Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:56 PM wrote: > > W dniu niedziela, 1 grudnia 2019 05:42:35 UTC+1 użytkownik John Ladasky > napisał: > > > For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal stack of > > Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible to corrupt the > > OS, or so I've gathered. > > > > Well, I've never heeded this advice, and so far nothing bad has happened to > > me. I don't like Anaconda, or virtual environments in general. I don't > > like heavyweight IDE's. I like to be able to type "python3" at the command > > prompt and be sure what I'll be getting. I have multiple user accounts on > > a system that I manage, and I want every user account to have access to the > > same modules. > > > > Maybe the modules that I require are safe to install on the system Python, > > I'm not sure. My must-haves are mostly scientific computing and data > > management modules: Numpy, Scipy, Scikit-learn, Matplotlib, Pandas, > > Biopython, and Tensorflow. I also use PyQt5 from time to time. > > > > Can anyone provide concrete examples of problems arising from installing > > modules on top of the system Python? Am I courting disaster? > > > I did not heard of such problems. But I have another warning. Ubuntu 18.4 > uses Python 3.6. Do not try to install 3.7 or 3.8 as systemwide python3 > version. It breaks some programs including standard terminal. > And that's where the distinction between "system Python" and "default Python" comes in. You are absolutely right that you shouldn't replace the *system* Python. However, changing what the command "python3" runs is safe. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
W dniu niedziela, 1 grudnia 2019 05:42:35 UTC+1 użytkownik John Ladasky napisał: > For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal stack of > Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible to corrupt the > OS, or so I've gathered. > > Well, I've never heeded this advice, and so far nothing bad has happened to > me. I don't like Anaconda, or virtual environments in general. I don't like > heavyweight IDE's. I like to be able to type "python3" at the command prompt > and be sure what I'll be getting. I have multiple user accounts on a system > that I manage, and I want every user account to have access to the same > modules. > > Maybe the modules that I require are safe to install on the system Python, > I'm not sure. My must-haves are mostly scientific computing and data > management modules: Numpy, Scipy, Scikit-learn, Matplotlib, Pandas, > Biopython, and Tensorflow. I also use PyQt5 from time to time. > > Can anyone provide concrete examples of problems arising from installing > modules on top of the system Python? Am I courting disaster? I did not heard of such problems. But I have another warning. Ubuntu 18.4 uses Python 3.6. Do not try to install 3.7 or 3.8 as systemwide python3 version. It breaks some programs including standard terminal. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 3:46 PM John Ladasky wrote: > > Long-time Ubuntu user here. > > For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal stack of > Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible to corrupt the > OS, or so I've gathered. > > Can anyone provide concrete examples of problems arising from installing > modules on top of the system Python? Am I courting disaster? > I'm going to start by separating out two concepts that are often, but not always, the same. The "system Python" is the one that the OS depends on. On my Debian Stretch, that's /usr/bin/python3 (symlink to /usr/bin/python3.5). On older systems, that might be a Python 2.7 (or worse). This is the installation of Python that is managed by your OS package manager, and - more importantly - is the one that any OS-provided scripts will depend on. The "default Python" is the one you get when you type "python3" at the shell. Often this is the same as the system Python, but there's no requirement for this to be the case. On many of my systems, I compile and install a new build of Python periodically (usually from the master branch, so it's a pre-alpha), and I'm happy for that to take over the name "python3". Currently, on my main system (the aforementioned Debian Stretch), that's /usr/local/bin/python3 (a symlink to /usr/local/bin/python3.9). Since the system Python is managed by your OS package manager, you need to be careful about using pip to install packages into it. For instance, if I were to "/usr/bin/python3 -m pip install psycopg2", it would potentially conflict with "sudo apt install python3-psycopg2". You MAY be safe using pip to install something that isn't available in your package manager, but it's possible to run into dependency versioning conflicts. Be careful. But installing into your default Python, if it's not the system Python, is absolutely safe. Or rather, if it breaks anything, then it's not your fault - it's the fault of something depending on the system Python but not using an absolute shebang :) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On 12/1/19 10:41 AM, Michael Torrie wrote: > On 11/30/19 9:42 PM, John Ladasky wrote: >> Can anyone provide concrete examples of problems arising from >> installing modules on top of the system Python? Am I courting >> disaster? > No you aren't. I've also never had any problems. I've installed many > things into my root system Python installation with pip including PyQt5. > It's just easier for me to have them in the system installation. I'm > on a CentOS 7 box, which depends on Python 2 for a lot of system > functions. I've moved to Python 3 now, so I mess with the system Python > less and less. I understand that I probably should be using a > virtualenv and pip installing into that, but I'm just too lazy. > > A couple of years ago I even managed to upgrade the system Python from > 2.6 to 2.7 without any issues. I ended up making an RPM that neatly > upgraded the system one. I also have upgraded the gtk2 bindings and the > GTK2 library itself (again building RPMs), and everything worked fine, > even the graphical centos utilities. > > The only problems I've ever heard of come from trying to manually remove > stuff from Python that the system depended on. I've never heard of any > problems installing additional modules. 