RE: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Well, I'm not qualified to analyse the reasons for your doubts, but I'd guess it's because you have preconceived notions. Tim Delaney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? > If you know German, there was just a job posting on this list for a python programmer. That would be at least one person. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
"walterbyrd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > If so, I doubt there are many. > I wonder why that is? Python programmers get their code working so fast that management has to find other things for them to do to fill their time. So they're not really making a living programming in Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Well I do. So do the other dozen or so developers at my company. We're looking to hire a few more, in fact. http://www.enthought.com/careers.htm -- Robert Kern "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." -- Umberto Eco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
2006/9/25, Robert Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > walterbyrd wrote: > > If so, I doubt there are many. > > > > I wonder why that is? > > Well I do. So do the other dozen or so developers at my company. We're looking > to hire a few more, in fact. And there are also those ReportLab guys: www.reportlab.com -- Felipe. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
For the last 5 years most of my jobs have been Python based. At two of those places Python has been the main but not only language used. Neil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd skrev: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Because you are ignorant? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? I earn a living programming with IronPython - at http://www.resolversystems.com A very cool place to work. :-) Fuzzyman http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
both my last summer jobs consisted entirely of python, and the jobs i'm looking at for next summer all involve python. and one of my profs makes a living teaching python. and the office i worked for 2 summers ago was 5 old guys who did nothing but python and stock trade analysis all day. if i'm lucky, my career employer after i get out of grad school will let me play with python and lisp all day everyday. [so, google, please don't start sucking any time soon.] walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Previously I used Python while earning a living working in IT at a college. Currently it is putting food on the table via contract jobs. I imagine there are "many" out there like me, doing just that. Christian http://www.dowski.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
where do you find these "contract jobs", if you don't mind my asking? Christian wrote: > walterbyrd wrote: > > If so, I doubt there are many. > > > > I wonder why that is? > > Previously I used Python while earning a living working in IT at a > college. Currently it is putting food on the table via contract jobs. > I imagine there are "many" out there like me, doing just that. > > Christian > http://www.dowski.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Software Development Magazine (maybe? been a while since I read the article) interviews lots of programmers yearly, asking - among other things - what programming languages they use. The article mentioned that Python's share has grown by about 1% a year for several years in a row. I think it was around 10-13% a year or two ago. Interestingly enough, Pythonistas earned relatively high salaries compared to others. -- Heikki Toivonen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
> > Well I do. So do the other dozen or so developers at my company. We're looking > to hire a few more, in fact. > I'm surprised. It seems I never see listings for python developers. I didn't mean any disrespect. I think python is a great language. It just doesn't seem like there is much demand for professional python developers. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > > > > Well I do. So do the other dozen or so developers at my company. We're > > looking > > to hire a few more, in fact. > > > > I'm surprised. It seems I never see listings for python developers. > > I didn't mean any disrespect. I think python is a great language. It > just doesn't seem like there is much demand for professional python > developers. What about Google? A good portion of their work is in python... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walter> If so, I doubt there are many. You're kidding, right? Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walter> It just doesn't seem like there is much demand for professional walter> python developers. Keep an eye on this page: http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ and if you're so inclined, subscribe to the RSS feed of that page. I think Peter Kropf is processing 3-5 new postings per week. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, walterbyrd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >If so, I doubt there are many. >I wonder why that is? Once upon a time, I was a Perl programmer. Then my job forced me to learn Python. Once I got hooked, I never looked back. I've had two different jobs as a full-time Python programmer -- my current company has existed for ten years on a platform built with Python. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" -- www.nancybuttons.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > does anybody earn a living programming in python? of course. > If so, I doubt there are many. don't be silly. > I wonder why that is? what what is ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > I'm surprised. It seems I never see listings for python developers. someone just posted this > Site Perl Python > Hotjobs 2756 655 > Monster >1000 317 > Dice 4828 803 to the "talking to marketing people" thread (see that thread for a discussion of what those numbers really mean). > I didn't mean any disrespect. I think python is a great language. It > just doesn't seem like there is much demand for professional python > developers. well, if you're only watching mtv, it's easy to think that there's obviously not much demand for country singers, blues musicians, British hard rock bands, or melodic death metal acts. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
> well, if you're only watching mtv, it's easy to think that there's > obviously not much demand for country singers, blues musicians, British > hard rock bands, or melodic death metal acts. These days its even hard to get the idea that there is a demand of boy bands, rnb, euro trash or any other popular music when watching it. But make sure you polish your mechanics degrees, there sure is to pimp something out there, and training a head-butt also will do you good... SCNR, Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
At Monday 25/9/2006 20:09, walterbyrd wrote: I do. If so, I doubt there are many. That's why they get well paid :) (uhm, not really... :( ) Gabriel Genellina Softlab SRL __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. My share of the waterfall :o) I do earn my (preposterously nice *wink*) salary from doing *all* major efforts, at the company I work for, in Python. Not only that, since I started out here some 5 years ago, nearly all software development of new thingys have moved to.. right! Python! That adds three more people. (We do use some Java for PDA's and also C++, the last just for maintenance of older SW) And even more, some of our PLC programmers use Python to auto-render PLC code for Siemens(!), significantly increasing their productivity in each and every project. So I guess you just have to listen in on the right frequencies *wink again* //M -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
