Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Leif B. Kristensen wrote: I've got a thirteen-year old daughter to whom I have recently taught the HTML basics, but she doesn't readily take to actual programming. If you've got any idea what I should push to her to get her fascinated about _real_ programming, I'd be obliged. If she's interested in creating web sites, maybe you could introduce her to some simple CGI programming? -- Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Duncan Booth wrote: Joal Heagney wrote: Nice. I still have to download a version of pygame to try this out, but the fact that you can't hide the turtle in python.turtle was bugging me out with my version. (A fair bit of copy/paste in gimp, I can tell you!) What was wrong with hiding the turtle? 'turtle.tracer(False)' usually does it nicely and speeds things up a lot. Ahhah! Thanks for that. I also noticed that I got severe speed hits if the Xwindows mouse was over the turtle tk window while the program was running. BTW. How do I move the turtle to a new location without drawing anything? Joal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Joal Heagney wrote: Joal Heagney wrote: Duncan Booth wrote: Joal Heagney wrote: Nice. I still have to download a version of pygame to try this out, but the fact that you can't hide the turtle in python.turtle was bugging me out with my version. (A fair bit of copy/paste in gimp, I can tell you!) What was wrong with hiding the turtle? 'turtle.tracer(False)' usually does it nicely and speeds things up a lot. Ahhah! Thanks for that. I also noticed that I got severe speed hits if the Xwindows mouse was over the turtle tk window while the program was running. BTW. How do I move the turtle to a new location without drawing anything? Joal Whoop. That WAS a speedup!!! :) Joal Now, is there a way to embed the turtle window into a scrollable canvas, preferably with arbitrary runtime size? Joal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Joal Heagney wrote: Duncan Booth wrote: Joal Heagney wrote: Nice. I still have to download a version of pygame to try this out, but the fact that you can't hide the turtle in python.turtle was bugging me out with my version. (A fair bit of copy/paste in gimp, I can tell you!) What was wrong with hiding the turtle? 'turtle.tracer(False)' usually does it nicely and speeds things up a lot. Ahhah! Thanks for that. I also noticed that I got severe speed hits if the Xwindows mouse was over the turtle tk window while the program was running. BTW. How do I move the turtle to a new location without drawing anything? Joal Whoop. That WAS a speedup!!! :) Joal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Jot wrote: If she's really gifted i hope she dumps that obsolete monolithic kernel as soon as she realizes that such beautiful language as python shouldn't be used on top of ugly, badly designed software. Maybe she'll go on to write that oft-proposed pure Python operating system, and give us a computing environment that's truly elegant from the ground up! :-) -- Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Joal Heagney wrote: > Nice. I still have to download a version of pygame to try this out, but > the fact that you can't hide the turtle in python.turtle was bugging me > out with my version. (A fair bit of copy/paste in gimp, I can tell you!) What was wrong with hiding the turtle? 'turtle.tracer(False)' usually does it nicely and speeds things up a lot. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Lee Harr wrote: On 2005-03-27, Joal Heagney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Couldn't help myself. I had to write the Dragon Fractal in python.turtle :) That's nice. I ported it to use the pygsear Turtle class. http://www.nongnu.org/pygsear/ Nice. I still have to download a version of pygame to try this out, but the fact that you can't hide the turtle in python.turtle was bugging me out with my version. (A fair bit of copy/paste in gimp, I can tell you!) Joal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 2005-03-27, Joal Heagney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Couldn't help myself. I had to write the Dragon Fractal in python.turtle >:) > That's nice. I ported it to use the pygsear Turtle class. http://www.nongnu.org/pygsear/ --- Dragon.py 2005-03-27 08:48:13.0 -0500 +++ pDragon.py 2005-03-27 16:33:48.0 -0500 @@ -1,9 +1,14 @@ """Generates the L-System for the Dragon Fractal, using -the turtle module.""" +the pygsear.Drawable.Turtle class.""" -import re, turtle +import re +#import turtle +from pygsear.Drawable import Turtle from math import sin, pi +turtle = Turtle() +#turtle.visible = False + """The default L-System rules for the dragon fractal are: Angle 45 degrees Starting Axiom FX @@ -65,7 +70,7 @@ red = 1.0 green = 0.0 blue = 1.0 - fract -return red, green, blue +return red*255, green*255, blue*255 # The default is that the turtle will only move one pixel def parser(parsestring, distance=1, angle=45): @@ -73,13 +78,14 @@ newstring = re.sub("X", "", parsestring) newstring = re.sub("Y", "", newstring) # Clear the screen -turtle.clear() +#turtle.clear() strlen = len(newstring) colorinc = 1.0 / float(strlen) -turtle.color(colorator(0)) +turtle.set_color(colorator(0)) for i in range(strlen): value = newstring[i] -turtle.color(colorator(float(i) * colorinc)) +color = colorator(float(i) * colorinc) +turtle.set_color(color) if value == "+": turtle.right(angle) elif value == "-": @@ -87,7 +93,7 @@ elif value == "F": turtle.forward(distance) # Hide the cursor -turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) +turtle.uclear() def run(count=15, distance=1, angle=45, width=1): string = "FX" @@ -96,14 +102,15 @@ count -= 1 # "Hide" the cursor while we are moving it. ##print string -turtle.width(width) -turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) +turtle.set_width(width) +#turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) # Move the cursor so the turtle won't go off the screen. # You might want to resize the turtle screen while the program is doing this -turtle.setx(100) -turtle.sety(-200) +#turtle.setx(100) +#turtle.sety(-200) parser(string, distance=distance, angle=angle) if __name__ == "__main__": run(15) +raw_input() -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said : >>OT/trivia : if it was between mid-eighties and early nineties, the >>company could be "Goupil" (ancien french for "Fox"). > > Exactly! That was it... it was October or November 1981, though (early > eighties). Oh... probably a "G2" model then, with a 68000 CPU from pre-IBM-PC days.. (http://www.silicium.org/france/goupil/goupil2.htm) -- YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 24 Mar 2005 13:33:58 GMT, rumours say that Fred Pacquier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> might have written: >Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said : > >> At the age of nine at school, two guys from a French computer-making >> company named as "Loup" (in french) or "Lupo" (in Italian), can't >> remember which --if either is correct--, came and gave us a demo of one >> of their models. >OT/trivia : if it was between mid-eighties and early nineties, the company >could be "Goupil" (ancien french for "Fox"). Exactly! That was it... it was October or November 1981, though (early eighties). -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 2005-03-27, Joal Heagney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Couldn't help myself. I had to write the Dragon Fractal in python.turtle >:) > That's nice. I ported it to use the pygsear Turtle class. http://www.nongnu.org/pygsear/ --- Dragon.py 2005-03-27 08:48:13.0 -0500 +++ pDragon.py 2005-03-27 16:33:48.0 -0500 @@ -1,9 +1,14 @@ """Generates the L-System for the Dragon Fractal, using -the turtle module.""" +the pygsear.Drawable.Turtle class.""" -import re, turtle +import re +#import turtle +from pygsear.Drawable import Turtle from math import sin, pi +turtle = Turtle() +#turtle.visible = False + """The default L-System rules for the dragon fractal are: Angle 45 degrees Starting Axiom FX @@ -65,7 +70,7 @@ red = 1.0 green = 0.0 blue = 1.0 - fract -return red, green, blue +return red*255, green*255, blue*255 # The default is that the turtle will only move one pixel def parser(parsestring, distance=1, angle=45): @@ -73,13 +78,14 @@ newstring = re.sub("X", "", parsestring) newstring = re.sub("Y", "", newstring) # Clear the screen -turtle.clear() +#turtle.clear() strlen = len(newstring) colorinc = 1.0 / float(strlen) -turtle.color(colorator(0)) +turtle.set_color(colorator(0)) for i in range(strlen): value = newstring[i] -turtle.color(colorator(float(i) * colorinc)) +color = colorator(float(i) * colorinc) +turtle.set_color(color) if value == "+": turtle.right(angle) elif value == "-": @@ -87,7 +93,7 @@ elif value == "F": turtle.forward(distance) # Hide the cursor -turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) +turtle.uclear() def run(count=15, distance=1, angle=45, width=1): string = "FX" @@ -96,14 +102,15 @@ count -= 1 # "Hide" the cursor while we are moving it. ##print string -turtle.width(width) -turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) +turtle.set_width(width) +#turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) # Move the cursor so the turtle won't go off the screen. # You might want to resize the turtle screen while the program is doing this -turtle.setx(100) -turtle.sety(-200) +#turtle.setx(100) +#turtle.sety(-200) parser(string, distance=distance, angle=angle) if __name__ == "__main__": run(15) +raw_input() -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:50:36 -0700, Jules Dubois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Wednesday 23 March 2005 22:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >(<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote: > >> Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain >> *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and >> entertaining for kids aged 10-14 > >It's not what you asked for, but you should consider Squeak Smalltalk and >eToys. The GUIs that we use today are largely the work of Alan Kays's >group at Xerox in the 1970s. Dr. Kay has spent the last 35 years trying to >make computers educational and fun for children. If you're interested, see > > http://www.squeak.org/ (The Squeak Smalltalk site) > http://www.squeakland.org/ (The eToys site) > >Squeak runs on Linux, MacOS, and even Windows, and it's free. I again take the opportunity to raise a hand in protest. Going to these sites I learn that Kay is the "Father of the Personal Computer" working from "a deep understanding of how children learn". He also may be someone who married himself to a bad idea 30 years ago, in which he has invested too much, thereby crippling his ability to confront scientific evidnce in an evenhanded manner. He is also someone ex of Disney, now of HP, who lectures us on the destructive infleunce of the profit motive on the development of computer science and its capacity to enhance our world. I understand better how Xah Lee got to be Xah Lee when confronted with the cult of Kay. Art -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain >*basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and >entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right >now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving >small problems? Take a look at http://www.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers where there are a couple of bits oriented toward younger people and lots of bits oriented toward adults. I'm sure something there will strike your daughter's fancy. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death." --GvR -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michele Simionato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >But here I am discussing other kind of intellectual capabilities, >in particular the ability to learn a programming language. > >I think the problem most kids face is *not* lack of intellectual >capability, but lack of concentration. Most kids cannot keep >their concentration focused on a single topic for a long period >of time, so they start one thing and never finish it, since >they have a thousand other little things to do in the mean time. That's part of it. Another issue is that general problem-solving skills do increase with experience. I also think that programming ability tracks reading/writing ability to at least some extent, and while there are child prodigies with language, they seem to be rarer than smaller skillsets. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death." --GvR -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Simon Brunning wrote: On 23 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving small problems? I don't know about kid's tutorials, but I can recommend that you try the turtle module. It's great for kids. It gives really good immediate feedback, You can start out using it interactively: Couldn't help myself. I had to write the Dragon Fractal in python.turtle :) """Generates the L-System for the Dragon Fractal, using the turtle module.""" import re, turtle from math import sin, pi """The default L-System rules for the dragon fractal are: Angle 45 degrees Starting Axiom FX F = Y = +FX--FY+ X = -FX++FY- I've optimised them a little bit the following ways: Take out all occurances of F. Replace Y with +FN--FY+ Replace X with -FX++FY- Replace N with X Take out all occurances of -+ Take out all occurances of +- """ def rules(instring): """I originally had this as a series of nested re.sub expressions. Once the rule list got long though, I split it up to make it more "pythonic". """ newstring, subs = re.subn("F", "", instring) # Use N as a placeholder for X newstring, subs = re.subn("Y", "+FN--FY+", newstring) # So that we don't get double substitution. newstring, subs = re.subn("X", "-FX++FY-", newstring) # Now we replace the placeholder with X newstring, subs = re.subn("N", "X", newstring) # And optimise the string in regard to left/right turns. subs = 1 while subs: newstring, first = re.subn("-\+", "", newstring) newstring, second = re.subn("\+-", "", newstring) subs = first + second return newstring def colorator(value): # Makes the colour of the cursor cycle. range, fract = divmod(value*6, 1) if range == 0: red = 1.0 green = fract blue = 0.0 elif range == 1: red = 1.0 - fract green = 1.0 blue = 0.0 elif range == 2: red = 0.0 green = 1.0 blue = fract elif range == 3: red = 0.0 green = 1.0 - fract blue = 1.0 elif range == 4: red = fract green = 0.0 blue = 1.0 elif range >= 5: red = 1.0 green = 0.0 blue = 1.0 - fract return red, green, blue # The default is that the turtle will only move one pixel def parser(parsestring, distance=1, angle=45): # First we clean up the parsestring newstring = re.sub("X", "", parsestring) newstring = re.sub("Y", "", newstring) # Clear the screen turtle.clear() strlen = len(newstring) colorinc = 1.0 / float(strlen) turtle.color(colorator(0)) for i in range(strlen): value = newstring[i] turtle.color(colorator(float(i) * colorinc)) if value == "+": turtle.right(angle) elif value == "-": turtle.left(angle) elif value == "F": turtle.forward(distance) # Hide the cursor turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) def run(count=15, distance=1, angle=45, width=1): string = "FX" while count > 0: string = rules(string) count -= 1 # "Hide" the cursor while we are moving it. ##print string turtle.width(width) turtle.color(1.0,1.0,1.0) # Move the cursor so the turtle won't go off the screen. # You might want to resize the turtle screen while the program is doing this turtle.setx(100) turtle.sety(-200) parser(string, distance=distance, angle=angle) if __name__ == "__main__": run(15) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Simon Brunning wrote: On 23 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving small problems? I don't know about kid's tutorials, but I can recommend that you try the turtle module. It's great for kids. It gives really good immediate feedback, You can start out using it interactively: import turtle turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) Aaaghhh. I've been using python on and off for six years now, and I didn't even know that it had a turtle module. :) Turtle was the first experience I had with programming! Joal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Simon Brunning wrote: > I don't know about kid's tutorials, but I can recommend that you try > the turtle module. It's great for kids. It gives really good immediate > feedback, You can start out using it interactively: FWIW there is a German Book called called "Python für Kids" by Gregor Lingl which is mostly based on the turtle module. My little brother (13 then) actually learned Python with it. Carl Friedrich Bolz -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Leif B. Kristensen wrote: R.Meijer wrote: Jot nad.com> writes: If she's really gifted i hope she dumps that obsolete monolithic kernel as soon as she realizes that such beautiful language as python shouldn't be used on top of ugly, badly designed software. Did somebody say off-topic? I'd say it's a "Troll -1". Anyway, that'd be my moderator response over at Slashdot. As had been said so many times; GNU/Hurd is still a pipe-dream. Those who think that the Linux kernel is based on faulty