Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I didn't mean to say that this
> version should work on both python 2.x and python 3.x. Ideally, there
> would be a PIL distribution for 2.x only and another one for 3.x only.

I don't know what Fredrik thinks, but I would not consider this ideal.
Ideally, there would be a single source that can be installed to both
2.x and 3.x. This is much better than two source trees, as the latter
would require porting of changes back and forth.

> The only thing is that people (myself included) will only be
> comfortable with the PIL for 3.x version if it comes with the
> blessings of Fredrik, i.e. if I were you I'd try pushing this with
> Fredrik. 

I don't think a GSoC project can possibly help with that.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I don't disagree, I just don't want to volunteer projects for something
> they don't want.

Right, there must be clear indication that they are willing to accept
the work when it's done.

> Note also that some of the largest Python-based projects, Django,

I have a working port of Django to Py3k, however, the Django authors
are not interested in integrating it. The same could easily happen to
other ports. I can accept that, and just wait a couple of years until
they are ready. The GSoC student can't really wait that long.

OTOH, it could be part of the student's application to get in
contact with a potential mentor, and we could prioritize porting
projects assuming the package authors indicate sufficient intent to
accept the results of the porting.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[C. Titus Brown]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 03:18:00PM -0700, average wrote:
-> > Summer of Code is ramping up. ?Every year the common complaint is that not
-> > enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
-> > reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
-> > students is a link to the PEP index.
-> >
-> > The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably 
occupy
-> > them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
-> > demonstrated. ?They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the 
Summer
-> > fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer
-> > of Code is about code, not documentation.
-> 
-> Improve doctest by allowing it to be aware of nested test scopes such
-> that a variable defined at "class-level scope" (i.e. the variable b
-> defined at the class-level doctest """>>> b=Bag("abacab")""") can be
-> used in "method-level scopes" without re-defining it every time for
-> each method's doctest (each method would reset the given variable (if
-> used) to its original state rather than live mutated between
-> equal-level scopes).
-> 
-> Would be a great improvement for doctest in my opinion--both in
-> ease-of-use, and reduction of redundant, error-prone ("did you define
-> your test variable the same in each method?") code)--as well as other
-> benefits.
-> 
-> Appreciate any consideration...

Hi Marcos,

my primary concern here would be that the student would do all this work
and then python-dev would reject it for incorporation into core!  Plus
it's probably not a summer-long project.

If, however, you wanted to suggest a general "gather disparate doctest
features and integrate them, for consideration for the core" project, I
would definitely recommend posting that as a possible project on the
Python GSoC site.  I know that zope has done some good doctest stuff,
for example; the 'testing-in-python' list would be a good place to go
for finding out more.

Note, you don't have to offer to be the mentor to post it, but it would
help ;)

cheers,
--titus
-- 
C. Titus Brown, c...@msu.edu
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[Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[average]

> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
> students is a link to the PEP index.
>
> The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy
> them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
> demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the Summer
> fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer
> of Code is about code, not documentation.

Improve doctest by allowing it to be aware of nested test scopes such
that a variable defined at "class-level scope" (i.e. the variable b
defined at the class-level doctest """>>> b=Bag("abacab")""") can be
used in "method-level scopes" without re-defining it every time for
each method's doctest (each method would reset the given variable (if
used) to its original state rather than live mutated between
equal-level scopes).

Would be a great improvement for doctest in my opinion--both in
ease-of-use, and reduction of redundant, error-prone ("did you define
your test variable the same in each method?") code)--as well as other
benefits.

Appreciate any consideration...

marcos
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

If it's organized in time we could scoop up some of the SoC applicants who
we'll like to have but we won't have slots for

Honestly I like the idea of competitions.  Better publicity, the greater
prizes will draw out some better minds from the community, and competitions
based on quality will help ensure usable code.  They could vary in reward
based on how difficult the problem is and perhaps have some Python swag as
runner-up prizes.

It'd also be a great way to promote Python 3.


