Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Ray wrote: > Does the comparison between dynamic and static language carry over to > comparison between Django and Turbogear too? Is this what is meant by > "Turbogear is much more flexible than Django"? Nah, the difference is more than Django is a complete product whereas TurboGears is a collection of unrelated parts glued together. For more on this topic, see here: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8986 Adrian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: > I hope you're aware that this sounds a lot like late 90's anti-dynamic- > language propaganda... > > "I would never use Perl or Python over C++ for any performance- > "intensive Web app. In my opinion, both languages make some > poor design decisions regarding the importance of performance." > > (you all know all the counter-arguments) Does the comparison between dynamic and static language carry over to comparison between Django and Turbogear too? Is this what is meant by "Turbogear is much more flexible than Django"? Thanks, Ray > > -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Adrian Holovaty wrote: > I would never use TurboGears or Ruby on Rails over Django for any > performance-intensive Web app. In my opinion, both frameworks make some > poor design decisions regarding the importance of performance. I hope you're aware that this sounds a lot like late 90's anti-dynamic- language propaganda... "I would never use Perl or Python over C++ for any performance- "intensive Web app. In my opinion, both languages make some poor design decisions regarding the importance of performance." (you all know all the counter-arguments) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
bruno at modulix wrote:
> Possibly - but if a programmer is not able to pick on Python in a matter
> of days, then it's a bad programmer that won't be of any help whatever
> the language. So in fact, choosing Python may help you get better
> programmers !-)
You have a point there! :)
> You may also want to have a look at turbogears (roughly similar to
> Django, but probably much more flexible)
Hmm--much more flexible in what sense, Bruno?
Thanks much!
Ray
>
> My 2 cents
> --
> bruno desthuilliers
> python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
> p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Very useful input, Adrian. Thanks a lot! These are facts that I can use to convince people that Python is a legit choice for the app I'm developing. Warm regards, Ray Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Ray wrote: > > Yes, but this is more of a web application though--something that I've > > never developed in Python before, so... I'll be evaluating Django > > shortly--let me see how it compares to Tomcat. > > Performance is one of the key features of Django. For example, I'm > using Django at washingtonpost.com for the U.S. Congress Votes > Database, which has more than 4 million records and is linked-to from > the washingtonpost.com home page whenever there's a key congressional > vote. (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/) > > The server doesn't break a sweat, thanks to Django's > very-convenient-and-powerful cache system: > http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/cache/ > > Also, the developers at grono.net, a Polish social networking site with > more than half a million users, have converted various bits of their > Java code to Python/Django. They've found that Django is not only much > quicker (and more fun) to develop in, it's also *faster* than Java and > requires less hardware. E-mail me personally if you want their contact > information for direct testimonials; we'll be publishing some more > testimonials publically as we get closer to Django 1.0. > > I would never use TurboGears or Ruby on Rails over Django for any > performance-intensive Web app. In my opinion, both frameworks make some > poor design decisions regarding the importance of performance. > > Adrian > -- > Adrian Holovaty > holovaty.com | chicagocrime.org | djangoproject.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tim N. van der Leeuw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >- Do you have to interface with things like messaging-systems (a la JMS >specs), distributed transaction managers? If so, the only way to go >Python is Jython: Python for the JVM. Because AFAIK, there are no >interfaces for Python to the likes of IBM's MQSeries or for any >distributed transaction managers. What about http://www.zope.org/Members/tim_one/spread/ -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Ray wrote: > Yes, but this is more of a web application though--something that I've > never developed in Python before, so... I'll be evaluating Django > shortly--let me see how it compares to Tomcat. Performance is one of the key features of Django. For example, I'm using Django at washingtonpost.com for the U.S. Congress Votes Database, which has more than 4 million records and is linked-to from the washingtonpost.com home page whenever there's a key congressional vote. (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/) The server doesn't break a sweat, thanks to Django's very-convenient-and-powerful cache system: http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/cache/ Also, the developers at grono.net, a Polish social networking site with more than half a million users, have converted various bits of their Java code to Python/Django. They've found that Django is not only much quicker (and more fun) to develop in, it's also *faster* than Java and requires less hardware. E-mail me personally if you want their contact information for direct testimonials; we'll be publishing some more testimonials publically as we get closer to Django 1.0. I would never use TurboGears or Ruby on Rails over Django for any performance-intensive Web app. In my opinion, both frameworks make some poor design decisions regarding the importance of performance. Adrian -- Adrian Holovaty holovaty.com | chicagocrime.org | djangoproject.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Ray wrote:
(snip)
> But then on the other hand, there is a manpower problem--it's damn easy
> to find a Java programmer (although the quality that you get is a
> different matter). Python programmers are more difficult.