concepts should really get their act together and produce their own microkernel. Personally, I don't care about the kernel architecture as long as I've got a system that works right here, now. Anyway, I myself am 14 years old and I can make simple python scripts already by learning it off the official tutorial that comes with it. My tip: let her take her time with a normal adult tutorial, and give her small assignments every few chapters just so she gets it. If I may ask, do you think that the "How to think like a Computer Scientist" is a good starter? I'm 52 years old and learned my basics with Swan's "Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5" way back when, but I'm sincerely wondering what your generation think are hi-class tutorials. I've got a thirteen-year old daughter to whom I have recently taught the HTML basics, but she doesn't readily take to actual programming. If you've got any idea what I should push to her to get her fascinated about _real_ programming, I'd be obliged. Or maybe her head isn't screwed together that way, what do I know. I found "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" a very good book. It was very well written and didn't push too many things onto you at once. -- -- Lucas Raab lvraab located at earthlink.net dotpyFE located at gmail.com AIM:Phoenix11890 MSN:dotpyfe "@" gmail.com IRC:lvraab ICQ:324767918 Yahoo: Phoenix11890 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
You might like the book "Mindstorms", by Seymour Papert. The intro is here: http://www.papert.org/articles/GearsOfMyChildhood.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 22:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote: > Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain > *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and > entertaining for kids aged 10-14 It's not what you asked for, but you should consider Squeak Smalltalk and eToys. The GUIs that we use today are largely the work of Alan Kays's group at Xerox in the 1970s. Dr. Kay has spent the last 35 years trying to make computers educational and fun for children. If you're interested, see http://www.squeak.org/ (The Squeak Smalltalk site) http://www.squeakland.org/ (The eToys site) Squeak runs on Linux, MacOS, and even Windows, and it's free. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
"Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I've got a thirteen-year old daughter to whom I have recently taught the > HTML basics, but she doesn't readily take to actual programming. If > you've got any idea what I should push to her to get her fascinated > about _real_ programming, I'd be obliged. Or maybe her head isn't > screwed together that way, what do I know. I wouldn't push. She can figure out for herself what fascinates her. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
> "Bengt" == Bengt Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Bengt> Or they may identify with their gift and become Bengt> insufferable narcissistic egotists as a refuge from human Bengt> isolation and emotional starvation. Bengt> Or they may become wonderful human beings after all, happy Bengt> stewards of what becomes a gift to humanity, not just an Bengt> advantage to exploit meanly. Or they may determine to be exactly what they feel like being at the moment, independent of what their parents or the surrounding world feel they should be. (urgh, way too serious to be pythonic, but it's 5:14am here) -- Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
R.Meijer wrote: > Jot nad.com> writes: > >> If she's really gifted i hope she dumps that obsolete monolithic >> kernel as soon as she realizes that such beautiful language as python >> shouldn't be used on top of ugly, badly designed software. > > Did somebody say off-topic? I'd say it's a "Troll -1". Anyway, that'd be my moderator response over at Slashdot. As had been said so many times; GNU/Hurd is still a pipe-dream. Those who think that the Linux kernel is based on faulty concepts should really get their act together and produce their own microkernel. Personally, I don't care about the kernel architecture as long as I've got a system that works right here, now. > Anyway, I myself am 14 years old and I can make simple python scripts > already by learning it off the official tutorial that comes with it. > My tip: let her take her time with a normal adult tutorial, and give > her small assignments every few chapters just so she gets it. If I may ask, do you think that the "How to think like a Computer Scientist" is a good starter? I'm 52 years old and learned my basics with Swan's "Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5" way back when, but I'm sincerely wondering what your generation think are hi-class tutorials. I've got a thirteen-year old daughter to whom I have recently taught the HTML basics, but she doesn't readily take to actual programming. If you've got any idea what I should push to her to get her fascinated about _real_ programming, I'd be obliged. Or maybe her head isn't screwed together that way, what do I know. -- Leif Biberg Kristensen http://solumslekt.