Re: python vs java eclipse
Amir Michail a écrit : Hi, It seems to me that measuring productivity in a programming language must take into account available tools and libraries. Eclipse for example provides such an amazing IDE for java that it is no longer obvious to me that one would be much more productive in python for medium sized projects. Sure, all that Java static typing can be painful, but Eclipse takes some of that pain away. Moreover, static typing can result in better on-the-fly error detection and refactoring support. Any thoughts on this? Yes : Python's productivity does not only comes from dynamic typing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Amir Michail wrote: Hi, It seems to me that measuring productivity in a programming language must take into account available tools and libraries. Eclipse for example provides such an amazing IDE for java that it is no longer obvious to me that one would be much more productive in python for medium sized projects. Sure, all that Java static typing can be painful, but Eclipse takes some of that pain away. Moreover, static typing can result in better on-the-fly error detection and refactoring support. Any thoughts on this? Amir FYI: http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=PyDevEclipseList hg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Hi, Here's a blog post that is relevant to this discussion: http://sixthandredriver.typepad.com/river_of_code/2006/01/automated_refac.html Amir -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: python vs java eclipse
If you're in the PyDev perspective, F9 runs the current script while ctrl-F11 reruns the last script run. I have found that certain types of operations just plain don't work this way and must be run from a conventional shell window. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of krishnakant Mane Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:19 AM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: python vs java eclipse just used the py dev plugin for eclipse. it is great. auto indentation and intellisence. and all other things. so now how does it look from this end? python + productivity and eclipse + productivity = double productivity! only problem with the plugin is that I find it difficult to manage the script running. I open a command prompt and run the scripts manually. any suggestion for this. for example I had name = raw_input(please enter your name) and the moment I type the first letter on the keyboard the code execution moves over to the next statement. should it not wait for the return key as it always does? Krishnakant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
On 1 Dec 2006 01:24:47 -0800, Amir Michail [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eclipse for example provides such an amazing IDE for java that it is no longer obvious to me that one would be much more productive in python for medium sized projects. Eclipse can generate a lot of the Java boilerplate code, it's true, saving you a lot of typing up front. But it can't maintain all those reams of pointless code for you, and perhaps more importantly, it can't read it for you. All the useless code that Java requires still has a large price, even if you don't need to type it yourself. Sure, all that Java static typing can be painful, but Eclipse takes some of that pain away. Moreover, static typing can result in better on-the-fly error detection and refactoring support. I do sometimes spend some time finding and fixing bugs of the I though I had a Spam instance, but it turns out to be a Eggs instance issues when coding in Python, but then I spend some time sorting out I know you've got a fry() method in there somewhere - just let me call it! issues in Java, so it balances out. And the latter problems are more annoying, 'cos I feel the compiler isn't trusting me. Python usually trusts me, even if I don't always deserve it. ;-) FWIW, I spend perhaps 80% of my coding time with Java (and Eclipse), and 20% with Python. -- Cheers, Simon B [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
just used the py dev plugin for eclipse. it is great. auto indentation and intellisence. and all other things. so now how does it look from this end? python + productivity and eclipse + productivity = double productivity! only problem with the plugin is that I find it difficult to manage the script running. I open a command prompt and run the scripts manually. any suggestion for this. for example I had name = raw_input(please enter your name) and the moment I type the first letter on the keyboard the code execution moves over to the next statement. should it not wait for the return key as it always does? Krishnakant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
krishnakant Mane wrote: just used the py dev plugin for eclipse. it is great. auto indentation and intellisence. and all other things. so now how does it look from this end? python + productivity and eclipse + productivity = double productivity! only problem with the plugin is that I find it difficult to manage the script running. I open a command prompt and run the scripts manually. any suggestion for this. for example I had name = raw_input(please enter your name) and the moment I type the first letter on the keyboard the code execution moves over to the next statement. should it not wait for the return key as it always does? Krishnakant. I don't know about raw_input ... my programs all go through some GUI ... but I run / debug(although almost never) all of my applications from pydev - no need to change project as with Visual Studio, I just run/debug whatever I need with a few clicks ... have not touched Konsole in weeks. I