Re: How do you program in Python?
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:56:09 +0200, Sybren Stuvel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I'm usually annoyed by IDEs because, for instance, they don't use VIM as an editor. Since I'm hooked to that, all IDEs I've used so far have failed to impress me. Same here (s/VIM/Emacs/, or course). I try not to make myself too dependent on some specialized software, because (a) I tend to work on different Linux or Unix machines, or even on Windows and (b) my development cycle is almost the same whether I'm programming in Python, Perl, C++ or C (or writing in HTML, troff or LaTeX, for that matter). Emacs and vim are almost always installed, or trivially installable. All I need to remember is to bring my emacs config file. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Jorgen Grahn wrote: Emacs and vim are almost always installed, or trivially installable. All I need to remember is to bring my emacs config file. And, fortunately, USB pen drives are now big enough to hold it! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:10:44 +1000, Gregory Bond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jorgen Grahn wrote: Emacs and vim are almost always installed, or trivially installable. All I need to remember is to bring my emacs config file. And, fortunately, USB pen drives are now big enough to hold it! Hey, it's not fair to make fun of emacs now that I've mentioned vim favourably so many times ;-) Seriously, nothing about emacs seems big or slow today. It has been outbloated by pretty much everything else. Who could have imagined /that/ ten years ago? /Jorgen (And just in case this thread deteriorates into a silly emacs-vs-vi argument, I hereby declare myself out of the game.) -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Jorgen Grahn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey, it's not fair to make fun of emacs now that I've mentioned vim favourably so many times ;-) Seriously, nothing about emacs seems big or slow today. It has been outbloated by pretty much everything else. Who could have imagined /that/ ten years ago? Actually, it hasn't. Then again, maybe it depends on how you use it. I start an xemacs at login, and leave it running forever. Just like I do a shell. It slowly accretes buffers as time goes by, many of them useless (why do I need to keep traces of 14 POP sessions around?). As a result, xemacs is usually the second biggest thing on my system I treat most programs that way. I never exit them, just unmap them. My WM is configured to map a single existing window, launch the application if there is no existing window, or offer a menu of windows if there's more than one existing window when I ask for an application. So I tend to have a lot of old, big processes on the system. And xemacs is usually bigger than everything but X. And people wondered when I complained that Mac OS 9 and Windows 98 crashed a lot :-). mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On 7/6/2005 5:38 AM, Jorgen Grahn wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:35:16 +0100, anthonyberet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of You probably want to check out Wing IDE 2.0. There is a free trial. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: How do you program in Python?
I'm old school and have been very happy with emacs (on windows) and the python extensions. I just edit my file and hit control-C twice and it runs. I'm also using eclipse with PyDev and it's ok, but sluggish. -Original Message- From: anthonyberet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:35 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: How do you program in Python? My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest... I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine without undue messing about. What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? - I really don't know about IDEs in general, and I suspect I would be out of my depth with one of those. Thanks, and feel free to mock ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list --- The information contained in this message may be privileged and / or confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and deleting the material from any computer. --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Peter, I do all my work using Scite Me too! So, any time I need to test the changes, I hit four keys (which at this point is understandably more like a chord that I hit without direct awareness of it) and I'm done. Sounds pretty close to old-style BASIC and since I've come that route too (in the distant past), this may not be a coincidence. in addition I have set up scite and paths so that F5, the scite run command, invokes python myskript.py, with output given in the scite output area (and saving before) in addition, ctrl+1 does a compile (checking for syntax errors) and exceptions are printed out in the scite output, colourcoded and with double-click on them scite opens the appropriate script at the offending position. VERY quick. Harald -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Aahz wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After 25 years doing this, I've become something of a Luddite as far as fancy IDEs and non-standard features go... and a huge believer in strict decoupling between my tools, to the point of ignoring things that bundle them together in ways that are, in my opinion, too tight. Sorry! :-) +1 QOTW +1 insight of the century. This is the heart of the unix way - lots of simple little programs that do exactly one thing well, and can be composed through simple, clean interfaces. For actually getting things done, a toolkit beats a swiss army knife. tom -- This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Tom Anderson wrote: +1 insight of the century. This is the heart of the unix way - lots of simple little programs that do exactly one thing well, and can be composed through simple, clean interfaces. For actually getting things done, a toolkit beats a swiss army knife. Perhaps, but I'm puzzled how that explanation would apply to emacs and those who use it as a swiss army knife, doing everything from editing to email to laundry in the same editor... (Note: this isn't a flame about emacs, nor vi for that matter, just a discussion about the apparent conflict in the two philosophies embodied by the simple little programs and the emacs approaches.) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On 2005-07-05, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: +1 insight of the century. This is the heart of the unix way - lots of simple little programs that do exactly one thing well, and can be composed through simple, clean interfaces. For actually getting things done, a toolkit beats a swiss army knife. Perhaps, but I'm puzzled how that explanation would apply to emacs and those who use it as a swiss army knife, doing everything from editing to email to laundry in the same editor... It doesn't. Emacs doesn't follow the Unix way. (Note: this isn't a flame about emacs, nor vi for that matter, just a discussion about the apparent conflict in the two philosophies embodied by the simple little programs and the emacs approaches.) Who said there wasn't a conflict? -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Xerox your lunch at and file it under sex visi.comoffenders! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tom Anderson wrote: +1 insight of the century. This is the heart of the unix way - lots of simple little programs that do exactly one thing well, and can be composed through simple, clean interfaces. For actually getting things done, a toolkit beats a swiss army knife. Perhaps, but I'm puzzled how that explanation would apply to emacs and those who use it as a swiss army knife, doing everything from editing to email to laundry in the same editor... Since you asked Unix tools require a complex environment to run in. Without a Unix kernel (or some simulation thereof), the don't work at all. Without a friendly shell, it's hard to get them to communicate with each other - which is what makes building things out of the pieces so easy. If you want to run those tools on a different OS, you have to port the environment. Emacs tools require a different environment: a running emacs. It's all kept in one process, so it looks like one big program from the Unix perspective. But it's actually a lot of smaller(*) programs running in a shared address space. There's lots of differences between the two, but a discussion of that is really OT for the group. mike *) Smaller is relative, of course. A UMA or a web browser isn't exactly a small tool in either environment. -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:35:16 +0100, anthonyberet wrote: I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? - I really don't know about IDEs in general, and I suspect I would be out of my depth with one of those. Eclipse and pydev are good. for testing out small routines you can use ipython, which is great. -- If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark Twain -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
On Sunday 03 July 2005 11:35 am, anthonyberet wrote: What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). How old style? Basic has changed a lot over the years. ;-) But seriously, I think I know what you mean. I'm going to suggest that you try going very low tech with this and don't use an IDE at all. I'm sure you have some form of window environment (X, Windows, or Mac) and can open a terminal and an editor of your choice on screen (even if it's Notepad). Start the Python interpreter up in the terminal by just typing python. In the interpreter you can try simple one or two liners. You can even define a short function and try it out. But you'll get annoyed by having to up-arrow and retrieve lines one- by-one to repeat the function after you've made a mistake, so that'll get old for anything more than 5 lines long. So, use your editor. Type up a short program that you want to test in the editor, then copy and paste it into the Python interpreter. This way, when you (inevitably) find mistakes, you can just tweak them in the editor and then paste them again. You can, of course, paste statements from the interpreter back into your editor, but you'll have to avoid the prompts (or delete them), so it's usually better to write in the editor and paste into the interpreter. And when you're done, you can just save the result to file so you can get it back later. My point is, you don't have to use a fancy all-in-one application to do the job, nor must you run your programs from within your editor. It's not so hard to just use tools you already understand. Personally, I did things like this for years, and still do from time to time. I've hardly ever used an IDE, and I'm still not totally convinced they are worth the effort involved in learning them. I used to hop from computer to computer a lot, and if I tried to learn my way around separate IDEs on Macs, Windows, DOS, Solaris, and Debian Linux, I would've spent a lot of time twiddling with the tools instead of just writing code. Lately, I've settled into using Vim, which is nice editor (especially if you once wrote a several thousand line program in Vi with nothing but a fold-up quick reference for a manual ;-) ). There may well be friendlier ones, but I know this one fairly well, and it has a pretty large community of developers who are constantly tweaking it to make it a better editor for programming. I only just recently started seriously customizing it to work well with Python, though. You can always go shopping for an IDE to buy into heavily *after* you've learned the language. Meanwhile, don't let trifles get in the way -- just use your window system as your IDE. That way, you can pick the editor to suit you. And the Python interpreter is great, it will give you no trouble and quick answers. -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
anthonyberet wrote:
My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest...
