Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
Carroll, Barry wrote: > Greetings: > > Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup > habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences. > > One of the nicest things about being human is the amazing flexibility of > our brains. For example, if a block of text isn't arranged in the order > we're used to, we can easily rearrange it mentally and read it anyway. > Oriental and Arabic peoples, for example, do this each time they read > something written in English. It's EASY, once you get used to it! > That's as may be. but just last week I was presented with a printed five-page message where all contributors to the thread had top-posted. There were four and five levels of quoting in some places, line wrapping was all over the place as a result, and it was difficult to even make out which bits were quoted at the same level. If everyone had refrained from top-posting then it would have been much easier to read the ensuing (linear) conversation. In short: top-posting doesn't hurt in simple cases, but it's a real hurdle to understanding in the long-running threads typically generated on mailing lists and newsgroups. There are many people who find it natural to consider their own convenience over that of hundreds or thousands of others, so by all means continue with your top-posting habit if it's too much trouble to avoid it. It's unlikely to get you killed, but it *does* say something about you, and people will draw conclusions, possibly incorrect ones, about you as a result. As a final riposte, our personal opinions aren't really much of a guide to the wishes of the masses, whereas the reaction of the masses (as in: "Why do you top-post?") often is. How often do you see someone ask "please start top-posting"? I've had precisely one such request in many many years of email and Internet usage. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Blog of Note: http://holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] > The information contained in this message and any attachment may be > proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work > product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader > of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or > agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify me > immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all > copies and backups thereof. Thank you. ... and while we're talking about annoyances ... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
Carroll, Barry schreef: > Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that > mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like > to see it. You see, I recently returned to Usenet after a LONG absence. > When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI > interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. > Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common > practice, because it was the most convenient: you didn't have to page > through an arbitrarily large number of messages, most of which you'd > already read umpteen times, to get to the new stuff you were interested > in. I started to use the Internet and Usenet around 1992 or 1993, and at the time 'Netiquette' was a very common word. Amongst others it recommends inline replying (as opposed to both top-posting and bottom-posting), in spirit if not in exact wording. The Wikipedia article on Netiquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette) mentions it with as many words: "Quoting should be interspersed, with a response that follows the relevant quoted material. The result should read like a conversation, with quotes indented to aid in skimming. A common mistake is to put all new text above the quoted material, without trimming any irrelevant text. This results in a message that is much harder to follow and is much less clear in context." All groups I read at the time used that convention. In my experience it was only in more recent times that people started to use top-posting, and then only in newsgroups, forums, etc. that didn't originate in the original Internet culture. > So I'd really like to know what the standard is now. I like to know > which rules I'm choosing to break. ;^) You could do worse than RFC 1855 (http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html) and the above mentioned Wikipedia article. Both cover many other issues regarding online behavior. There's also http://wiki.ursine.ca/Top_Posting which just covers quoting practices. But note that inline replying isn't as wide-spread as I think it ought to be. Places that don't have roots in Internet or Unix culture are much more likely to accept and even encourage top-posting. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
Paul Rubin schreef: > No. Top posting has always been an aberrance. It first appeared in > Usenet when Usenet (a word whose etymology comes from "Unix" and > "network") started attracting Microsoft Windows users, who were in the > habit of using Windows products that top-posted. That happened fairly > far along in Usenet's evolution Yep. The time when things started to go wrong is sometimes pinpointed as september 1993 and referred to as "Eternal September" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September). -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
Dane Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > On Friday 19 January 2007 22:51, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: >> "Steven D'Aprano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Or perhaps I should say: >> > >> > .snoitnevnoc >> > hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM >> > ton ,puorgswen egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus >> > era ereht fi neve tuB >> >> First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something. >> >> Then it was like being in my first year of school again- >> reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is. >> >> I suppose it will improve with practice. > > Not to steer this topic even futher off topic, but this is > something that's been on my mind lately... > > The biggest problem with it that the letters were forwards and > not also backwards (and the parens). But then, it's my > understanding that as a left-handed person, reading and writing > backwards is far easier for me than for the majority that is > right-handed. Have any other lefties found that the case? How would anybody know? As a left-hander, I have found it easy enough to read backwards, but then, being left-handed forces a certain habit of adaptability in any case. Maybe that makes it easier to read backward, but that is not a task I'm often called on to do. It takes practice regardless. This subthread reminds me of my *highly secure* plaintext encryption system that would render the sentence as I think it looks vaguely Esperantonic (Esperantoid? Esperantic?), if anything. -- rzed -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
