Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
Jesse Noller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Bill Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. I find this discussion fascinating. I install new packages into my system Python all the time, with /usr/bin/python setup.py install, and that includes setuptools. I've got PIL, ReportLab, Twisted, Xlib, appscript, docutils, email-4.0.1, fuse, PyLucene, medusa, mutagen, roman, setuptools, and SSL installed in the Leopard machine I'm writing from. They don't wind up in /System/Library/.../site-packages/, they wind up in /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/, which is sort of the right place, from an Apple point of view. I do this on lots of Macs -- I've got a regular posse of them at work. And I've never had any problems with it. I agree that there are some things I'd be very wary of installing into the system Python, like PyObjC, and Zope. Usually, I don't install anything which appears to already be there. Bill Bill is correct - using /usr/bin/python does install packages to /Library/... - this is sort of the right place because it still installs it to a system path, where it can side-effect other users, but it is a mostly correct way for Apple framework installs. /Library is system-wide, yes, but not system-reserved. /System/Library/ is system-wide and system reserved. Just like on most distros (LFS and some older distros excluded): /usr/ is system-wide and system-reserved. /usr/local/ is sytem-wide, but not system-reserved. Computer admins are supposed to install into /Library/ or /usr/local/. The only possible problem of installing new Python modules into /Library/ is if any system Python scripts that depend on exact versions of libraries shipped in /System/Library/, but were not crafted as to ignore /Library/. That can be problematic, and arguablly a bug in the script, but Apple does not tend to fix those bugs that quickly. (OS bugs is one area where Apple's traditional secrecy is a bad thing. More transparency in bug fixing can only be an improvement.) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
Bill Janssen wrote: I strongly recommend that we *NOT* make macports.org the main, official Mac OS X version of Python. Secondary is fine, but not primary. Macports is what the name says: it's a system of Mac ports of Linux packages, mostly command-line only. I agree with David about this. The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. No, probably not. Frankly, I think the official Mac Python should be (and is) /usr/bin/python, the version that Apple ships with the system. I always try to make my stuff work with that Python, instead of installing a different version, which in my experience usually leads to grief somewhere down the road. I've certainly heard many tales of Mac users coming to grief because they decided to overwrite their system Python, or tried to be clever and run multiple interpreters (which is usually somewhat less disastrous). The Mac system depends a lot on stuff that comes installed with the system version of Python - including specific versions of Twisted etc. I *thought* (relative Mac newbie), the standard advice was that if you want to install extension modules then you should install your own version of Python and not mess with the system version. Meaning that you have to maintain two Python installs - something that hasn't been a problem for me yet. So even if Mac OS ships with Python 2.6, many users will still want to install their own version. The default page for Python on the Mac is horribly out of date: http://python.org/download/mac/ No mention of Leopard. Michael I guess this underlines the fact that Apple don't really want the hoi polloi tinkering with their systems; it's somewhat tedious when code is released for later Python versions and you have to privately backport, though, isn't it? There have been hints dropped that if the 2.6 release hits its deadline it will be incorporated into vendor builds. Let's hope one of them is MacOS, then at least it'll be relatively up to date. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
Leonardo Santagada wrote: -1 to use mac ports python as the base python On 18/08/2008, at 22:18, Bill Janssen wrote: The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. No, probably not. Frankly, I think the official Mac Python should be (and is) /usr/bin/python, the version that Apple ships with the system. I always try to make my stuff work with that Python, instead of installing a different version, which in my experience usually leads to grief somewhere down the road. I don't think this way, the official python should be the one from python.org, as it is on windows or there will be no point to make python 2.5.1 and 2.5.2 (or any point release that is not incorporated in vendors builds). The only grief I ever had in using the python from python.org is that I have to compile PyObjC from source, but this can be easily fixed. Talking about this, why not just point pythonmac.org to python.org python version and release the packages as eggs on cheeseshop? (specially py2exe and pyobjc as those are usually heavily needed on macs). I'm suspicious of