Re: multi-core software
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:15:00 + (UTC), Kaz Kylheku wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Even for problems where it appears trivial, there can be hidden >issues, like false cache coherency communication where no actual >sharing is taking place. Or locks that appear to have low contention and >negligible performance impact on ``only'' 8 processors suddenly turn into >bottlenecks. Then there is NUMA. A given address in memory may be >RAM attached to the processor accessing it, or to another processor, >with very different access costs. Could what you are saying be summed up by saying, "The more threads you have the more important it is to keep your threads independent, sharing as little data as possible." -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Never discourage anyone... who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. ~ Plato 428 BC died: 348 BC at age: 80 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: multi-core software
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Xah Lee wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > Why Must Software Be Rewritten For Multi-Core Processors? Threads have been part of Java since Day 1. Using threads complicates your code, but even with a single core processor, they can improve performance, particularly if you are doing something like combing multiple websites. The nice thing about Java is whether you are on a single core processor or a 256 CPU machine (We got to run our Athena Integer Java spreadsheet engine on such a beast), does not concern your code. You just have to make sure your threads don't interfere with each other, and Java/the OS, handle exploiting all the CPUs available. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com Never discourage anyone... who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. ~ Plato 428 BC died: 348 BC at age: 80 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Ban Xah Lee
On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:52:02 -0800 (PST), Xah Lee wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > >I consider this post relevant because i've been perennially gossiped >about in comp.lang.* groups today and in the past 5 or 10 years, many >of the threads mentioning my name are not started by me nor did i ever >participate. The reason you are unpopular has nothing to with what you say. It is that you don't participate in discussions. You just pontificate from on high. It implies a sort of haughty superciliousness that people are reacting to. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival." ~ Dr. W. (William) Edwards Deming (born: 1900-10-14 died: 1993-12-20 at age: 93)) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: programming by evolution?
On 19 Feb 2009 18:56:42 GMT, Albert van der Horst wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Note here, that eXtreme >>Programing is one of the snake oil, Extreme programming is a variant on Deming's idea of constant incremental improvement that revolutionised quality in manufacturing. It is also based on the obvious idea that you will be smarter after you have used some version of a program than you are today. There are so many computer programs perfectly compliant with specs that looked good on paper but nobody ever tested with actual use to refine them until the project was "complete" and it was too expensive to fix them. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. ~ Woody Allen . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:28:33 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Note: On IBM 1620, instructions and forward-sweeping data records >were addressed by their *first* digit, whereas arithmetic fields >were addressed by their *last* digit, the low-order position, to >support natural add-and-carry operations. Storage was decimal >digits, with two extra bits, flag to indicate negative value (if in >low-order position) or high-order-end (if in any other position), >and parity. What a memory you have to recall the precise details of work you did 45 odd years ago. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: pop langs website ranking
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT), "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > alexa I was shocked at the detailed information Alexa (owned by Amzon.com)_ had about my website. I wrote them and asked how they got it. They said volunteers use a special browsing tool that reports website visits. They use that to generate the information. I suppose then one way to bump your stats is to use the tool for maintaining your own website. The weakness of this approach is it is unusual group of people who will voluntarily submit to having their usage spied on. These are not a typical group or a large group. Google has AdSense that will let them know in huge detail the hit stats on a huge hunk of the web, but I don't know if they publish that information anywhere. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:27:04 -0500, Damien Kick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >"free as in beer". but does not "free beer" nearly always come with a catch or implied obligation? -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: which language allows you to change an argument's value?
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:47:13 -, Summercool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >and now n will be 3. I think C++ and PHP can let you do that, using >their reference (alias) mechanism. And C, Python, and Ruby probably >won't let you do that. What about Java and Perl? Seem to me you could in FORTRAN and Pascal, and maybe even Algol. It has been a while. I have come to appreciate Java's strong isolation convention. It makes it a lot easier to track down WHERE in the code a value could potentially change and keeps those places to a minimum. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: best GUI library for vector drawing program
>What would be the best cross-platform GUI library to use for a vector >based CAD program ( something like Visio on Windows ) I don't know about he best, but I have collected a list of them at http://mindprod.com/jgloss/graph.html -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 17:47:36 +0100, Martin Gregorie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >GPS time is UTC time and I'd assume the same is true for Loran. not according to this site that has clocks running on all three. They are out slightly. http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On 25 Jun 2007 18:46:25 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >TAI really does seem like the most absolute--if you are a user in >orbit or on Mars, then UTC timestamps will seem pretty meaningless and >artificial. According to Einstein all time is local time, so perhaps our wish for a clean UT is a pipedream. To add to the confusion you have GPS, Loran and Julian day also used as scientific times. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:04:50 +0100, Martin Gregorie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >TAI? Care to provide a reference? see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/tai.html -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On 25 Jun 2007 18:46:25 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >You cannot accurately compute >the number of seconds between Nixon's resignation and 1800 UTC today, >unless you take into account the leap seconds have been occurred >between then and now. There are two valid answers to those questions. In a court of law, say did some document arrive before deadline, you must use civil time. Arguing leap seconds would not fly. On the other hand, if you used civil seconds to computer satellite orbits, tiny errors mount up quickly in the calculation. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:14:08 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >- Stick to astronomical time, which is absolutely consistent but > which drifts from legal time? depends what you are measuring. IF you are doing astronomy, your advice would apply. If you are doing payrolls, you want effectively to pretend the leap seconds never happened, just as Java does. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:33:04 -0700, James Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >1) subsecond resolution - milliseconds or, preferably, more detailed >2) not bounded by Unix timestamp 2038 limit >3) readable in Java >4) writable portably in Perl which seems to mean that 64-bit values >are out >5) readable and writable in Python >6) storable in a free database - Postgresql/MySQL Unix gets in trouble in 2038 only with 32-bit timestamps. Java's 64-bit longs are fine. If you need code to create timestamps, you can modify parts of BigDate to run in Perl or Python. see http://mindprod.com/products1.html#BIGDATE To get more detailed, just use a unix long timestamp multiplied by 1000 to track in microseconds. You can use MS nanosecond timestamps. see http://mindprod.com/products1.html#FILETIMES just store them as longs in the database. The only catch is ad-hoc queries won't work with them. JDBC out the box should be fine. one of : DATEjava.sql.Date TIMEjava.sql.Time TIMESTAMP java.sql.Timestamp BIGINT long will be what you need. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Software Needs Philosophers
On 21 May 2006 02:15:31 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >FACT: Java has no first-class functions and no macros. This results in >warped code that hacks around the problem, and as the code base grows, >it takes on a definite, ugly shape, one that's utterly unique to Java. You need to back up a sweeping statement like that with an least an example code showing how it could much better be handled with macros. Java has lots of macro languages, including C++'s preprocessor. What it does not have is a sanctioned one. It has instead on-the-fly code generation. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/onthefly.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Tabs versus Spaces in Source Code
On Mon, 15 May 2006 02:44:54 GMT, Eli Gottlieb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Actually, spaces are better for indenting code. Agreed. All it takes is one programmer to use a different tab expansion convention to screw up a project. Spaces are unambiguous. Ideally though you should run code through a beautifier before checkin to avoid false deltas with people manually formatting code slightly differently. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: What Languages to Hate
On 27 Apr 2006 14:22:03 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >What Languages to Hate Come, if you are as experienced as you claim you know that comp.lang.java.advocacy is the home of language wars and commentary on them, not comp.lang.java.programmer. It is one thing for a topic to drift but quite another to deliberately post your initial message in the wrong place. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
On 26 Apr 2006 12:29:33 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close >to harrassment from the law's perspective. and what you do Xah, is very close to spam, another form of harassment. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
On 25 Apr 2006 12:21:43 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Criticism versus Constructive Criticism I think you would do better to put this sort of thing on a website rather than post it in a newsgroup. It is too pretentious for a newsgroup. Newsgroups are about question and answer. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: DO NOT USE JAVA BECAUSE IT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE
On 31 Mar 2006 20:59:16 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Programing Languiges Are Ment to be free. That is why i am starting The >Coo De Tar thats french for Blow of state it is a flash/java >alternative and if you are going to use a server side languige use >Perl,Python or better yet Ruby. What is the point of a languige without >a standerd and without a open source distrabution. Coo De Tar will be >released as a api for perl,python and ruby. Java sucks because it IS >NOT FREE. I AM A GNU GUY I BELEVE THAT SOFTWARE MUST AND SHALL BE >FREE!! do not use java because it is an oxymoron If you can't even spell, how do you hope to create a language better than Java? Oxymoron? Look that up in the dictionary. Why NOT open source? Check how many upturned turtle icons there are in the Java glossary next to free software. Without money coming in to support it, the project dies when the original author gets bored. Java has a standard, see the JLS see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jls.html What it lacks is an INDEPENDENT standards body. However Java is in much tighter shape than C++, SQL or any of the languages that DO have a standards body. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: What is Expressiveness in a Computer Language
On 19 Mar 2006 13:03:18 -0800, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >One thing commonly misunderstood in computing industry is the notion of >expressiveness. If a language has a vocabulary of (smile, laugh, grin, >giggle, chuckle, guffaw, cackle), Expressive for a natural language refers to the language's ability to generate precisely generate moods, and move people emotionally in a minimum of words. Expressiveness in computer languages refers to the language's ability to persuade the computer to produce some result in a minimum of words. Another measure might be how smoothly elements of the language map onto elements of the problem domain. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: The Concepts and Confusions of Pre-fix, In-fix, Post-fix and Fully Functional Notations
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 02:08:11 GMT, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Try pressing Ctrl-R when his message is visible. I'm also using Agent, and >that toggles his extended characters from quoted-printable to visible for >me. that swaps fixed and variable pitch fonts. I gather you have one of your fonts configured without many chars in it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: The Concepts and Confusions of Pre-fix, In-fix, Post-fix and Fully Functional Notations
On 17 Mar 2006 00:58:55 -0800, "Fuzzyman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Hmmm... it displays fine via google groups. Maybe it's the reader which >is 'non-compliant' ? I am using Agent. You configure your database with an encoding, which is by default the platform encoding, not UTF-8. I have just flipped it over to UTF-8. We'll see if that makes Xah's future UTF-8 messages more readable. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: The Concepts and Confusions of Pre-fix, In-fix, Post-fix and Fully Functional Notations