On 2007-01-20, Nick Maclaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "Carroll, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >|> >|> My thanks to Aahz and the others who responded. I also did some >|> Googling on my own. I found out that top-posting is the norm in the >|> e-mail world. Bottom- and inline-posting are the norm in the newsgroup >|> world. =20 > > Sorry, even that is not so. I have been using Email since the 1960s, > and top-posting has been used only by the inconsiderate. ...or the beleaguered. Since my school's IT switched to Exchange, correct email composition is really annoying. The only way to do it is to manually cut into a real editor, and then past back in the entire message. This is not worth the hassle for interoffice communication, since everyone else is stuck with stupid top-posting, too. It's been an interesting journey, from some unix-based terminal email, to Lotus Notes (ARRGH!), then a happy time using IMAP, and now back to (ARRGH!). -- Neil Cerutti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Carroll, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: |> |> My thanks to Aahz and the others who responded. I also did some |> Googling on my own. I found out that top-posting is the norm in the |> e-mail world. Bottom- and inline-posting are the norm in the newsgroup |> world. =20 Sorry, even that is not so. I have been using Email since the 1960s, and top-posting has been used only by the inconsiderate. Note that, when you include a complete document in a message (whether Email or anything else), then you should put it at the bottom. Rather like an appendix. But top-posting when you are responding to Email is as discourteous as top-posting when you are responding to newsgroups. |> So I concede the point, and I'm bottom-posting like a good citizen. =20 Excellent! Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
On Friday 19 January 2007 22:51, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: > "Steven D'Aprano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Or perhaps I should say: > > > > .snoitnevnoc > > hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton > > ,puorgswen egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve > > tuB > > First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something. > > Then it was like being in my first year of school again- > reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is. > > I suppose it will improve with practice. Not to steer this topic even futher off topic, but this is something that's been on my mind lately... The biggest problem with it that the letters were forwards and not also backwards (and the parens). But then, it's my understanding that as a left-handed person, reading and writing backwards is far easier for me than for the majority that is right-handed. Have any other lefties found that the case? -Dane -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
::CLAP CLAP:: thank you! I have been in the newsgroups for over 12 years and I never cared about the top/bottom post silliness. All I care about is that the message is clearly written. Everything else is doggerel. > -Original Message- > From: Carroll, Barry > > Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup > habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences. ::CLAP CLAP:: thank you! I have been in the newsgroups for over 12 years and I never cared about the top/bottom post silliness. All I care about is that the message is clearly written. Everything else is doggerel. The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
"Steven D'Aprano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or perhaps I should say: > > .snoitnevnoc > hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen > egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something. Then it was like being in my first year of school again- reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is. I suppose it will improve with practice. - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
"Carroll, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI > interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. > Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common > practice, because it was the most convenient. No. Top posting has always been an aberrance. It first appeared in Usenet when Usenet (a word whose etymology comes from "Unix" and "network") started attracting Microsoft Windows users, who were in the habit of using Windows products that top-posted. That happened fairly far along in Usenet's evolution, since Usenet got started in the late 1970's when there was no such thing as Microsoft. Usenet itself inherited some of its conventions from Arpanet culture, which got started in the 1960's. > you didn't have to page through an arbitrarily large number of > messages, most of which you'd already read umpteen times, to get to > the new stuff you were interested in. Proper Usenet convention has always been to trim out the previous stuff except what you were directly replying to, and to intersperse that stuff, like this message. The practice of splatting in umpteen layers of unedited past messages (whether at the top or bottom) is another abomination popularized by those same Windows products. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
I should write a python script to read this. :) >.snoitnevnoc >hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen >egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:20:26 -0800, Carroll, Barry wrote: > It took me about 3 seconds to realize that Mr. D'Aprano' Q&A session was > laid out bottom-to-top instead of top-to-bottom. After that, it made > perfect sense. Three seconds, compared to about thirty milliseconds if it were written in the normal fashion. That's an inefficiency of about two orders of magnitude. Multiply that by a few hundred news posts and emails that you might read in a day, and, well, I think that makes it a big deal. That means top posting is to effective communication what exchange-sort is to quicksort. I use the analogy advisably: just as there is overhead to quicksort that makes it slower for sufficiently small lists, so there is overhead to in-line posting that makes top posting easier for the reader under quite restricted circumstances: you're reading the posts in order, and the entire thread (or at least the relevant parts of it) are still in short term memory. > While it was a excellent way to demonstrate his > argument, it failed to prove his point, because, while top-to-bottom may > be the way he reads things, it isn't the way _everyone_ reads things. There are, as far as I know, no human languages that write from the bottom of the page upwards. But even if there are such languages, we're on an English language newsgroup, not Martian, and so we should (whenever possibly) adapt English conventions. > So, as far as I'm concerned, post your posts in whatever manner works > for you. If it's in English, I'll figure it out. If not, well, there's > always Babelfish. ;^) Or perhaps I should say: .snoitnevnoc hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
