Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 03:30, Steve Dower wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Just sharing this here because I think it's important for us to be aware
> of it - I'm not trying to promote or sell anything here :) (Those who
> were at the language summit have seen this already.)
>
> In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we
> (Microsoft) have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are
> installed on PATH *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the
> page where we (Python core team) publish our build.
>
> This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having
> a usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" ->
> "python.exe" now works!)
>
> The associated blog post:
>
>
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/
>
> Here are answers to a few questions that I assume will come up, at least
> from this audience that understands the issues better than most:
>
> * if someone had installed Python and put it on PATH with our installer,
> this new command *does not* interfere
> * if someone had manually modified their own PATH, they *may* see some
> interference (but we [Microsoft] decided this was an acceptable risk)
> * the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8,
> but when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to
> point at it
> * if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an
> error code - you only get the Store page if you run it without arguments
> * once the Store package is installed, the redirect command is replaced
> (this required a new feature in the OS). If you install with the regular
> installer and update PATH, or active a venv, it will add it *before* the
> redirect. So these scenarios should be all good.
>
> I'm happy to answer other questions here. The long-term contact for this
> integration is python (at) microsoft.com, which right now will come to me.
>
> And on a personal note, I'm very excited that we (Microsoft) got the
> approval to do this. Getting *anything* added to Windows is a big task,
> so it's a reflection of the popularity and support for Python that's
> growing within Microsoft that we were able to make this happen. That's
> due to every contributor, both to the core runtime and the ecosystem. I
> hope this will only help us improve the availability of Python for users
> and make it an easier choice for dev tasks in the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
> ___
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>
I am really glad this happened. I think that in a sense this could be
considered sort of historical.
--
Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 24May2019 0220, Baptiste Carvello wrote: Hello, Le 21/05/2019 à 22:30, Steve Dower a écrit : [...] * the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8, but when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to point at it * if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an error code - you only get the Store page if you run it without arguments I was wondering how those 2 bullet points combine. Say a user installs 3.7 from the store, then uses "python.exe" with arguments, in a shebang line or a batch script. Does it mean the script might break unexpectedly when 3.8 is released? Then, would it make sense for the redirect command to proxy to the 3.7 install when arguments are passed? This is a very big complicated situation (just like on Linux), but the answer is that if you are worried about your script breaking, then don't use "python.exe" in the shebang line or batch file. You can use "python3.7" just fine (well, no shebang lines on Windows). As for the redirect command, if you install Python from the store, it will be replaced completely. Uninstalling Python doesn't even bring it back (another thing we considered and decided wasn't worth the effort - if you've installed Python once then you probably know how to find it again). And if you replace it with something higher in PATH then it's just like shadowing any other command, including the case where one day Microsoft adds a new version of a command you were using (e.g. ssh or bash :) ). So there's really no change to your scenario due to the redirect, just the same old "if you don't specify the version of Python you want then you'll get what you get". (Refer to the linux-sig list for detailed discussion.) Cheers, Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
Hello, Le 21/05/2019 à 22:30, Steve Dower a écrit : > > [...] > > * the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8, > but when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to > point at it > * if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an > error code - you only get the Store page if you run it without arguments I was wondering how those 2 bullet points combine. Say a user installs 3.7 from the store, then uses "python.exe" with arguments, in a shebang line or a batch script. Does it mean the script might break unexpectedly when 3.8 is released? Then, would it make sense for the redirect command to proxy to the 3.7 install when arguments are passed? Cheers, Baptiste ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On Thu, 23 May 2019 00:23:39 +0200 Ray Donnelly wrote: > On Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:17 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < > python-dev@python.org> wrote: > > > On 22.05.2019 23:52, Steve Dower wrote: > > > On 22May2019 1309, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: > > >> As someone whose job is to diagnose and fix problems with running > > software: > > >> Are there patches in your release? Do you provide corresponding sources > > and debug symbols for it? > > > > > > You can find the sources at https://github.com/python/cpython :) > > > > > For Anaconda, this is not so, they apply private patches. So I had to make > > sure. > > > > There's nothing 'private' about them. > https://github.com/AnacondaRecipes/python-feedstock/tree/master/recipe Note that some of those patches could probably be contributed back. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On Thu, May 23, 2019, 12:17 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > On 22.05.2019 23:52, Steve Dower wrote: > > On 22May2019 1309, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: > >> As someone whose job is to diagnose and fix problems with running > software: > >> Are there patches in your release? Do you provide corresponding sources > and debug symbols for it? > > > > You can find the sources at https://github.com/python/cpython :) > > > For Anaconda, this is not so, they apply private patches. So I had to make > sure. > There's nothing 'private' about them. https://github.com/AnacondaRecipes/python-feedstock/tree/master/recipe > > > > I'm working on getting debug symbols packaged for the next release, but > once I do that they'll be exactly the same binaries as in the > > traditional installer on python.org. (Right now they are two separate > builds of the same source.) > > > > The package on the Store is not a Microsoft build or release of Python - > it's published by whoever the Windows build manager is at the > > time. Just to be confusing, it's me right now, but the actual install is > not owned or managed by Microsoft - just endorsed and linked. > > > > Cheers, > > Steve > > -- > Regards, > Ivan > > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mingw.android%40gmail.com > ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 22.05.2019 23:52, Steve Dower wrote: On 22May2019 1309, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: As someone whose job is to diagnose and fix problems with running software: Are there patches in your release? Do you provide corresponding sources and debug symbols for it? You can find the sources at https://github.com/python/cpython :) For Anaconda, this is not so, they apply private patches. So I had to make sure. I'm working on getting debug symbols packaged for the next release, but once I do that they'll be exactly the same binaries as in the traditional installer on python.org. (Right now they are two separate builds of the same source.) The package on the Store is not a Microsoft build or release of Python - it's published by whoever the Windows build manager is at the time. Just to be confusing, it's me right now, but the actual install is not owned or managed by Microsoft - just endorsed and linked. Cheers, Steve -- Regards, Ivan ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 22May2019 1309, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: As someone whose job is to diagnose and fix problems with running software: Are there patches in your release? Do you provide corresponding sources and debug symbols for it? You can find the sources at https://github.com/python/cpython :) I'm working on getting debug symbols packaged for the next release, but once I do that they'll be exactly the same binaries as in the traditional installer on python.org. (Right now they are two separate builds of the same source.) The package on the Store is not a Microsoft build or release of Python - it's published by whoever the Windows build manager is at the time. Just to be confusing, it's me right now, but the actual install is not owned or managed by Microsoft - just endorsed and linked. Cheers, Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 22May2019 1237, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 21:32, Steve Dower wrote:
In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we
(Microsoft) have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are
installed on PATH *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the
page where we (Python core team) publish our build.
This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having
a usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" ->
"python.exe" now works!)
This is great. Thanks for this Steve. A lot of novices struggle to get
Python installed and running on Windows. Not being on PATH is a
particular problem for them so this looks very useful. Of course it
doesn't take long before a novice programmer needs some other
libraries (numpy, matploblib etc for my students) so I wonder how that
part works.
pip/pip3/pip3.7 all work as expected (python -m pip has a bug that will
be fixed once we get a new version of pip bundled - I've already made
the fix on their side to correct it, but the workaround is to pass --user).
python -m venv also works as expected (now... after some bug fixes from
the initial release).
Is this doing a single-user or system wide install?
It's an interesting hybrid. The files are installed once per system, and
are locked down even from being changed by administrators. But each user
has to install it themselves (which is very quick if another user has
already got it) and they will have their own packages/settings/etc.
After install is IDLE available via start menu?
Yes. Also at the command line as idle/idle3/idle3.7
How does pip fit into this? Will pip be on PATH after install?
