[Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
works well:

https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/

I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!

To be honest, we got some issues when the new security-announce
mailing list was quickly migrated from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3, but
issues were quicky fixed as well.

Would it be possible to migrate python-dev to Mailman 3? Do you see
any blocker issue?

I sent to email to the Python postmaster as well.

Victor
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[Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Stefan Krah]

Barry Warsaw wrote:

> In fact, we come with plugins for mail-archive.com and MHonarc.

MHonarc output is nice, practically the same as pipermail:

   https://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2010/12/threads.html

If it is possible to enable (and maintain!) a MHonarc archive with just blue
links along with the new interface, everyone should be happy.



Stefan Krah



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:24:54 +0200
Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
> works well:
> 
> https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/
> 
> I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
> threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!

Personally, I really don't like that UI.  Is it possible to have a
pipermail-style UI as an alternative?

(I don't care about buildbot-status, but I do care about python-dev)

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Victor Stinner]

2017-10-26 12:01 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> Is it possible to have a
> pipermail-style UI as an alternative?

I don't know pipermail. Do you have an example?

I don't think that Mailman 3 gives the choice of the UI for archives.
I didn't ask anyone to write a new software. I only proposed to use
what we already have.

And yeah, I expect that some people will complain, as each time that
we make any kind of change :-) Each UI has advantages and drawbacks.

The main drawback of Mailman 2 archives is that discussions are
splitted between each month. It can be a pain to follow a long
discussion done in multiple months. Sadly, I don't know if Mailman 3
handles this case better :-D

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 26/10/2017 à 12:15, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> 2017-10-26 12:01 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
>> Is it possible to have a
>> pipermail-style UI as an alternative?
> 
> I don't know pipermail. Do you have an example?

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ :-)

> The main drawback of Mailman 2 archives is that discussions are
> splitted between each month. It can be a pain to follow a long
> discussion done in multiple months. Sadly, I don't know if Mailman 3
> handles this case better :-D

If I take
https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/thread/MZ7QOZM6V7OALPSYSNSIHGGSLXMQHCF2/
as an example, I don't think it will allow to follow a long discussion
*at all*.  Can you imagine a 100-message thread displayed that way?

The pipermail UI isn't perfect (the monthly segregation can be annoying
as you point out), but at least it has a synthetic and easy-to-navigate
tree view.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 26 October 2017 at 20:19, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
> Le 26/10/2017 à 12:15, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> > 2017-10-26 12:01 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> >> Is it possible to have a
> >> pipermail-style UI as an alternative?
> >
> > I don't know pipermail. Do you have an example?
>
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ :-)
>
> > The main drawback of Mailman 2 archives is that discussions are
> > splitted between each month. It can be a pain to follow a long
> > discussion done in multiple months. Sadly, I don't know if Mailman 3
> > handles this case better :-D
>
> If I take
> https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-status@
> python.org/thread/MZ7QOZM6V7OALPSYSNSIHGGSLXMQHCF2/
> as an example, I don't think it will allow to follow a long discussion
> *at all*.  Can you imagine a 100-message thread displayed that way?
>

If folks want to see MM3 in action with some more active lists, I'd suggest
looking at the Fedora MM3 instance, especially the main dev list:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/

There's a 100 message thread about Firefox 57 here, and it's no harder to
read than a long thread on any other web forum:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/K5HSROMAIMNYSJONB5EIAQKWKYNFYSHK/
(if you switch to the strictly chronological display, it's almost
*identical* to a web forum)

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WKEB6M7J2WTFJBZYD7AZ4JB6J2O6VEWK/
is an example of a thread that was first posted back in July, but then
updated more recently when the change slipped from F27 into F28.

If you look at the activity for a month, as in
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/2017/10/?count=50,
the archiver will show you a single entry for each thread active in that
month, with a link through to the consolidate archive view.

Pages for individual messages do exist (e.g.
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/HBA3O755BWRZMTDBBOCUHCKC3RREGTII/
), and I'd expect Aurelian to be amenable to accepting a PR at
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty if anyone was particularly keen to
add pipermail style forward/back buttons to those pages.