any solution involving the word just. I suppose we will just be able to recruit volunteers to maintain the additional content? regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On Aug 19, 2008, at 3:45 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *thought* (relative Mac newbie), the standard advice was that if you want to install extension modules then you should install your own version of Python and not mess with the system version. My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. System Python's are for other components of the system; you can use them, but shouldn't modify them. Including installing or updating packages in the site-packages directory. At Zope Corporation, we use a clean Python for all development and deployments. Nothing gets installed into the site-packages, because different applications want different packages (or different versions), and we want to deploy with what we test with. Meaning that you have to maintain two Python installs - something that hasn't been a problem for me yet. So even if Mac OS ships with Python 2.6, many users will still want to install their own version. Indeed. I've never had to do anything to maintain the system Python on Mac OS X. It's there, Mac OS X does what it will with it, and I use my private (and squeaky clean!) Python installations. -Fred -- Fred Drake fdrake at acm.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Fred Drake wrote: My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. As a corollary, a system Python script should never ever use #!/usr/ bin/env python as its first line. It should always use /usr/bin/ python because that's the only thing it can guarantee it knows anything about. I've had several discussions with distro vendors about this, some at Pycon and others I'm more intimately involved with wink. I think there's general agreement about these principles, even if it's not always implemented correctly for every tool (but that's what bug reports are for :). - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSKrMhXEjvBPtnXfVAQKprwQAsuckU4jw5B+asnd6XNqCjuOuIDYRuv3w sOlfn76qwoxaA9KJe7aCBOcoXpUnB4ibEm8O403LYV9izRXf62xgGdyVWTS73yEc Sj6maoeIIO9ph7/p7eWT0Hl3pVmphsiLRgd7usyDSeRf+8ncXmE8Clr7i1vZ1rn+ fkFznLm7Kb0= =xHHt -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Fred Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 3:45 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *thought* (relative Mac newbie), the standard advice was that if you want to install extension modules then you should install your own version of Python and not mess with the system version. My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. System Python's are for other components of the system; you can use them, but shouldn't modify them. Including installing or updating packages in the site-packages directory. At Zope Corporation, we use a clean Python for all development and deployments. Nothing gets installed into the site-packages, because different applications want different packages (or different versions), and we want to deploy with what we test with. Meaning that you have to maintain two Python installs - something that hasn't been a problem for me yet. So even if Mac OS ships with Python 2.6, many users will still want to install their own version. Indeed. I've never had to do anything to maintain the system Python on Mac OS X. It's there, Mac OS X does what it will with it, and I use my private (and squeaky clean!) Python installations. -Fred -- Fred Drake fdrake at acm.org Just to add to this - with the advent of PEP 370[1], we now have the ability to use per-user site-packages directories. This neatly sidesteps the problem (for the most part) of tainting the system installations of python directly. As for the Mac issue - as a mac user/developer - I only install big ticket packages into the system path - for everything else, I either use virtualenv.py, a custom python install or the PYTHONPATH overrides. I've personally *never* used a python distribution from macports or fink - if I need a custom build, I'll do it myself, rather than install something into the /opt/ tree macports uses - I've had too many issues with library/binary conflicts with the pre-installed libraries/tools from twiddling with PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH to add the /opt tree to my environment in order to get compiles/tools to play nice. -Jesse [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