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 24 Mar 2005 07:21:33 -0800, "El Pitonero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Lucas Raab wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> > I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter... >> > Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python >> >> Let her mess around with it on her own. I'm 15 and have been using >> Python for 2-3 years and had nothing to really go on. Give her Dive >Into >> Python or How to Think Like a Computer Scientist and let her ask >> questions if she needs help. > >In the chess world, people have long learnt to take young prodigies >seriously. Most of the grandmasters start to play chess at age 4 or >earlier. Bobby Fisher became the US chess champion at age 14, and a >grandmaster at 15. And that's considered old by modern standard: Sergei >Karjakin became grandmaster at age 12. > >http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=310 >http://members.lycos.co.uk/csarchive/gilbert.htm > >Sure, programming's skill set is a bit broader than chess playing or >ice-skating, but young hackers have plenty of contacts and resources >through internet, and many of them live (will be living) in Brazil, >Russia, India and China (the so-called BRIC countries.) So, a thorny >question for matured programmers is: what's your value in face of this >competition? :) > I guess that depends on how you measure value of human beings and competition ;-) What is best to teach children about that? If you imply that any child's "value" is measured only by their competitive performance rank in some arena, or that their OWN value as a human being is insignificant compared to the value of their prodigious talent, that may be an effective motivational framework for some of them, but I'm not sure it's not ultimately cruel to celebrate the gift if ignoring whose burden or blessing it actually is. Emotionally, they may grow to see themselves as ugly, with their own gift being a stunningly beautiful sister who gets all the attention. Or they may identify with their gift and become insufferable narcissistic egotists as a refuge from human isolation and emotional starvation. Or they may become wonderful human beings after all, happy stewards of what becomes a gift to humanity, not just an advantage to exploit meanly. Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Jot nad.com> writes: > > tnozh yahoo.com wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I > > have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 > > If she's really gifted i hope she dumps that obsolete monolithic kernel > as soon as she realizes that such beautiful language as python shouldn't > be used on top of ugly, badly designed software. Did somebody say off-topic? Anyway, I myself am 14 years old and I can make simple python scripts already by learning it off the official tutorial that comes with it. My tip: let her take her time with a normal adult tutorial, and give her small assignments every few chapters just so she gets it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 If she's really gifted i hope she dumps that obsolete monolithic kernel as soon as she realizes that such beautiful language as python shouldn't be used on top of ugly, badly designed software. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Simon Brunning wrote: On 23 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving small problems? I don't know about kid's tutorials, but I can recommend that you try the turtle module. It's great for kids. It gives really good immediate feedback, You can start out using it interactively: Great suggestion, Simon, thanks Michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote: For example, one could issue the following *single* instruction: MOVE.L ($18000), ($18004) But the cost of that design is that the machine state becomes more complicated -- the instruction has to have two distinct memory ops. Usually this means there is a "secret register" for the moving data, and a "first part done" part of executing the opcode. Modern RISC-structured machines have at most one memory operation, so the instruction is simply completed or not, and can safely be re-executed if it is not complete. --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Lucas Raab wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter... > > Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python > > Let her mess around with it on her own. I'm 15 and have been using > Python for 2-3 years and had nothing to really go on. Give her Dive Into > Python or How to Think Like a Computer Scientist and let her ask > questions if she needs help. In the chess world, people have long learnt to take young prodigies seriously. Most of the grandmasters start to play chess at age 4 or earlier. Bobby Fisher became the US chess champion at age 14, and a grandmaster at 15. And that's considered old by modern standard: Sergei Karjakin became grandmaster at age 12. http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=310 http://members.lycos.co.uk/csarchive/gilbert.htm Sure, programming's skill set is a bit broader than chess playing or ice-skating, but young hackers have plenty of contacts and resources through internet, and many of them live (will be living) in Brazil, Russia, India and China (the so-called BRIC countries.) So, a thorny question for matured programmers is: what's your value in face of this competition? :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 23 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain > *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and > entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right > now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving > small problems? I don't know about kid's tutorials, but I can recommend that you try the turtle module. It's great for kids. It gives really good immediate feedback, You can start out using it interactively: >>> import turtle >>> turtle.forward(100) >>> turtle.left(90) >>> turtle.forward(100) >>> turtle.left(90) >>> turtle.forward(100) >>> turtle.left(90) >>> turtle.forward(100) >>> turtle.left(90) Then you can put this into a script, and run that. Then you might introduce loops: import turtle for i in range(4): turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) Then build some simple functions, like 'square': def square(): for i in range(4): turtle.forward(100) turtle.left(90) square() Then add arguments to your functions: def square(size): for i in range(4): turtle.forward(size) turtle.left(90) square(100) square(50) And so on. At each stage, you can see what's happening. -- Cheers, Simon B, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