Similarly, I'd be surprised if anyone objected to a toggle on the thread
view page that allowed you to opt in to hiding the full message contents by
default (and hence get back to a more pipermail style
"Subject-lines-and-poster-details-only" overview).

Cheers,
Nick.

P.S. MM3 supports a multi-archiver design, so it would presumably also be
possible to write a static-HTML-only pipermail style archiver that ran in
parallel with the interactive web gateway.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 26/10/2017 à 14:40, Nick Coghlan a écrit :
> 
> If folks want to see MM3 in action with some more active lists, I'd
> suggest looking at the Fedora MM3 instance, especially the main dev
> list:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> There's a 100 message thread about Firefox 57 here, and it's no harder
> to read than a long thread on any other web forum:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/K5HSROMAIMNYSJONB5EIAQKWKYNFYSHK/
> (if you switch to the strictly chronological display, it's almost
> *identical* to a web forum)

Thanks for posting these examples.  The comparison with "other" web
forums is irrelevant, though, since we're talking about replacing the
pipermail UI (which is not laid out like a web forum, but as a dense
synthetic tree view).  IMHO, common web forums (I assume you're talking
the phpBB kind) are unfit for presenting a structured discussion and
they're not a very interesting point of comparison :-)

> Pages for individual messages do exist (e.g.
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/HBA3O755BWRZMTDBBOCUHCKC3RREGTII/
> ), and I'd expect Aurelian to be amenable to accepting a PR at
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty if anyone was particularly keen to
> add pipermail style forward/back buttons to those pages.

I have no doubt that it's possible to submit PRs to improve MM3's
current UI.  Still, someone has to do the work, and until it is done I
find that a migration would be detrimental to my personal use of the ML
archives.  YMMV :-)

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Paul Moore]

On 26 October 2017 at 10:24, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
> works well:
>
> https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/
>
> I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
> threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!
>
> To be honest, we got some issues when the new security-announce
> mailing list was quickly migrated from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3, but
> issues were quicky fixed as well.
>
> Would it be possible to migrate python-dev to Mailman 3? Do you see
> any blocker issue?
>
> I sent to email to the Python postmaster as well.

My only use of the pipermail archives is to find permanent URLs for
mails I want to refer people to. My usage goes as follows:

1. Google search for a post.
2. Paste in the URL to an email.

Or, if I have the post already (usually in my email client).

1. Check the date and subject of the post.
2. Go to the pipermail article by month, and scan the list for the
subject and author.
3. Click on the link, check it's the right email, copy the URL.
4. Paste it into my email.

I don't use the archives for reading. If the above two usages are
still available, I don't care. But in particular, the fact that
individual posts are searchable from Google is important to me. And in
the second usage, having a single scrollable webpage with no
extraneous data just subject/author and a bit of threading by
indentation speeds up my usage a lot - the UI you linked to (and the
monthly archive page with the initial lines of postings on it) is FAR
too cluttered to be usable for my purposes.

So basically, what I'm asking is what would be the support for the use
case "Find a permanent link to an archived article as fast as possible
based on subject/author or a Google search".

Finally, how would a transition be handled? I assume the old archives
would be retained, so would there be a cut-off date and people would
have to know to use the old or new archives based on the date of the
message?

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Donald Stufft]

> On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> The pipermail UI isn't perfect (the monthly segregation can be annoying
> as you point out), but at least it has a synthetic and easy-to-navigate
> tree view.

Pipermail is *horrible* and it’s tree view makes things actively harder to read 
in large part because once the depth of the tree gets beyond like,, 3? or so, 
it just gives up trying to make it a tree and starts rendering all descendants 
past a certain point as siblings in a nonsensical order making it impossible to 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 26/10/2017 à 16:01, Donald Stufft a écrit :
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou > > wrote:
>>
>> The pipermail UI isn't perfect (the monthly segregation can be annoying
>> as you point out), but at least it has a synthetic and easy-to-navigate
>> tree view.
> 
> Pipermail is *horrible* and it’s tree view makes things actively harder
> to read in large part because once the depth of the tree gets beyond
> like,, 3? or so, it just gives up trying to make it a tree and starts
> rendering all descendants past a certain point as siblings in a
> nonsensical order making it impossible to follow along on a discussion
> as everything ends up out of order.

