Re: Licensing?

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2023-02-03, Greg Ewing  wrote:
> On 3/02/23 6:38 am, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>> If you change someone else's code then you have created a derived
>> work, which requires permission from both the original author and you
>> to copy. (Unless you change it so much that nothing remains of the
>> original author's code, of course.)
>
> "Nothing" is probably a bit extreme; somewhere between "exactly the
> same" and "completely different" there will be a borderline case,
> although exactly where the border lies would require a court case
> to determine.

Well yes, technically if you remove so much code that what remains
of the original is so de minimis that it can't be considered
copyrightable then you're good. But that doesn't seem that useful
to know, because if you've removed that much then what remains,
pretty much by definition, isn't going to be useful. You'd be
better off simply starting from scratch and having an unimpeachable
claim to own the entire copyright yourself.
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Re: evaluation question

[Greg Ewing]

On 3/02/23 5:09 am, mutt...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

What if its 10s of thousands of lines of
core production code? If the company it belongs to wants to add new Python 3
features it can't just plug them into the code because it won't run under
Python 3, they have to do a full overhaul or even complete rewrite and that
costs a lot of time and money.


A possible strategy in that case would have been to incrementally
rewrite it in such a way that the code would run in both 2.7 and 3.x
(various features were added to 2.7 to make that possible).

When that point is reached, you can then switch to running it with
Python 3 and start using the new features.

Also, if you're a company whose business is totally reliant on some
piece of code, it would be prudent to plan ahead and budget for
rewriting or replacing it at some point.

People seem to think that because code doesn't wear out like
hardware, you don't have to budget for replacing it. But you can't
expect third party software to be maintained forever -- particularly
when, as with Python, the maintenance is mainly being done by
*volunteers*.

--
Greg
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Re: Licensing?

[Greg Ewing]

On 3/02/23 6:38 am, Jon Ribbens wrote:

If you change someone else's code then you have created a derived
work, which requires permission from both the original author and you
to copy. (Unless you change it so much that nothing remains of the
original author's code, of course.)


"Nothing" is probably a bit extreme; somewhere between "exactly the
same" and "completely different" there will be a borderline case,
although exactly where the border lies would require a court case
to determine.

When in doubt, the sensible and courteous thing would be to include
the original copyright notice as requested, maybe with a "based on
work by..." attribution.

--
Greg
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Re: evaluation question

[Mark Bourne]

mutt...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:28:04 +0100
"Peter J. Holzer"  wrote:

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On 2023-02-01 09:00:39 -, mutt...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

Its not evolution, its revolution. Evolution retains old functionality.


Tell a penguin that it can fly :-)


Yeah ok :) But the ancestors of penguins didn't wake up one morning, flap
their wings and fall out the tree, it happened gradually. Python2 syntax
could have been retained for X versions of 3 just as C++ keeps old stuff
until its eventually deprecated them removed.


Python 2 *was* retained for X versions of Python 3.  From a quick check, 
Python 3.0 was released in December 2008 and Python 2 support ended in 
January 2020 - by which time Python 3 was up to 3.8 as ChrisA mentioned. 
 That's about an 11 year transition period, which is hardly sudden! 
Python 3 *was* the point at which the features deprecated in Python 2 
were removed.


The problem is, a lot seemed to ignore Python 3 for the first 12 years 
and then suddenly panic because Python 2 support had ended.


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Mark.
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Re: Upgrading Python on Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS

[Thomas Passin]

On 2/2/2023 1:56 PM, אורי wrote:

deadsnakes ppa don't have Python 3.10 for Ubuntu 22.04.

https://launchpad.net/~deadsnakes/+archive/ubuntu/ppa 


אורי
u...@speedy.net 


I just last night installed 3.10.9 on Debian Buster following the 
directions at


https://computingforgeeks.com/how-to-install-python-latest-debian/

I only changed the file name of the Python tarball. However, if you want 
to use tkinter, the Tk development libraries need to be on your machine 
before you run ./configure.  The package name may change, but for me it was


sudo apt-get install tk-dev

(see 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5459444/tkinter-python-may-not-be-configured-for-tk)


It does not replace the Debian Python3 link to 3.7.3 so it should not 
interfere with normal Debian system services.


(The highest Debian-supported version of Python on Buster is still 3.7+).