Possibly - but if a programmer is not able to pick on Python in a matter
of days, then it's a bad programmer that won't be of any help whatever
the language. So in fact, choosing Python may help you get better
programmers !-)
>
>>If I were you I'd concentrate on creating a website that actually
>>works. Your chances of creating a website that needs to scale to be
>>'heavyweight' are very slim. If you manage to get to that point then
>>you can start worrying about how to cope with all the money that's
>>rolling in ;)
>
>
> You know what, this is a very good point :))
>
>
>>AFAIAA Python scales better than Java as any performance critical
>>parts can be easily rewritten in C. To spend too much time worrying
>>over it is premature optimisation though.
>
>
> Yes, but this is more of a web application though--something that I've
> never developed in Python before, so... I'll be evaluating Django
> shortly--let me see how it compares to Tomcat.
You may also want to have a look at turbogears (roughly similar to
Django, but probably much more flexible)
My 2 cents
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: > Hi Ray, Hi Tim! > I'm in a bit of the same boat as you only I don't get to choose my > implementation language ;-) > > Some of the concerns should be: > - Do you have to interface with things like messaging-systems (a la JMS > specs), distributed transaction managers? If so, the only way to go > Python is Jython: Python for the JVM. Because AFAIK, there are no > interfaces for Python to the likes of IBM's MQSeries or for any > distributed transaction managers. Hmmm, at this level I think not. But yes, this is a good point, I'll keep this in mind. If it's gonna be Jython, I think I might as well go with J2EE--since it is yet another layer on top of a platform. > - Is your application purely a web-based application? Or is there a > large amount of application logic which is not tied to the web in any > way? Yes, it is purely a web-based application... well, it has a "administration" page, that the back office stuff, but that can be web-based as well. > - Python has a number of frameworks for developing server applications, > like Twisted, Zope and Django. > I don't know Twisted; I know a little bit about Zope. Zope has several > enterprise-level features and provides scalability/clustering. > However, I've found the learning-curve for Zope to be a bit steep so > far; too steep to master it in what little bits of spare time I have. > (If I would have more time I'd be able to get the hang of it but I > don't have enough time) Ah, yes... all respect to Zope, but I hope this is something that can be done in Django. I suspect the implementation time will be very, very short... as typical of the nature of these projects, and with the seeming intricacies of Zope, the impression of which I get from reading about it, I don't think we have the spare time/effort... > I've started to toy a bit with Django and it seems to get rather easy > to get started with developing a Web application using Django; however > I also get the feeling that installation is a bit more involved than > with Zope and that it will be not as easy to package up an application > and transport it to another machine, as it is with Zope. Thanks, this is a useful info. I'm about to evaluate Django deeper myself, how have you found it? Does it cover the whole "web" part of the J2EE stack, at least? (i.e.: it can replace Tomcat)? How has your experience been when you need to go further? (i.e.: beyond mapping data in DB to webpages)? > So for development of Web-applications, I would certainly consider > either Zope or Django. > Both offer ways to store your data in a transactional database; Django > has some object-relation mapper tools but I'm not sure how exactly Zope > stores data in a SQL database (it comes with it's own powerful > object-database, the ZODB but I don't know if OR mapping tools exist > for Zope). Hmm, I've never got the time to look at Zope proper, but my understanding is that Django is analogous to Tomcat, and Zope is analogous to a full blown appserver a la WebLogic, right? > So what are your requirements for 'J2EE' applications? And which Python > framework would best fit the bill? Hmmm, it's purely web-based, and I don't foresee message queueing and stuff at this point. I'll take a better look at Django. Thanks! Ray > > > cheers, > > --Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Hi Ed, Ed Singleton wrote: > Personally I have found that if you need to sell a technology on, > saying it's written in Java is an advantage generally (because "it's a > standard"). If it's written in Python you may get asked why it has > been written in a "scripting language" if they've heard of it at all. Yes, I agree. Especially with those cover-my-ass types in big institutions who'd only go for things that have the word "Enterprise" on it :) > exactly the same tools as them, so you have to choose better tools. > Almost by definition, the