You're right.  It shows that I'm used to pipermail's deficiencies, and
don't notice them as much as I used to do.

However, MM3 seems to be doing the exact same thing that pipermail does
when it comes to capping the tree view indentation to a certain limit.

If you scroll down the following page enough (or you can search for
example the sentence "I don't believe anyone outside of Firefox
enthusiasts and the package maintainer were even aware there was an
issue to discuss"), you'll see some replies displayed at the same
indentation level as the message they reply to:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/K5HSROMAIMNYSJONB5EIAQKWKYNFYSHK/

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Wes Turner]

On Thursday, October 26, 2017, Paul Moore  wrote:

> On 26 October 2017 at 10:24, Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> > We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
> > works well:
> >
> > https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/
> >
> > I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
> > threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!
> >
> > To be honest, we got some issues when the new security-announce
> > mailing list was quickly migrated from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3, but
> > issues were quicky fixed as well.
> >
> > Would it be possible to migrate python-dev to Mailman 3? Do you see
> > any blocker issue?
> >
> > I sent to email to the Python postmaster as well.
>
> My only use of the pipermail archives is to find permanent URLs for
> mails I want to refer people to. My usage goes as follows:
>
> 1. Google search for a post.
> 2. Paste in the URL to an email.
>
> Or, if I have the post already (usually in my email client).
>
> 1. Check the date and subject of the post.
> 2. Go to the pipermail article by month, and scan the list for the
> subject and author.
> 3. Click on the link, check it's the right email, copy the URL.
> 4. Paste it into my email.
>
> I don't use the archives for reading. If the above two usages are
> still available, I don't care. But in particular, the fact that
> individual posts are searchable from Google is important to me. And in
> the second usage, having a single scrollable webpage with no
> extraneous data just subject/author and a bit of threading by
> indentation speeds up my usage a lot - the UI you linked to (and the
> monthly archive page with the initial lines of postings on it) is FAR
> too cluttered to be usable for my purposes.
>
>
This:


> So basically, what I'm asking is what would be the support for the use
> case "Find a permanent link to an archived article as fast as possible
> based on subject/author or a Google search".


The complexity of this process is also very wastefully frustrating to me.
(Maybe it's in the next month's message tree? No fulltext search? No way to
even do an inurl: search because of the URIs?!)

Isn't there a way to append a permalink to the relayed message footers?
Google Groups and Github do this and it saves a lot of time.

[Re-searches for things]

Mailman3 adds an RFC 5064 "Archived-At" header with a link that some
clients provide the ability to open in a normal human browser:

http://dustymabe.com/2016/01/10/archived-at-email-header-from-mailman-3-lists/

I often click the "view it on Github" link in GitHub issue emails. (It's
after the '--' email signature delimiter, so it doesn't take up so much
room).

"[feature] Add permalink to mail message to the footer when delivering
email"
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/27


> Finally, how would a transition be handled? I assume the old archives
> would be retained, so would there be a cut-off date and people would
> have to know to use the old or new archives based on the date of the
> message?


Could an HTTP redirect help with directing users to the new or old archives?


>
> Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/26/2017 07:28 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thursday, October 26, 2017, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> On 26 October 2017 at 10:24, Victor Stinner
>  wrote:
> > We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
> > works well:
> >
> >
> https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/
> >
...
> 
> My only use of the pipermail archives is to find permanent URLs for
> mails I want to refer people to. My usage goes as follows:
> 
> 1. Google search for a post.
> 2. Paste in the URL to an email.
> 
> Or, if I have the post already (usually in my email client).
> 
> 1. Check the date and subject of the post.
> 2. Go to the pipermail article by month, and scan the list for the
> subject and author.
> 3. Click on the link, check it's the right email, copy the URL.
> 4. Paste it into my email.
> 
> I don't use the archives for reading. If the above two usages are
> still available, I don't care. But in particular, the fact that
> individual posts are searchable from Google is important to me.


