Re: Users banned
On 18/07/18 00:10, Jon Ribbens wrote: > On 2018-07-17, Thomas Jollans wrote: >> On 2018-07-16 01:29, Jon Ribbens wrote: >>> Do you have any reason to believe the message at the top of the >>> thread purporting to ban users was genuinely from the moderators? >>> Because there are obvious reasons to believe otherwise. >> >> Care to elaborate? > > Anyone can trivially forge a message from anyone, so there is no > reason to believe the message is genuine. Reasons to believe it is > not genuine include the poor formatting, poorly-written content, > inconsistent and insulting way the 'banned users' are referred to, > and the fact that out of the three people it purports to ban, one > was apparently already banned and another appears not to be a current > poster anyway. > > If it is a genuine message from the moderators then they really need > to improve their policy to give clear warnings to people before they > are banned, and they need to PGP-sign official messages so that they > can be recognised. > Perhaps, if there were more messages from moderators. On the other hand, headers from mail.python.org indicate that the message came from the right mail server (rather harder to fake), and I'm sure Ethan (who has been active since) or one of the other moderators would have said something if this were fake. As for clear warnings, as Terry said, we don't know what did or didn't happen in private emails. On 15/07/18 23:53, Chris Angelico wrote: > How about we trust the moderators to moderate wisely? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 2018-07-17, Thomas Jollans wrote: > On 2018-07-16 01:29, Jon Ribbens wrote: >> Do you have any reason to believe the message at the top of the >> thread purporting to ban users was genuinely from the moderators? >> Because there are obvious reasons to believe otherwise. > > Care to elaborate? Anyone can trivially forge a message from anyone, so there is no reason to believe the message is genuine. Reasons to believe it is not genuine include the poor formatting, poorly-written content, inconsistent and insulting way the 'banned users' are referred to, and the fact that out of the three people it purports to ban, one was apparently already banned and another appears not to be a current poster anyway. If it is a genuine message from the moderators then they really need to improve their policy to give clear warnings to people before they are banned, and they need to PGP-sign official messages so that they can be recognised. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 2018-07-16 01:29, Jon Ribbens wrote: > On 2018-07-15, Chris Angelico wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 7:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >>> Christian Gollwitzer : Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: > The following users are now banned from Python List: > ... > BartC I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. >>> >>> +1 >> >> How about we trust the moderators to moderate wisely? > > Do you have any reason to believe the message at the top of the > thread purporting to ban users was genuinely from the moderators? > Because there are obvious reasons to believe otherwise. > Care to elaborate? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 2018-07-17, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > But neither of these are prohibited by the CoC, neither of these should > be banning offense, and even if they were, he should have had a formal > warning first. > > Preferably TWO formal warnings: the first privately, the second publicly, > and only on the third offence a ban. > > And I question the fairness of a six month ban, rather than (let's say) > an initial one month ban. > > As for banning Rick, when he isn't even posting at the moment, I don't > even have words for that. There's no statute of limitation for murder, > but surely "being obnoxious on the internet" ought to come with a fairly > short period of forgiveness. Why is anyone responding as if the original "Users banned" message was genuine, rather than the obvious troll it actually was? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:03:39 +0100, Steve Simmons wrote: > +1 Seems to me Bart is being banned for "being a dick" and "talking > rubbish" (my words/interpretation) with irritating persistence. I know that when I first started here, I often talked rubbish. The difference is, I was willing to listen and consider when people gave alternate viewpoints. Eventually. And I know that some people think that I'm sometimes still being a dick. They're wrong, I'm just charmingly forthright *wink* Bart is often frustratingly resistant to reasonable argument, and has been obnoxious in his habit of bringing virtually every conversation into an opportunity to make a dig at Python. But neither of these are prohibited by the CoC, neither of these should be banning offense, and even if they were, he should have had a formal warning first. Preferably TWO formal warnings: the first privately, the second publicly, and only on the third offence a ban. And I question the fairness of a six month ban, rather than (let's say) an initial one month ban. As for banning Rick, when he isn't even posting at the moment, I don't even have words for that. There's no statute of limitation for murder, but surely "being obnoxious on the internet" ought to come with a fairly short period of forgiveness. -- Steven D'Aprano "Ever since I learned about confirmation bias, I've been seeing it everywhere." -- Jon Ronson -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 7/16/2018 3:27 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2018-07-16, Steve Simmons wrote: +1 Seems to me Bart is being banned for "being a dick" and "talking rubbish" (my words/interpretation) with irritating persistence. Wonder how many of the non-banned members have been guilty of the same thing in one way or another. I'm sure many of us have been guilty of one or both at some time or another. I think the level of "persistence" is the key. What we have not and will not see on the list is the private interchange between Bart and the moderators before they took the next to most extreme step (of permaban). -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 2018-07-16, Steve Simmons wrote: > +1 Seems to me Bart is being banned for "being a dick" and "talking > rubbish" (my words/interpretation) with irritating persistence. Wonder > how many of the non-banned members have been guilty of the same thing in > one way or another. I'm sure many of us have been guilty of one or both at some time or another. I think the level of "persistence" is the key. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I represent a at sardine!! gmail.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 16/07/2018 03:13, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:09 PM Jim Lee wrote: That is, of course, the decision of the moderators - but I happen to agree with both Christian and Ethan. Banning for the simple reason of a dissenting opinion is censorship, pure and simple. While Bart may have been prolific in his arguments, he never spoke in a toxic or condescending manner, or broke any of the rules of conduct. I cannot say the same for several who engaged with him. +1000 It seems to me like the python-list moderators are rewarding people for being bullies, by banning the people they were bullying. The behavior on the list the past few days has been unforgivably toxic, and that has nothing to do with the behavior of Bart et al. -- Devin +1 Seems to me Bart is being banned for "being a dick" and "talking rubbish" (my words/interpretation) with irritating persistence. Wonder how many of the non-banned members have been guilty of the same thing in one way or another. Steve Simmons -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:09 PM Jim Lee wrote: > That is, of course, the decision of the moderators - but I happen to > agree with both Christian and Ethan. Banning for the simple reason of a > dissenting opinion is censorship, pure and simple. While Bart may have > been prolific in his arguments, he never spoke in a toxic or > condescending manner, or broke any of the rules of conduct. I cannot > say the same for several who engaged with him. +1000 It seems to me like the python-list moderators are rewarding people for being bullies, by banning the people they were bullying. The behavior on the list the past few days has been unforgivably toxic, and that has nothing to do with the behavior of Bart et al. -- Devin -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 07/15/18 14:53, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 7:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Christian Gollwitzer : Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: The following users are now banned from Python List: ... BartC I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. +1 How about we trust the moderators to moderate wisely? ChrisA That is, of course, the decision of the moderators - but I happen to agree with both Christian and Ethan. Banning for the simple reason of a dissenting opinion is censorship, pure and simple. While Bart may have been prolific in his arguments, he never spoke in a toxic or condescending manner, or broke any of the rules of conduct. I cannot say the same for several who engaged with him. -Jim -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On 2018-07-15, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 7:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >> Christian Gollwitzer : >>> Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: The following users are now banned from Python List: ... BartC >>> >>> I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant >>> optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - >>> but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. >> >> +1 > > How about we trust the moderators to moderate wisely? Do you have any reason to believe the message at the top of the thread purporting to ban users was genuinely from the moderators? Because there are obvious reasons to believe otherwise. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 7:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Christian Gollwitzer : > >> Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: >>> The following users are now banned from Python List: >>> ... >>> BartC >> >> I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant >> optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - >> but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. > > +1 > How about we trust the moderators to moderate wisely? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
Christian Gollwitzer : > Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: >> The following users are now banned from Python List: >> ... >> BartC > > I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant > optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - > but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. +1 Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Users banned
Am 15.07.18 um 19:25 schrieb Ethan Furman: The following users are now banned from Python List: ... BartC I don't really think that this is appropriate. Bart may have deviant optinions, mostly he thinks that his own work is superior to Python - but he has always argued in a calm and technical manner. Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