[Removed pydotorg from the recipients; this has nothing to do with the website.] On Aug 19, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Jesse Noller wrote: Just to add to this - with the advent of PEP 370[1], we now have the ability to use per-user site-packages directories. This neatly sidesteps the problem (for the most part) of tainting the system installations of python directly. True. This can help with newer Pythons. It doesn't really deal with having multiple Python versions, IIRC. As for the Mac issue - as a mac user/developer - I only install big ticket packages into the system path - for everything else, I either use virtualenv.py, a custom python install or the PYTHONPATH overrides. I've no idea what a big ticket package would be. Using zc.buildout nicely sidesteps any issues of installing into the Python installation, and caches expensive builds. I've personally *never* used a python distribution from macports or fink - if I need a custom build, I'll do it myself, rather than install something into the /opt/ tree macports uses - I've had too many issues with library/binary conflicts with the pre-installed libraries/tools from twiddling with PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH to add the /opt tree to my environment in order to get compiles/tools to play nice. I'd go so far as to say that any reliance on LD_LIBRARY_PATH is a bad idea, since it's horribly fragile. But I do link in the readline from macports. -Fred -- Fred Drake fdrake at acm.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
I've certainly heard many tales of Mac users coming to grief because they decided to overwrite their system Python, or tried to be clever and run multiple interpreters (which is usually somewhat less disastrous). I guess this underlines the fact that Apple don't really want the hoi polloi tinkering with their systems; it's somewhat tedious when code is released for later Python versions and you have to privately backport, though, isn't it? I build lots of different versions of Python on my Macs, and it all works fine. I think people run into trouble when they try to replace the system Python, in one way or another, for general use. But if you want to bundle a different Python version in an app, or in a framework-private bundle, it seems to be fine. There have been hints dropped that if the 2.6 release hits its deadline it will be incorporated into vendor builds. Let's hope one of them is MacOS, then at least it'll be relatively up to date. Hah! After spending years with Python 2.3 (for OS X 10.4), 2.5.1 is a breath of fresh air. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. I find this discussion fascinating. I install new packages into my system Python all the time, with /usr/bin/python setup.py install, and that includes setuptools. I've got PIL, ReportLab, Twisted, Xlib, appscript, docutils, email-4.0.1, fuse, PyLucene, medusa, mutagen, roman, setuptools, and SSL installed in the Leopard machine I'm writing from. They don't wind up in /System/Library/.../site-packages/, they wind up in /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/, which is sort of the right place, from an Apple point of view. I do this on lots of Macs -- I've got a regular posse of them at work. And I've never had any problems with it. I agree that there are some things I'd be very wary of installing into the system Python, like PyObjC, and Zope. Usually, I don't install anything which appears to already be there. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 19, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Bill Janssen wrote: My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. I find this discussion fascinating. I install new packages into my system Python all the time, with /usr/bin/python setup.py install, and that includes setuptools. I've got PIL, ReportLab, Twisted, Xlib, appscript, docutils, email-4.0.1, fuse, PyLucene, medusa, mutagen, roman, setuptools, and SSL installed in the Leopard machine I'm writing from. They don't wind up in /System/Library/.../site-packages/, they wind up in /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/, which is sort of the right place, from an Apple point of view. I do this on lots of Macs -- I've got a regular posse of them at work. And I've never had any problems with it. I agree that there are some things I'd be very wary of installing into the system Python, like PyObjC, and Zope. Usually, I don't install anything which appears to already be there. It probably affects OS X and Windows less than Linux distros like Gentoo or Ubuntu because the former don't heavily rely on the system python for their basic operation. You can pretty royally screw up the latter if your Python environment isn't just right. I think it's a /good/ thing that some OS distros are heavily invested in Python for their core operation. We just need to understand the best practices when they are. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSKsGoHEjvBPtnXfVAQLvoQP+K4DPZ2XyBZIR6IY9Tnf2c8hUm7+MNaVh o6J0qLDm7XFVtQw6OhWd6zzRMLswFV86yojGvXb/rM8dwF8zIjrw4HZguIBxSIq8 e88zSNr713lTN/ds394bPkTC323+7QJEA/JOYNztAw2SUlvP7r1o67RDVptxlSvq vrtb3VNl+7A= =U4jT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On 19-Aug-2008, at 19:28 , Bill Janssen wrote: My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. I find this discussion fascinating. I install new packages into my system Python all the time, with /usr/bin/python setup.py install, and that includes setuptools. I've got PIL, ReportLab, Twisted, Xlib, appscript, docutils, email-4.0.1, fuse, PyLucene, medusa, mutagen, roman, setuptools, and SSL installed in the Leopard machine I'm writing from. They don't wind up in /System/Library/.../site-packages/, they wind up in /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/, which is sort of the right place, from an Apple point of view. I do this on lots of Macs -- I've got a regular posse of them