Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Grant Edwards wrote: That seems to imply that you think market sucess == technical merits. Unless you mean that Prothon was a technical failure rather than a market-share failure... As Prothon never got as far as an alpha stage product, I don't think you could call it a technical success. It may well not have been a technical failure, as it didn't get far enough to become one, but it certainly was NOT a technical success. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Terry Reedy wrote: "Luis M. Gonzalez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... It is as important and "python related" as other projects such as PyPy, Stackless, but I think this is silly. PyPy is an alternate implementation of Python, not a different language. Stackless is a compiled extension, like many others, that works with the standard implementation or maybe still a minor modification thereof. Where would you classify Pyrex? Language boundaries are somewhat artificial, but Pyrex clearly doesn't intend to be as similar to Python as PyPy does. Still, it's close enough to almost be considered a language extension. If one wanted to bother, one could probably construct a language slightly more similar to Python than Pyrex, and another slightly less similar. This couldn't continue forever, as the domain is discrete. But it could go a long!! way. One could probably arrive at a graded series of languages between Python and C (probably along several different transformation vectors). And slightly off to the side would be Python 2.5 and C2006 (or whatever year the next version is defined). But some of the languages in the series would be more similar to current Python than is Python 2.5. So. A language is a series of specifications made at differnt times, and has a fuzzy surround of implementations which nearly meet the specifications. And this is true even where one of the implementations itself is designated as the primary specification (because people will argue that this feature or that is wrongly implemented). Still, even given all that, Boo is clearly outside the area that is Python. (One could have a "minimal acceptable distance" which could be thought of as running correctly most of the programs that the core language would run correctly.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
"Luis M. Gonzalez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Terry Reedy wrote: In response to a claim (I presume by LG and snipped by LG) that Boo is as related to Python as PyPy or Stackless, I wrote. >> but I think this is silly. The 'this' that I referred to as silly was the equality part of the claim, not that that Boo has *some* relation to Python. I tried to explain by continuing ... >> PyPy is an alternate implementation of Python, >> not a different language. Stackless is a compiled extension, like many >> others, that works with the standard implementation or maybe still a >> minor modification thereof. > you're right, but what when I say "python related", I mean that it has > something or a lot in common with python, I did not and do not dispute that Boo has some (lesser) degree of relatedness. I continued by suggesting that it was about the same as for Prothon. That there are differences in degree of relatedness was my point. Nor did I or would I claim that the lesser degree of either is so low that neither should ever mentioned here. Terry J. Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Fredrik Lundh wrote: (and by the way, comp.lang.python isn't "the community". most python pro- grammers are elsewhere, and will only read what we post when googling for the answer to some specific problem...) They are busy writing programs in Python, some of them even do it for the money, 9 AM - 5 PM. And specific problems they encounter are driving Python development (in most cases). -- Jarek Zgoda http://jpa.berlios.de/ | http://www.zgodowie.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Grant Edwards wrote: That seems to imply that you think market sucess == technical merits. Unless you mean that Prothon was a technical failure rather than a market-share failure... Since it was clearly both, I'm not sure why you're making this false dichotomy. Trying to sell Spry, Pycs, or whatever its name is this week as being inspired by Prothon, a project that failed in every possible way there it to fail, doesn't impress anybody -- technically, marketing-wise, or any other criteria. -- Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis I have not yet begun to right! -- John Paul Jones -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