A Google search narrowed with "site:mail.python.org" and perhaps
"inurl:listn...@python.org" works for HyperKitty archives as well. Also,
the archive itself has a "search this list" box.


...> The complexity of this process is also very wastefully frustrating to
> me. (Maybe it's in the next month's message tree? No fulltext search? No
> way to even do an inurl: search because of the URIs?!)


I don't see these issues. There is a full text search box on the archive
page and I don't see the problem with Google inurl:


> Isn't there a way to append a permalink to the relayed message footers?
> Google Groups and Github do this and it saves a lot of time.


As you note below, there is an Archived-At: header. I have just
submitted an RFE at  to
enable placing this in the message header/footer.


> [Re-searches for things]
> 
> Mailman3 adds an RFC 5064 "Archived-At" header with a link that some
> clients provide the ability to open in a normal human browser:
> 
> http://dustymabe.com/2016/01/10/archived-at-email-header-from-mailman-3-lists/
> 
> I often click the "view it on Github" link in GitHub issue emails. (It's
> after the '--' email signature delimiter, so it doesn't take up so much
> room).
>  
> "[feature] Add permalink to mail message to the footer when delivering
> email"
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/27


This needs to be in Mailman Core, not HyperKitty. As I note above, I
filed an RFE with core and also referenced it in the HyperKitty issue


> Finally, how would a transition be handled? I assume the old archives
> would be retained, so would there be a cut-off date and people would
> have to know to use the old or new archives based on the date of the
> message?
> 
> 
> Could an HTTP redirect help with directing users to the new or old archives?


What we did when migrating security-sig is we migrated the archive but
kept the old one and added this message and link to the old archive page.

"This list has been migrated to Mailman 3. This archive is not being
updated. Here is the new archive including these old posts."

We also redirected
 to
.

We purposely didn't redirect the old archive so that saved URLs would
still work.

We did the same things for security-announce and clearly can do the same
for future migrations.

Finally note that Mailman 3 supports archivers other than HyperKitty.
For example, one can configure a list to archive at
www.mail-archive.com, in such a way that the Archived-At: permalink
points to the message at www.mail-archive.com.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Wes Turner]

On Thursday, October 26, 2017, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 10/26/2017 07:28 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, October 26, 2017, Paul Moore  > wrote:
> >
> > On 26 October 2017 at 10:24, Victor Stinner
> > > wrote:
> > > We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list
> and it
> > > works well:
> > >
> > >
> > https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-status@
> python.org/
> > >
> ...
> >
> > My only use of the pipermail archives is to find permanent URLs for
> > mails I want to refer people to. My usage goes as follows:
> >
> > 1. Google search for a post.
> > 2. Paste in the URL to an email.
> >
> > Or, if I have the post already (usually in my email client).
> >
> > 1. Check the date and subject of the post.
> > 2. Go to the pipermail article by month, and scan the list for the
> > subject and author.
> > 3. Click on the link, check it's the right email, copy the URL.
> > 4. Paste it into my email.
> >
> > I don't use the archives for reading. If the above two usages are
> > still available, I don't care. But in particular, the fact that
> > individual posts are searchable from Google is important to me.
>
>
> A Google search narrowed with "site:mail.python.org" and perhaps
> "inurl:listn...@python.org " works for HyperKitty archives
> as well. Also,
> the archive itself has a "search this list" box.


Gmail also supports "list:python.org" now.