Yes, as pip/pip3/pip3.7.
Currently, installing a tool with its own entry point will not put it on
PATH but will prompt you to put your Scripts directory there yourself.
There's no good workaround for this, other than using -m or pipx.
Cheers,
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 21.05.2019 23:30, Steve Dower wrote:
Hi all
Just sharing this here because I think it's important for us to be aware of it - I'm not trying to promote or sell anything here :) (Those
who were at the language summit have seen this already.)
In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we (Microsoft) have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are
installed on PATH *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the page where we (Python core team) publish our build.
This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having a usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it
Free" -> "python.exe" now works!)
The associated blog post:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/
Here are answers to a few questions that I assume will come up, at least from
this audience that understands the issues better than most:
* if someone had installed Python and put it on PATH with our installer, this
new command *does not* interfere
* if someone had manually modified their own PATH, they *may* see some
interference (but we [Microsoft] decided this was an acceptable risk)
* the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8, but when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to
point at it
* if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an error code - you only get the Store page if you run it without
arguments
* once the Store package is installed, the redirect command is replaced (this required a new feature in the OS). If you install with the
regular installer and update PATH, or active a venv, it will add it *before* the redirect. So these scenarios should be all good.
I'm happy to answer other questions here. The long-term contact for this integration is python (at) microsoft.com, which right now will
come to me.
As someone whose job is to diagnose and fix problems with running software:
Are there patches in your release? Do you provide corresponding sources and
debug symbols for it?
And on a personal note, I'm very excited that we (Microsoft) got the approval to do this. Getting *anything* added to Windows is a big
task, so it's a reflection of the popularity and support for Python that's growing within Microsoft that we were able to make this happen.
That's due to every contributor, both to the core runtime and the ecosystem. I hope this will only help us improve the availability of
Python for users and make it an easier choice for dev tasks in the future.
Cheers,
Steve
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--
Regards,
Ivan
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 21:32, Steve Dower wrote:
>
> In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we
> (Microsoft) have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are
> installed on PATH *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the
> page where we (Python core team) publish our build.
>
> This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having
> a usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" ->
> "python.exe" now works!)
This is great. Thanks for this Steve. A lot of novices struggle to get
Python installed and running on Windows. Not being on PATH is a
particular problem for them so this looks very useful. Of course it
doesn't take long before a novice programmer needs some other
libraries (numpy, matploblib etc for my students) so I wonder how that
part works.
Is this doing a single-user or system wide install?
After install is IDLE available via start menu?
How does pip fit into this? Will pip be on PATH after install?
--
Oscar
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 21May2019 1621, MRAB wrote: Does it behave nicely with py.exe? This is still something of an open issue with the Store package for Python - py.exe doesn't look for the registry keys in a way that will find them (due to some very obscure compatibility quirks). The Store package does not include py.exe though, so this only comes up if you install a second copy with the regular installer. And that would have to be a 3.8 alpha release to have any chance of getting the fix, since if you install a 3.7 release along with the 3.7 Store package then the regular install is likely going to shadow the Store package anyway, and I wasn't planning on adding to 3.6's launcher at this stage. So far I haven't heard much feedback about this being a real issue - it's almost all been theoretical questions rather than "why did py.exe just fail?" issues. I expect they'll come up, and when they do I'm sure they'll point towards a good solution. Earlier this year I installed an extension in Visual Studio Code for programming Arduino. It installed its own version of Python 2.7 (I'm on Python 3) and changed the file associations to point to that, thus breaking my scripts. (I wasn't keen on its customised icons, either.) I was somewhat unhappy at that... The Store package should change otherwise unassigned file associations to point at it when it is installed. If you already have file associations, you might get a prompt next time you double-click a .py file, but it shouldn't just steal them. Cheers, Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 2019-05-21 21:30, Steve Dower wrote: [snip] The associated blog post: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/ Here are answers to a few questions that I assume will come up, at least from this audience that understands the issues better than most: * if someone had installed Python and put it on PATH with our installer, this new command *does not* interfere * if someone had manually modified their own PATH, they *may* see some interference (but we [Microsoft] decided this was an acceptable risk) * the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8, but when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to point at it * if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an error code - you only get the Store page if you run it without arguments * once the Store package is installed, the redirect command is replaced (this required a new feature in the OS). If you install with the regular installer and update PATH, or active a venv, it will add it *before* the redirect. So these scenarios should be all good. I'm happy to answer other questions here. The long-term contact for this integration is python (at) microsoft.com, which right now will come to me. Does it behave nicely with py.exe? Earlier this year I installed an extension in Visual Studio Code for programming Arduino. It installed its own version of Python 2.7 (I'm on Python 3) and changed the file associations to point to that, thus breaking my scripts. (I wasn't keen on its customised icons, either.) I was somewhat unhappy at that... ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 05/21/2019 01:30 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we (Microsoft) have added
"python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are installed on PATH *by default*
and will open the Microsoft Store at the page where we (Python core team) publish our build.