On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:

> Arc Riley wrote:
> >
> > That makes it a much better candidate for GHOP that SoC, which
> requires
> > projects with a little more meat on them.
> >
> >
> > Yes it does.
> >
> > Though many organizations have taken to funding their own GHOPs.
> > Perhaps this year PSF can use the SoC funds ($500/student) to host a
> > bounty-sprint program much like GHOP?
> >
> > IIRC, GHOP paid $100 per 3 tasks.  With the economy in the tank this
> > could attract a lot more than highschool students.  Honestly I wish SoC
> > was structured more like GHOP, it seemed much more effective and for the
> > same funding could run year-round.
> >
> > Or the same funds could be used to host various optimization
> > competitions, replacement Py3 extension/type/function must match API and
> > pass unit testing.  Fastest solution wins (ie) $1000 and fame for the
> > person or team that submitted it.
> >
> > Something to keep in mind and for the PSF board to ponder for this Fall.
> >
> Why wait until Fall if it's a good idea? The summer vacation would
> surely be the ideal time for this, and that would mean we should start
> planning soon.
>
> Anyway, the first requirement would be some enthusiasm from the
> developer team for mobilizing such a potential source of assistance.
>
> regards
>  Steve
> --
> Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
> Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
> Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Steve Holden]

Arc Riley wrote:
> 
> That makes it a much better candidate for GHOP that SoC, which requires
> projects with a little more meat on them.
> 
> 
> Yes it does.
> 
> Though many organizations have taken to funding their own GHOPs. 
> Perhaps this year PSF can use the SoC funds ($500/student) to host a
> bounty-sprint program much like GHOP?
> 
> IIRC, GHOP paid $100 per 3 tasks.  With the economy in the tank this
> could attract a lot more than highschool students.  Honestly I wish SoC
> was structured more like GHOP, it seemed much more effective and for the
> same funding could run year-round.
> 
> Or the same funds could be used to host various optimization
> competitions, replacement Py3 extension/type/function must match API and
> pass unit testing.  Fastest solution wins (ie) $1000 and fame for the
> person or team that submitted it.
> 
> Something to keep in mind and for the PSF board to ponder for this Fall.
> 
Why wait until Fall if it's a good idea? The summer vacation would
surely be the ideal time for this, and that would mean we should start
planning soon.

Anyway, the first requirement would be some enthusiasm from the
developer team for mobilizing such a potential source of assistance.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

> That makes it a much better candidate for GHOP that SoC, which requires
> projects with a little more meat on them.


Yes it does.

Though many organizations have taken to funding their own GHOPs.  Perhaps
this year PSF can use the SoC funds ($500/student) to host a bounty-sprint
program much like GHOP?

IIRC, GHOP paid $100 per 3 tasks.  With the economy in the tank this could
attract a lot more than highschool students.  Honestly I wish SoC was
structured more like GHOP, it seemed much more effective and for the same
funding could run year-round.

Or the same funds could be used to host various optimization competitions,
replacement Py3 extension/type/function must match API and pass unit
testing.  Fastest solution wins (ie) $1000 and fame for the person or team
that submitted it.

Something to keep in mind and for the PSF board to ponder for this Fall.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Steve Holden]

Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> Another thought:  it would be nice is pydoc were built-out with an
> alternate html generator that emitted clean, simple html
> with the appropriate div/span tags so that CSS can be used
> to control formatting.  Right now, all of the formatting and
> color coding is in-line.  If you don't like the appearance of
> the output, the module is unusable.  This is likely a two to
> three day project, easy and fun.
> 
That makes it a much better candidate for GHOP that SoC, which requires
projects with a little more meat on them.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Raymond Hettinger]

Another thought:  it would be nice is pydoc were built-out with 
an alternate html generator that emitted clean, simple html

with the appropriate div/span tags so that CSS can be used
to control formatting.  Right now, all of the formatting and
color coding is in-line.  If you don't like the appearance of
the output, the module is unusable.  This is likely a two to
three day project, easy and fun.


Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Daniel Fetchinson]

> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that
> not
> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a
> big
> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
> students is a link to the PEP index.
>
> So let's make this year different.
>
> Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30
> hours
> a
> week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.
>
> The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably
> occupy
> them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
> demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the
> Summer
> fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that
> Summer
> of Code is about code, not documentation.
>
> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
> http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release
> cycle,
> optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of
> you
> working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.
>
> PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
> student applications are open is for students to talk to their
> prospective
> mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much
> time
> to get core project ideas together.