On 2004-12-21, Erik Max Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fredrik Lundh wrote: > >> (the site is pointing to a new project, Pycs, whose site is pointing to a new >> project, Spry, "the first dynamic language to have all the best capabilities >> of >> Python, Prothon, and C# (actually C-Omega) in one language", on which >> "work has rarely begun") > > How bizarre is it that they're trying to "sell" Spry by indicating it > uses the "very best" features of Prothon, given that Prothon was a > failed project? That seems to imply that you think market sucess == technical merits. Unless you mean that Prothon was a technical failure rather than a market-share failure... -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Mr and Mrs PED, can at I borrow 26.7 visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Don't worry.. Now we'll make a big group hug therapy and friends again! Cheers, Luis Philippe C. Martin wrote: > Sorry but I really feel this incredible waste of energy is polluting an, > otherwise, excellent and helpful mailing list. > > > Best regards, > > Philippe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Michael Hoffman wrote: And Python uses the very best features of ABC. What's your point? ;-) Not that I've ever even used Prothon, although I thought the way the implementor dropped it into conversation was non-obnoxious. There could be a valuable lesson here. I'm not talking about the way the implementor "dropped it into conversation," I'm talking about the way the language is beyond sold. The blurb on the Web site mentions this as a selling point, and as a subtitle for "The Spry Computer Language": http://spry-lang.org/ Certainly Python mentions ABC in background information on where Python comes from. But Python doesn't mention this as the first sentence in describing what its virtues are! -- Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis I have not yet begun to right! -- John Paul Jones -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
[Roger Binns] That work died due to "a crisis of faith": http://mylist.net/archives/spry-dev/2004-November/72.html [A.M. Kuchling] Soon it will be possible to become a well-known programmer without writing any code at all; just issue grandiose manifestos and plans until everyone is suitably impressed. Well, things are getting better then . It used to be that grandiose manifestos and suitably impressive plans were all you needed to make billions through a stock flotation ;-) <0.5 wink>-ly y'rs, -- alan kennedy -- email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Sorry but I really feel this incredible waste of energy is polluting an, otherwise, excellent and helpful mailing list. Best regards, Philippe -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
"A.M. Kuchling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:22:51 -0800, > Roger Binns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> That work died due to "a crisis of faith": >> http://mylist.net/archives/spry-dev/2004-November/72.html > > Soon it will be possible to become a well-known programmer > without writing any code at all; just issue grandiose manifestos and plans > until everyone is suitably impressed. I hope that I'm retired then. Thomas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
A.M. Kuchling wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:22:51 -0800, Roger Binns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That work died due to "a crisis of faith": http://mylist.net/archives/spry-dev/2004-November/72.html Soon it will be possible to become a well-known programmer without writing any code at all; just issue grandiose manifestos and plans until everyone is suitably impressed. It's very interesting what message you see if you click on the "Next Message" link five times starting in the above message. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Fredrik Lundh wrote: >> Do you have financial conflict of interest too like Fredrik? > > I suggest you do your homework, and post an apology. Immediately. oh, never mind. someone who has the necessary insights, and that I respect, has just apologized for your behaviour. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:22:51 -0800, Roger Binns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That work died due to "a crisis of faith": > http://mylist.net/archives/spry-dev/2004-November/72.html Soon it will be possible to become a well-known programmer without writing any code at all; just issue grandiose manifestos and plans until everyone is suitably impressed. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
"Fredrik Lundh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Terry Reedy wrote: > >> This I again agree with. I understand that Prothon is also a *different* >> though Python inspired language. Also that it is still >> under development. > > http://www.prothon.org/ > >"All work on Prothon has been halted" > > (the site is pointing to a new project, Pycs, whose site is pointing to a new > project, Spry, "the first dynamic language to have all the best capabilities > of > Python, Prothon, and C# (actually C-Omega) in one language", on which > "work has rarely begun") That work died due to "a crisis of faith": http://mylist.net/archives/spry-dev/2004-November/72.html Roger -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:53:01 -0600, Doug Holton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let me say it again then, although I do not know why it threatens people > so much: the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python's. > That is what I said and what is clear from the website. Doug, Boo seems to be interesting, and that's despite your insistence. If it is "virtually identical" or not is largely besides the point. Of course, you have to right the say it, as your personal opinion, whenever you wish. > I already stated that I will not mention boo again, to comply with > Fredrik's wishes and yours. I will refer to CPython, and CPython only. > But I will not be intimidated by the likes of Fredrik Lundh. Trollers > will be held accountable. If it continues at this pace, then I suggest > a weekly troll alert, to educate and prepare the so-called newbies