George Sakkis wrote: > [Oslo, Norway short of 300-500 Java developers] > Um, how many of these "lots of Java developers looking for work" live > in, or are willing to relocate to, Oslo? Well, I really meant to say that the "lots of Java developers" I've seen actually are in Oslo. Certainly, every time this topic comes up in some article, people tend to complain about a mismatch between employer claims and their own experiences trying to get hired, and there wouldn't be much of a debate if those people were not within commuting distance. > Another point might be that many ads prefix the offered position with > "senior", and my > guess is that most of those looking for work don't really qualify, for any > reasonable > definition of "senior". It's quite possible that a lot of the people out in the job market don't have the experience with Java that employers supposedly demand, although in many cases that isn't anything to do with how long they've been in the business (one definition of "senior"). However, I'd question the need only for senior developers in a market for a particular technology, since it would suggest that either everyone seems to think that they're doing rocket science, or the technology isn't the most appropriate or efficient way to do the work (especially given the supposed lack of developers). However, knowing the corporate/political undercurrents behind some of these recruitment "advertorials", I might suggest that many of these supposedly available Java positions don't actually exist. If the handful of advertised Python positions do actually exist, on the other hand, we can at least estimate the prospects of Python practitioners with more certainty. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
AOL^H^H^H, me too. And it's paid better than C++ programming. HTH, Gerald Gabriel Genellina schrieb: > At Monday 25/9/2006 20:09, walterbyrd wrote: > > I do. > >> If so, I doubt there are many. > > > That's why they get well paid :) > (uhm, not really... :( ) > > > > Gabriel Genellina > Softlab SRL > > > > > __ > Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. > Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, > está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). > ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas > > -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: > someone just posted this > > > Site Perl Python > > Hotjobs 2756 655 > > Monster >1000 317 > > Dice 4828 803 > >From what I have seen, most of listings are not for python developers. Rather they list python as a "nice to have as an extra" skill. Same goes for perl. For example, sys admin jobs often list every scripting language the job writer can think of. There seem to be very few jobs where perl, or python, are the primary skills being sought. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd enlightened us with: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? www.uwklantprofiel.nl and www.uwpensioenanalyse.nl, both systems are written in Python, although the website of the former is still in PHP. It'll be Python soon, too. I've created both systems. Sybren -- Sybren Stüvel Stüvel IT - http://www.stuvel.eu/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in the same position. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. I program full-time in Python writing systems to automate the processing of health care claims. Lots of database usage, lots of objects, lots of fun to write it in python (I used to code C/C++ and Perl). > I wonder why that is? Me, too. Are you *sure* there aren't many?? --greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Anthony Baxter wrote: > This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of > people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast > majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten > years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in > the same position. well, I think I prefer the "are you sure you exist?" trolls over the "python sucks and you are all a bunch of clueless something something" and "this thing is broken beyond repair and you are all a bunch of clueless something something" trolls. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? > I've now used Python in every job I've had for the last 10 years. Started off with web-sites for a few months, then writing VRML-processing libraries to piece together and massage virtual worlds (not a *lot* of jobs there). After that worked on a piece of Cable-system SNMP monitoring software (again, not a *lot* of jobs in that). After that billing/provisioning systems for VoIP (you really only need one). The last two companies (one of which I own, one in which I was a partner) were python-only shops. PyGTA (Toronto Python User's Group), which is a fairly large user-group, seems to be about 60% (off-the-cuff estimate) paid Pythonistas, with some people picking it up for filling in corners and others spending all day working on it. The paid positions tend (like most programming positions in less-well-known general-purpose languages) to be programming + X for values of X which are a problem domain having an obscure nature. That is, boutique/bespoke development that requires some specialisation such that the customer is willing to go for whatever language is suitable and gets the job done. Regarding Java from one of the previous comments (and this is a cynical moment here, I'm really a far more positive person, just ignore this): There are still lots of jobs in Java, just as there are still lots of jobs in COBOL. Kids in the know (i.e. who *love* programming, rather than just wanting a job) going into university are minimising their Java exposure so that they don't box themselves into the big-old-company environments that have locked themselves into Java while everyone else moves onto the more dynamic languages/platforms. Job security and easy availability is not the be-all and end-all of happiness in life. That said, if you know anyone who "just wants a job", please, push them at Java, someone has to spend the next 30 years maintaining the Struts and J*EE sites people are putting together today in all those big institutions. Have fun, Mike Mike C. Fletcher Designer, VR Plumber, Coder http://www.vrplumber.com http://blog.vrplumber.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
I said: > > Previously I used Python while earning a living working in IT at a > > college. Currently it is putting food on the table via contract jobs. > > I imagine there are "many" out there like me, doing just that. faulkner wrote: > where do you find these "contract jobs", if you don't mind my asking? Both of my current contracts came by way of my involvement with the CherryPy open source project. Christian http://www.dowski.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>
> well, I think I prefer the "are you sure you exist?" trolls over the "python
> sucks
> and you are all a bunch of clueless something something" and "this thing is
> broken
> beyond repair and you are all a bunch of clueless something something" trolls.
