Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... > >> Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google? > > goes a bit too far in imputing motives to the enquirer and overlooking > the fact that there are some very good reasons for *not* using Google. It's a good thing you don't actually name any of those reasons, tho:-). > we're talking male hormones here, since by and large women don't appear > to have embraced the Python community (except perhaps individually, but > that's no business of mine). Anna seems to be doing fine, though. She's currently taking a C class at college and claims "the more I know C, the more I love Python" - and I gather she's evangelizing (and the class is about 50/50 genderwise;-). > Also, many regular readers didn't grow up speaking English (I was Yep -- I'm one example of that. Didn't stop Google from hiring me, though;-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden wrote: > I don't think "The source tarball on python.org" could claim to be > telling him "exactly where it was" given that my copy of the web site > has 341 MB of stuff in it. He doesn't have to search through the whole thing, there's a link on the front page, so this 341 MB figure is meaningless. I certainly understand laziness. I don't approve of it, but I can understand it. But I really don't understand _defending_ laziness. His grasp of the English language was just fine. He could have gotten the answer to his question by using Google with less time and effort than it took him to post to Usenet, wait for a response, and then act on it. Even if he were totally lazy and selfish, he could have gotten the answer more easily by using Google for ten seconds. Language was obviously not a barrier here, since the very words he used in asking the question could have been typed into a search engine to get exactly the answer he wanted. There are plenty of questions that are complex enough, or require knowing the right terminology which might not be obvious to an interested amateur, such that a search engine won't be the most practical way to do research. This was _certainly_ not one of those cases. -- Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis No mistaking / Just reflecting what you radiate -- Anggun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Erik Max Francis wrote: > Steve Holden wrote: > > >>While a snappish "go and look it up on Google" might suffice for a >>mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last >>half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone >>who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking >>reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions. > > > I told him exactly where it was. I just also pointed out that he could > have trivially found out the answer on his own by using Google for > fifteen seconds. It would be one thing if I (and nobody else) answered > his question and just rudely pointed him to Google. But since I > actually answered his question, looks to me like someone just wanted to > stand on his soapbox today. > I don't think "The source tarball on python.org" could claim to be telling him "exactly where it was" given that my copy of the web site has 341 MB of stuff in it. Just that same, if you are saying that your behaviour didn't really merit my response then I'd probably agree. Your post was the straw that broke the camel's back rather than an egregious example of bad manners. So I'm sorry if it looked as though the soapboxing was directed primarily at you, which it wasn't. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Steve Holden wrote: > While a snappish "go and look it up on Google" might suffice for a > mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last > half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone > who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking > reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions. I told him exactly where it was. I just also pointed out that he could have trivially found out the answer on his own by using Google for fifteen seconds. It would be one thing if I (and nobody else) answered his question and just rudely pointed him to Google. But since I actually answered his question, looks to me like someone just wanted to stand on his soapbox today. -- Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis Let he who does not know what war is go to war. -- (a Spanish proverb) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
[Steve] > In short, this group is a broad church, and those readers with brain s > the size of planets should remember that they are just as much in a > minority as the readers who appear on the list for the first time this > week. The vast majority are here to learn and grow, and I think that's > the sort of behaviour we should be encouraging. +1 (and +1 QOTW). > As time goes by I find myself more and more likely, getting to the end > of a possibly sharp or vindictive response, to simply kill the post and > take what pleasure I can from not having shared that particular piece of > small-mindedness with the group. In the end our most valuable > contributions to groups like this can be the gift of being able to walk > away from a fight simply to keep the noise level down. +1 (and +1 QONW). -- Richie Hindle [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]
Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote:
> "Erik Max Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's contained
>>>in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should
>>>I look?
>>
>>The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too lazy
>>to do elementary research on Google?
>>
>>--
>>Erik Max Francis && [EMAIL PROTECTED] && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
>>San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
>> The people are to be taken in very small doses.
>> -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
> Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google!
>
>
>
As Pythonistas we can all marvel at the utility of Python, possibly
best-known for its many applications at Google. However, I've noticed an
increasing number of replies (quite possibly including some from me, so
I'm not being holier-than-thou in this respect) of the "sheesh, can't
people use Google?" type lately.
However,
>> Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google?
goes a bit too far in imputing motives to the enquirer and overlooking
the fact that there are some very good reasons for *not* using Google.
Since Google and the Python Software Foundation have a relationship
(Google are a sponsor member of the Foundation, were one of the sponsors
of PyCon DC 2005 and employ some Foundation Board members) and since I
am a Board member of the Foundation (there, full disclosure), I hesitate
to suggest that Googling can't fulfil every individual's every needs,
but the bald fact is it's true. [Thinks: if Google stock tanks today I'm
in deep doo-doo here].
Technical people like to pretend there's only technology. The fact that
this is demonstrably not true doesn't appear to condition their
behaviour very much, and on newsgroups, a bastion of testosterone from
the very early days of internetworking (due to network news' tight
interlinking with the dial-up UUCP network that used mainly local calls
to propagate news and mail), the position is at its worst. Note that
we're talking male hormones here, since by and large women don't appear
to have embraced the Python community (except perhaps individually, but
that's no business of mine).
While a snappish "go and look it up on Google" might suffice for a
mouthy apprentice who's just asked their thirteenth question in the last
half hour, it's (shall we say) a little on the brusque side for someone
who only appears on the group last February, and has a history of asking
reasonably pertinent though sometimes beginner-level questions.
In the real world there are many reasons why people interact, and
interactions on c.l.py reflect this diversity. Sometimes it's just (as
Americans say) "gathering round the water cooler": it's good to be in
touch with a number of other people who have the same technical interest
as you, and sometimes you get to say "well done" or interject your own
opinion.
Other people come here for a sense of affirmation ("I wonder if those
Python guys will treat me like a leper if I post on c.l.py?"), amusement
("I wonder what the quote of the week'll be on the python-url"),
intelligence (I wonder if the Twisted guys have produces a new version
of X recently") and even identity ("I'll argue about everything I can
possibly find the minutest hole in so people know that I have a brain
and can use it").
Also, many regular readers didn't grow up speaking English (I was
tempted to omit those last two words and leave it at that, but I won;'t
be quite so extreme today), and so they may not phrase their questions
appropriately. For all I know, there may not be that much Google content
in Norwegian.
In short, this group is a broad church, and those readers with brain s
the size of planets should remember that they are just as much in a
minority as the readers who appear on the list for the first time this
week. The vast majority are here to learn and grow, and I think that's
the sort of behaviour we should be encouraging.
Google is *very* good at delivering information. I use google.com all
the time, and I'm also a Google Earth user. However, we wouldn't be at
all happy if Google just stuck a pipe onto our computers and spewed
information at them three times as fast as it could be read. Bandwidth
on a group like this is precious (which, I recently had to be reminded,
is why it's important Not to Feed the Trolls - trolls eat bandwidth up
like nobody's business, and pretty soon whole days are taken up by
responses to their inanities).
As time goes by I find myself more and more likely, getting to the end
of a possibly sharp or vindictive response, to simply kill the post and
take what pleasure I can from not having shared that particular piece of
small-mindedness with the group. In the end our most valuable
contributions to groups like this can be the gift of being able
