Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
In message 4ca94af8$0$1637$742ec...@news.sonic.net, John Nagle wrote: On 10/3/2010 5:40 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: In message4ca8c9b6$0$1598$742ec...@news.sonic.net, John Nagle wrote: (Personally, I like MySQL, but I fear Oracle will mess it up.) Doesn’t matter whether Oracle messes up the brand called “MySQL” or not. With Free Software, it’s the software that matters, not the brand. And the software continues to be developed by other sources. Have you tried the MySQL Windows client since Oracle took it over? Lots more features, crashes with C library linkage errors. Precisely my point. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
In message slrniafbbr.2iq9.usenet-nos...@guild.seebs.net, Seebs wrote: sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. Have you learnt how to be selective in your downloads yet? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
* Ravi: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... But if you see SQLite website they clearly say at http://sqlite.org/omitted.html that only very few of the SQL is not implemented. I think that page refers to SQL92, not some more recent version of the standard. There are also issues caused by SQLite's approach to typing, e.g. SELECT 1 = '1'; returns a false value, where it would return true on other systems. SQLite is a fine piece of software, but its SQL dialect has many quirks. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 2010-10-03, Lawrence D'Oliveiro l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand wrote: In message slrniafbbr.2iq9.usenet-nos...@guild.seebs.net, Seebs wrote: sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. Have you learnt how to be selective in your downloads yet? Sadly, as a side-effect of my day job, I am often obliged to work with arbitrary software that someone somewhere specified as part of a requirement. It is stunning how often you can guess which of two packages will be the source of a bug just by seeing which one hurts more to look at. -s -- Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net http://www.seebs.net/log/ -- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) -- get educated! I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:06:12 -0700, Ravi wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... But if you see SQLite website they clearly say at http://sqlite.org/omitted.html that only very few of the SQL is not implemented. I think docs should clarify on that. Many users might be scared of using SQLite just because of this. I suspect that it's referring to the fact that SQLite is dynamically typed. IOW, the problem isn't with features being omitted, but with features not working how you would expect them to. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 10/2/2010 3:06 PM, Seebs wrote: I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. That's a bit much. What SQLite leaves out is the heavy machinery needed for a active production database being used by many processes. If you want to store a modest amount of data for one process, perhaps with a rare conflict when two programs hit the same table, SQLite is fine. But SQLite doesn't scale. That's why it's lite. Some of SQLite's good features, are achieved by rather brutal means. For example, SQLite supports atomic transactions. That's implemented by locking up all tables involved for the duration of the entire transaction. This is fine for low-volume updates, and a killer for high-volume systems. SQLite doesn't have a serious query optimizer, or partial table locking, or concurrent transaction handling, or replication. In other words, use SQLite in your desktop app to manage its data or configuration parameters. Use MySQL or Postgres for your web site. (Personally, I like MySQL, but I fear Oracle will mess it up.) John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On Oct 3, 2010, at 2:21 PM, John Nagle wrote: On 10/2/2010 3:06 PM, Seebs wrote: I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. That's a bit much. What SQLite leaves out is the heavy machinery needed for a active production database being used by many processes. If you want to store a modest amount of data for one process, perhaps with a rare conflict when two programs hit the same table, SQLite is fine. But SQLite doesn't scale. That's why it's lite. Some of SQLite's good features, are achieved by rather brutal means. For example, SQLite supports atomic transactions. That's implemented by locking up all tables involved for the duration of the entire transaction. This is fine for low-volume updates, and a killer for high-volume systems. SQLite doesn't have a serious query optimizer, or partial table locking, or concurrent transaction handling, or replication. In other words, use SQLite in your desktop app to manage its data or configuration parameters. Use MySQL or Postgres for your web site. Granted, but we're talking about whether or not SQLite complies with the SQL standard, not whether it's suitable for an e-commerce Web site or running the NYSE. Cheers Philip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
In message slrniah7cc.8f0.usenet-nos...@guild.seebs.net, Seebs wrote: It is stunning how often you can guess which of two packages will be the source of a bug just by seeing which one hurts more to look at. QOTW. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