for > the behavior that occurs on this list. At this point you crossed the line, and it was not even a fine one. It is largely off the mark. First, because having "trollers" (sic) to be accountable is not possible - unfortunately. But also, because nobody is intimidating you. More than once people have tried to call you to reason, and you keep bashing people here quite gratuitously. Doug: If anyone is fearing debate here, is you. Disagreement is natural. Be prepared for it, specially if you want to spend time evangelizing people on how great Boo is. And, as Aahz has pointed out before, please don't be afraid of spam and insert a real email address so we can at least direct our responses to you. -- Carlos Ribeiro Consultoria em Projetos blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Doug Holton wrote: >> Istvan Albert wrote: >>> >>> All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs >>> from python. Calling it virtually identical >>> is *very* misleading. >> >> The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet another >> person who has trolled before. See your obvious trolling reply here, > >You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Inconceivable! -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet another person who has trolled before. > Do you have financial conflict of interest too like Fredrik? You'll easily get away by calling me a troll, but trying to make it look like that the effbot is one, that's just hilarious. Istvan. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Michael Hoffman wrote: >> How bizarre is it that they're trying to "sell" Spry by indicating it uses >> the "very best" >> features of Prothon, given that Prothon was a failed project? > > And Python uses the very best features of ABC. did you learn that from reading Python marketing material, or by careful study of "the history of python"-documents? there is a difference... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Erik Max Francis wrote: How bizarre is it that they're trying to "sell" Spry by indicating it uses the "very best" features of Prothon, given that Prothon was a failed project? And Python uses the very best features of ABC. What's your point? ;-) Not that I've ever even used Prothon, although I thought the way the implementor dropped it into conversation was non-obnoxious. There could be a valuable lesson here. -- Michael Hoffman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
> "Doug" == Doug Holton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Doug> I already stated that I will not mention boo again, to Doug> comply with Fredrik's wishes and yours. I will refer to Relax, and go ahead talking about Boo all you want. I for one enjoy reading about it, and probably many others as well. Some people may bitch about it, but, well, that's what people do on usenet. Doug> only. But I will not be intimidated by the likes of Fredrik Doug> Lundh. Trollers will be held accountable. If it continues As mentioned elsewhere it's technically not trolling, but rather old fashioned flaming. Usenet is free-for-all, so people can expect to be flamed occasionally, often without good reason. It's quite rare in c.l.py but it happens. Often all you can do is to swallow it, unless the person in question just lost their temper for a moment and is willing to apologize. That is not not always the case. -- Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
James Stroud wrote: >I think the python community should be prepared to accept an increasing number > of people who just want to get something done with whatever tools they have > available (windows, mac, .net, etc) and with whatever skills they already > have acquired. you know, I've been working with Python for ten years now, and it's always been this way: most Pythoneers just want to get something done. that's why the language is still growing, and is still speading to new interesting problem domains. (and by the way, comp.lang.python isn't "the community". most python pro- grammers are elsewhere, and will only read what we post when googling for the answer to some specific problem...) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: > Do you have financial conflict of interest too like Fredrik? I suggest you do your homework, and post an apology. Immediately. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Fredrik Lundh wrote: (the site is pointing to a new project, Pycs, whose site is pointing to a new project, Spry, "the first dynamic language to have all the best capabilities of Python, Prothon, and C# (actually C-Omega) in one language", on which "work has rarely begun") How bizarre is it that they're trying to "sell" Spry by indicating it uses the "very best" features of Prothon, given that Prothon was a failed project? -- Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis Never had very much to say / Laugh last, laugh longest -- Des'ree -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Terry Reedy wrote: > This I again agree with. I understand that Prothon is also a *different* > though Python inspired > language. Also that it is still under development. http://www.prothon.org/ "All work on Prothon has been halted" (the site is pointing to a new project, Pycs, whose site is pointing to a new project, Spry, "the first dynamic language to have all the best capabilities of Python, Prothon, and C# (actually C-Omega) in one language", on which "work has rarely begun") -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