i think that if she starts out with HTML or something it would be easier. I feel it is easier to learn computers when you are younger cos I am 14 now and i started at 12 and the journey has been quite easy. If she can handle a proper language like python then you might as well go ahead. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said : > At the age of nine at school, two guys from a French computer-making > company named as "Loup" (in french) or "Lupo" (in Italian), can't > remember which --if either is correct--, came and gave us a demo of one > of their models. OT/trivia : if it was between mid-eighties and early nineties, the company could be "Goupil" (ancien french for "Fox"). -- YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
> Well i don't know of any tutorials but i thought of a cool little > "assignment" that might interest someone of that age assuming english > is her first language. Good idea. 1) Have u noticed that whn yu raed that srcamled text luodly, it sounds like spoken by a deaf person. (because severe loss of hearing makes it hard to learn correct pronunciation). 2) Is this the same fennomena like in the (ancient Hebrew language?) that in written form uses consonant letters only. The reader then fills in the missing vowels (aeioyäö). Like: kck th bll nt wall nd ctch t bck. hmm, maybe not! 3) Anyway, gnna love that srcmbled format simply because rerrors do not appear, show up ;-). (having English as a foreign language) // moma http://www.futuredesktop.org/AsteriskPBX.html <- http://www.futuredesktop.org/hpc_linux.html Why run one PC obi when you can hvae a cluster ? MyHaz wrote: Its a neat little trick with english and the way that we proccess letter combinations (or should i say permuations). But a program that turned proper english into this, might be neat. """ Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. """ the algo whold be something like openfile for word in file tmp=word[0] tmp+=permut(tmp[1:-2]) tmp+=word[-1] print word She could enjoy sending letters like this, neat secrete codes for a nine year old ;) Linky http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/personal/matt.davis/Cmabrigde/ G'Luck - Haz P.S. I just had my friend read it and his native tongue is chinese, so might work for other languages too. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
My kids like http://www.alice.org (although they run it under Windows). Jim Hefferon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Hi, On Thu, 23 Mar 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 on an equally old Pentium Pro box. FWIW. Given a reasonable amount of RAM (256MB should suffice), newer Mandrakelinux versions (the latest being 10.1 with 10.2 almost out) will run nicely on that Pentium Pro. The advantage would be a much more modern user interface, security updates (important if it's connected to the internet) and of course, a recent Python package out of the box. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwenstudent of Artifical Intelligence email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mobile phone: +31-6-44360778 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 24 Mar 2005 14:50:39 +0200, rumours say that Ville Vainio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> might have written: >> "Christos" == TZOTZIOY writes: > >Christos> (first hw upgrade I ever did!), and one year and a half >Christos> later, I managed to get the Sinclair QL, with better >Christos> BASIC, multitasking capabilities, and something more >Christos> like an OS than any other home computer till then. And >Christos> man, wasn't 68k assembly a joy :) >Linus Torvalds also bought Sinclair Ql back in the day - I was >quite surprised to find out that it had a 32bit CPU (according to his >autobiography). 68008 at 8 MHz with 32bit architecture, 16bit ALU (long operations took 2 cycles), 8bit external bus (to communicate with cheap memory and other ICs), 20bit max address space, but with complete compatibility with 68000 machine code. For example, one could issue the following *single* instruction: MOVE.L ($18000), ($18004) to copy the long from address 98304 to address 98308. Intel provided such functionality much later; I am not sure if even the 386 could use memory indirect on both operands... If only IBM had chosen Motorola for its new PC, 64KiB memory segments would be something to laugh at, not something to remember and cry about... -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
> "Christos" == TZOTZIOY writes: Christos> (first hw upgrade I ever did!), and one year and a half Christos> later, I managed to get the Sinclair QL, with better Christos> BASIC, multitasking capabilities, and something more Christos> like an OS than any other home computer till then. And Christos> man, wasn't 68k assembly a joy :) Linus Torvalds also bought Sinclair Ql back in the day - I was quite surprised to find out that it had a 32bit CPU (according to his autobiography). -- Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 24 Mar 2005 02:35:34 -0800, rumours say that "Michele Simionato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> might have written: >I am pretty much convinced I could have mastered Python at the age >of nine. Of course, I cannot prove it, since when I was nine >I had no computer, I did not know English, and Python was not >yet invented. But apart for this minor circumstances, I don't >thing I was dumber as a child than as an adult. At the age of nine at school, two