In message 4ca8c9b6$0$1598$742ec...@news.sonic.net, John Nagle wrote: (Personally, I like MySQL, but I fear Oracle will mess it up.) Doesn’t matter whether Oracle messes up the brand called “MySQL” or not. With Free Software, it’s the software that matters, not the brand. And the software continues to be developed by other sources. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 10/3/2010 5:40 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: In message4ca8c9b6$0$1598$742ec...@news.sonic.net, John Nagle wrote: (Personally, I like MySQL, but I fear Oracle will mess it up.) Doesn’t matter whether Oracle messes up the brand called “MySQL” or not. With Free Software, it’s the software that matters, not the brand. And the software continues to be developed by other sources. Have you tried the MySQL Windows client since Oracle took it over? Lots more features, crashes with C library linkage errors. John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
SQLite is quite SQL compliant
The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... But if you see SQLite website they clearly say at http://sqlite.org/omitted.html that only very few of the SQL is not implemented. I think docs should clarify on that. Many users might be scared of using SQLite just because of this. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
Ravi wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ... allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... But if you see SQLite website they clearly say at http://sqlite.org/omitted.html that only very few of the SQL is not implemented. I think docs should clarify on that. Many users might be scared of using SQLite just because of this. SQLite is very widely used in many different contexts You might check the related wikipedia article and scroll down to the Adoption section for a brief list of some well-known users http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sqlite -- Stanley C. Kitching Human Being Phoenix, Arizona -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 2010-10-02, Ravi ra.ravi@gmail.com wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... But if you see SQLite website they clearly say at http://sqlite.org/omitted.html that only very few of the SQL is not implemented. I think docs should clarify on that. Many users might be scared of using SQLite just because of this. I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. -s -- Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net http://www.seebs.net/log/ -- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) -- get educated! I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 10/02/10 17:06, Seebs wrote: On 2010-10-02, Ravira.ravi@gmail.com wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. In my experience, it might be better phrased as non-standard (but more adherent to standards than Microsoft SQL-Server or MySQL) variant of SQL. :-) I mean really...does *any* RDBMS actually adhere to ANSI SQL? -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On 02 Oct 2010 22:06:58 GMT Seebs usenet-nos...@seebs.net wrote: I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. If you are looking for better wording I suggest ...an almost complete implementation... instead. Sounds more positive. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/| and a sheep voting on +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082)(eNTP) | what's for dinner. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On Oct 2, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Tim Chase wrote: On 10/02/10 17:06, Seebs wrote: On 2010-10-02, Ravira.ravi@gmail.com wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. In my experience, it might be better phrased as non-standard (but more adherent to standards than Microsoft SQL-Server or MySQL) variant of SQL. :-) I mean really...does *any* RDBMS actually adhere to ANSI SQL? That's what I was thinking. Most of them achieve 90 - 98% and implement their own extra 10% of non-standard extensions. One just has to hope that the bits one needs are not in the missing 2-10%. I agree with the OP that the Python doc description of SQLite, while factually correct, seems a bit severe. Cheers Philip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLite is quite SQL compliant
On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:13:11 -0400 Philip Semanchuk phi...@semanchuk.com wrote: On Oct 2, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Tim Chase wrote: On 10/02/10 17:06, Seebs wrote: On 2010-10-02, Ravira.ravi@gmail.com wrote: The documentation of the sqlite module at http://docs.python.org/library/sqlite3.html says: ...allows accessing the database using a nonstandard variant of the SQL... I would agree that the word nonstandard seems to be a little strong and discouraging. sqlite is a source of joy, a small bright point of decent and functional software in a world full of misbehaving crap. While it does omit a few bits of SQL functionality, I'd call it perhaps a slightly incomplete implementation rather than a nonstandard variant. In my experience, it might be better phrased as non-standard (but more adherent to standards than Microsoft SQL-Server or MySQL) variant of SQL. :-) I mean really...does *any* RDBMS actually adhere to ANSI SQL? That's what I was thinking. Most of them achieve 90 - 98% and implement their own extra 10% of non-standard extensions. One just has to hope that the bits one needs are not in the missing 2-10%. I agree with the OP that the Python doc description of SQLite, while factually correct, seems a bit severe. You can open an issue at http://bugs.python.org Regards Antoine. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