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 8:14 PM Thomas Passin > wrote:


On 2/1/2023 12:36 PM, אורי wrote:
 > Thank you all.
 >
 > I'm not familiar with snap update but I did `sudo apt update` &
`sudo apt
 > upgrade`, but about one or two months ago.
 >
 > אורי
 > u...@speedy.net 

You can probably install it from the deadsnakes repository:

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:deadsnakes/ppa

More than likely it will have your package.  See

https://github.com/deadsnakes 



 > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 7:33 PM Jack Dangler mailto:tdl...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 >> Ari
 >>
 >> Have you tried running a snap update?
 >>
 >> Regards
 >>
 >> יַעֲקֹב
 >>
 >> On 2/1/23 11:31, אורי wrote:
 >>> Hi,
 >>>
 >>> I have a server with Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS and the Python version
there
 >>> is Python 3.10.6. Is there a safe way to upgrade to the latest
version of
 >>> Python 3.10 (3.10.9)? I tried with the OS update and upgrade
but the
 >> Python
 >>> version remained the same.
 >>>
 >>> Thanks,
 >>> אורי
 >>> u...@speedy.net 
 >> --
 >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

 >>

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Re: Upgrading Python on Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS

[אורי]

deadsnakes ppa don't have Python 3.10 for Ubuntu 22.04.

https://launchpad.net/~deadsnakes/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 8:14 PM Thomas Passin  wrote:

> On 2/1/2023 12:36 PM, אורי wrote:
> > Thank you all.
> >
> > I'm not familiar with snap update but I did `sudo apt update` & `sudo apt
> > upgrade`, but about one or two months ago.
> >
> > אורי
> > u...@speedy.net
>
> You can probably install it from the deadsnakes repository:
>
> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:deadsnakes/ppa
>
> More than likely it will have your package.  See
>
> https://github.com/deadsnakes
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 7:33 PM Jack Dangler  wrote:
> >
> >> Ari
> >>
> >> Have you tried running a snap update?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> יַעֲקֹב
> >>
> >> On 2/1/23 11:31, אורי wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I have a server with Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS and the Python version there
> >>> is Python 3.10.6. Is there a safe way to upgrade to the latest version
> of
> >>> Python 3.10 (3.10.9)? I tried with the OS update and upgrade but the
> >> Python
> >>> version remained the same.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> אורי
> >>> u...@speedy.net
> >> --
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: evaluation question

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 04:48,  wrote:
> Yeah ok :) But the ancestors of penguins didn't wake up one morning, flap
> their wings and fall out the tree, it happened gradually. Python2 syntax
> could have been retained for X versions of 3 just as C++ keeps old stuff
> until its eventually deprecated them removed.

What, you mean Python 2.7 could have continued to be supported until
Python 3.8 (yes, that's not a typo) was released?

It was.

ChrisA
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Re: Licensing?

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2023-02-02, Stefan Ram  wrote:
>   Many licenses in the Python world are like: "You can make
>   changes, but have to leave in my Copyright notice.".
>
>   Would it be possible that the original author could not
>   claim a Copyright anymore when code has been changed?

No. If you change someone else's code then you have created a derived
work, which requires permission from both the original author and you
to copy. (Unless you change it so much that nothing remains of the
original author's code, of course.)
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Re: evaluation question

[rbowman]

On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:31:46 - (UTC), Muttley wrote:


> Yeah ok  But the ancestors of penguins didn't wake up one morning, flap
> their wings and fall out the tree, it happened gradually. Python2 syntax
> could have been retained for X versions of 3 just as C++ keeps old stuff
> until its eventually deprecated them removed.

Isn't that prolonging the agony? I had some 2.7 scripts I had to move to 
3. It wasn't that painful and I learned the new syntax. Being lazy if they 
still worked I would have kept using 2.7 syntax until someday it really 
went away.

MS did it big time with VB .NET. I'm sure there still are people 
maintaining and extending old-style VB until it ceases to work altogether. 
Then they'll be faced with the same learning curve most people suffered 
through 20 years ago.
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Re: evaluation question

[Muttley]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:28:04 +0100
"Peter J. Holzer"  wrote:
>--b2nljkb3mdefsdhx
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Disposition: inline
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>On 2023-02-01 09:00:39 -, mutt...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Its not evolution, its revolution. Evolution retains old functionality.
>
>Tell a penguin that it can fly :-)

Yeah ok :) But the ancestors of penguins didn't wake up one morning, flap
their wings and fall out the tree, it happened gradually. Python2 syntax
could have been retained for X versions of 3 just as C++ keeps old stuff
until its eventually deprecated them removed.

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