[Doug Holton] ... > But I will not be intimidated by the likes of Fredrik Lundh. Trollers > will be held accountable. Doug, Doug, Doug. Fredrik isn't a troll. He's a Swede. Trolls are Norwegian. Lighten up, please. Fredrik is usually terse, and sometimes curt (although Americans seem to have a hard time distinguishing those) -- that's his culture and his nature. But he's been a very active and welcome member of the Python community for at least a decade "in spite of" that, and you're the first person I've seen to go on repeatedly about their dislike for his posting style. Try to read him as actually saying something, and you'll rarely be disappointed. If you just can't stand the way he expresses himself anyway, fine, ignore him. He really isn't "a troll" by any sensible meaning of the term. He says what's on his mind, and then shuts up. It's a fact that he's been extremely helpful to countless people here over the years, but if you're looking for touchy-feely welcome or appreciation, don't look to /F for it. That's my job here . the-joy-that-is-python-is-exceeded-only-by-the-joy-that-is-you-ly y'rs - tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Michael Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Doug Holton wrote: >> Istvan Albert wrote: >>> All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs >>> from python. Calling it virtually identical >>> is *very* misleading. >> The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet >> another person who has trolled before. See your obvious trolling >> reply here, > > You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I agree. I also like the quote. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: Istvan Albert wrote: All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs from python. Calling it virtually identical is *very* misleading. The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet another person who has trolled before. See your obvious trolling reply here, You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Michael Hoffman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton said unto the world upon 2004-12-20 18:45: Peter Hansen wrote: Doug Holton wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) I gave such a short answer because the way you framed your "questions" and the context of your post made it clear you are a troll. Your reply here was yet another troll. You are one of the reasons why so-called "newbies" and others are being intimidated away from this list. -Doug Fearing I might be spraying gasoline about: I'm not really a member of the Python community, and haven't posted too much to the list, but I read it regularly and find it quite valuable. I'm a noob and once or twice in posts here have managed to manifest that. Despite that, I've never felt unwelcome. Some context given, let's, for the sake of argument, grant the claim that Peter was trolling. (Though I do wonder if you saw the smiley he employed above.) Then let me ask you this: does pushing that and similar points through several iterations on multiple threads really seem a very good method for making the list appear to be friendly welcoming place that I presume you want it to be? Best to all, Brian vdB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
I agree with you, and I don't understand why so many people insist in "banning" the word "Boo" in this list. What's the problem guys? Is this a taboo or something? Isn't this list open for discussion of all things related to Python? Isn't Boo related to Python? And if you think it is not "related enough", what's the problem if somebody mentions it here? I find interesting the topic and I like to hear about it from time to time, as well as many other topics (prothon, ironpython, stackless, pypy, etc, etc). Please people, relax... peace! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Hans Nowak wrote: Regardless of the merits of Boo, this is comp.lang.python, not comp.lang.boo. The language may *look* like Python, but its inner workings are nothing like Python, as several people have correctly pointed out now. (Just like Java's syntax may look like C or C++ in some areas, but the languages are nowhere near alike.) Pointing out the difference is not trolling. Let me say it again then, although I do not know why it threatens people so much: the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python's. That is what I said and what is clear from the website. I already stated that I will not mention boo again, to comply with Fredrik's wishes and yours. I will refer to CPython, and CPython only. But I will not be intimidated by the likes of Fredrik Lundh. Trollers will be held accountable. If it continues at this pace, then I suggest a weekly troll alert, to educate and prepare the so-called newbies for the behavior that occurs on this list. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: Istvan Albert wrote: Doug Holton wrote: the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs from python. Calling it virtually identical is *very* misleading. The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet another person who has trolled before. See your obvious trolling reply here, for example: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/messages/c57cf0e48827f3de,a750c109b8ee57c3,cf89205a5e93051e,cfb1c7453e1f3c07,58a2dedd1059783e,8a1ee82cc328d023,7a51cdc9ffecbc72,38304f35cb42bb63,fc5e4ae1cbae0248,2de118caa7010b30?thread_id=5a7018d37b7bf4b8&mode=thread&noheader=1&q=boo#doc_a750c109b8ee57c3 Do you have financial conflict of interest too like Fredrik? Or is it just a psychological issue? I have no stake in python or any other language changing or not changing. You guys need to accept change rather than fear it. Regardless of the merits of Boo, this is comp.lang.python, not comp.lang.boo. The language may *look* like Python, but its inner workings are nothing like Python, as several people have correctly pointed out now. (Just like Java's syntax may look like C or C++ in some areas, but the languages are nowhere near alike.) Pointing out the difference is not trolling. -- Hans Nowak http://zephyrfalcon.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Istvan Albert wrote: Doug Holton wrote: the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs from python. Calling it virtually identical is *very* misleading. The syntax is indeed virtually identical to python. You are yet another person who has trolled before. See your obvious trolling reply here, for example: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/messages/c57cf0e48827f3de,a750c109b8ee57c3,cf89205a5e93051e,cfb1c7453e1f3c07,58a2dedd1059783e,8a1ee82cc328d023,7a51cdc9ffecbc72,38304f35cb42bb63,fc5e4ae1cbae0248,2de118caa7010b30?thread_id=5a7018d37b7bf4b8&mode=thread&noheader=1&q=boo#doc_a750c109b8ee57c3 Do you have financial conflict of interest too like Fredrik? Or is it just a psychological issue? I have no stake in python or any other language changing or not changing. You guys need to accept change rather than fear it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Peter Hansen wrote: Doug Holton wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) As noted on the website that I've pointed out to you multiple times now, the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. The functionality however, is more like C#. Sadly your second post hasn't reached my news server, which is quite flaky. Fortunately (checking Google Groups), I see it added nothing of substance, as it merely points to the site again, without addressing my comments about how syntactical similarity or even identity doesn't justify the term "virtually identical", which implies that in all respects one thing is essentially identical to another. I gave such a short answer because the way you framed your "questions" and the context of your post made it clear you are a troll. Your reply here was yet another troll. You are one of the reasons why so-called "newbies" and others are being intimidated away from this list. -Doug -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Terry Reedy wrote: > > [gratuitously] I agree with this... > well, my english is bad. I know! > > but I think this is silly. PyPy is an alternate implementation of Python, > not a different language. Stackless is a compiled extension, like many > others, that works with the standard implementation or maybe still a minor > modification thereof. you're right, but what when I say "python related", I mean that it has something or a lot in common with python, and as such, it could be of interest to any python fan. Why being extremists? Python is a programming language, a tool. It is not a religion, is it? Programmers use different tools, and this could be a very interesting one for someone who already knows python. > > > Prothon, etc... > > This I again agree with. I understand that Prothon is also a *different* > though Python inspired language. Also that it is still under development. > I have no idea of which has diverged more or whether they have mostly gone > in the same or different directions (a possibly interesting topic for a > post). But neither are as 'Python related' as Python itself. > > Terry J. Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
I think the python community should be prepared to accept an increasing number of people who just want to get something done with whatever tools they have available (windows, mac, .net, etc) and with whatever skills they already have acquired. For example (having been in this situation before) a biologist may need to write a program to make a calculation on a dataset so that a paper can be resubmitted with revisions. Maybe this biologist would love to read all of "The Art of Programming" but doesn't have a lot of time to determine that static typing is different than dynamic typing (or learn whatever fancy CS terms get thrown around these days) because a grant is hanging in the balance. For these people, "looks the same", is basically "almost identical". Trust me on that one. The new breed of programmers will grab onto the easiest tools to use (e.g. shallow learning curve) and use them however they can. They will not study for 4 years about "compiler design" and "grammers" and other such esoteric pursuits, because they already studied for biology, or economics, or sociology, or whatever -ology happened to grab them when they were 20. No, the new breed will just want a chart that is a little to complicated to calculate in excel so they can make a figure so they can get out a paper or make a presentation. Unfortunately for the language elitists, python happens to be this type of easy to use tool. In how many other languages is it almost as easy to calculate the eigenvectors of a matrix as it is to write the "hello world" program? I haven't found any--and then again, I haven't looked too hard. And that's the point. So they (read "we") are coming. Be prepared. James On Sunday 19 December 2004 06:39 pm, Peter Hansen wrote: > As one uninterested so far in .NET, and not concerned primarily > with speed, and concerned definitely with maturity and stability, > and not in the least interested in static typing, I thank you > for saving me the time investigating further. > > "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) > > -Peter -- James Stroud, Ph.D. UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics 611 Charles E. Young Dr. S. MBI 205, UCLA 951570 Los Angeles CA 90095-1570 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