 How about porting PIL to 3.0?
 There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including
 mine
 :))

>>>
>>> I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far
>>> from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git
>>> repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with
>>> some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them),
>>> but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't
>>> want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least).
>>
>> I did a "git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git" but it failed:
>>
>> gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out
>> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out)
>> fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed.
>>
>
> Thanks for noticing that, maybe more people had this same problem
> then, I will consider using github or some similar service (or maybe
> take the chance to bazaar, or mercurial, or svn, or..).
>
>> By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people
>> mostly are waiting for an "official" PIL release that is known to be
>> stable. Did you try making your port part of the "official" PIL
>> distribution?
>>
>
> I have talked with Fredrik, he said he would be running it on another
> test suite to check how much of it really works. But, no, I didn't
> really try pushing it to be integrated into the next PIL release and
> it also wouldn't be possible without distributing a py3k version only
> -- I didn't do the port with the ability to work in python 3.x and
> python 2.x but this can be arranged.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I didn't mean to say that this
version should work on both python 2.x and python 3.x. Ideally, there
would be a PIL distribution for 2.x only and another one for 3.x only.
The only thing is that people (myself included) will only be
comfortable with the PIL for 3.x version if it comes with the
blessings of Fredrik, i.e. if I were you I'd try pushing this with
Fredrik. After all if all tests pass including the ones Fredrik has
for himself, there should be no problem and I suppose he would be
happy to have a PIL for python 3.x.

Until then I'd be happy to check out your own port, whenever you have
a working repository copy please let us know.

Cheers,
Daniel

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Guilherme Polo]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Daniel Fetchinson
 wrote:
 Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that
 not
 enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
 reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
 students is a link to the PEP index.

 So let's make this year different.

 Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours
 a
 week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.

 The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably
 occupy
 them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
 demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the
 Summer
 fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that
 Summer
 of Code is about code, not documentation.

 I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
 http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release
 cycle,
 optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
 working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.

 PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
 student applications are open is for students to talk to their
 prospective
 mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much
 time
 to get core project ideas together.
>>>
>>> How about porting PIL to 3.0?
>>> There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine
>>> :))
>>>
>>
>> I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far
>> from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git
>> repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with
>> some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them),
>> but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't
>> want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least).
>
> I did a "git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git" but it failed:
>
> gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out
> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out)
> fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed.
>

Thanks for noticing that, maybe more people had this same problem
then, I will consider using github or some similar service (or maybe
take the chance to bazaar, or mercurial, or svn, or..).

> By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people
> mostly are waiting for an "official" PIL release that is known to be
> stable. Did you try making your port part of the "official" PIL
> distribution?
>

I have talked with Fredrik, he said he would be running it on another
test suite to check how much of it really works. But, no, I didn't
really try pushing it to be integrated into the next PIL release and
it also wouldn't be possible without distributing a py3k version only
-- I didn't do the port with the ability to work in python 3.x and
python 2.x but this can be arranged.

> Cheers,
> Daniel
>
>
> --
> Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

Regards,

-- 
-- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Daniel Fetchinson]

>>> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that
>>> not
>>> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
>>> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
>>> students is a link to the PEP index.
>>>
>>> So let's make this year different.
>>>
>>> Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours
>>> a
>>> week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.
>>>
>>> The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably
>>> occupy
>>> them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
>>> demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the
>>> Summer
>>> fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that
>>> Summer
>>> of Code is about code, not documentation.
>>>
>>> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
>>> http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release
>>> cycle,
>>> optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
>>> working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.
>>>
>>> PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
>>> student applications are open is for students to talk to their
>>> prospective
>>> mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much
>>> time
>>> to get core project ideas together.
>>
>> How about porting PIL to 3.0?
>> There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine
>> :))
>>
>
> I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far
> from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git
> repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with
> some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them),
> but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't
> want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least).

I did a "git clone git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git" but it failed:

gpolo.ath.cx[0: 189.7.18.241]: errno=Connection timed out
fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out)
fetch-pack from 'git://gpolo.ath.cx/pil-py3k.git' failed.

By the way the reason I think few people checked it out is that people
mostly are waiting for an "official" PIL release that is known to be
stable. Did you try making your port part of the "official" PIL
distribution?

Cheers,
Daniel


-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

Feel free to email wi...@bluesock.org or me with your ideas if the markup is
difficult to work with.  We've been on wiki duty all afternoon.

description, any specific skills they'll need (special library, compiler
theory, etc), what mentor should they talk to if they're interested.