guys from a French computer-making company named as "Loup" (in french) or "Lupo" (in Italian), can't remember which --if either is correct--, came and gave us a demo of one of their models. They wrote a simple BASIC program on the blackboard and proceeded in explaining what the program did, and then asked for a kid to type it. I was chosen randomly, and I managed to do that, but I *didn't* understand a thing. See, I didn't either know English (we had French at school), and I had no contact with computers earlier. I had a good knowledge of how things work in the surrounding world, even knew a lot about electricity and how it works (I had played a lot with batteries, buttons, wires and lights in order to make some amazing devices to use with my friends when we were playing "Galactica" or "Space 1999" or "Star Trek"...), but *this* I couldn't grok. This was the challenge that marked my life, I can say. Next year I managed to get my parents into buying me a ZX Spectrum 16K, the year after that I managed to get them into buying me the 32K RAM upgrade (first hw upgrade I ever did!), and one year and a half later, I managed to get the Sinclair QL, with better BASIC, multitasking capabilities, and something more like an OS than any other home computer till then. And man, wasn't 68k assembly a joy :) >The problem teachers face when explaining computers to kids, is >to keep them interested, so they prepare courses about graphics, >videogames, etc. But if you get the right kid, he/she will be >interested even on "IBM Fortran IV with WATFOR and WATFIV" ;) The second book on computers I *bought* was "Artificial Intelligence on the Sinclair QL" (age 12 --I bought the book *before* I got the QL :). The first was "1001 Games for the ZX Spectrum" (age 11). We had lots of computer magazines though, with lots of source code in them to keep a kid interested then (the age of home computers)... >Personally, at that age I knew everything about the solar system >planets, distances from the Sun, masses, diameters, albedos, etc. >Fortunately, now I have forgot nearly everything ;) Unless you play trivial pursuit with friends, in which case such knowledge is very useful (and doesn't get forgotten :) -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving." (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Michele Simionato: >Actually, one could even make the case that children are much > better than adults at learning new things. In the case of natural languge it has been pretty much proven that children are (much) better/faster at learning then adults. Now it is left to be shown if this carries over to programing languages. - Haz -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Your post and the following answers made me think. It is widely held that the intellectual capabilities of children are inferior to the capabilities of adultes. Nevertheless, I wonder to which extent this is true. There is no doubt that the critical sense is much less developed in children than in adults: for instance, as a child, I would never had thought of questioning the existence of Santa Klaus ;) But here I am discussing other kind of intellectual capabilities, in particular the ability to learn a programming language. I think the problem most kids face is *not* lack of intellectual capability, but lack of concentration. Most kids cannot keep their concentration focused on a single topic for a long period of time, so they start one thing and never finish it, since they have a thousand other little things to do in the mean time. Becoming older, the ability to discipline themselves increases, so it is probably easier to learn a programming language for a 15 year old than for 9 year old. This as a general rule. There are, of course, exceptions. Many people will never have the needed discipline to learn a programming language. On the other hand, some people are able to maintain their concentration focused for a long period of time even in early age. When I was 2-3 years old I was able to spend whole *days* working on my Lego construction set. The problem was to keep me out of my work and explain me that it was time to eat! ;) I am pretty much convinced I could have mastered Python at the age of nine. Of course, I cannot prove it, since when I was nine I had no computer, I did not know English, and Python was not yet invented. But apart for this minor circumstances, I don't thing I was dumber as a child than as an adult. Actually, one could even make the case that children are much better than adults at learning new things. Adults are better at understand things, seing the correlations between them, and the inconsistencies (if any). The problem teachers face when explaining computers to kids, is to keep them interested, so they prepare courses about graphics, videogames, etc. But if you get the right kid, he/she will be interested even on "IBM Fortran IV with WATFOR and WATFIV" ;) Personally, at that age I knew everything about the solar system planets, distances from the Sun, masses, diameters, albedos, etc. Fortunately, now I have forgot nearly everything ;) Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
Well i don't know of any tutorials but i thought of a cool little "assignment" that might interest someone of that age assuming english is her first language. Its a neat little trick with english and the way that we proccess letter combinations (or should i say permuations). But a program that turned proper english into this, might be neat. """ Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. """ the algo whold be something like openfile for word in file tmp=word[0] tmp+=permut(tmp[1:-2]) tmp+=word[-1] print word She could enjoy sending letters like this, neat secrete codes for a nine year old ;) Linky http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/personal/matt.davis/Cmabrigde/ G'Luck - Haz P.S. I just had my friend read it and his native tongue is chinese, so might work for other languages too. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