I can see where the "trolling" is coming from, though. If you read
various "industry newspapers" you often see stories about there being a
huge demand for Java or .NET developers, whereas Python barely gets a
mention. One example I read recently [1] described how the marketplace
in Oslo, Norway is currently short of 300-500 Java developers, but if
you look beneath the surface, knowing that there are lots of Java
developers out there looking for work, a gulf between the story and the
facts emerges: the employers who vocally complain about a lack of
talent in the marketplace are typically either those who want to
promote their credentials in some realm ("we're the experts on Java and
can't do enough of it"), those who want to poach employees from their
competitors (a job advertisement for the in-crowd), those who only want
to hire cheap, recently graduated people and are just railing against
the supposed injustice of paying the market rate, or just those who
aren't good at recruiting people (if, as the article says, there's no
point in advertising jobs on high traffic job sites, even though many
companies have recruiters doing most of the legwork, one has to wonder
how competent the recruiters are, and what the employers think they're
paying for).
So, from the perspective of some person reading mainstream news
sources, talking to recruiters, reading job adverts, Python doesn't
appear that much. But one has to question what underlying interests are
at work in continually hyping the demand for other technologies, and if
personal networks are more effective at getting people work, whether
the old-school job classifieds market (on the Internet and otherwise)
is becoming a thing of the past.
Paul
[1] http://www.idg.no/karriere/karrierenyheter/article15027.ece
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Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Paul Boddie wrote: > One example I read recently [1] described how the marketplace > in Oslo, Norway is currently short of 300-500 Java developers, but if > you look beneath the surface, knowing that there are lots of Java > developers out there looking for work, a gulf between the story and the > facts emerges Um, how many of these "lots of Java developers looking for work" live in, or are willing to relocate to, Oslo? Another point might be that many ads prefix the offered position with "senior", and my guess is that most of those looking for work don't really qualify, for any reasonable definition of "senior". George -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote:
> If so, I doubt there are many.
We're at least two here...
> I wonder why that is?
>
I wonder why you have such an a priori ?
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
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Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Max M wrote: > walterbyrd skrev: > > If so, I doubt there are many. > > > > I wonder why that is? > > Because you are ignorant? In this particular subject: yes. My research of this subject was very limited, just looked at the major job boards, and compared demand for python developers to demand for other languages, such as java, c++, visual basic, or php. An unscientific test, I realize. But, it's not easy to get good data on such a subject: everybody has an agenda, it seems. I don't count jobs where python is an "also ran" skill. For example, sys-admin jobs where python is listed with a dozen other skills. The posts in this thread have been helpful. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
since 1997, i've been pretty much working full-time in Python: - at yahoo, we developed yahoo!mail in python (and some C++) - at synarc, i wrote software for doctors in python (and some C) - at ironport, most everything is in python (and some C, PyRex). we have a million lines in python (http://www.python.org/about/quotes/) for the forseeable future, i plan on keeping it this way. i took a contract which led me back to C, but as i was doing this, most of the time i felt like i was "wasting my time," e.g., char **x = (char**)malloc(...)... *x++ = (char*)malloc(...) ... free()... free()... (segmentation fault)... bus error... gdb... blah blah, led to thoughts such as, "i have better things to do with my time," "when does this contract end?", etc. it did, however, make me more appreciative of the C code which comprises the Python interpreter. i sense that because i had done that (C) before and realized how Python makes me more efficient, that i've become "spoiled" by it and am more picky about my opportunities... anyone else feel the same way? I saw the +1 from Aahz already. ;-) however, i can understand the original posters inquiry... you just don't see too many FT positions offered that list Python as the sole or major development language. i'm sure folks on the list either get "found" by companies that need Python skills, or, we want to keep those jobs to ourselves and spend time hacking sites to remove those listings. :-) it is also worthy to note that in general, the number of job listings which have the word "Python" in them have risen steadily over the past few years. i guess the "secret" is getting out. just subscribing to dice and monster have let me see this growth on a weekly basis. if you're lucky, one or two of the listings in these weekly lists will contain positions that are pretty much Python-only. cheers, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Mike C. Fletcher wrote: > walterbyrd wrote: > > If so, I doubt there are many. > > > > I wonder why that is? > > > I've now used Python in every job I've had for the last 10 years. > Started off with web-sites for a few months, then writing > VRML-processing libraries to piece together and massage virtual worlds > (not a *lot* of jobs there). After that worked on a piece of > Cable-system SNMP monitoring software (again, not a *lot* of jobs in > that). After that billing/provisioning systems for VoIP (you really > only need one). The last two companies (one of which I own, one in > which I was a partner) were python-only shops. > > PyGTA (Toronto Python User's Group), which is a fairly large user-group, > seems to be about 60% (off-the-cuff estimate) paid Pythonistas, with > some people picking it up for filling in corners and others spending all > day working on it. [snip..] I've only been to a couple of the London Python groups, but the ratio is a *bit* lower. Maybe 50%. In London you get people from Resolver, Reportlab and Jamkit (Zope) who use Python. Simon Brunning is a Pythonista in his spare time but uses Java at work. He has got Jython fairly deeply embedded though. Fuzzyman http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. I currently earn my living "programming in Python". This is particularly amusing given that it's a Java shop and I don't even know Python! I've only been using it for a few months as a replacement for the previous shell scripts and instead of Perl (which I know, but never liked). I'm nominally the "release manager" which is half tiresome monkey work and half is building vast Python-powered scripts to automate the aforementioned monkey work. I don't think I've written more than a line of actual Java since I've been there. One thing is sure though - I wouldn't have been _recruited_ as a Python coder. Supposedly they hired me on the strength of all-round experience and as a Java hack. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