This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having a usable Python install
("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" -> "python.exe" now works!)
This is great! I'm now actually looking forward to an update! :-)
--
~Ethan~
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
On 21/05/2019 22.30, Steve Dower wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Just sharing this here because I think it's important for us to be aware of
> it - I'm not trying to promote or sell anything here :) (Those who were at
> the language summit have seen this already.)
>
> In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we (Microsoft)
> have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are installed on PATH
> *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the page where we (Python
> core team) publish our build.
>
> This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having a
> usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" ->
> "python.exe" now works!)
>
> The associated blog post:
>
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/
Thanks for doing this and lowering the entree barrier for every Windows user. :)
Christian
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python in next Windows 10 update
That’s great, Steve. Thanks for all of the work (by you and others) on this.
--
Eric V. Smith
True Blade Systems, Inc
(301) 859-4544
> On May 21, 2019, at 4:30 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> Just sharing this here because I think it's important for us to be aware of
> it - I'm not trying to promote or sell anything here :) (Those who were at
> the language summit have seen this already.)
>
> In the next Windows 10 update that starts rolling out today, we (Microsoft)
> have added "python.exe" and "python3.exe" commands that are installed on PATH
> *by default* and will open the Microsoft Store at the page where we (Python
> core team) publish our build.
>
> This makes it a 1-2 click process to get from a clean machine to having a
> usable Python install ("python.exe" -> opens Store -> "Get it Free" ->
> "python.exe" now works!)
>
> The associated blog post:
>
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/
>
> Here are answers to a few questions that I assume will come up, at least from
> this audience that understands the issues better than most:
>
> * if someone had installed Python and put it on PATH with our installer, this
> new command *does not* interfere
> * if someone had manually modified their own PATH, they *may* see some
> interference (but we [Microsoft] decided this was an acceptable risk)
> * the Python 3.7 installed from the store will not auto-update to 3.8, but
> when 3.8 is released we (Microsoft) will update the redirect to point at it
> * if you pass arguments to the redirect command, it just exits with an error
> code - you only get the Store page if you run it without arguments
> * once the Store package is installed, the redirect command is replaced (this
> required a new feature in the OS). If you install with the regular installer
> and update PATH, or active a venv, it will add it *before* the redirect. So
> these scenarios should be all good.
>
> I'm happy to answer other questions here. The long-term contact for this
> integration is python (at) microsoft.com, which right now will come to me.
>
> And on a personal note, I'm very excited that we (Microsoft) got the approval
> to do this. Getting *anything* added to Windows is a big task, so it's a
> reflection of the popularity and support for Python that's growing within
> Microsoft that we were able to make this happen. That's due to every
> contributor, both to the core runtime and the ecosystem. I hope this will
> only help us improve the availability of Python for users and make it an
> easier choice for dev tasks in the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
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