>
>
> ...> The complexity of this process is also very wastefully frustrating to
> > me. (Maybe it's in the next month's message tree? No fulltext search? No
> > way to even do an inurl: search because of the URIs?!)
>
>
> I don't see these issues. There is a full text search box on the archive
> page and I don't see the problem with Google inurl:


This URL style would work with inurl:

inurl:x.TLD/THREADID/msgid

These can't span across the year-month or otherwise catch other threads in
the result set:

inurl:mail.python.org/pipermail/astropy/2017-September/0001.html
inurl:mail.python.org/pipermail/astropy/2018-January/0002.html



>
>
> > Isn't there a way to append a permalink to the relayed message footers?
> > Google Groups and Github do this and it saves a lot of time.
>
>
> As you note below, there is an Archived-At: header. I have just
> submitted an RFE at  to
> enable placing this in the message header/footer.
>
>
> > [Re-searches for things]
> >
> > Mailman3 adds an RFC 5064 "Archived-At" header with a link that some
> > clients provide the ability to open in a normal human browser:
> >
> > http://dustymabe.com/2016/01/10/archived-at-email-header-
> from-mailman-3-lists/
> >
> > I often click the "view it on Github" link in GitHub issue emails. (It's
> > after the '--' email signature delimiter, so it doesn't take up so much
> > room).
> >
> > "[feature] Add permalink to mail message to the footer when delivering
> > email"
> > https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/27
>
>
> This needs to be in Mailman Core, not HyperKitty. As I note above, I
> filed an RFE with core and also referenced it in the HyperKitty issue


Thanks!


>
>
> > Finally, how would a transition be handled? I assume the old archives
> > would be retained, so would there be a cut-off date and people would
> > have to know to use the old or new archives based on the date of the
> > message?
> >
> >
> > Could an HTTP redirect help with directing users to the new or old
> archives?
>
>
> What we did when migrating security-sig is we migrated the archive but
> kept the old one and added this message and link to the old archive page.
>
> "This list has been migrated to Mailman 3. This archive is not being
> updated. Here is the new archive including these old posts."
>
> We also redirected
>  to
> .
>
> We purposely didn't redirect the old archive so that saved URLs would
> still work.
>
> We did the same things for security-announce and clearly can do the same
> for future migrations.


Great.


>
> Finally note that Mailman 3 supports archivers other than HyperKitty.
> For example, one can configure a list to archive at
> www.mail-archive.com, in such a way that the Archived-At: permalink
> points to the message at www.mail-archive.com.


Someday someone will have the time to implement this in e.g. posterious or
hyperkitty or from a complete mbox:
https://github.com/westurner/wiki/wiki/ideas#open-source-mailing-list-extractor

Thanks again!


>
> --
> Mark Sapiro >The highway is for
> gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 26, 2017, at 06:15, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> I don't think that Mailman 3 gives the choice of the UI for archives.

Technically, it does.

Mailman 3 has a pluggable architecture and supports multiple archives enabled 
site-wide and opt-in by individual lists.  HyperKitty is the default archiver, 
and the one we promote, but it doesn’t have to be the only archiver enabled.  
In fact, we come with plugins for mail-archive.com and MHonarc.  It *might* 
even be possible to enable a standalone Pipermail and route messages to that if 
one were so inclined.  The choice of archivers is not mutually exclusive.

Practically speaking though, there just aren’t a ton of well maintained FLOSS 
archivers to choose from.  HyperKitty *is* well maintained.  Frankly speaking, 
Pipermail is not.

Cheers,
-Barry




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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 26, 2017, at 10:01, Donald Stufft  wrote:

> Pipermail is *horrible*

Pipermail also has a fatal flaw, and we have been hit by it several times in 
our past.  It’s fundamental to Pipermail’s design and can’t be fixed.  
Fortunately, HyperKitty was designed and implemented correctly so it doesn’t 
suffer this flaw.

Pipermail indexes messages sequentially, and if you ever regenerate the archive 
from the source mbox, it’s is almost guaranteed that your messages will get 
different URLs.  Worse, you can’t even automate a mapping from new URLs to old 
URLs.  This is especially likely in archives that go back as far as python-dev 
does, because there was a bug back in the day where even the source mbox file 
got corrupted, where the separator between messages was broken.  We tried to 
implement a fix for that, but it’s a heuristic and it’s not perfect.

We say that Pipermail does not have “stable urls”.  Thankfully HyperKitty does! 
 So even if you regenerate the HyperKitty archive, your messages will end up 
with the same URLs.

This let’s us implement Archived-At stably, and the algorithm at [1] even lets 
us pre-calculate the URL, so we can even include the URL to where the message 
*will* be once it’s archived, even without talking to HyperKitty, or any of the 
other archivers that are enabled (and support the algorithm of course).