also, after weeks of testing, decided to invest in the pydev extensions / the bugs it has found for me already justify the investment. hg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Thomas Ploch schrieb: Amir Michail schrieb: Hi, It seems to me that measuring productivity in a programming language must take into account available tools and libraries. Eclipse for example provides such an amazing IDE for java that it is no longer obvious to me that one would be much more productive in python for medium sized projects. Sure, all that Java static typing can be painful, but Eclipse takes some of that pain away. Moreover, static typing can result in better on-the-fly error detection and refactoring support. Any thoughts on this? Amir Yes, thats true, but since eclipse is resource monster (it is still using java), and some people (like me) don't have a super fresh and new computer, and have to run other services to test their work locally (like mysql and apache servers), it gets pretty harsh with eclipse. I personally tried eclipse on my laptop (which I work most with), and I had quite a system resource problem. So I switched back to vim and console and it hasn't been too bad, since if you know how to use a powerful editor, it can be as productive. But in the end, it is up to anyone to find the best solutiion for themselves. Thomas Yes, thats true, but since eclipse is resource monster (it is still using java), and some people (like me) don't have a super fresh and new computer, and have to run other services to test their work locally (like mysql and apache servers), it gets pretty harsh with eclipse. I personally tried eclipse on my laptop (which I work most with), and I had quite a system resource problem. So I switched back to vim and console and it hasn't been too bad, since if you know how to use a powerful editor, it can be as productive. But in the end, it is up to anyone to find the best solutiion for themselves. Thomas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Thomas Ploch wrote: Thomas Ploch schrieb: Amir Michail schrieb: Hi, It seems to me that measuring productivity in a programming language must take into account available tools and libraries. Eclipse for example provides such an amazing IDE for java that it is no longer obvious to me that one would be much more productive in python for medium sized projects. Sure, all that Java static typing can be painful, but Eclipse takes some of that pain away. Moreover, static typing can result in better on-the-fly error detection and refactoring support. Any thoughts on this? Amir Yes, thats true, but since eclipse is resource monster (it is still using java), and some people (like me) don't have a super fresh and new computer, and have to run other services to test their work locally (like mysql and apache servers), it gets pretty harsh with eclipse. I personally tried eclipse on my laptop (which I work most with), and I had quite a system resource problem. So I switched back to vim and console and it hasn't been too bad, since if you know how to use a powerful editor, it can be as productive. But in the end, it is up to anyone to find the best solutiion for themselves. Thomas Yes, thats true, but since eclipse is resource monster (it is still using java), and some people (like me) don't have a super fresh and new computer, and have to run other services to test their work locally (like mysql and apache servers), it gets pretty harsh with eclipse. I personally tried eclipse on my laptop (which I work most with), and I had quite a system resource problem. So I switched back to vim and console and it hasn't been too bad, since if you know how to use a powerful editor, it can be as productive. But in the end, it is up to anyone to find the best solutiion for themselves. Thomas If you compare eclipse to VS, it is not that memory hungry - but i agree with you that a min-config is needed. Yet (I believe that) a complete IDE can bring functions that an editor, however powerful, cannot (I still use emacs). I have tried Komodo, Wing, Eric3, Idle, emacs, (not vi ;-) ), SPE, boa-constructor, and many more - I like most of them but am really addicted to eclipse + pydev. ... but even without pydev, I would not use java just because of eclipse. hg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
krishnakant Mane wrote: just used the py dev plugin for eclipse. it is great. But isn't support for java better because the eclipse ide can take advantage of explicit type declarations (e.g., for intellisense, refactoring, etc.)? Amir auto indentation and intellisence. and all other things. so now how does it look from this end? python + productivity and eclipse + productivity = double productivity! only problem with the plugin is that I find it difficult to manage the script running. I open a command prompt and run the scripts manually. any suggestion for this. for example I had name = raw_input(please enter your name) and the moment I type the first letter on the keyboard the code execution moves over to the next statement. should it not wait for the return key as it always does? Krishnakant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Amir Michail escreveu: krishnakant Mane wrote: just used the py dev plugin for eclipse. it is great. But isn't support for java better because the eclipse ide can take advantage of explicit type declarations (e.g., for intellisense, refactoring, etc.)