at work. And I've never had any problems with it. Same here: if have yet to see adverse consequences of installing third party packages into system Python. And now that Apple is distributing fairly current versions of things like PyObjC there's even little reason to build my own copy of Python. I have one on disk, but I find that I use the system Python for almost everything. Fink (and to a lesser extent MacPorts) I don't touch with a 10 feet pole: too often I've created software for distribution only to find that it somehow, behind my back, was linked against a dynamic library that I had installed locally through it. -- Jack Jansen, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Bill Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that if there is a system Python, you shouldn't change it. Ever. Huge, big, honkin' +1 from me on that. Besides, for a system Python, you want your distribution to manage packages, not setuptools, otherwise you confuse -- and probably break -- your system. I find this discussion fascinating. I install new packages into my system Python all the time, with /usr/bin/python setup.py install, and that includes setuptools. I've got PIL, ReportLab, Twisted, Xlib, appscript, docutils, email-4.0.1, fuse, PyLucene, medusa, mutagen, roman, setuptools, and SSL installed in the Leopard machine I'm writing from. They don't wind up in /System/Library/.../site-packages/, they wind up in /Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/, which is sort of the right place, from an Apple point of view. I do this on lots of Macs -- I've got a regular posse of them at work. And I've never had any problems with it. I agree that there are some things I'd be very wary of installing into the system Python, like PyObjC, and Zope. Usually, I don't install anything which appears to already be there. Bill Bill is correct - using /usr/bin/python does install packages to /Library/... - this is sort of the right place because it still installs it to a system path, where it can side-effect other users, but it is a mostly correct way for Apple framework installs. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On Aug 18, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Steve Holden wrote: Someone told me the other day that macports made for difficult installs, but not being a Mac user I wasn't in a position to evaluate the advice. Not being a Mac user either, I've been using Mac OS X for about a year now for most of my development. I've got mixed feelings about macports: It's painful to use, compared to things like rpm and apt, but... it might be the best that's available for the Mac. I'm not going to trust it to give me a usable Python, though, in spite of not having had problems with Pythons it provides. Just 'cause I've gotten paranoid. I'm copying the pydotorg list to see what, if anything, they have to say about it. That's where the work is likely to land, so we'd better know in advance if it would cause problems. If there are content maintainers for the Mac content (including installation packages of whatever form), then python.org is the right place for it. Presumably //someone// is creating those now, right? If they could upload them to python.org and update the pages accordingly, that should be no worse than anything they're doing now. -Fred -- Fred Drake fdrake at acm.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 18, 2008, at 6:13 PM, Fred Drake wrote: On Aug 18, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Steve Holden wrote: Someone told me the other day that macports made for difficult installs, but not being a Mac user I wasn't in a position to evaluate the advice. Not being a Mac user either, I've been using Mac OS X for about a year now for most of my development. I've got mixed feelings about macports: It's painful to use, compared to things like rpm and apt, but... it might be the best that's available for the Mac. I'm not going to trust it to give me a usable Python, though, in spite of not having had problems with Pythons it provides. Just 'cause I've gotten paranoid. I use macports too, mostly for stuff I'm too lazy to build from source. I'm sure there's a Python in there, but like Fred, I don't use it. I do agree that we could and probably should maintain any Mac Python content on the main python.org site, but also if Bob wants to donate the domain, we can just have it forward to www.python.org/allyourmacsarebelongtous - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSKn6k3EjvBPtnXfVAQJdZgP/a2G3T9jowXMjYc5dc/+PFFVM0mxe0+Y1 rJKoHZ+jumWEsxERD6kXCjrq00z21lGISnEBQkT5taieGgt8ouI3RtC3Atpp/wCR oqvyFJUb9Xxu7TUAV94G3yC/CUq0ZQiKT80F0YB/IQAGeYy6orkfolUqMosUOsVo KB1WDrqXEiU= =SZ1A -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
