, that
usually works.

--
Greg
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[Python-Dev] Re: Dropping out of this list

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 21:14:22 -0500
Tim Peters  wrote:
> Various variations on:
> 
> > ... I am also considering unsubscribing if someone doesn't step in and stop
> > the mess going on between Brett and Marco. ...  
> 
> Overall, "me too!" pile-ons _are_ "the [bulk of the] mess" to most
> list subscribers.
> 
> It will die out on its own in time. Dr. Brett should know by now that
> he'll never get the "last word" with Dr. Marco, And everyone should
> know by now that Dr. Marco won't let anyone else get the last word
> either ;-)

The whole thing is ridiculous enough to read like a Monty Python skit by
now, but the trout-slapping ending is still missing.

> As a matter of courtesy, though, it's less disruptive to the list
> membership if you just unsubscribe rather than announce to the 3,585
> list members that you're considering unsubscribing ;-)

Ok, let me announce that I don't consider unsubscribing because someone
made a mess of themselves in public. ;-)

Regards

Antoine.


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