The markup complexity makes it much easier for students to navigate while
including the info Google suggested.  I'm hoping someone from the python web
team will add the CSS class we need to greatly simplify it.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz wrote:

> Arc Riley wrote:
> > The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for
> > http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed
> up
> > at http://socghop.appspot.com/
>
> Any chance that we can keep
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 light on markup? I
> simply can't add a 'tidy struct and finish buffer interface/bytearray
> details' proposal as it is :/
>
> Daniel
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Arc Riley wrote:
> The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up
> at http://socghop.appspot.com/

Any chance that we can keep
http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 light on markup? I
simply can't add a 'tidy struct and finish buffer interface/bytearray
details' proposal as it is :/

Daniel
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Steve Holden]

Arc Riley wrote:
> I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project
> (plus many more suggesting "port X to Python 3" as project ideas).
> 
> Note the SoC timeline;
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
> 
> So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?
> 
Let's not forget that we could (fairly easily?) make an interim release
of a 3.1-based 2to3 before adding in anything 3.2-specific, so there's
no reason why a SoC project shouldn't work, with a release after the
project (perhaps as a patch to 3.1 installations) and hence over a year
before 3.2. Or perhaps a 3.1.1 release could incorporate the more
advanced 2to3 features with the same 3.1 language ...

> We should have many ideas up for students to consider.  The more student
> who apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many
> students we get total.
> 
> As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student,
> preferably two.  These should be people familiar with and actively
> working in the area the student would be.  We're putting mentor contact
> info on the wiki so potential students can hash out the details with
> them before applying.
> 
Realistically I am not sure I will have time to mentor, but if you need
any help from the PSF please feel free to get in touch. Thanks for
taking this challenging role up on behalf of the Python community.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Steve Holden]

Arc Riley wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski  > wrote:
> 
> I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining
> libraries instead of just proposing "let's make some poor student port
> it to py3k", but I might be just wrong, I don't know.
> 
> 
> I agree.  Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so
> they stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our
> project as the #2 committer, but he's an exception.
> 
> Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a
> student.  As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the
> most familiar person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick
> with new features or optimization and coordinate the migration process
> as a group-wide effort.
> 
> I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-)  We need
> a couple more at least.
> 
> If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop
> primarily in Py3?) is something that's wanted, who would be a good
> mentor for it?
> 
We also need projects for people who may want to do some coding and then
just walk away - the SoC experience might teach them that programming
isn't for them ;-)

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Want to know? Come to PyCon - soon! http://us.pycon.org/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Benjamin Peterson]

2009/3/18 Arc Riley :
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>>
>> I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be
>> 18 by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at
>> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibility
>> seems to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know.
>>
>> Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to
>> do by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better).
>
> This isn't a problem.  Drupal had a GHOP (SoC for highschool students)
> mentor who was too young to be a student (11 or 12 at the time), I believe
> Dmitri also served them as a SoC mentor, I know several SoC mentors are
> teenagers.

Excellent!

>
> I'd rather we find a different primary mentor for each student, it'd be best
> if every student had a backup mentor in-place from the start as well, but
> one person can be a contact point for many ideas.
>
> Ben, would you be OK with being a contact point for 3to2 as well?  We'll
> figure out who's mentoring who once we see student apps and decide which
> ones we want mentored this year.

Sure.



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Nick Coghlan]

C. Titus Brown wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 09:24:25PM +, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> -> Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be 
> related to
> -> some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module 
> could
> -> welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, 
> probably
> -> others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not 
> needing
> -> any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be 
> appropriate
> -> for an outsider.
> 
> Hi Antoine,
> 
> interesting idea -- but I've seen too many arguments about what the
> *right* functionality to add to unittest would be to want to give it to
> a student.  I think a student would probably not be willing or able to
> fight the battles necessary to get his/her changes into the core...

Yeah, that was my thought on that specific example as well - since there
isn't anyone to say "we're doing it this way" for the unittest module
the way we have with the language itself (i.e. Guido) or with other
modules (e.g. Raymond for itertools, Vinay for logging), unittest
improvement discussions tend to get stuck on the details :P