wesley chun wrote: > since 1997, i've been pretty much working full-time in Python: > - at yahoo, we developed yahoo!mail in python (and some C++) > - at synarc, i wrote software for doctors in python (and some C) > - at ironport, most everything is in python (and some C, PyRex). we > have a million lines in python (http://www.python.org/about/quotes/) This is interesting to me in that all these jobs also involve C. I'm not the original poster, but I'd be interested to hear about people who make a living programming Python WITHOUT knowing C. I suppose this may be considered insane, but, well you said it best yourself: > char **x = > (char**)malloc(...)... *x++ = (char*)malloc(...) ... free()... > free()... (segmentation fault)... bus error... gdb... blah blah, led > to thoughts such as, "i have better things to do with my time," -- --OKB (not okblacke) Brendan Barnwell "Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail." --author unknown -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OKB (not okblacke) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is interesting to me in that all these jobs also involve C. >I'm not the original poster, but I'd be interested to hear about people >who make a living programming Python WITHOUT knowing C. In more than two years in my current job, the only time I've done any C programming was one time when we wanted to precisely specify how much memory was getting consumed per unit time. IOW, it was more of a sysadmin usage because we were trying to figure out why one machine was crashing. I spend less than 5% of my time in Java or shell scripting. There's a fair amount of SQL, and we have a proprietary HTML templating language that uses a lot of pseudo-Python. Other than that, it's all Python, baby. We actually do have a fair amount of code in Postscript, but I'm not one of the people maintaining that. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" -- www.nancybuttons.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
> From: "OKB (not okblacke)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 04:04:02 GMT > >> - at yahoo, we developed yahoo!mail in python (and some C++) >> - at synarc, i wrote software for doctors in python (and some C) >> - at ironport, most everything is in python (and some C, PyRex) > > This is interesting to me in that all these jobs also involve C. > I'm not the original poster, but I'd be interested to hear about people > who make a living programming Python WITHOUT knowing C. you make a good point, however, when you have to write an extension (performance, protect source code, library interface, etc.), you must write it in the natively-supported language in which the implementation of Python you're using is compiled in. for (C)Python, it's C/C++, Java for Jython, and C#/VB.NET for IronPython. if you have been successful at building projects completely in pure Python, that's great, but you're limited in that you won't be able to take advantage of the benefits of extensions or necessarily be able to hook up to native libraries that don't already have a Python adapter written for them. for the past employment i listed, the primary use of C was either an extension or a library adapter. of course, i never claimed above to have written any of that C code. ;-) my final thought is that you cannot truly appreciate a tool like Python until you've been in the trenches with C and done all that stuff that is now a "waste of time." cheers, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
On 26 Sep 2006 13:43:24 -0700, Fuzzyman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Simon Brunning is a Pythonista in his spare time but uses > Java at work. He has got Jython fairly deeply embedded though. Sure do. We also use Python for a lot of internal tools, the most complex probably being a fairly extensive code generator. (If you think you need to generate Python, you are almost certainly taking the wrong approach, but Java is repetitive, static, verbose and just plain hideous enough that code generation can be a good solution.) -- Cheers, Simon B, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. Depends on what you compare with. I'm pretty sure there are thousands of people working as Python programmers, and many more using it as a smaller tool in their work. Of course this is small compared to Java or C++. In the US, it seems a lot of companies in the animation industry, such as Dreamworks and Industrial Light & Magic regularly look for Python skilled people. In my vicinity, Göteborg with surroundings in Sweden, I know of several places where people work with Python. I'm sure the amount of C++, Java or VB programmers are magnitudes bigger, but there are also a lot more people eager to fill those positions. My employer, Jeppesen Systems AB, has dozens of Python programmers, and we train our customers to use Python for customization and integration etc. So, we know that a significant number of the world's largest air lines and some significant railroad companies have trained Python developers (we trained them) and use Python for customizing our products, and for e.g. integration with legacy systems. Just a few hundred meters from us, there is AB Strakt, which was more or less a pure Python company last time I looked. The pharmaceuticals company Astra Zeneca uses Python in some of their research, and I've seen people from other companies in the vicinity asking Python questions on various mailing lists etc. Python is certainly used in Chalmers, the technical University here. This is in a region with way less than one million inhabitants. I'm pretty sure we have >1 Python programmer per 10 000 inhabitants. Let's say that's above Swedish average. I still think there is at least 300 Python programmers among the 9 million people here. Although we're just 0.15% of the worlds populations, my experience is that we make and use something like 1% of the high tech stuff in the world, so my standard extrapolation technique would yield 3 python programmers globally. > I wonder why that is? Well, it takes time to change things, and many decision makers aren't very