"Luis M. Gonzalez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > As for the first ones, there's no reason to bash this project > gratuitelly. [gratuitously] I agree with this... > It is as important and "python related" as other projects > such as PyPy, Stackless, but I think this is silly. PyPy is an alternate implementation of Python, not a different language. Stackless is a compiled extension, like many others, that works with the standard implementation or maybe still a minor modification thereof. > Prothon, etc... This I again agree with. I understand that Prothon is also a *different* though Python inspired language. Also that it is still under development. I have no idea of which has diverged more or whether they have mostly gone in the same or different directions (a possibly interesting topic for a post). But neither are as 'Python related' as Python itself. Terry J. Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Istvan Albert wrote: > All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs > from python. Calling it virtually identical > is *very* misleading. That's right. I wouldn't say it is *virtually identical* because Boo is not Python (and this was clearly stated in its web site). It is an statically typed language while Python is dynamic, and it was designed to run on the .NET framework. However, it's syntax is *very* similar, and I'm sure that any Python aficionado would be able to learn it in a few minutes. > I've downloaded and tried it when you first made this claim > and it turned out that boo couldn't directly run even > the simplest python programs This is because Boo is not Python. It is very similar, but there are some obvious differences. > speed was slower than that of the corresponding python program. > I think this entitles me to be irked by your post above. You should consider that if you don't declare the types (as it is supposed in any statically typed language) or if you don't understand well how its type inference works, Boo would consider each variable as type "object", therefore its execution speed would be similar to that of a dynamic language. I think that if you use Boo correctly, its performance would be as good as any other .NET compliant language. Anyway, Boo is still a work in progress and not ready for production (although quite usable at its current state). Finally, I want to say that although many people in this list may not be interested in this language, I'm sure that there could be many others that will find it very interesting. (Especially those who are forced to work in a Microsoft centric company). In these cases, Boo is like programming in c# with a python-like syntax. As for the first ones, there's no reason to bash this project gratuitelly. It is as important and "python related" as other projects such as PyPy, Stackless, Prothon, etc... I encourage everyone to give it a try, and if still you're not convinced, well, you can ignore any thread that mentions it and go on happily with your life... regards, Luis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. All that boo does is borrows a few syntactical constructs from python. Calling it virtually identical is *very* misleading. I've downloaded and tried it when you first made this claim and it turned out that boo couldn't directly run even the simplest python programs, on top of that execution speed was slower than that of the corresponding python program. I think this entitles me to be irked by your post above. Istvan. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Steve and Steve N°2, I agree with Steve N°1 that we are all entitled to express our oppinions, and this is the way it should be. I don't want to give the impression that I have something personal against anyone here, and I agree that this list is quite civilized, but again, I'm basing my comments in previous posts, not only this one. For example, if someone says something like: > And given that Boo is *not* virtually identical to Python*, > pointing it out to a self-proclaimed newbie with a question > about enums seems like nothing more than an ill-chosen > moment to do a little proselytizing. I get the impression that if the topic raised is not of interest of this person, it shouldn't be mentioned in this list at all. What about the others? I found this comment very interesting. I don't like when someone else comes up and invites the poster to shut up. Let's see another comment: > Why not just start > a thread about Boo and point it out to those of us who > have never heard of it? That wouldn't raise any hackles... By the way, Doug already started this topic, as suggested by Peter, some time ago. And if you search this thread, you'll see how it finished... he was invited to move the thread to another mailing list. I remember also another occasion where I dared to say that Python is slow, and all I got was an onrush of flames. I wanted to discuss about pypy, starkiller, ironpython, and other exciting ongoing projects... but it was imposible, everybody seemed to be very offended and it was impossible to get the thread back on track. This is what I call intolerance. Usually, those people are always the same ones. Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal of this. I just expressed my oppinion. If I offended someone, please accept my most sincere apologies. Regards, Luis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Luis M. Gonzalez wrote: Steve, I didn't want to be agressive at all. Although now that I read again my post, it seems a little bit harsh... But I see that very often in this list, some replies show much of intolerance and very little politeness. And in my oppinion, this is one of these cases. I don't know what Doug Holton did to get such a lesson of posting rules, since I think his comments were expressed in a propper way and they were definetely python related. This is not the first time it happens. A couple of times I suffered myself this kind of attitudes and I chose to keep quiet for the sake of peace, but I think it's time to point out some limits to those who act as self-entitled moderators. Being a moderator is ok, but not being a bouncer. Luis, As a disinterested observer, I would like to go on record as disagreeing with your entire assessment of this situation. I found Peter Hansen's response to Doug Holton quite appropriate. I also disagree with your perception that "very often on this list, some replies show much of intolerance and very little politeness." I think c.l.py is one of the more civil lists going. Steve Waterbury (Yet another Steve) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Luis M. Gonzalez wrote: Steve, I didn't want to be agressive at all. Although now that I read again my post, it seems a little bit harsh... But I see that very often in this list, some replies show much of intolerance and very little politeness. And in my oppinion, this is one of these cases. I don't know what Doug Holton did to get such a lesson of posting rules, since I think his comments were expressed in a propper way and they were definetely python related. This is not the first time it happens. A couple of times I suffered myself this kind of attitudes and I chose to keep quiet for the sake of peace, but I think it's time to point out some limits to those who act as self-entitled moderators. Being a moderator is ok, but not being a bouncer. Well, you are certainly just as entitled to express your opinion as Peter and I are, and I think we are pretty much managing to maintain a civilized tone. Intolerance and impoliteness are actively discouraged on comp.lang.python, and I suspect one of the ways this happens is by people ignoring what sometimes seems like flame bait. Peter is fairly well-known on the group as someone whose Python chops are undeniable, and he's been known to be very helpful with newcomers. He's probably just feeling a bit cranky as the hockey season revs up ... regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Steve, I didn't want to be agressive at all. Although now that I read again my post, it seems a little bit harsh... But I see that very often in this list, some replies show much of intolerance and very little politeness. And in my oppinion, this is one of these cases. I don't know what Doug Holton did to get such a lesson of posting rules, since I think his comments were expressed in a propper way and they were definetely python related. This is not the first time it happens. A couple of times I suffered myself this kind of attitudes and I chose to keep quiet for the sake of peace, but I think it's time to point out some limits to those who act as self-entitled moderators. Being a moderator is ok, but not being a bouncer. Regards, Luis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Luis M. Gonzalez wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: And given that Boo is *not* virtually identical to Python*, pointing it out to a self-proclaimed newbie with a question about enums seems like nothing more than an ill-chosen moment to do a little proselytizing. Why not just start a thread about Boo and point it out to those of us who have never heard of it? That wouldn't raise any hackles... By the way, are you a moderator of this mailing list? I'm asking you because I use to read your daily posts giving guidlines on how to post, what to say or what not to say, and I wonder if this is your role in this group. Is it? Yes. And I'm the guy who answers questions about him :-) Seriously, the role Peter played in this thread is undertaken by many members of the group. They are usually the ones who've been around c.l.py for a long-ish time, and know "the rules" (which, since we don't have a FAQ, are entirely unwritten). By and large we like to run a civil list, and politely pointing out what appear to be transgressions is the best way to keep things that way. You probably realize that c.l.py isn't a moderated newsgroup. regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Peter Hansen wrote: > And given that Boo is *not* virtually identical to Python*, > pointing it out to a self-proclaimed newbie with a question > about enums seems like nothing more than an ill-chosen > moment to do a little proselytizing. Why not just start > a thread about Boo and point it out to those of us who > have never heard of it? That wouldn't raise any hackles... > By the way, are you a moderator of this mailing list? I'm asking you because I use to read your daily posts giving guidlines on how to post, what to say or what not to say, and I wonder if this is your role in this group. Is it? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) As noted on the website that I've pointed out to you multiple times now, the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. The functionality however, is more like C#. Sadly your second post hasn't reached my news server, which is quite flaky. Fortunately (checking Google Groups), I see it added nothing of substance, as it merely points to the site again, without addressing my comments about how syntactical similarity or even identity doesn't justify the term "virtually identical", which implies that in all respects one thing is essentially identical to another. And given that Boo is *not* virtually identical to Python*, pointing it out to a self-proclaimed newbie with a question about enums seems like nothing more than an ill-chosen moment to do a little proselytizing. Why not just start a thread about Boo and point it out to those of us who have never heard of it? That wouldn't raise any hackles... -Peter * Boo appears to be well-described by its own home page, which reads roughly "Boo is a new object-oriented statically typed language for the [CLI] with a python-inspired syntax and a special focus on language and compiler extensibility". Not surprisingly, it doesn't include the phrase "virtually identical to Python" anywhere. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Peter Hansen wrote: "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) As noted on the website that I've pointed out to you multiple times now, the syntax of boo is indeed virtually identical to python. The functionality however, is more like C#. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Luis M. Gonzalez wrote: Why? If it's virtually identical, why would anyone bother even visiting that site? ;-) The difference is that it runs on the .NET frmework (and Mono). So instead of using the python standard libraries, you use the .NET ones. Regarding its syntax, it is very similar to Python. However the language is statically typed, not dynamic. Anyway, you don't have to declare types too often, because it uses a very good type inference system. For all those reasons, Boo has very good performance. In theory, it's performance is equal to C# or any other .NET compliant language, but it is still in phase of development (although quite usable for many tasks). So I guess it has many characteristics that make it a very interesting language for any python fan. And for those concerned with speed and performance, it is god send. As one uninterested so far in .NET, and not concerned primarily with speed, and concerned definitely with maturity and stability, and not in the least interested in static typing, I thank you for saving me the time investigating further. "Virtually identical" indeed. :-) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
> Why? If it's virtually identical, why would anyone bother even > visiting that site? ;-) > > But I suspect you mean that the syntax of the language is virtually > identical, while probably there are some significant differences. > Maybe in the richness of its standard library? Or the size of > its community? Or something else The difference is that it runs on the .NET frmework (and Mono). So instead of using the python standard libraries, you use the .NET ones. Regarding its syntax, it is very similar to Python. However the language is statically typed, not dynamic. Anyway, you don't have to declare types too often, because it uses a very good type inference system. For all those reasons, Boo has very good performance. In theory, it's performance is equal to C# or any other .NET compliant language, but it is still in phase of development (although quite usable for many tasks). So I guess it has many characteristics that make it a very interesting language for any python fan. And for those concerned with speed and performance, it is god send. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Peter Hansen wrote: Why? If it's virtually identical, why would anyone bother even visiting that site? ;-) But I suspect you mean that the syntax of the language is virtually identical, while probably there are some significant differences. Maybe in the richness of its standard library? Or the size of its community? Or something else That's why I wrote: > See http://boo.codehaus.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Boo who? (was Re: newbie question)
Doug Holton wrote: Boo, a programming language that is virtually identical to python, ... See http://boo.codehaus.org/ In fact, since not many seem to be aware of its existence, I encourage everyone here to check out boo as an alternative to python. Why? If it's virtually identical, why would anyone bother even visiting that site? ;-) But I suspect you mean that the syntax of the language is virtually identical, while probably there are some significant differences. Maybe in the richness of its standard library? Or the size of its community? Or something else -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