tools that the majority are using are NOT > the best tools for the job. If I were you I'd definitely choose > Python, if only because everyone else is not using it yet. Yes, that was what I was thinking. Fast development cycle and ability to embrace change is crucial here. I do feel the way Java is getting in the way of my coding even after using Python for small personal projects. But then on the other hand, there is a manpower problem--it's damn easy to find a Java programmer (although the quality that you get is a different matter). Python programmers are more difficult. > If I were you I'd concentrate on creating a website that actually > works. Your chances of creating a website that needs to scale to be > 'heavyweight' are very slim. If you manage to get to that point then > you can start worrying about how to cope with all the money that's > rolling in ;) You know what, this is a very good point :)) > AFAIAA Python scales better than Java as any performance critical > parts can be easily rewritten in C. To spend too much time worrying > over it is premature optimisation though. Yes, but this is more of a web application though--something that I've never developed in Python before, so... I'll be evaluating Django shortly--let me see how it compares to Tomcat. > > (I'd love to develop in Python and get paid for it finally, but at the > > same time I do want to give the money guy the best value for his > > money...) > > The only thing you really need to be happy is to find something you > enjoy doing and to do it. Money is definitely secondary to that. If > you have a chance to be paid for working in Python, then go for it; > even if you fail, you will have spent your days in a happy state. Yeah, I have the chance to do that if I manage to get this through, but at the same time I do want to give the guy who funds us the best value possible for his money. (If--If--it means I have to use J2EE, I will do it.) Thanks, Ray > > Ed -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
On 11 Jan 2006 17:54:05 -0800, Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > I've got the chance to determine the technology to use in creating a > product similar to this: > > http://www.atomicisland.com/ > > Now the thing is that I need to sell this to the guy with the money. > I've developed for years with C++ and Java, last 7 years J2EE, and I'm > kinda sick of the "bloated" feeling that the whole J2EE/appserver > business carries into the picture. Personally I have found that if you need to sell a technology on, saying it's written in Java is an advantage generally (because "it's a standard"). If it's written in Python you may get asked why it has been written in a "scripting language" if they've heard of it at all. > Python is the language that I use at home, so I've been thinking of > using this to implement the product mentioned above. I've personally > experienced the pleasure of programming in it, and as such, I hope that > this will translate to advantage over our competitors (a la Paul > Graham's argument for Lisp). >From my brief look at that url you gave, it looks like you are trying to enter a very crowded market place. You will have to perform a lot better than your competitors in order to succeed (they have a head start on you). There's no way on earth you can do that by using exactly the same tools as them, so you have to choose better tools. Almost by definition, the tools that the majority are using are NOT the best tools for the job. If I were you I'd definitely choose Python, if only because everyone else is not using it yet. > That said, my experience with Python is limited to toy programs, that I > write myself for my own use. As such, I have several concerns: > > 1. How scalable is Python? In J2EE, when the load gets really big, we > can resort to clustering. Same goes about availability. Is there > anything that will help here in Python? (Mind, my Python experience is > usually with scripts and console). > > 2. If there is, what is the transition like from being lightweight to > heavyweight? E.g.: in J2EE we can use Tomcat at first as a lightweight > web container, and scale as necessary using a more powerful appserver. > Is this possible in Python? If I were you I'd concentrate on creating a website that actually works. Your chances of creating a website that needs to scale to be 'heavyweight' are very slim. If you manage to get to that point then you can start worrying about how to cope with all the money that's rolling in ;) AFAIAA Python scales better than Java as any performance critical parts can be easily rewritten in C. To spend too much time worrying over it is premature optimisation though. > 3. Have any of you done this before? As in you come from a heavy J2EE > background, and then switch to doing something equally serious in > Python? In your experience, in the end, did you find Python suitable at > all for this domain or you think you should have stuck to J2EE? What > are the pros and cons you discovered? I don't have much experience of Java tbh, but I've never heard of any pro's to using it, except for the fact that it's more acceptable to big business and it's easier to get mediocre programmers for it. > (I'd love to develop in Python and get paid for it finally, but at the > same time I do want to give the money guy the best value for his > money...) The only thing you really need to be happy is to find something you enjoy doing and to do it. Money is definitely secondary to that. If you have a chance to be paid for working in Python, then go for it; even if you fail, you will have spent your days in a happy state. Ed -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Hi Ray, I'm in a bit of the same boat as you only I don't get to choose my implementation language ;-) Some of the concerns should be: - Do you have to interface with things like messaging-systems (a la JMS specs), distributed transaction managers? If so, the only way to go Python is Jython: Python for the JVM. Because AFAIK, there are no interfaces for Python to the likes of IBM's MQSeries or for any distributed transaction managers. - Is your application purely a web-based application? Or is there a large amount of application logic which is not tied to the web in any way? - Python has a number of frameworks for developing server applications, like Twisted, Zope and Django. I don't know Twisted; I know a little bit about Zope. Zope has several enterprise-level features and provides scalability/clustering. However, I've found the learning-curve for Zope to be a bit steep so far; too steep to master it in what little bits of spare time I have. (If I would have more time I'd be able to get the hang of it but I don't have enough time) I've started to toy a bit with Django and it seems to get rather easy to get started with developing a Web application using Django; however I also get the feeling that installation is a bit more involved than with Zope and that it will be not as easy to package up an application and transport it to another machine, as it is with Zope. So for development of Web-applications, I would certainly consider either Zope or Django. Both offer ways to store your data in a transactional database; Django has some object-relation mapper tools but I'm not sure how exactly Zope stores data in a SQL database (it comes with it's own powerful object-database, the ZODB but I don't know if OR mapping tools exist for Zope). However you mentioned 'development in J2EE' and J2EE applications are by no means restricted to Web interfaces. J2EE applications can have rich GUI clients, or can be without any UI at all and exist just as message-driven beans triggered by messages coming in via JMS interfaces. I wouldn't know what Python frameworks exist that would combine web-based applications with tradional GUI client/server applications and I have no idea how to listen to a queue using Python... So what are your requirements for 'J2EE' applications? And which Python framework would best fit the bill? cheers, --Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Help me in this please--is Python the answer?
Hello, I've got the chance to determine the technology to use in creating a product similar to this: http://www.atomicisland.com/ Now the thing is that I need to sell this to the guy with the money. I've developed for years with C++ and Java, last 7 years J2EE, and I'm kinda sick of the "bloated" feeling that the whole J2EE/appserver business carries into the picture. Python is the language that I use at home, so I've been thinking of using this to implement the product mentioned above. I've personally experienced the pleasure of programming in it, and as such, I hope that this will translate to advantage over our competitors (a la Paul Graham's argument for Lisp). That said, my experience with Python is limited to toy programs, that I write myself for my own use. As such, I have several concerns: 1. How scalable is Python? In J2EE, when the load gets really big, we can resort to clustering. Same goes about availability. Is there anything that will help here in Python? (Mind, my Python experience is usually with scripts and console). 2. If there is, what is the transition like from being lightweight to heavyweight? E.g.: in J2EE we can use Tomcat at first as a lightweight web container, and scale as necessary using a more powerful appserver. Is this possible in Python? 3. Have any of you done this before? As in you come from a heavy J2EE background, and then switch to doing something equally serious in Python? In your experience, in the end, did you find Python suitable at all for this domain or you think you should have stuck to J2EE? What are the pros and cons you discovered? (I'd love to develop in Python and get paid for it finally, but at the same time I do want to give the money guy the best value for his money...) Thanks much, Ray -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