If an existing module has a strong owner that can say yes/no to large
changes then work in that area can be a good student project (especially
if the owner can serve as the mentor). But modules with only collective
python-dev responsibility can be tricky to work on more from the social
angle rather than the technical one.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Guilherme Polo]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Daniel Fetchinson
 wrote:
>> Hey guys/gals
>>
>> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
>> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
>> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
>> students is a link to the PEP index.
>>
>> So let's make this year different.
>>
>> Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a
>> week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.
>>
>> The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy
>> them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
>> demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the Summer
>> fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer
>> of Code is about code, not documentation.
>>
>> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
>> http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle,
>> optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
>> working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.
>>
>> PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
>> student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective
>> mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time
>> to get core project ideas together.
>
> How about porting PIL to 3.0?
> There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :))
>

I have ported it to the stage where its tests passes (which are far
from covering all the code) and some of my own tests, there is a git
repo on the image-sig that points to it. I wasn't really careful with
some of the things (and I would even consider redoing some of them),
but only one or two people got a copy of it so apparently people don't
want/need it on python 3.0 just yet (not it alone at least).

> Cheers,
> Daniel
>
>
> --
> Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Raymond Hettinger  wrote:

> Without help, it is going to take a long time to get many packages
> converted to 3.x.


I don't disagree, I just don't want to volunteer projects for something they
don't want.

Unless I misunderstand the situation, PIL doesn't seem applicable for SoC
given that their development tree is closed/proprietary (only free releases
are available under a free license).
Does anyone here work with PIL or can provide further insight into their Py3
plans?

Note also that some of the largest Python-based projects, Django, Mercurial,
Plone/Zope, Scons, etc, are setup as their own SoC mentoring orgs.  Only
Mercurial has Py3 migration on their ideas list.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Raymond Hettinger]

  As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar 
 person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features 
or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort.


Without help, it is going to take a long time to get many packages converted to 
3.x.
I think the students can be invaluable in this process.  Ideally, they will 
tweak
the 2.6 code until it converts cleanly using 2-to-3.  That sort of work will be
easy to maintain.

IMO, this is the most important thing that can be done for Python at the moment.
I would much rather this sort of work than having a student build a new library
module and then not be around to maintain it.


Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Daniel Fetchinson]

> Hey guys/gals
>
> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
> students is a link to the PEP index.
>
> So let's make this year different.
>
> Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a
> week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.
>
> The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy
> them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
> demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the Summer
> fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer
> of Code is about code, not documentation.
>
> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
> http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle,
> optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
> working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.
>
> PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
> student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective
> mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time
> to get core project ideas together.

How about porting PIL to 3.0?
There were many such requests on python-list and image-sig (including mine :))

Cheers,
Daniel


-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
> I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be
> 18 by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibilityseems
>  to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know.
>
> Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to
> do by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better).
>

This isn't a problem.  Drupal had a GHOP (SoC for highschool students)
mentor who was too young to be a student (11 or 12 at the time), I believe
Dmitri also served them as a SoC mentor, I know several SoC mentors are
teenagers.

I'd rather we find a different primary mentor for each student, it'd be best
if every student had a backup mentor in-place from the start as well, but
one person can be a contact point for many ideas.

Ben, would you be OK with being a contact point for 3to2 as well?  We'll
figure out who's mentoring who once we see student apps and decide which
ones we want mentored this year.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Brett Cannon]

2009/3/18 Arc Riley 

> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
>
>> I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining
>> libraries instead of just proposing "let's make some poor student port
>> it to py3k", but I might be just wrong, I don't know.
>
>
> I agree.  Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so they
> stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our project as
> the #2 committer, but he's an exception.
>
> Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a student.
> As a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar
> person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features
> or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort.
>
> I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-)  We need a
> couple more at least.
>
> If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop
> primarily in Py3?)


Exactly. The semantics are cleaner in 3.x, suggesting it would be easier to
backport it to 2.x.


> is something that's wanted, who would be a good mentor for it?


Benjamin has done the most work on 2to3 recently. Thomas Wouters originally
came up with the idea for 3to2 but I suspect he doesn't want to mentor.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 14:56, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

> 2009/3/18 Arc Riley :
> >> > Note the SoC timeline;
> >> >
> >> >
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
> >> >
> >> > So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?
> >>
> >> Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely
> >> open.
> >
> > Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested
> students.
> >
> > Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and
> > possibly mentor one?
>
> Certainly



I would double-check Benjamin can do this since I don't think he will be 18
by the time GSoC starts. The FAQ at
http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/faqs#mentor_eligibilityseems
to suggest it won't be an issue, but you never know.

Also be aware that a university student might not like being told what to do
by someone in high school (although if they want $4500 they better).