So HyperKitty is miles ahead of Pipermail in design and implementation.  Sure 
it’s different, but people also forget how really buggy Pipermail was for a 
long time.  (And trust me, you really don’t even want to look at the code. ;)

Cheers,
-Barry

[1] https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Stable%20URLs


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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 27 October 2017 at 00:28, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
> On Thursday, October 26, 2017, Paul Moore  wrote:
>
>> So basically, what I'm asking is what would be the support for the use
>> case "Find a permanent link to an archived article as fast as possible
>> based on subject/author or a Google search".
>
>
> The complexity of this process is also very wastefully frustrating to me.
> (Maybe it's in the next month's message tree? No fulltext search? No way to
> even do an inurl: search because of the URIs?!)
>
> Isn't there a way to append a permalink to the relayed message footers?
> Google Groups and Github do this and it saves a lot of time.
>

MM3 injects an Archived-At header, as the permalink URLs for individual
messages are generated based on a hash of a suitable subset of the message
headers (I don't know if it's possible to opt-in to including those in the
message footer or not, though).

As Barry explained, this isn't possible with pipermail, as those archive
URLs are dynamically generated and are completely independent of the
message contents and metadata (this is also why you can't safely delete
messages from MM2 archives: doing so will renumber the archive URLs for all
subsequent messages).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Serhiy Storchaka]

26.10.17 12:24, Victor Stinner пише:

We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
works well:

https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/

I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!

To be honest, we got some issues when the new security-announce
mailing list was quickly migrated from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3, but
issues were quicky fixed as well.

Would it be possible to migrate python-dev to Mailman 3? Do you see
any blocker issue?


+1! Current UI is almost unusable. When you read a message the only 
navigation links are available are "pref/next in the thread" and back to 
the global list of messages. So you should either read all messages 
sequentially in some linearized order and lost a context when jump from 
the end of one branch to the start of other branch, or switch to the 
three view and open every message in a separate tab and switch between 
tabs. I preferred to use Gmane, but its web-interface now doesn't work.


Does Mailman 3 provide a NNTP interface? The NNTP interface of Gmane 
still works, but it can be switched off at any time. It would be more 
reliable to not depend on an unstable third-party service.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:42, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:

> Does Mailman 3 provide a NNTP interface? The NNTP interface of Gmane still 
> works, but it can be switched off at any time. It would be more reliable to 
> not depend on an unstable third-party service.

I use the NNTP interface of Gmane too (although not for python-dev), and agree 
with everything your saying here.  Right now however, MM3 does not have a 
built-in NNTP server.

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Victor Stinner]

  2017-10-26 12:01 GMT+02:00 Antoine Pitrou :
>> We are using Mailman 3 for the new buildbot-status mailing list and it
>> works well:
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/buildbot-sta...@python.org/
>>
>> I prefer to read archives with this UI, it's simpler to follow
>> threads, and it's possible to reply on the web UI!
>
> Personally, I really don't like that UI.  Is it possible to have a
> pipermail-style UI as an alternative?
> (...)
>> I don't know pipermail. Do you have an example?
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ :-)

Oh, I didn't know that Mailman 2 archives are called "pipermail".

Well, there are already other archives already available if you want another UI:

http://code.activestate.com/lists/python-dev/
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel -- using NNTP
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/dev-python
https://lists.gt.net/python/dev/

And maybe others.

--

It's really hard to design an UI liked by everyone :-)

I prefer Mailman 3 UI (HyperKitty), I prefer to get all emails of a
thread on a single page, and the new UI has a few nice features like
"Most active discussions", "Activity Summary", "favorites", tags, etc.

Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)

I expect that Mailman 3 is more actively developed than Mailman 2. By
the way, I hope that Mailman 3 and HyperKity support and runs on
Python 3, whereas Mailman 2 is more likely stuck at Python 2, no? ;-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Paul Moore]

On 30 October 2017 at 11:00, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)

As I said, I don't particularly like it, but I don't expect to need it
if we get an archived-at header in the mails, and Google indexes
individual mails in the archive correctly.