I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get
along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine
without undue messing about.
What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC
interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of
code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time,
or re-typing it over and over
(snip)
I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple
interface that I have described?
Try Emacs + python-mode. Emacs surely has a lot of warts, but I'm still
looking for a better and more versatile code editor/IDE - specially when
it comes to languages with REPL (- Read-Eval-Print Loop).
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
bruno modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try Emacs + python-mode. Emacs surely has a lot of warts, but I'm still looking for a better and more versatile code editor/IDE - specially when it comes to languages with REPL (- Read-Eval-Print Loop). When you build Python, make sure you build it with Gnu readline support. Then you can just fire up an interpreter, and use emacs (or, I suppose, vi) editing commands to scroll back through (and change) your input history. It's not as good as a real IDE, but it's still very handy for quick explorations. The next step up would be to run a real emacs, do M-X shell, then fire up a Python interpreter inside that. Or, go into split screen mode in emacs, editing your python source file in one window and running a shell in the other. Edit some code in the source window, and it takes about 6 keystrokes to save it, flip to the other window, and re-run the file (you can get it down to a single keystroke by defining a simple macro and binding it to a function key). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Roy Smith wrote:
bruno modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Try Emacs + python-mode. Emacs surely has a lot of warts, but I'm still
looking for a better and more versatile code editor/IDE - specially when
it comes to languages with REPL (- Read-Eval-Print Loop).
When you build Python, make sure you build it with Gnu readline support.
Then you can just fire up an interpreter, and use emacs (or, I suppose, vi)
editing commands to scroll back through (and change) your input history.
It's not as good as a real IDE, but it's still very handy for quick
explorations.
The next step up would be to run a real emacs, do M-X shell, then fire up a
Python interpreter inside that.
Or, go into split screen mode in emacs, editing your python source file in
one window and running a shell in the other. Edit some code in the source
window, and it takes about 6 keystrokes to save it, flip to the other
window, and re-run the file (you can get it down to a single keystroke by
defining a simple macro and binding it to a function key).
Err... actually, using python-mode is *way* more simple:
[ctrl+c ! to launch the REPL (this splits the frame) if it's not already
running]
[ctrl+x o to go back to the source code buffer]
then
ctrl+c ctrl+c to execute the whole buffer in the REPL
or
select a region then ctrl+c ctrl+l to execute the selected region in the
REPL
Of course, the REPL now reflect any changes made into the source code
buffer (even if changes have not been saved) !-)
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After 25 years doing this, I've become something of a Luddite as far as fancy IDEs and non-standard features go... and a huge believer in strict decoupling between my tools, to the point of ignoring things that bundle them together in ways that are, in my opinion, too tight. Sorry! :-) +1 QOTW -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest... I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine without undue messing about. What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over bruno (snip) I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? bruno Try Emacs + python-mode. Emacs surely has a lot of warts, bruno but I'm still looking for a better and more versatile code bruno editor/IDE - specially when it comes to languages with REPL bruno (- Read-Eval-Print Loop). Emacs is an excellent long-term time investment. See http://www.emacswiki.org for good justice. R, C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
+1 on investing in emacs. There's a shiny new release of the Oreilly, which is (a really large book) that a lot of people teach themself out of: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/gnu3/ But i would also recommend komodo from activestate's IDE, easy and powerful, once you understand what all's in the menu- toolbars: http://www.activestate.com/Products/Komodo/?_x=1 (Maybe look at WingIDE, too, i've heard it's good) And the python quick refs: http://rgruet.free.fr/PQR24/PQR2.4.html http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/excerpt/PythonPocketRef/index.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
anthonyberet wrote: My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest... I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine without undue messing about. What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? - I really don't know about IDEs in general, and I suspect I would be out of my depth with one of those. The property of basic to have explicit linenumbering is the reason you've been able to work in that style of programming, as you could simply overwrite parts of the program. But that's close to undoable in all other languages. Python has the interactive REPL that you can use to toy around interactively and is very helpful to me - especially when enriched with rlcompleter2. - You can even replace functions or classes while working and toying around. But the amount of reasonable editing work that can be done in the interpreter is pretty limited. You _need_ a decent editor for that. So what I usually do is to create a test.py that contains the code I want to tinker with, and simply run that in a shell - cygwin on windows, but usually I work in *NIX-style environments, so it's even easier. As there is no compilation or whatsoever required, that works pretty well for me. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