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:

> I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining
> libraries instead of just proposing "let's make some poor student port
> it to py3k", but I might be just wrong, I don't know.


I agree.  Part of Summer of Code is about getting students involved so they
stick around, and heck my second SoC student is still with our project as
the #2 committer, but he's an exception.

Also, we need the projects involved to want the tasks done by a student.  As
a project maintainer I wouldn't want an intern being the most familiar
person with our Py3 migration, I'd rather students stick with new features
or optimization and coordinate the migration process as a group-wide effort.

I added the 2to3 improvement idea to the list, a good start :-)  We need a
couple more at least.

If a 3to2 tool (for backporting Py3 code to Py2, so projects can develop
primarily in Py3?) is something that's wanted, who would be a good mentor
for it?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Brett Cannon]

2009/3/18 Terry Reedy 

> R. David Murray wrote:
>
>  How about improving 2to3?  Seems like that could be an interesting,
>> challenging, useful, and rewarding project :).
>>
>
> Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools.


I'm not in a position to mentor this, but I too think this would be a great
thing to have.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

>
> While working on the core is admirable, I think gsoc would provide an
> opportunity to port important Python libraries to 3.x. It's important
> to remember that doing ports helps the core immensely by uncovering
> 2to3 and py3k bugs.
>

Hello.

It's a very noble task to have important python libraries ported to
python 3.x. I've played almost whole last year with porting important
python libraries to work on different python interpreters (running the
same version of python). They differ in tiny details, only a bit. And
guess what, it was not only hard, but also very tedious. And now
consider student, who looks for joy and is facing python library (say
medium, couple tens of k lines of code). With help of 2to3 is getting
something that almost works on top of python 3. Except for few small
details. This probably means couple weeks spend on debugging obscure
failures that end up depending on different string representation of
exception or something like that. Assuming he knows python well enough
to understand not only major differences (which are handled  by 2to3
anyway), but also all minor ones. And those tiny which makes you
wonder why unicode subclasses and string subclasses are not exactly
behaving how they're defined in a spec.

Suppose student is smart and likes debugging and it's all working. Now
the question is, who will maintain the resulting library? Will
original team of say twisted maintain it or will it be up to student?
Will it just rot in a corner? Who'll maintain buildbots for that?

I think we need to ask first guys who spend their live maintaining
libraries instead of just proposing "let's make some poor student port
it to py3k", but I might be just wrong, I don't know.

Cheers,
fijal
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[C. Titus Brown]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 09:24:25PM +, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
-> Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be 
related to
-> some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module could
-> welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, 
probably
-> others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not 
needing
-> any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be appropriate
-> for an outsider.

Hi Antoine,

interesting idea -- but I've seen too many arguments about what the
*right* functionality to add to unittest would be to want to give it to
a student.  I think a student would probably not be willing or able to
fight the battles necessary to get his/her changes into the core...

cheers,
--titus
-- 
C. Titus Brown, c...@msu.edu
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Benjamin Peterson]

2009/3/18 Arc Riley :
>> > Note the SoC timeline;
>> >
>> > http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
>> >
>> > So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?
>>
>> Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely
>> open.
>
> Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested students.
>
> Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and
> possibly mentor one?

Certainly

>
> The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up
> at http://socghop.appspot.com/
>
> Students are already starting to look over the different organizations ideas
> pages and connect with mentors.  Student application period opens next
> week.  All the mentors for PSF read and review them and we assign mentors to
> them (often whatever mentor the student worked with to build the proposal).
>
> Do you want prospective students contacting the list or the mentor they're
> interested in working with directly?

IMO, mentors should get direct mail.



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

>
> > Note the SoC timeline;
> >
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
> >
> > So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?
>
> Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely
> open.


Cool, these are of course details you can work out with interested students.

Would you be willing to field questions from prospective students and
possibly mentor one?

The process is as follows; we're compiling ideas for
http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2009 and getting mentors signed up
at http://socghop.appspot.com/

Students are already starting to look over the different organizations ideas
pages and connect with mentors.  Student application period opens next
week.  All the mentors for PSF read and review them and we assign mentors to
them (often whatever mentor the student worked with to build the proposal).

Do you want prospective students contacting the list or the mentor they're
interested in working with directly?
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Benjamin Peterson]

2009/3/18 Arc Riley :
> I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project
> (plus many more suggesting "port X to Python 3" as project ideas).