Guido van Rossum wrote: Alternatively, I just got mail from Bob Ippolito indicating that he'd be happy to hand over the domain to the PSF. It's got quite a bit more on it than Python distros, and it's a fairly popular resource for Mac users I imagine. However macports.org seems to have more Python stuff, and has a more recent version of 2.5. (2.5.2). Perhaps we should link to macports.org instead? I strongly recommend that we *NOT* make macports.org the main, official Mac OS X version of Python. Secondary is fine, but not primary. Macports is what the name says: it's a system of Mac ports of Linux packages, mostly command-line only. Those who want/need it know about it or will find it easily, while those who don't need it would only be confused by it. The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. Unfortunately, I can only recommend. I don't know anything about building Mac apps. -- David Goodger http://python.net/~goodger ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 18, 2008, at 6:13 PM, Fred Drake wrote: On Aug 18, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Steve Holden wrote: Someone told me the other day that macports made for difficult installs, but not being a Mac user I wasn't in a position to evaluate the advice. Not being a Mac user either, I've been using Mac OS X for about a year now for most of my development. I've got mixed feelings about macports: It's painful to use, compared to things like rpm and apt, but... it might be the best that's available for the Mac. I'm not going to trust it to give me a usable Python, though, in spite of not having had problems with Pythons it provides. Just 'cause I've gotten paranoid. I use macports too, mostly for stuff I'm too lazy to build from source. I'm sure there's a Python in there, but like Fred, I don't use it. I do agree that we could and probably should maintain any Mac Python content on the main python.org site, but also if Bob wants to donate the domain, we can just have it forward to www.python.org/allyourmacsarebelongtous We already do that for the wiki, we could do that for the other parts of the site just as easily (even without or before a transfer of ownership) :) I'm happy to pay for the domain and hosting, I just don't have a lot of spare cycles these days unless I need something at work. -bob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
I strongly recommend that we *NOT* make macports.org the main, official Mac OS X version of Python. Secondary is fine, but not primary. Macports is what the name says: it's a system of Mac ports of Linux packages, mostly command-line only. I agree with David about this. The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. No, probably not. Frankly, I think the official Mac Python should be (and is) /usr/bin/python, the version that Apple ships with the system. I always try to make my stuff work with that Python, instead of installing a different version, which in my experience usually leads to grief somewhere down the road. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
Bill Janssen wrote: I strongly recommend that we *NOT* make macports.org the main, official Mac OS X version of Python. Secondary is fine, but not primary. Macports is what the name says: it's a system of Mac ports of Linux packages, mostly command-line only. I agree with David about this. The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. No, probably not. Frankly, I think the official Mac Python should be (and is) /usr/bin/python, the version that Apple ships with the system. I always try to make my stuff work with that Python, instead of installing a different version, which in my experience usually leads to grief somewhere down the road. I've certainly heard many tales of Mac users coming to grief because they decided to overwrite their system Python, or tried to be clever and run multiple interpreters (which is usually somewhat less disastrous). I guess this underlines the fact that Apple don't really want the hoi polloi tinkering with their systems; it's somewhat tedious when code is released for later Python versions and you have to privately backport, though, isn't it? There have been hints dropped that if the 2.6 release hits its deadline it will be incorporated into vendor builds. Let's hope one of them is MacOS, then at least it'll be relatively up to date. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [Pydotorg] Should we help pythonmac.org?
-1 to use mac ports python as the base python On 18/08/2008, at 22:18, Bill Janssen wrote: The official Mac Python should be an OS X application, with an icon, living in /Applications, ideally with a Mac-standard editor app (the 2.5.1 I have has IDLE), etc. No, probably not. Frankly, I think the official Mac Python should be (and is) /usr/bin/python, the version that Apple ships with the system. I always try to make my stuff work with that Python, instead of installing a different version, which in my experience usually leads to grief somewhere down the road. I don't think this way, the official python should be the one from python.org, as it is on windows or there will be no point to make python 2.5.1 and 2.5.2 (or any point release that is not incorporated in vendors builds). The only grief I ever had in using the python from python.org is that I have to compile PyObjC from source, but this can be easily fixed. Talking about this, why not just point pythonmac.org to python.org python version and release the packages as eggs on cheeseshop? (specially py2exe and pyobjc as those are usually heavily needed on macs). -- Leonardo Santagada ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