> -Original Message- > From: Aahz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 3:29 PM > To: python-list@python.org > Subject: Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack) > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Carroll, Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that > >mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like > >to see it. <> > > Funny, I've been on Usenet for more than fifteen years, continuously > (and long-windedly -- but that's another matter) and I've never seen a > Usenet group where top-posting was standard. Anyway, here's a good > resource: > > http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html > -- > Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html My thanks to Aahz and the others who responded. I also did some Googling on my own. I found out that top-posting is the norm in the e-mail world. Bottom- and inline-posting are the norm in the newsgroup world. So I concede the point, and I'm bottom-posting like a good citizen. Regards, Barry [EMAIL PROTECTED] 541-302-1107 We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals. -Quarry worker's creed -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
At Friday 19/1/2007 18:43, Carroll, Barry wrote: Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like to see it. There are some guidelines, like RFC 1855 (not a real standard, or enforced in any way): http://www.faqs.org/ftp/rfc/rfc1855.txt "If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original AT THE TOP OF THE MESSAGE, or include just enough text of the original to give a context (...) But do not include the entire original!" (capitals added by me). You see, I recently returned to Usenet after a LONG absence. When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common practice, because it was the most convenient: you didn't have to page through an arbitrarily large number of messages, most of which you'd already read umpteen times, to get to the new stuff you were interested in. Really? Top posting a common practice? I'm not a youngster either and I've never seen top posting as a *norm* but an exception. Old newsreaders had a new/quoted ratio, and enforced it to be rather high - so it was not easy to forget to trim the quoted text. http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html Digging a bit one can find some old recommendations, like the Big Dummy's Guide to the Internet (1993): http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/bdgtti/bdgtti_2.html Or people puzzled on how this works: http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/browse_thread/thread/a75b1f4cfe470276/b38f62fc633db61e -- Gabriel Genellina Softlab SRL __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Carroll, Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that >mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like >to see it. You see, I recently returned to Usenet after a LONG absence. >When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI >interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. >Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common >practice, because it was the most convenient: you didn't have to page >through an arbitrarily large number of messages, most of which you'd >already read umpteen times, to get to the new stuff you were interested >in. =20 Funny, I've been on Usenet for more than fifteen years, continuously (and long-windedly -- but that's another matter) and I've never seen a Usenet group where top-posting was standard. Anyway, here's a good resource: http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
On 1/19/07, Carroll, Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that > mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like > to see it. For what (very little) it's worth, see RFC 1855. -- Jerry -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Carroll, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: |> |> Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that |> mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like |> to see it. You see, I recently returned to Usenet after a LONG absence. |> When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI |> interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. |> Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common |> practice, because it was the most convenient: you didn't have to page |> through an arbitrarily large number of messages, most of which you'd |> already read umpteen times, to get to the new stuff you were interested |> in. =20 When I started to use this sort of thing, in the early 1970s, top posting was already deprecated. And top posting is only more convenient if you are merely adding a "me, too" or equivalent, and not responding in detail. But you have been told both of those before. Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
Hello again. First off, Aahz is absolutely right. It is my choice, just as it is his choice what to read and what to ignore. My reply was about the fuss, not the choice. Secondly, can someone point me to the Standard Usenet Convention that mandates against top-posting. This is not sarcasm; I would really like to see it. You see, I recently returned to Usenet after a LONG absence. When I was last a regular Usenet citizen the Internet was new, GUI interfaces were experimental and the World Wide Web didn't exist yet. Newsreader software was text-based. Top-posting was the common practice, because it was the most convenient: you didn't have to page through an arbitrarily large number of messages, most of which you'd already read umpteen times, to get to the new stuff you were interested in. So I'd really like to know what the standard is now. I like to know which rules I'm choosing to break. ;^) Regards, Barry [EMAIL PROTECTED] 541-302-1107 We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals. -Quarry worker's creed > -Original Message- > From: Aahz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:12 PM > To: python-list@python.org > Subject: Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack) > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Carroll, Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup > >habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences. =20 > > Thing is, nobody will ignore your posts for following standard Usenet > conventions, but some of us will definitely ignore your posts if you > don't. It's your choice how much attention you want. > -- > Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Carroll, Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup >habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences. =20 Thing is, nobody will ignore your posts for following standard Usenet conventions, but some of us will definitely ignore your posts if you don't. It's your choice how much attention you want. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