well informed. Maybe they are more likely to choose something which is marketed and supported by some large commercial entity. The rise of Linux and open source is changing that, but it takes time. If you look at languages introduced the last 15 years or so, I think Python is one of the more popular. The languages I can think of right now, that have appeared since 1990 or so, and received a significant mindshare are C#, Java, JavaScript, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby and Visual Basic. Of these, C#, Java and Visual Basic have serious commercial backing which promoted them heavily for certain applications, and provided a lot of convenient tools. Those languages are also closely modeled syntactically on a predecessor, C++ for Java, Java for C#, and VB is just a new BASIC dialect, which makes the transition to start using them easier, at the expense of retaining stupid aspect of old languages that we'd rather get rid of. I.e. getting started seems more important than getting it right. That should help in the short run, but be less good in the long run. Perl and CGI was the best available tool when the big web boost happened, and PHP has taken over that role. They are very popular in a particular niche (but Perl seems to be in decline) but like JavaScript, they are niche tools. Ruby is the language most like Python I guess, and it's nowhere near Python in popularity, even if RoR has given it a boost. As people have noticed, Python is often used together with C or C++, and it seems to me that Java programmer might prefer Ruby to Python. This might be because Java and Ruby are both purely OO, and might fit people who think OO is everything, while Python and C++ are multi paradigm programmers that share a different mindset. So, to summarize, Python is probably the most popular general purpose programming language invented since 1990 which didn't have multi billion dollar backing. Now, it has more backing, with Google investing in it, for instance by hiring the creator and other important Python developers. Python 2.5 has advanced it even further, and it seems to me that Python 3.0 will be a much smoother ride than Perl 6 turned out to be for the Perl community. IronPython and PyPy are also very interesting projects. Python is a generic programming language, so I don't think we need some kind of killer application like RoR. On the other hand, I think a really smooth IDE with a convenient GUI builder could help making it more widely spread "among the masses". -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
I do... but then I'm a grad student so I'm not sure what extent you would call it "a living" I know that Python is used __extensively__ in academia for running experiments where speed is not important. -Jeff Magnus Lycka wrote: > walterbyrd wrote: >> If so, I doubt there are many -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Mike C. Fletcher wrote: > Job security and easy availability is not the be-all and end-all of > happiness in life. That said, if you know anyone who "just wants a > job", please, push them at Java, someone has to spend the next 30 > years maintaining the Struts and J*EE sites people are putting > together today in all those big institutions. > Absolutely spot on Mike! :) Tony -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd, Answer: Yes. Definitely. And, to be correct, there are some who earn a rather comfortable living programming in Python. > If so, I doubt there are many. depending on your definition of "many". if "many" is something around "1% of population of earth", you are right. If "many" is "more than 1000", than you are wrong. I formyself earn the major part of my income doing Python - combined with database knowledge, of course. > I wonder why that is? There seems to be a challenge to have more people programm Python: to hire people with Python knowledge. Maybe the recruiters of Google can enlighten you on the prospects of Python programmers on the market :) Java is educated in a kind of vocational training in universities; but at the moment only the elite gets in touch with Python. Harald -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Anthony Baxter wrote: > This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of > people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast > majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten > years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in > the same position. Countless people? Are we talking aleph-zero people (countable infinity) or one of the uncountable infinities? -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Anthony Baxter wrote: > > > This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of > > people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast > > majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten > > years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in > > the same position. > > Countless people? Are we talking aleph-zero people (countable infinity) or > one of the uncountable infinities? Countless and uncountable are not the same thing. The former simply means you haven't bothered to count them yet, which as a basis for number theory, sounds like it belongs in a Douglas Adams book. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:17:28 -0400, Roy Smith wrote: > In article > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Anthony Baxter wrote: >> >> > This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of >> > people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast >> > majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten >> > years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in >> > the same position. >> >> Countless people? Are we talking aleph-zero people (countable infinity) or >> one of the uncountable infinities? > > Countless and uncountable are not the same thing. The former simply means > you haven't bothered to count them yet, which as a basis for number theory, > sounds like it belongs in a Douglas Adams book. You're thinking of "uncounted", which means "not counted yet". The dictionary definition of countless is "too many to count" (Pocket Oxford), which I suppose could be 11 for some people if they didn't take their shoes and socks off. Mathematically, any finite integer is able to be counted, so "countless" is equivalent to "infinite in number". Of course, I suppose it is conceivable that there isn't actually an infinite number of Python programmers living in Melbourne, and Anthony was exaggerating just a tad. Maybe it's not actually infinite, just very, very large. Graham's Number perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? Because Java has Sun's crazy-money behind it, and that pisses Microsoft off, so C# has MS's crazy-money behind