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Stefan Krah]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:00:22PM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)

No, I don't like it.  If there is a promise to keep an additional, MHonArc
or Pipermail archive *with an implicit promise of long term support*, I don't
care.


Despite the mentioned shortcomings of Pipermail, it is 5 times faster
for me to navigate and less stressful to look at.



Stefan Krah



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Guido van Rossum]

I love MM3 and hyperkitty. But I rarely peruse the archives -- I only go to
pipermail to get a link to a specific message from the past so I can copy
it into a current message. IIUC that functionality is actually better in
hyperkitty because when a pipermail archive is rebuilt the message numbers
come out differently.

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Stefan Krah  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:00:22PM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
> > Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)
>
> No, I don't like it.  If there is a promise to keep an additional, MHonArc
> or Pipermail archive *with an implicit promise of long term support*, I
> don't
> care.
>
>
> Despite the mentioned shortcomings of Pipermail, it is 5 times faster
> for me to navigate and less stressful to look at.
>
>
>
> Stefan Krah
>
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 30, 2017, at 04:00, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> It's really hard to design an UI liked by everyone :-)

It’s impossible to design *anything* that’s liked by everyone :).

> I expect that Mailman 3 is more actively developed than Mailman 2. By
> the way, I hope that Mailman 3 and HyperKity support and runs on
> Python 3, whereas Mailman 2 is more likely stuck at Python 2, no? ;-)

Mailman 3 Core has been Python 3 for a long time.

HyperKitty and Postorius (the new admin web u/i) are both Django projects and 
while currently effectively Python 2, they are being actively ported to Python 
3.

mailmanclient, the official library of bindings to the Core REST API, is of 
course both Python 2 and 3.

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Stefan Krah]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 07:46:42AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I love MM3 and hyperkitty. But I rarely peruse the archives -- I only go to
> pipermail to get a link to a specific message from the past so I can copy
> it into a current message. IIUC that functionality is actually better in
> hyperkitty because when a pipermail archive is rebuilt the message numbers
> come out differently.

Yes, I use the archives differently.  When I'm temporarily unsubscribed
due to overload I scan the archives for interesting topics and indeed
sometimes read whole threads.

I think Pipermail is great for that. Quiet design, nice font, good contrast
for speed reading.



Stefan Krah



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Mariatta Wijaya]

> Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)

I love the new UI. +1000 for migrating.



Mariatta Wijaya

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Stefan Krah  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 07:46:42AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > I love MM3 and hyperkitty. But I rarely peruse the archives -- I only go
> to
> > pipermail to get a link to a specific message from the past so I can copy
> > it into a current message. IIUC that functionality is actually better in
> > hyperkitty because when a pipermail archive is rebuilt the message
> numbers
> > come out differently.
>
> Yes, I use the archives differently.  When I'm temporarily unsubscribed
> due to overload I scan the archives for interesting topics and indeed
> sometimes read whole threads.
>
> I think Pipermail is great for that. Quiet design, nice font, good contrast
> for speed reading.
>
>
>
> Stefan Krah
>
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Brett Cannon]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 at 09:36 Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> > Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)
>
> I love the new UI. +1000 for migrating.
>

I personally prefer MM3 + HyperKitty compared to MM2 + pipermail.

-Brett


>
>
>
> Mariatta Wijaya
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Stefan Krah  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 07:46:42AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> > I love MM3 and hyperkitty. But I rarely peruse the archives -- I only
>> go to
>> > pipermail to get a link to a specific message from the past so I can
>> copy
>> > it into a current message. IIUC that functionality is actually better in
>> > hyperkitty because when a pipermail archive is rebuilt the message
>> numbers
>> > come out differently.
>>
>> Yes, I use the archives differently.  When I'm temporarily unsubscribed
>> due to overload I scan the archives for interesting topics and indeed
>> sometimes read whole threads.
>>
>> I think Pipermail is great for that. Quiet design, nice font, good
>> contrast
>> for speed reading.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stefan Krah
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Lukasz Langa]

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 4:00 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Except of Antoine Pitrou, does everybody else like the new UI? :-)

I also much prefer MM3 and HyperKitty.