? Amir The support for Java is light-years ahead. Sometimes I feel that Eclipse is coding for me (quickfix, for instance). There's the fact that Eclipse is developed in Java, so they are eating their own dogfood. That said, the code completion for Python is still in its early stages. There is a lot of room for improvement, even for a dynamic language. Stephen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Stephen Eilert wrote: The support for Java is light-years ahead. Sometimes I feel that Eclipse is coding for me (quickfix, for instance). Eclipse may be quite a technical achievement, but I found it irritating. Aside from the misuse of screen real-estate, I found that typing two characters and having what seemed like half my source file underlined in red, with multiple messages telling me that I had yet to define or import something or other when what I was about to do was to write the declaration, all conspired to make me want to scream, WTF do you think I was going to type in about five seconds time? Work it out and autocomplete it if you're so damned clever! So, Eclipse certainly has its share of detractors, too. ;-) [...] That said, the code completion for Python is still in its early stages. There is a lot of room for improvement, even for a dynamic language. Agreed. I don't believe in endless refactoring, and I think that's frequently a symptom of using an overly inflexible statically typed language (where it's more like Refactoring - the big R symbolising the seriousness and heavy lifting involved), but there are often times when I've wondered whether something could alert me to obvious breakage, especially after fairly big changes, acting possibly within the editing environment. I suppose pylint and similar tools have been working towards that goal, but I often wonder about producing something more subtle: something which is more clever than looking at modules and globals, and yet doesn't nag you continously about things which you'll discover almost immediately anyway. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Paul Boddie wrote: Eclipse may be quite a technical achievement, but I found it irritating. Aside from the misuse of screen real-estate, I found that typing two characters and having what seemed like half my source file underlined in red, with multiple messages telling me that I had yet to define or import something or other when what I was about to do was to write the declaration, all conspired to make me want to scream, WTF do you think I was going to type in about five seconds time? Work it out and autocomplete it if you're so damned clever! I had exactly the same experience when trying out Eclipse :D I'll stick with good ol' vi. Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #227: Fatal error right in front of screen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
hg wrote: Thomas Ploch wrote: Yes, thats true, but since eclipse is resource monster (it is still using java), and some people (like me) don't have a super fresh and new computer If you compare eclipse to VS, it is not that memory hungry And if you compare Saturn to Jupiter, it's not that big. Yet (I believe that) a complete IDE can bring functions that an editor, however powerful, cannot Is there anything _useful_ that it'll bring that a good editor doesn't? e.g. in vim I do get * automatic syntax checking (if I type if a=1: and hit enter, it'll immediately highlight the syntax error) * omni-completion (because Intellisense is trademarked) * refactoring (with BicycleRepairMan integration) * folding (which is more important than the above 3 combined, IMO) * online help (typing cmp( gives me the docstring for cmp in the status line, F1 to view the whole thing) As well as all the basics (tags/class browser/good regex support/syntax highlighting/autoindent/source control integration/etc). I'm not trolling here, I'm looking for interesting new features I can steal. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Is there anything _useful_ that it'll bring that a good editor doesn't? e.g. in vim I do get * automatic syntax checking (if I type if a=1: and hit enter, it'll immediately highlight the syntax error) * omni-completion (because Intellisense is trademarked) * refactoring (with BicycleRepairMan integration) * folding (which is more important than the above 3 combined, IMO) * online help (typing cmp( gives me the docstring for cmp in the status line, F1 to view the whole thing) As well as all the basics (tags/class browser/good regex support/syntax highlighting/autoindent/source control integration/etc). I'm not trolling here, I'm looking for interesting new features I can steal. How about we try to find some papers on the subject? Here's one to start things off: http://pag.csail.mit.edu/~akiezun/companion.pdf Amir -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python vs java eclipse
Amir Michail wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Is there anything _useful_ that it'll bring that a good editor doesn't? e.g. in vim I do get * automatic syntax checking (if I type if a=1: and hit enter, it'll immediately highlight the syntax error) * omni-completion (because Intellisense is trademarked) * refactoring (with BicycleRepairMan integration) * folding (which is more important than the above 3 combined, IMO) * online help (typing cmp( gives me the docstring for cmp in the status line, F1 to view the whole thing) As well as all the basics (tags/class browser/good regex support/syntax highlighting/autoindent/source control integration/etc). I'm not trolling here, I'm looking for interesting new features I can steal. How about we try to find some papers on the subject? Thanks. Seems a bit high-level to be very useful, and the plethora of examples around self encapsulate field seem inapplicable, but it makes me wonder if there's anything to be gained by integrating the vim refactoring support with the Vim 7 undo branches. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