anthonyberet wrote: What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I do all my work using Scite (a nice free editor that was built to demonstrate the Scintilla plugin that can also be used in Python programs through things like the StructuredTextControl in wxPython), with the auto-save-on-loss-of-focus feature enabled, and a command prompt open in another window. I edit in the Scite window, hit Alt-Tab (under Windows XP) to change focus to the cmd console (and instantly all my modified files are saved), press the Cursor Up key to retrieve the previous command (which is generally the name of my script, or a command like python myscript.py), and hit Enter to execute it. So, any time I need to test the changes, I hit four keys (which at this point is understandably more like a chord that I hit without direct awareness of it) and I'm done. Sounds pretty close to old-style BASIC and since I've come that route too (in the distant past), this may not be a coincidence. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
anthonyberet wrote: My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest... I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine without undue messing about. What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I think you're missing something about IDLE if you are re-typing. For example: IDLE 1.1a3 for i in range(25): print i, When you type the above, you get 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Now let's say you want to re-run that with 10 instead of 25. You don't have to re-type it. Click to place your cursor anywhere in the original block of code and hit return. Idle will re-type the entire block for you: for i in range(25): print i, The cursor will be at the very end of the block so you can re-run it by hitting enter twice. But you'll get the same output. Instead of hitting enter twice, use your cursor keys (or mouse) to move to the 25 in the range function and edit it to 10. Once edited, move the cursor back to end of the block and hit enter twice to execute for i in range(10): print i, 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 It sounds worse than it is, just takes a little getting used to. Once you're happy with that code fragment, edit it again and add a definition at the start. [1] click in the block and hit enter, Idle re-types the block for i in range(10): print i, [2] place cursor in front of the 'for' and add a function name and change the 'for' to use the parameter instead of a constant def t(n): for i in range(n): print i, [3] hit enter (here we do want to insert a line) and IDLE will show you this (indents adjust automatically) def t(n): for i in range(n): print i, [4] move cursor to the end of the block (after the comma) and hit enter twice Nothing happens. You have defined a function, but did not execute it. To execute it, type its name with some value of n. t(8) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Now you can try it out with different values of n without having to edit the whole block. Now if you want to change the function definition, say we want each number output on a seperate line, do the same thing we did before. Click anywhere in the block and hit enter. The entire block is re-typed for you. Make your change (remove the comma) and hit enter twice. def t(n): for i in range(n): print i Again, the function is not executed. And you can always simply click on the previously typed line t(8) and hit enter twice t(8) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? - I really don't know about IDEs in general, and I suspect I would be out of my depth with one of those. Thanks, and feel free to mock ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Peter Hansen wrote: anthonyberet wrote: What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I do all my work using Scite (a nice free editor that was built to demonstrate the Scintilla plugin that can also be used in Python programs through things like the StructuredTextControl in wxPython), with the auto-save-on-loss-of-focus feature enabled, and a command prompt open in another window. I edit in the Scite window, hit Alt-Tab (under Windows XP) to change focus to the cmd console (and instantly all my modified files are saved), press the Cursor Up key to retrieve the previous command (which is generally the name of my script, or a command like python myscript.py), and hit Enter to execute it. So, any time I need to test the changes, I hit four keys (which at this point is understandably more like a chord that I hit without direct awareness of it) and I'm done. Sounds pretty close to old-style BASIC and since I've come that route too (in the distant past), this may not be a coincidence. Just curious. Why do you Alt-Tab to a console when you can just hit F5 in SciTE? That's just 1 key instead of 4. And yes, SciTE can autosave here too. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