The old pipermail tree looks more inviting (I like the concise tree) but it's 
deceiving. When you actually start going through an entire discussion, it's 
easy to lose track unless posters use quotations neatly.

The search functionality of HyperKitty alone is worth it.

- Ł


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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Anything I can do to help make the migration to MM3 + HyperKitty happen? :)

Mariatta Wijaya
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 1, 2017, at 18:49, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
> 
> Anything I can do to help make the migration to MM3 + HyperKitty happen? :)

Thanks for the offer Mariatta!  Assuming this is something we want to go 
through with, probably the best way to get there is to work with the 
postmaster, especially Mark Sapiro, on the migration.

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Guido van Rossum]

Maybe we should try it on some other list too? I know it works "in
principle" and I'd love for all Python mailing lists to migrate, but I'd
like to have some more experience with community mailing lists before
tackling python-dev.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 18:49, Mariatta Wijaya 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anything I can do to help make the migration to MM3 + HyperKitty happen?
> :)
>
> Thanks for the offer Mariatta!  Assuming this is something we want to go
> through with, probably the best way to get there is to work with the
> postmaster, especially Mark Sapiro, on the migration.
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 1, 2017, at 19:42, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> 
> Maybe we should try it on some other list too? I know it works "in principle" 
> and I'd love for all Python mailing lists to migrate, but I'd like to have 
> some more experience with community mailing lists before tackling python-dev.

What about core-workflow or committers?  I think some of the criteria are:

* Gets a fair bit of traffic, but not too much
* Is okay with a little bit of downtime for the migration
* Willing to put up with any transient migration snafus
* Amenable to trying the new UI
* Has the BDFL as a member :)

-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Lukasz Langa]

+1 committers

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> On Nov 1, 2017, at 19:42, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> 
>> Maybe we should try it on some other list too? I know it works "in 
>> principle" and I'd love for all Python mailing lists to migrate, but I'd 
>> like to have some more experience with community mailing lists before 
>> tackling python-dev.
> 
> What about core-workflow or committers?  I think some of the criteria are:
> 
> * Gets a fair bit of traffic, but not too much
> * Is okay with a little bit of downtime for the migration
> * Willing to put up with any transient migration snafus
> * Amenable to trying the new UI
> * Has the BDFL as a member :)
> 
> -Barry
> 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Guido van Rossum]

Another one is core-mentorship, which satisfies the same criteria; and in
my view this has the added and useful property that its beneficiaries are
non-core members. After that I'd do core-workflow. Honestly I'd leave
python-committers alone for a while, we're a curmudgeonly group. :-)

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 19:42, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> >
> > Maybe we should try it on some other list too? I know it works "in
> principle" and I'd love for all Python mailing lists to migrate, but I'd
> like to have some more experience with community mailing lists before
> tackling python-dev.
>
> What about core-workflow or committers?  I think some of the criteria are:
>
> * Gets a fair bit of traffic, but not too much
> * Is okay with a little bit of downtime for the migration
> * Willing to put up with any transient migration snafus
> * Amenable to trying the new UI
> * Has the BDFL as a member :)
>
> -Barry
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Starting with core-mentorship and then core-workflow sounds good.

Let me first find out what it's going to take to do the migration. (I
actually have no idea!)
I've sent an email to postmaster and asked for more details :)

Hope it's not too complicated...

Mariatta Wijaya
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Re: [Python-Dev] Migrate python-dev to Mailman 3?

[Terry Reedy]

On 11/1/2017 11:06 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Another one is core-mentorship, which satisfies the same criteria; and 
in my view this has the added and useful property that its beneficiaries 
are non-core members. After that I'd do core-workflow. Honestly I'd 
leave python-committers alone for a while, we're a curmudgeonly group. :-)


As an idledev admin, I also volunteer it.  It has an archive but is 
currently dormant, so it could be shut down for even a couple of weeks 
to practice archive conversion and test messages.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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