Ok. That's excellent.

>
> Note the SoC timeline;
> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
>
> So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?

Well, there won't be any major changes in 3.1.1, but 3.2 is definitely open.

>
> We should have many ideas up for students to consider.  The more student who
> apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many students we get
> total.
>
> As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student,
> preferably two.  These should be people familiar with and actively working
> in the area the student would be.  We're putting mentor contact info on the
> wiki so potential students can hash out the details with them before
> applying.




-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

I've heard from four people that improving 2to3 would be a great project
(plus many more suggesting "port X to Python 3" as project ideas).

Note the SoC timeline;
http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline

So maybe it won't work for 3.1, but perhaps 3.1.1? 3.2?

We should have many ideas up for students to consider.  The more student who
apply and the more mentors we have ready determines how many students we get
total.

As part of this I should add, we need at least one mentor per student,
preferably two.  These should be people familiar with and actively working
in the area the student would be.  We're putting mentor contact info on the
wiki so potential students can hash out the details with them before
applying.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Antoine Pitrou]

Terry Reedy  udel.edu> writes:
> 
> Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools.

I didn't know there was such a request. I thought it was only a PyPy April fool.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Terry Reedy]

R. David Murray wrote:


How about improving 2to3?  Seems like that could be an interesting,
challenging, useful, and rewarding project :).


Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Antoine Pitrou]

Hello Arc,

Arc Riley  gmail.com> writes:
> 
> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on 
> http://svn.python.org
/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle, optimization possible all
over the place.

Well, first, it's too late for 3.1, which will (should) be out before July.
Second, all the eagerly needed optimization work on py3k has now been done.

A quick skim through the bug tracker's "performance" and "feature request"
tickets did not seem to yield anything interesting and big enough for a GSOC
project (although I could have overlooked something).

Rather than performance, I think some more interesting areas would be related to
some of the standard library modules. For instance, the unittest module could
welcome some new features (test discovery, support for skipped tests, probably
others that I'm forgetting about). Since this is pure Python stuff not needing
any deep experience with the interpreter's internals, it would be appropriate
for an outsider.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Benjamin Peterson]

2009/3/18 Arc Riley :
> Hey guys/gals

Thanks for organizing this!

>
> Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
> enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
> reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
> students is a link to the PEP index.

Well, there's a list of core projects on the wiki if remember correctly.

>
> I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
> http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle,
> optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
> working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.

(Just so you know, 3.1 is in http://svn.python.org/view/python/branches/py3k)

3.1 is scheduled to be released in June, so that's probably too early
for projects now. Of course, that doesn't take them out of the running
for 3.2.

One project I can think of off the top of my head is integrating ABCs
further into the interpreter (optimizing and probably rewriting the
abc module in C), so that C code can make use of them.

While working on the core is admirable, I think gsoc would provide an
opportunity to port important Python libraries to 3.x. It's important
to remember that doing ports helps the core immensely by uncovering
2to3 and py3k bugs.




-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[R. David Murray]

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 at 16:56, Arc Riley wrote:

Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
students is a link to the PEP index.

So let's make this year different.

Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a
week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.

The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy
them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the Summer


How about improving 2to3?  Seems like that could be an interesting,
challenging, useful, and rewarding project :).

--
R. David Murray   http://www.bitdance.com
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[Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

[Arc Riley]

Hey guys/gals

Summer of Code is ramping up.  Every year the common complaint is that not
enough Python core projects get proposed by students, and of course a big
reason for that is often the only encouragement we offer prospective
students is a link to the PEP index.

So let's make this year different.

Accepted students are paid a total of $4500 to work for roughly 30 hours a
week, 12 weeks, on their proposed project.

The challenge is finding project ideas for them that could reasonably occupy
them for the entire Summer and which the results of their work can be
demonstrated.  They're being paid for specific projects so "Spend the Summer
fixing bugs on the tracker" is a no-go, and Google has outlined that Summer
of Code is about code, not documentation.

I've seen and heard that a lot of work is still needed on
http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk both during the 3.1 release cycle,
optimization possible all over the place.  It'd be great if those of you
working closely with this can shout out some ideas, brainstorm a bit.

PSF was announced as one of the mentoring orgs today, this week before
student applications are open is for students to talk to their prospective
mentors and iron out the wrinkles in their plans, so there's not much time
to get core project ideas together.
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