90% of the time the module you > need will be in the repositories, so no worries there at all. And not > much to worry about for the rest. My guess is that the issue is with some more complicated/esoteric packages. Especially if there are ones that don't maintain strict backwards compatibility, so that some packages using them have a maximum usable version as well as a minimum usable version. This can lead to troubles as some packages become incompatible because one needs a version greater than x, while another needs a version less than x. -- Richard Damon -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On 11/30/19 9:42 PM, John Ladasky wrote: > Can anyone provide concrete examples of problems arising from > installing modules on top of the system Python? Am I courting > disaster? No you aren't. I've also never had any problems. I've installed many things into my root system Python installation with pip including PyQt5. It's just easier for me to have them in the system installation. I'm on a CentOS 7 box, which depends on Python 2 for a lot of system functions. I've moved to Python 3 now, so I mess with the system Python less and less. I understand that I probably should be using a virtualenv and pip installing into that, but I'm just too lazy. A couple of years ago I even managed to upgrade the system Python from 2.6 to 2.7 without any issues. I ended up making an RPM that neatly upgraded the system one. I also have upgraded the gtk2 bindings and the GTK2 library itself (again building RPMs), and everything worked fine, even the graphical centos utilities. The only problems I've ever heard of come from trying to manually remove stuff from Python that the system depended on. I've never heard of any problems installing additional modules. 90% of the time the module you need will be in the repositories, so no worries there at all. And not much to worry about for the rest. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:33:50 -0800 (PST) John Ladasky wrote: > The only thing I must install with pip is tensorflow-gpu. For > everything else, I make use of the Ubuntu repositories. The Synaptic > package manager installs packages (including Python modules) for all > user accounts at the same time, which I like. > > When I installed tensorflow-gpu using pip, I was in fact frustrated > because I couldn't figure out how to deploy it across multiple user > accounts at one time. I ended up installing it three times, once in > each account. You're suggesting that's actually preferred, at least > when pip is performing the installation. OK, I will endure the > repetition. You can set up a system-wide virtualenv (for instance in /usr/local/lib/myenv) and use pip install as root to set up everything into that. All the normal users have to do then is prepend /usr/local/lib/myenv/bin to their PATH. After that, you have a system-wide consistent distribution of all your needed Python packages. You can then uninstall all python packages provided by the Linux distro which you don't need. At the moment it seems as if all you need to install locally with pip is tensorflow-gpu. This will change once some future version of tensorflow-gpu depends on newer versions of the system-provided packges. When that happens, pip will pull all those packages into the user's local venv, and it will have to do that individually for each user. BTW, it took me a long time to embrace Python's "virtualenv" concept because I had a hard time figuring out what it was and how it worked. Turns out that there is no magic involved, and that "virtual environment" is a misnomer. It is simply a full Python environment in a separate location on your system. Nothing virtual about it. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:47:43 AM UTC-8, Cameron Simpson wrote: > On 01Dec2019 09:29, Manfred Lotz <...@posteo.de> wrote: > >On Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) > >John Ladasky <...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal > >> stack of Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible > >> to corrupt the OS, or so I've gathered. > > > >This is nonsense as you presumably have no permission to change > >anything Python related in /usr. > > > >The only possiblity I can imagine is that you somehow screw up your > >personal Python related setting in your home directory tree. But I have > >never (in the short period of time I've been using Python) encountered > >anything like this. > > What is to be avoided: Some people run pip as root and install in the > vendor/supplier controlled space. This can lead to various problems, as > it can conflict with or simply vary the system installed packages. > > Provided the OP is using pip in its (modern default) "install in my home > directory" mode, they should be fine. > > Cheers, > Cameron Simpson <...@cskk.id.au> The only thing I must install with pip is tensorflow-gpu. For everything else, I make use of the Ubuntu repositories. The Synaptic package manager installs packages (including Python modules) for all user accounts at the same time, which I like. When I installed tensorflow-gpu using pip, I was in fact frustrated because I couldn't figure out how to deploy it across multiple user accounts at one time. I ended up installing it three times, once in each account. You're suggesting that's actually preferred, at least when pip is performing the installation. OK, I will endure the repetition. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On 01Dec2019 09:29, Manfred Lotz wrote: On Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) John Ladasky wrote: For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal stack of Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible to corrupt the OS, or so I've gathered. This is nonsense as you presumably have no permission to change anything Python related in /usr. The only possiblity I can imagine is that you somehow screw up your personal Python related setting in your home directory tree. But I have never (in the short period of time I've been using Python) encountered anything like this. What is to be avoided: Some people run pip as root and install in the vendor/supplier controlled space. This can lead to various problems, as it can conflict with or simply vary the system installed packages. Provided the OP is using pip in its (modern default) "install in my home directory" mode, they should be fine. Cheers, Cameron Simpson -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: "Don't install on the system Python"
On Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) John Ladasky wrote: > Long-time Ubuntu user here. > > For years, I've read warnings about not installing one's personal > stack of Python modules on top of the system Python. It is possible > to corrupt the OS, or so I've gathered. > This is nonsense as you presumably have no permission to change anything Python related in /usr. The only possiblity I can imagine is that you somehow screw up your personal Python related setting in your home directory tree. But I have never (in the short period of time I've been using Python) encountered anything like this. -- Manfred -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