Am Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:40:04 -0400 schrieb Peter Hansen: I do all my work using Scite (a nice free editor that was built to demonstrate the Scintilla plugin that can also be used in Python programs through things like the StructuredTextControl in wxPython), with the auto-save-on-loss-of-focus feature enabled, and a command prompt open in another window. I edit in the Scite window, hit Alt-Tab (under Windows XP) to change focus to the cmd console (and instantly all my modified files are saved), press the Cursor Up key to retrieve the previous command (which is generally the name of my script, or a command like python myscript.py), and hit Enter to execute it. I do the same thing without a command prompt, just pressing F5. SciTE sure is a good editor :-) Regards Michael -- Imagine being in a coma for a year and the hospital having to reboot your life-support once a week. That would take a lot of the fun out of it. As an aside, if I were on life-support, I'd rather have it run by a Gameboy than a Windows box. -- Cliff Wells, 2002/3/13, in comp.lang.python -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
anthonyberet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My question isn't as all-encompassing as the subject would suggest... I am almost a Python newbie, but I have discovered that I don't get along with IDLE, as i can't work out how to run and rerun a routine without undue messing about. What I would really like is something like an old-style BASIC interpreter, in which I could list, modify and test-run sections of code, to see the effects of tweaks, without having to save it each time, or re-typing it over and over (I haven't even worked out how to cut and paste effectively in the IDLE environment). I see lots of alternate IDEs etc, but which would allow me the simple interface that I have described? - I really don't know about IDEs in general, and I suspect I would be out of my depth with one of those. Thanks, and feel free to mock ;) Try an emacs (Xemacs is my preference). That should come with a python editing mode, which includes the ability to send code to a Python interpreter running in interactive mode in another window. So what you do is edit the code in a file on disk, and then ship it all to the interpreter (with C-c C-c). You can then use the objects defined in the file at the interperter prompt. After you identify a bug, you edit the function/method in question, and ship the function/class to the interpreter with M-C-x. You can then start playing with the new version of the function/class to check it. Note that this behavior isn't specific to Python. It's pretty standard emacs support for all languages that have a REPL loop. The command keys are even the same if you change languages. Be warned - changing a class doesn't change the code of any objects that were defined using the old class. So you get this sequence: x = MyClass() x.Test() # reveal bug in MyClass # edit MyClass.py, fix the bug, and M-C-x the class x.Test() # The bug is still there! x = MyClass() x.Test() # Now it's gone. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How do you program in Python?
James wrote: Peter Hansen wrote: I edit in the Scite window, hit Alt-Tab (under Windows XP) to change focus to the cmd console (and instantly all my modified files are saved), press the Cursor Up key to retrieve the previous command (which is generally the name of my script, or a command like python myscript.py), and hit Enter to execute it. Just curious. Why do you Alt-Tab to a console when you can just hit F5 in SciTE? That's just 1 key instead of 4. And yes, SciTE can autosave here too. Probably a variety of reasons. You might say ignorance is one of them (since I wasn't consciously aware of that feature), but it's really that I deliberately choose not to use and learn about such features of editors because I absolutely _hate_ getting tied to such things and finding myself stuck in other editors or on other machines and having my productivity drop to zero because a simple feature is missing. This is the same reason I no longer use any IDE, nor have any interest whatsoever in them other than out of simple curiosity. I used to learn all kinds of details about things like VisualCafe, CodeWright, IDLE, Boa Constrictor, Borland C++, a dozen different Microsoft products... no longer! If I didn't have Scite, I'd be able to use DOS Edit almost as effectively, and by observation I've concluded that using such primitive tools I'm often more effective than others around me who are stuck using the latest featureful tools... Also, I lied when I said cursor up retrieved the name of the script. Since I develop using Test-Driven Development, and use a simple suite of utilities to manage the test files and such, I'm more often executing something like story015 TestCase.test03, or perhaps just u (which runs all unit tests in the current folder), rather than the name of the script which I happen to be editing. Judging by how F5 appears to work, it wouldn't save me keystrokes either: I'd most likely be in some *other* file making changes (i.e. one of the modules under test) but would need to hit Alt-9 (or a bunch of Ctrl-Tabs) to switch to wherever story015.py was sitting. The file I want to run won't always be the one under my cursor, nor perhaps even loaded. After 25 years doing this, I've become something of a Luddite as far as fancy IDEs and non-standard features go... and a huge believer in strict decoupling between my tools, to the point of ignoring things that bundle them together in ways that are, in my opinion, too tight. Sorry! :-) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