On 15 Mar 2006 22:20:52 -0800, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >e. For example, the in-fix >notation =E2=80=9C(3+(2*5))>7=E2=80=9D is written as =E2=80=9C3 2 5 * + 7 >= >=E2=80=9D, where the Not that Mr. Lee has ever shown much interest in feedback, but you pretty well have stick to vanilla ASCII to get your notation through unmangled on newsgroups. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: JINI service -- Python client
On 6 Jan 2006 11:17:58 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >does anybody knows how to use JINI service from Python? IF you use it from JPython, it is almost identical to using it from Java. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jini.html http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jpython.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: the bug-reporting attitude
On 2 Jan 2006 13:16:26 -0800, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >When a software is ostensibly incorrect, and if it is likely in >connection to egregious irresponsibility as most software companies are >thru their irresponsible licensing, the thing one should not do is to >fawn up to their ass as in filing a bug report, and that is also the >least effective in correcting the software. I think a lot of us have a problem with you pontificating in such a grandiose style when you have not first proved you know what you are talking about with participation in the discussions of day to day coding problems. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: application and web app technologies
On 2 Jan 2006 10:24:54 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > * Java/JSP -- We have already made the decision to go with Java, but >we haven't started with it, and have not committed to Java. > * Python -- Some of us have had limited experience with Python. > * Ruby -- We have a Ruby advocate here, but no one knows anything >about it. In many shops, perhaps yours too, you are relying on volunteers. The problem is they suddenly disappear on you leaving no notes. In that situation, you want to push for as vanilla technology as possible so that you have maximal chance the next guy will already be familiar with the tools. >From that point of view Java is a nice choice, as is MySQL and JSP. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Responsible Software Licensing
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:42:52 -0800, robic0 wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >If the software opens a file and is in the middle of writing to it, >then the user dumps the power to the machine and ends up having to >reformat, thereby losing all his data, at what point does the >liability stop? And how is fault proven or dished out? Does the >law specifically state "repeatability" in its language? It would expect it to work much the way a car works. If you have an accident, that is your fault. If the fuel pump is badly designed so it catches fire, that in the manufacturers fault. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Examples of Quality Technical Writing
On 17 Dec 2005 19:34:36 -0800, "Lars Rune Nøstdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >hi, >everyone thinks youreoay faggot and that youreh stupid .. now go >fugkght yourselfes If you want to insult someone, please spell it correctly and be accurate. Your anger has nothing to do with his sexual preference. In the process you got me thinking about plonking you to avoid ever helping a bigot with his Darwinian quest. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Responsible Software Licensing
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:34:21 -0500, "Matt Garrish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Please do us all the favour of taking a basic literacy course. You aren't >even close half the time, which just confirms you're a halfwit. are you bawling out robico or Xah? Attributions are necessary for personal attacks. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PHP = Perl Improved
On 9 Dec 2005 11:15:16 -0800, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >recently i got a project that involves the use of php. In 2 days, i >read almost the entirety of the php doc. Finding it a breeze because it >is roughly based on Perl, of which i have mastery. that's very lovely, but off topic. Trolling for language flame wars belong is comp.lang.java.advocacy. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Right I understand that. You could have complied simply by only selling >computers with Windows preinstalled. In other words, you could have treated >this the same as a demand for franchise or exclusivity if you had wanted to. It is obvious to everyone WHY MS did this, to maintain monopoly. But ignore motive for a while and see what they actually did and exactly how they intended to carry out he threat of destroying my business. What they did is clearly criminal. The hard part is proving it. Like any smart criminal who makes a threat, MS left no paper trail.. 1. it was a threat to destroy a business -- e.g vandalise tens of thousands of dollars of property. For all practical purpose they threatened to steal my business. It would be roughly the same dollar value as threatening to burn down a large house. 2. it was a threat to force me to commit a criminal act -- namely extract money from people and hand it to Microsoft and give those people nothing of value in return. That in principle is no different from demanding I go out an night and rob people and give MS the proceeds. The selected victims were those who expressed a contempt for MS products by refusing to buy or even have any need for them. 3. What MS did was theft, namely taking money from people and giving them nothing of value in return against their will. What if MS had simply made the threat without being specific about how they were going to carry it off? Would you consider MS so innocent then? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with >you if you broke your agreements with them. I am going to summarise this then drop out. My blood pressure is at a boil. I was a computer retailer. We built custom computers. I had 8 people working for me. This was in the time prior to Win95 when IBM had a clearly technically superior solution with OS/2 to MS's Windows 3.1 I had no contract of any kind with MS. I never bought anything from them directly. I was far too small a fish. I bought the components including software through dozens of wholesale suppliers. MS threatened to put any retailer out of business who would not co-operate with them in extorting money from people who had no use for MS Windows who explicitly for various reasons did not want to buy MS windows. To me that is no different from a popsicle manufacturer demanding I sell $200 popsicles with every machine I sold. The machines needed MS Windows no more than they needed a popsicle. The particular way MS threatened to put me out of business was by threatening to arm twist all wholesalers to refuse to sell MS product to me, which any retailer needed to survive in those days. It was obviously quasi legal or the threats would have had paper to back them up so I could go to court now to sue the fuckers. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with >you if you broke your agreements with them. You could have a more productive debate with a talking coke machine than you. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Right, they send gun-wielding thugs to use force against people. That's >a lot like refusing to do business with people who won't uphold their >contractual obligations. You stupid fuck! How many times do I have to tell you. There was NO contract. Just a THREAT to make me do what they wanted, to go along with their extortion racket. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:07:50 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >That is a bit questionable, I admit. It is questionable because the >intent is pretty obviously to get the individuals more interested in being >nice to you than looking out for the interests of their employers when they >make their purchasing decisions. I don't think this was as reprehensible as what MS did. For a start, everyone could refuse the trip if they wanted without dire consequences. They could also refuse to go out partying each night with the salesmen. They could refrain from alcohol (as I did). Even though I don't think in most cases the salesmen went so far as to purchase hookers or lap dancers, they did after the evening's revelry know something about the client that potentially could be very embarrasing if it were revealed to a spouse, without the tiniest hint of a threat to do so. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:31:41 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to >compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy >a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to >pay full retail for the OSes. Through intimidation, MS managed to control the entire retail computer market in Vancouver BC to the extent you could not buy even the most stripped down computer without having to buy a copy of Windows with it, whether you wanted it or not. You might not want it because you bought OS/2. You might not want it because you already owned Windows from your older machine you were upgrading. You might not want it because somebody stole your machine and they did not steal all your software masters. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:13:39 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >To put this in perspective, IBM's salespeople made much nastier >threats in their heyday. Dick Toewes, head of Inland Natural Gas, was >in charge of a tender for a new mainframe to do billing. I was >working on the Univac bid at the time. He said that the IBM salesman >said to him, "We know you have an eight year old little girl. We know >she walks along X street every day on her way to school. It would be >a terrible thing if somebody hurt her." The tactic Univac/Burroughs/Prime used, at least for big sales, was for example invite the potential customer to view some installation to talk to a satisfied client about how they were using their gear. There might be a convenient client in say ... Las Vegas. The game then became to get the client to get drunk and laid and do crazy things to help very uptight people cut loose. On one of these trips, we ran through fields chasing fireflies. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:49:27 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > >I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that >Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the >absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that >they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? They were demanding I sell a copy of windows with every machine I constructed, whether the customer wanted or not, even if the customer had us install some other OS. The threat was that I did not comply, they would put me out of business by arranging that my wholesalers would stop selling any MS product to me, with veiled threat of even worse strangulation. What I don't think you understand this threat would was just as effective in putting he out of business as threatening to sending in goons every week to smash my shop to pieces. I could at least have a chance of legal recourse with the vandals. It will be very hard to prosecute MS for their crimes because they commit them much the way the Mafia does. No one has any paper. Everyone was terrified of MS and would never dream of going public. I have talked about this publicly many times because it always looked as if I were going to die in a few years anyway. To put this in perspective, IBM's salespeople made much nastier threats in their heyday. Dick Toewes, head of Inland Natural Gas, was in charge of a tender for a new mainframe to do billing. I was working on the Univac bid at the time. He said that the IBM salesman said to him, "We know you have an eight year old little girl. We know she walks along X street every day on her way to school. It would be a terrible thing if somebody hurt her." I wrote a tender for about $1 million in computer equipment for BC Hydro gas. There were many bidders hoping to get a foothold in a solidly IBM shop. IBM sent a weird chap to see me, dressed as a gangster, talking in a gangster accent, with a strange tic like Dustin Hoffman's Ratso Rizzo in midnight cowboy. He made no specific threats, but his act was straight out of Hollywood,"you knows what I means" warning me about the "consequences" of picking anything but IBM, how I might get the reputation as unreliable..." There were the standard tactics on $1 million contracts. Imagine the dirty tricks for the big ones. Mind you, back then $1 million was serious money, especially when you considered the no-bid followons over the years. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:58:42 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >>I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that >>Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the >>absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that >>they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? > >This was all under the table. The other thing to understand is almost no one buys straight from Microsoft. One wholesale side there are levels of distributors. The threat is if you don't comply and they catch you, they will see to it none of your wholesalers will sell to you. No contracts involved anywhere. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:49:27 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that >Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the >absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that >they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? This was all under the table. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:48:25 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >> We are not talking about legal agreements. We are talking junior Mafia >> style enforcement. > >Can you cite any evidence of Microsoft actually using or threatening >force? YES . Have you not read a word I said. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >There is no different to Microsoft beween a bare computer and one >preloaded with Linux or FreeBSD. One can quickly be converted to other with >minimal cost of effort. In the market, bare PCs really do compete with >Windows PCs. You think it is OK to force someone into a choice of committing a criminal act with the alternative of losing their established business and having to put 8 employees out of work. What religion do you belong to? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >The Microsoft agreement is also up front. It's not "imposed" in any >sense except that it's one of the conditions for buying Windows wholesale. No it was not . It was never on paper. It was not imposed until I had been in business for at least 5 years. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:28:46 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I'm a bit curious about this. If I were a business person, I would >simply have created two busineses (two accounts, etc.). One business >sells only machines with MS on and pays the MS tax on all its machines. >One business sells only machines without MS on and pays the MS tax on >none of its machines. > >What's up with that? Try the same thing to deal with a Mafia extortion racket. We are not talking about legal agreements. We are talking junior Mafia style enforcement. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 26 Oct 2005 18:05:45 +0200, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >> IBM seems to have had a history of squeezing out competition in the >> same way Microsoft has, if I recall correctly. > >... and were told not to by a court. Which is the whole reason for the >existence of IBM clones, whether PCs or mainframes. Back in the early days, IBM was just as bad as MS. Competition and some smackdown by the DOJ, have made them much better behaved. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:53:07 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Umm, it's not a judgment. Microsoft said you can sell Windows and other >operating systems, but there will be a charge for every machine you sell >without Windows -- if you want to be able to buy Windows wholesale. Someone >could comply with this by not selling any other operating systems at all and >never pay the fee. Therefore, this is a lesser restriction than saying you >can only sell Windows wholesale if you don't sell or offer any competing >systems. If I have the right to say you can't use my car at all, I have the >lesser right to impose the lesser restriction that you can only use my car >if you pay me $10. It makes a big difference that MS has a monopoly. If I open an washing machine store and Maytag says, "we only sell wholesale to you if you agree to sell our brand exclusively." What Microsoft did is different for three reasons: 1. the Maytag agreement made up front, not imposed to shut down a business who has never signed a prior exclusivity contract. 2. The appliance store has lots of other brands to sell. In my case, failing to comply with MS's illegal and immoral demand would put me out of busness. They were forcing me into commit criminal acts or lose my business. 3. Maytag makes the machines. In the computer instance, we at CMP custom build the computers. Microsoft have no business telling me what to do when they supplied only one component. I could not even sell a BARE computer. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: a Haskell a Day
On 26 Oct 2005 00:38:23 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >A Haskell A Day: Manifesto This is the wrong newsgroup. Had you done the same for Java, comp.lang.java.help would be the place to post it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:49:46 -0400, Brian Utterback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > Some of those steps were illegal by U.S. >law. There is also the matter of the Bush administration interfering in the DOJ prosecution of Microsoft first thing when they got elected. Can you smell corruption? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:03:36 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >You don't care that because of Microsoft's neglect, there are millions of >zombie PCs running their sub-standard OS across the world, sending >hundreds of millions of spam emails? Of course he cares. He is a shill. He licks that hand that feeds him. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:36:37 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >> Yes, it certainly is. However, it is also Microsoft's right as a seller >> to refuse discounts to those who also sell competing products. You may not It was not a discount. I was being denied the right to buy from any wholesaler. The "deal" MS offered was that I as an independent retailer had to by ALL my MS OS products retail if I wanted to sell even one machines without Windows. That would have been easily enough to put any retailer out of business if he did not comply. Even in retrospect, when I kick myself for abandoning my principles, It would still be a tough decision. 1. I had eight people working for me who would have become unemployed. 2. The city would have lost one of its most ethical retailers. 3. Microsoft would STILL have won. 4. I would have had to put up taunts from people calling me crazy for destroying my business in what they would see as a vainglorious attempt to stop the Microsoft juggernaut. What MS did was put me in a position where felt I had little choice but to violate my OWN moral code of conduct. That is what has me so pissed. It is bad enough to be extorted from. It even worse to be forced into a racket to extort others. If any one here considers what MS did acceptable I am glad by their public stance they have warned others off ever having business dealings with them because their low standards of conduct. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:21:45 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >2) There are other realistic competing operating systems. In this case, >you were foolish to agree to Microsoft's deal. You lost out on the realistic >competing markets. That is, unless Windows only really was a better deal, in >which case you were wise to take the deal and have no reason to be upset. The actuality at the time was the vast majority of my business was Windows. People would ask about OS/2 and when they asked around town and discovered because of the MS dirty deal it cost way more, they lost interest. I could not have made a living selling only OS/2. It is was a very difficult business to survive in as it was and I was already at a disadvantage because of my insistence on not cutting corners the way my competitors did. Every once in a while I run into one of my machines I built back in the early 90s still going without a hitch over a decade later. I don't think I could make it clearer. What MS did was wrong and I will to my dying day curse them for it. If I were a Christian, I would put it this way. The pressured me into selling my soul. They did not tempt me into it. They threatened to destroy my business and my livelihood if I did not knuckle under. That is extortion. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:06:36 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Do you think it would be immoral if Microsoft said, "we will only sell >Windows wholesale to dealers who don't sell other operating systems?" I had an existing independent business. I was not as though I were an MS franchise. They imposed this extortion well into my business's life. My choice was comply or go out of business. It was not as if I had a choice of sell Hondas or sell Kias if I did like the franchise deal. To my way of thinking what MS did was similar to a the only magasine wholesaler in town telling retailers it had to sell kiddie porn under the table or pay full retail for all magazines. I broke my own ethical code rather than go out of business. I will never forgive MS for putting me in that position. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:59:33 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I think you need to look up "extortion" in a dictionary. In the days prior to Win95, Microsoft said "Co-operate with us is this immoral scheme to screw OS/2 or go out of business. Your choice." I call that extortion, even if their lawyers were careful enough to skirt the letter of the law. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:35:13 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I see that you cannot make a reasoned argument against the fact that >property in the form of houses is taxed in America. And what has his inability to do that to your satisfaction got to do with the price of eggs? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:16:24 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>As well as blame. The commercialization of the Internet was grossly >>mismanaged. Take the InterNIC - please! > >As global bureaucracies go, I think they have done a good job. Can >you imagine herding the cats of egotistical dictators and politicians >from every country on earth who have not a clue about what the >function of domain are? Imagine assigning two letter abbreviations to 200 five years olds and getting them to accept their assignments. That would be a much easier task. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:54:58 -0300, "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As well as blame. The commercialization of the Internet was grossly >mismanaged. Take the InterNIC - please! As global bureaucracies go, I think they have done a good job. Can you imagine herding the cats of egotistical dictators and politicians from every country on earth who have not a clue about what the function of domain are? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:46:53 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Or would you like to suggest that Microsoft's board of directors should be >allowed carte blache to break any law, commit any deed, so long as it >makes Microsoft money? Why should the standards of acceptable conduct be any lower for groups of people (namely corporations) than individuals? It would be like excusing bad behaviour based on other group memberships such as churches or gangs. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 01:00:31 GMT, Roedy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >The choice was go along with MS arm twisting or go out of business. > >I call that extortion. I deeply resent this, because they not only ripped me off, they put me a in position I felt compelled to become part of their dirty business scheme. I am angrier for my own uncleanness than I am at my actual financial losses. I despise them for corrupting me. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:10:24 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If the deal didn't give you more than it cost you, all you had to do was >say 'no'. I understand the frustration at being forced to pay for something >what it is worth. The choice was go along with MS arm twisting or go out of business. I call that extortion. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:27 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > There is no way Microsoft could have expected the >market to be defined in this way and no way to argue that Microsoft had any >reason to believe their conduct was illegal. If what they did to me in the 90s was not illegal it damn well should have been. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:07:51 GMT, "Mike Schilling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >his status >as employee gives him no additional rights or responsibilities in this >respect. It may not be so in law, but I think most moral codes put more onus on the employee than the average citizen. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:15:03 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Did I say their obligation was to secure their shareholders as much >profit as possible? I said their obligation was to their shareholders. You are literally saying people work for a company have an obligation to the shareholders. That is too obvious to be bothered with announcing. The employees take the shareholder's money, so obviously they have an obligation to produce something in return. When I read your words, I think you really mean this is the prime or sole obligation of an employee. I disagree with that. There are many loyalties that compete. Personally, the loyalty to the preservation of my planet is far above loyalty to any company. For example, I would feel a moral obligation to be a whistleblower of actions of a company that was destroying the environment. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 19 Oct 2005 09:41:09 GMT, Antoon Pardon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As far as I understand you, the company should ship the faulty model. This is what they do. However, I find it odd people seriously suggesting that is the way society SHOULD run. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:54:14 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >They have obligations to their clients because (and only because) >failure to provide the services they contract to provide will result in >lawsuits and harm to the shareholders. All other obligations come from the >harm these failures will do to the shareholders. That's the view of Republican, but it is not the only view. Some might say the law trumps that. It does not matter if breaking the law would be more profitable, you still don't do it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:10:55 GMT, Alan Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >To all the shit-for-brains trolls that are polluting these groups >with this crap, which I haven't even bothered to read: A single thread does not pollute a group. It is trivially easy to ignore a thread. If your newsreader does not support that feature, try an different newsreader. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/newsgroups.html It is a big thread. Obviously people are interested in it even if you are not. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:18:31 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Perhaps you aren't following the thread, but I was talking about the >obligations a company has, not the obligations any individual has. And I was >talking about obligations *to* individuals. To me that makes no sense. Microsoft is an abstraction. It can't do anything. It can't make decisions. Only the individuals to work for it or on the board can, though they may do it in Microsoft's name. If you want to talk about moral action, obligation etc. you can't divorce that from the people who do the actions. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:16:32 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >No, I did not. I said that their obligation is to their shareholders. > >> If that is not what you mean, I think you need to hedge more. > >I was perfectly clear. This is a lot of deliberate misunderstanding >going on in this thread and very little of it is from my side. > You have a problem because there are many other people saying similar things to you who mean something much more extreme. If you don't intend that, you need to be more precise in your language. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:34:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > As for obligations to community, no, there is no such obligation. An >executive who devoted his company to his community against his shareholders' >wishes should be fired. The company exists as a vehicle to execute the >desires of the shareholders. That's why they get to vote on who runs it. Why should loyalty to company trump all other loyalties -- family, law, species, community, country, religion ... ? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:30:42 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >No, taken stupidly. Hint: would or would not MS executives disobeying >the law constitute a betrayal of their obligation to their shareholders? You stated it literally as if making maximum profit for the shareholders were the only consideration in determining conduct. If that is not what you mean, I think you need to hedge more. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 13:21:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : >existed then. > >Yes, he deserves credit for what he did. He nevertheless created a >false impression in what he said. If he hadn't created that false >impression, there would not have been any jokes about him. If all he >said was what he actually did, this would never have been an issue. It is standard procedure to twist another politician's words and tease him like a gang of 4 year olds. Think of poor Mr. Bush. People quote him all the time. :-) See http://mindprod.com/politics/bushisms.html -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 12:34:18 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : > > "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the > initiative in creating the Internet." He did just that. Think about it. Without Gore, the Internet would never have been delayed perhaps indefinitely. Without any of he technical people, someone else would have done the same work. Even the guys who did the low level protocols credit Gore. Your forget how much abuse folk like you heaped on Gore when he was pushing the "information super highway" as it was known back then. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:53:29 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>> >>> Wrong. The only obligation Microsoft has is to their shareholders. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, you are a psychopath. > >That's almost as convincing as "that's what you think". If your only obligation is to a group of person, that makes you a sort of slave. What about obligations to family, community, yourself? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:53:29 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >The only obligation Microsoft has is to their shareholders. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, you are a psychopath. > >That's almost as convincing as "that's what you think". Taken literally, you think MS has no obligation to obey the law, to its customers, to its employees. I don't think you will find many CEOs espousing those sentiments, though you will in alt.politics.bush from those who have just read their first book outside of school reading and picked an Ayn Rand novel. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 18:02:53 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >If you think you can direct the development of human behaviour by not >buying a Microsoft product, be my guest. Refusing to take any action against them is also immoral. I think you are morally obligated to take some reasonable action to counter Microsoft, effective in and of itself or not. Your counsel is similar to those who tell people it is futile to vote. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke I had an experience that changed my completely on that sort of issue. I started gay lib in my part of the world purely as a "futile moral gesture". Within 2 years to my utter amazement, we had the gay rights legislation. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:59:47 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Essentially, IM can do pretty-much everything email can these days, but >the reverse is not true at all. The problem with IM is the various IM schemes don't talk to each other. You need a client that knows all the IM protocols. But that seems to be happening with Jabber and Trillian. You have too much reliance on a central server. You have to trust the relaying company. I think it is time that nearly all mail was routinely and transparently end to end encrypted, with the exception of long enclosures that are explicitly marked not confidential. You still have spam to a lesser extent and strangers just wanting to talk. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:12:23 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >> - Any ability to automatically generate hits on sender-specified >> servers when the email is read. > >I hadn't though of that one. As well as use in DDOS attacks, that >can help let spammers know if they have reached a human :-| If you think about it, much as you hate spammers you WANT them to have that information. If you never read spam, and they know that, they eventually might stop sending it to you and focus on the nitwits who read it. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 06:57:47 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >>>That an HTML standard (ISO/IEC 15445:2000) and an HTML recommendation by >>>w3c (4.01 for example) are two different things, and mixing them up by >>>calling both standards is a bad thing. >> >> Because ... what are the consequences? > >If you mean if you are put in jail for 20 years, and tortured, none. No. ANY consequences. You have not explained the downside. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:40:26 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I didn't think unicode domain names existed. you can even buy them. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/domainnames.html under "Chinese Domain Names". -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:21:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I don't think any of it bordered on force or fraud. However, their >obligation to their shareholders requires them to do anythign that borders >on force/fraud so long as it isn't force/fraud. I avoid MS products whenever possible. Surely others feel the same way because we have had it up to the teeth with MS dirty tactics. That has to be factored into profitability as well. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 18 Oct 2005 06:20:56 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >That an HTML standard (ISO/IEC 15445:2000) and an HTML recommendation by >w3c (4.01 for example) are two different things, and mixing them up by >calling both standards is a bad thing. Because ... what are the consequences? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:44:55 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >It is not Microsoft's obligation to be "fair". It is Microsoft's >obligation to push their vision of the future of computing, one with >Microsoft's products at the center, using anything short of force or fraud. I think that what they did borders on force/fraud. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:43:16 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I understand why the argument is invalid. I'm presenting it as an >example of a similar invalid argument. Not every post is meant to contradict or inform the OP. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:37:35 -0700, Alan Balmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >You've been around long enough to learn to recognize this poster and >ignore him. Sounds like your plonk filter is on the fritz then. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:25:18 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Actually, *any* company with a defacto monopoly pulling such a stunt >would be found in violation of the law. Such companies operate under >different legal rules than other companies. This was true when IBM was >the company that was dancing with the DOJ, and it'll be true long >after MS is nothing more than a memory. I don't know if anyone has >spelled this out to MS, but IBM was told so in no uncertain terms. MS would still be dancing with the DOJ hand Gates not bribed Bush to pull the plug on the prosecution. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:36:53 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >As for it being illegal, it was illegal only because if was Microsoft >doing it. There's nothing illegal about a car dealer not selling a car >without an engine. But that is not what was happening. It was not Microsoft selling computers with MS OSs. MS was arm-twisting retailers like me to bundle a copy of Windows with every sale whether the customer wanted it or not. I think some imagine a computer is worthless without Windows. That gave their OS a grossly unfair price advantage. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:29:36 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >By the way, this is based on the same flawed premise that a lot of >post-Y2K griping was based on. It went like this, "wow, we get all concerned >and spent all this money on a problem that never even happened". Well, >perhaps it didn't happen because we were all concerned and spent all this >money on it. The worry was that the work would not be completed in time. The work had to be done or the programs would simply stop working. There was no way to avoid the expense. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:17:03 -0400, Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Yup. When NS was the 800 lb gorilla on they acted like MS, I think you would need to give some examples. They gave away a free browser. What other evil thing did they do? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 17 Oct 2005 03:17:16 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Which standards? Again: w3c is not an official standards organization. What does it take in your book for a standards organisation to be "official" -- a Swiss head office, a room at the UN, a branch on the US government tree? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 12:30:06 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote or quoted : >The only reason that Linux/OpenOffice/GIMP/Apachee/MySQL/ The catch is there are SO many SQL engines, even if MS bought up MySQL and PostGre SQL one of the others would just pop to the fore as the new free standard bearer. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/sqlvendors.html Here is a field where there is healthy competition. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Jargons of Info Tech industry
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 23:24:21 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bengt Richter) wrote or quoted : >>I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext >>only newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML. >How about pdf? End users HATE PDF. Why? It takes so long for the reader to load. It is so slow on older machines to render and scroll. My complaint with it is it is Adobe proprietary. This make the tools very expensive. I like PDF because: 1. documents have to be prepared before posting. This means you don't have malformed syntax in them. 2. You can reasonably quickly turn computer printouts or paper documents into web content. 3. You don't have to guess what the end user will see. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:49:58 +0200, "Jeroen Wenting" wrote or quoted : >They are the ones who lowered the price of shrinkwrapped software for home >and office application from thousands or tens of thousands to hundreds of >dollars. Come now. While software generally has reduced in price, MS software has increased. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:22:58 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >I guess I wasn't explicit enough. Most people who want cars also want an >engine. Some don't. Dealers could sell cars and engines separately. They >just (generally) don't. There is nothing illegal or immoral about this. I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to pay full retail for the OSes. That meant a customer who wanted OS/2 had to effectively also buy an unwanted copy of Windows. How could OS/2 compete? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:48:18 -0700, "David Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Go down to your local car dealer and see if you can buy a new car >without an engine. Given that that the OS and the hardware come from completely different companies, I think that a specious analogy. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 05:22:47 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >No, it's a recommendation, an advise, nothing else. Otherwise they would >call it a standard. Why do you think W3C calls it recommendations? Because >it are no standards. There is an ISO HTML standard though, but when people >babble about HTML standards they talk about W3C *recommendations*. What do you think the Internet is based on? RFCs. That stands for "Request For Comment". It is an in-sort of Internet humour to name standards that way. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 16 Oct 2005 00:47:09 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Ok, let me spell it out for you: If all your applications are web based, >and the OS shouldn't matter, why do Linux distributions matter? The point is you make your choice based on quality of the OS and distribution, not whether it can run a given piece of software. Web apps, Java and other multiplatform tools force OSes to compete on quality, not on proprietary lockin. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 15 Oct 2005 22:47:45 GMT, John Bokma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : >Opera seems to be making money with it. Also, Firefox gets money from >Google kickback. Maybe MS had a similar idea in mind, but it failed >(remember how they wanted to add ads to keywords in webpages?) There also had that Passport thing. They probably figured they would take over Internet commerce and get rich off the user fees. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:30:41 GMT, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >>Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful >>than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb >>mainframe terminals. > >Utter hogwash. Computer hardware would still have followed the path it >did. I suspect we'd all be using WordPerfect or AbiWord on some kind of >Unix clone, and I also suspect application integration wouldn't be as >commonplace as it now is, but it's silly to credit Microsoft with the >ubiquity of powerful computers. Granted MS did figure out all kinds of ways to waste RAM and CPU power thus forcing people to upgrade to more powerful computers. What might have happened with someone else leading the charge it we would be using less powerful computers but getting more spritely response. That is like saying you credit SUV owners for any advances in alternative energy because they helped burn up the oil faster. MS has held BACK computer evolution by tying their OS so heavily to the Pentium architecture. The chip architecture has nowhere near enough registers. MS refused to believe the Internet was more than a passing fad. They are still frantically patching security holes in their OS over a decade later. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On 14 Oct 2005 19:01:42 -0700, "Xah Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote or quoted : > >Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's >not monopoly, i don't know what is. They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not because they have a large market share. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