it. And long before that, C was /the/ language because it was the only one that would allow you to actually program systems properly. I happen to know that Google does most of its admin scripting in Python. It can't be a small job, running a few hundred thousand servers worldwide and keeping them all up to date for system and security. --Blair -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:17:28 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:Countless and uncountable are not the same thing. The former simply means you haven't bothered to count them yet, which as a basis for number theory, sounds like it belongs in a Douglas Adams book. You're thinking of "uncounted", which means "not counted yet". Thedictionary definition of countless is "too many to count" (Pocket Oxford),which I suppose could be 11 for some people if they didn't take theirshoes and socks off. Mathematically, any finite integer is able to becounted, so "countless" is equivalent to "infinite in number".This is definitively faulty logic. The number could be countless do the other reasonslike time constraints and so on :)CheersTommy[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://homepage.mac.com/tgrav/"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction" -- Albert Einstein -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > If so, I doubt there are many. > > I wonder why that is? > As I've seen on the monster there are openings for Python developers. It is 30x less than Java, but there are less Python developers, so... I don't know is it easier to find the job as Python or as Java developer. I could try to find one as Python developer, to try how does it looks like... -- Mladen Adamovic http://www.online-utility.org http://www.cheapvps.info http://www.vpsreview.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Paul Boddie wrote: > George Sakkis wrote: > > [Oslo, Norway short of 300-500 Java developers] > > > Um, how many of these "lots of Java developers looking for work" live > > in, or are willing to relocate to, Oslo? > > Well, I really meant to say that the "lots of Java developers" I've > seen actually are in Oslo. Certainly, every time this topic comes up in > some article, people tend to complain about a mismatch between employer > claims and their own experiences trying to get hired, and there > wouldn't be much of a debate if those people were not within commuting > distance. > > > Another point might be that many ads prefix the offered position with > > "senior", and my > > guess is that most of those looking for work don't really qualify, for any > > reasonable > > definition of "senior". > > It's quite possible that a lot of the people out in the job market > don't have the experience with Java that employers supposedly demand, > although in many cases that isn't anything to do with how long they've > been in the business (one definition of "senior"). However, I'd > question the need only for senior developers in a market for a > particular technology, since it would suggest that either everyone > seems to think that they're doing rocket science, or the technology > isn't the most appropriate or efficient way to do the work (especially > given the supposed lack of developers). Are you hiring? :-) It's so frustrating seeing all those job postings that require a "mimimum 10 years experience". -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Yes. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Dan Bishop wrote: > > Are you hiring? :-) No, just complaining. ;-) > It's so frustrating seeing all those job postings that require a > "mimimum 10 years experience". I've seen adverts with phrasing that could have been interpreted as having meant "minimum 10 years .NET experience", and that was a couple of years ago. Of course, despite the presumed lack of knowledge of the recruiter who wrote the advert, it's quite possible that something else was meant, but the quality of prose in such adverts is usually either so poor that you wonder whether "good written communication skills" wouldn't also be beneficial in the recruitment business, or the text merely consists of a checklist of recruitment clichés, that it's hard to know exactly what they're getting at sometimes. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
"Dan Bishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It's so frustrating seeing all those job postings that require a > "mimimum 10 years experience". I think it shows a huge gulf of communication between the person writing the job requirements and the person who actually asked for the position to be filled. If someone has been doing the same thing for 10 years, they're not the sort of programmer I want coming anywhere *near* the systems I depend on. If, instead, they've been doing lots of different things for 10 years, I'm not a bit interested that one of them happened to be consistent throughout that period. -- \ "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are | `\ fools, and those who dare not, are slaves." -- "Lord" George | _o__)Gordon Noel Byron | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
walterbyrd wrote: > My research of this subject was very limited, just looked at the major > job boards, and compared demand for python developers to demand for > other languages, such as java, c++, visual basic, or php. An > unscientific test, I realize. But, it's not easy to get good data on > such a subject: everybody has an agenda, it seems. > > I don't count jobs where python is an "also ran" skill. For example, > sys-admin jobs where python is listed with a dozen other skills. I think you are getting skewed results. The companies I have been involved in that use Python tend to be after top-tier (or as close as they can afford) programmers rather than the sort of applications you get by the truckload if you advertise a job on 'the major job boards'. You get a much better quality of applicant if you target niche boards (such as http://www.python.org/community/jobs/), use word of mouth, or posts to highly targeted mailing lists like the ones run by your companies local users groups or direct contact with visible community members with the skillsets you need. The results get further skewed on 'the major job boards' when one real job results in 100 job notices from 100 different recruitment companies. My personal experience is that there is a shortage of good Python programmers. In Melbourne, Australia for example there is a continual need for about 2 more - one Python shop there just hires clueful developers and makes their first task 'learn Python'. We generally have a few positions open at any particular moment too - http://www.ubuntu.com/employment (but we are picky - it is hard to hand hold when the hand is several time zones away). On a slight tangent, one of the appealing things about Python (and other 'non-mainstream' languages) in the past has been that the people who knew Python also tended to be the people you wanted to employ - they generally had experience in other languages but moved onto something they perceived as 'better' either at work or home. It indicated a level of care and pride about their profession rather than someone who just treated cutting code as a day job. That might be changing now that Python is becoming more visible on peoples radar. -- Stuart Bishop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stuartbishop.net/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