you may want to introduce her to programming competitions, which will provide her with a very strong foundation of algorithm design and programming techniques. http://oldweb.uwp.edu/academic/mathematics/usaco/ > I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I > have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 on an equally old > Pentium Pro box. She is enjoying it tremendously and has no problems > understanding simple desktop operations and the file system basics > (Needless to say - she has already mastered the 30 or so games I > installed for her). > > Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python (because > I believe it is best suited for this purpose and, yes, also because it > is my favorite language). The only tutorial I have found so far is > "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist - Learning with Python" which, > while very good indeed, is geared towards adult newbie students. > > Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain > *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and > entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right > now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving > small problems? > > Many thanks in advance, > > TN -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
On 23 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I > have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 on an equally old > Pentium Pro box. She is enjoying it tremendously and has no problems > understanding simple desktop operations and the file system basics > (Needless to say - she has already mastered the 30 or so games I > installed for her). > > Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python (because > I believe it is best suited for this purpose and, yes, also because it > is my favorite language). The only tutorial I have found so far is > "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist - Learning with Python" which, > while very good indeed, is geared towards adult newbie students. > > Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain > *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and > entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right > now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving > small problems? http://www.livewires.org.uk/ run use python to teach programming at their camp. They have their course material on their website under a Free license. -- Stephen Thorne Development Engineer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain > *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and > entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right > now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving > small problems? If she's a real nerd, just give her the regular Python tutorial and turn her loose. Maybe you could give her a Logo book to go along with it. The book I used at that age was "IBM Fortran IV with WATFOR and WATFIV" and I don't see how any Python book could be unfriendlier than that for a kid. But I still became computer-obsessed from it and have stayed that way ever since. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python for a 10-14 years old?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 on an equally old Pentium Pro box. She is enjoying it tremendously and has no problems understanding simple desktop operations and the file system basics (Needless to say - she has already mastered the 30 or so games I installed for her). Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python (because I believe it is best suited for this purpose and, yes, also because it is my favorite language). The only tutorial I have found so far is "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist - Learning with Python" which, while very good indeed, is geared towards adult newbie students. Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving small problems? Many thanks in advance, TN Let her mess around with it on her own. I'm 15 and have been using Python for 2-3 years and had nothing to really go on. Give her Dive Into Python or How to Think Like a Computer Scientist and let her ask questions if she needs help. -- -- Lucas Raab lvraab located at earthlink.net dotpyFE located at gmail.com AIM:Phoenix11890 MSN:dotpyfe "@" gmail.com IRC:lvraab ICQ:324767918 Yahoo: Phoenix11890 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python for a 10-14 years old?
Hi, I am blessed with a *very* gifted nine-years old daughter for whom I have recently installed an old GNU/Linux Mandrake 7.2 on an equally old Pentium Pro box. She is enjoying it tremendously and has no problems understanding simple desktop operations and the file system basics (Needless to say - she has already mastered the 30 or so games I installed for her). Now, I would like to teach her programming basics using Python (because I believe it is best suited for this purpose and, yes, also because it is my favorite language). The only tutorial I have found so far is "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist - Learning with Python" which, while very good indeed, is geared towards adult newbie students. Is there something out there like "Python for kids" which would explain *basic* programming concepts in a way which is accessible and entertaining for kids aged 10-14 (that about where her brain is right now) and which would allow them to "play around" and have fun solving small problems? Many thanks in advance, TN -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list