"Steven D'Aprano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wrote: > On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Anthony Baxter wrote: > > > This seems to be a very, very silly original post. I know of plenty of > > people who make a living programming Python. It's been the vast > > majority of the programming (for money) I've done in the last ten > > years, and there's countless other people I know here in Melbourne in > > the same position. > > Countless people? Are we talking aleph-zero people (countable infinity) or > one of the uncountable infinities? > > > -- > Steven. Oh dont be so pedantic - countless - without count - probably just means that nobody has bothered to count them... - Hendrik > > -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Stuart Bishop wrote: > My personal experience is that there is a shortage of good Python > programmers. In Melbourne, Australia for example there is a continual need > for about 2 more - one Python shop there just hires clueful developers and > makes their first task 'learn Python'. We generally have a few positions > open at any particular moment too - http://www.ubuntu.com/employment (but we > are picky - it is hard to hand hold when the hand is several time zones away). It's much easier to learn Python than it is to learn good general software development skills, so I think that's a good approach. My room mate here at work didn't know any Python programming before he came, but he was fluent pretty soon. Like me, he's starting to make stupid mistakes in C++, such as forgetting trailing ; after each line. :) We are fairly picky here when we employ people, but while we appreciate that they already know Python, we don't see it as a major issue. It's quick and easy to learn. Mentioning Python in job ads is maybe more a way to attract people who take clever initiatives. > On a slight tangent, one of the appealing things about Python (and other > 'non-mainstream' languages) in the past has been that the people who knew > Python also tended to be the people you wanted to employ - they generally > had experience in other languages but moved onto something they perceived as > 'better' either at work or home. It indicated a level of care and pride > about their profession rather than someone who just treated cutting code as > a day job. That depends if you are an employer who wants to lead a team of skilled professionals or if you prefer a herd of sheep that you lead around with a stick. So, as someone who want to be employed, you influence what kinds of job you tend to get with what you learn. Do you prefer a job where you are just expected to do exactly what you are told, or are you eager to take initiatives and change your work place to something better? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
"Hendrik van Rooyen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
[...]
> Oh dont be so pedantic - countless - without count - probably
> just means that nobody has bothered to count them...
Without being particularly pedantic: no, it doesn't. It means "too
many to count". Though I would have taken Anthony's usage ("there's
countless other people I know...") less than literally.
--
rzed
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Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
I'll attest that we have a shortage of Python developers in the Dallas area; in the DFW Python user group (dfwpython.org) we occasionally encounter local employers who have trouble finding local Python developers who can take on new work. Most of the group members are already employed, so the standard answer to the employer is to recommend hiring experienced developers and train them in Python. Unfortunately we've seen a few cases where the employer decided to choose a different technology due to the lack of available Python talent. Hopefully this will abate as more programmers understand this problem and become attracted to Python. BTW, are some Python-specific job sites: http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.jobs http://python.jobmart.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:20:11 +1000, Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The >dictionary definition of countless is "too many to count" (Pocket Oxford), >which I suppose could be 11 for some people if they didn't take their >shoes and socks off. Mathematically, any finite integer is able to be >counted, so "countless" is equivalent to "infinite in number". While we're being pedantic, there are many more ways to be "too many to count" than infinity. Counting is a physical process that depends as much on the counter and circumstances of counting as on the number to be counted. DaveM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Magnus Lycka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... > stuff in the world, so my standard extrapolation technique would yield > 3 python programmers globally. I think this estimate is low, based on three piece of data I know (but, sorry, are all confidential;-) and thus one I can infer: -- I know how many copies of "Python in a Nutshell" Google buys; -- I know how many Python programmers work at Google; -- I know how many copies the Nutshell sells worldwide; Assuming the willingness to buy "Python in a Nutshell" is constant across the population of Python programmers (and I don't believe my working there influences anything -- Google had the Nutshell in the standard set of books engineers use, well before I got hired there), I can project a worldwide number of Python programmers that's several times higher than that. Or perhaps not, depending on the definition of "Python programmer". Most of Google's software developers who know Python also know one or more (generally several) of C, C++, Java, SQL, HTML, Javascript, &c, though they may or may not use any one or more of them often on the job; many Googlers who program only in Python do not _just_ program -- they are also working on other jobs besides software development (hardware design, testing, management, administrative assistance, system administration, network operations, whatever...). Hey, by a sufficiently strict definition _I_ don't count as a "Python programmer", since I also do substantial amounts of management, not to mention a little bit of C++, some C, SQL, HTML, and so forth...;-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Blair P. Houghton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I happen to know that Google does most of its admin scripting in > Python. It can't be a small job, running a few hundred thousand > servers worldwide and keeping them all up to date for system and > security. It's not a small job (as uber-tech-lead for Production Systems, I should know;-), and "admin scripting" doesn't even _begin_ to exhaust the array of tasks for which Google uses Python;-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
Alex Martelli wrote: > Magnus Lycka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... > > stuff in the world, so my standard extrapolation technique would yield > > 3 python programmers globally. > > I think this estimate is low, based on three piece of data I know (but, > sorry, are all confidential;-) and thus one I can infer: > -- I know how many copies of "Python in a Nutshell" Google buys; > -- I know how many Python programmers work at Google; > -- I know how many copies the Nutshell sells worldwide; > > Assuming the willingness to buy "Python in a Nutshell" is constant > across the population of Python programmers (and I don't believe my > working there influences anything -- Google had the Nutshell in the > standard set of books engineers use, well before I got hired there), I > can project a worldwide number of Python programmers that's several > times higher than that. > > Or perhaps not, depending on the definition of "Python programmer". > Most of Google's software developers who know Python also know one or > more (generally several) of C, C++, Java, SQL, HTML, Javascript, &c, > though they may or may not use any one or more of them often on the job; > many Googlers who program only in Python do not _just_ program -- they > are also working on other jobs besides software development (hardware > design, testing, management, administrative assistance, system > administration, network operations, whatever...). Hey, by a > sufficiently strict definition _I_ don't count as a "Python programmer", > since I also do substantial amounts of management, not to mention a > little bit of C++, some C, SQL, HTML, and so forth...;-) > > > Alex A few points: Personnally, I've never heard_of a Python_only programmer... When I chose Python for web dev programming class, no one knew why I was using a (second_rate) handy-crafty language, instead of ASP-PHP_whateverP language that was in the mainstream. Because of academic freedom, I was allowed to show it as a *different* type of language. Most mainstream job boards here in Montreal had never posted ANY (not that I could find) jobs (5 years ago) NONE so it went that it Python would just be a *educational* add-on for the students. Since then, feedback from students in industry is that it is being used more and more, day in and day out by top world class shops (games, effects, etc). BUT It's still Java, C++, PHP, SQL that have the marketing demands... Finally, also (personnal interpretation) because of the BUG2000 Scare, shops had boosted the staff with just about anyone they could get there hands on prior to this event, with the son, mom and great-grand uncle who could do a database of contacts in MSAccess (and this is NOT demeaning MSAccess), so now companies are NOT posting for the jobs in this *language* oriented fashion outside the mainstream (Java, C++,etc). Finally, most programmers and programmers-wannabe-students just don't hope to be top-tier in their trade - They just want a job, so they can marry, play, pay rent, go home - Sorry, most are not interested in technology, and since most managers I have seen, in a 15 year career in dev before taking a teaching job, don't CARE about technology, you have a perfect match for Java, PHP advertisement... My two cents, rooting for Python (and Ruby and Lua and OCaml, and ... you get the point!) Jean-Marc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since then, feedback from students in industry is that it is being used
> more and more, day in and day out by top world class shops (games,
> effects, etc). BUT It's still Java, C++, PHP, SQL that have the
> marketing demands...
Absolutely. But note that SQL (like Javascript, but even more so) DOES
have an absolutely good, perfectly strong reason to exist within the
compass of competence of any strong programmer, no matter what
language[s] he or she uses for _general-purpose_ stuff. Even when using
a higher-level abstraction (an ORM rather than SQL, or one of those
doodads which compile some Java code into Javascript so it runs in the
user's browser), which may or may not be a good choice for a certain
specific use, you really still need good understanding and practice of
the underlying SQL (or Javascript) in order to get solid results, good
performance, debugging of any problem that may arise, etc etc
("Spolsky's Law of Leaky Abstractions" applies strongly here;-).
Alex
--
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QOTW (was Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Fredrik Lundh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >well, if you're only watching mtv, it's easy to think that there's >obviously not much demand for country singers, blues musicians, British >hard rock bands, or melodic death metal acts. Any other votes for this being QOTW? -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" -- www.nancybuttons.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: QOTW (was Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?)
Aahz enlightened us with: > Fredrik Lundh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>well, if you're only watching mtv, it's easy to think that there's >>obviously not much demand for country singers, blues musicians, >>British hard rock bands, or melodic death metal acts. > > Any other votes for this being QOTW? +1 here Sybren -- Sybren Stüvel Stüvel IT - http://www.stuvel.eu/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: QOTW (was Re: does anybody earn a living programming in python?)
2006/9/26, Sybren Stuvel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Aahz enlightened us with: > > Fredrik Lundh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>well, if you're only watching mtv, it's easy to think that there's > >>obviously not much demand for country singers, blues musicians, > >>British hard rock bands, or melodic death metal acts. > > > > Any other votes for this being QOTW? > > +1 here > +1 here, too -- Felipe. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
