Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
Paul Rubin wrote: Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You can read about it in Philip Eby's excellent PEP at http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html I looked at this and I have the impression that it tries to do something worthwhile, but I can't tell precisely what. The rationale and goals section explains good reasons why it doesn't do various certain things. What's not explained is what DOES it do. The only thing I can tell is that it connects to an abstracted web server, and builds up what looks like traditional CGI variables from the incoming requests. It's really meant for web framework developers (as opposed to web application developers, who use web frameworks). Of course it's a fuzzy line, and people cross back and forth, especially since most all of it is open source. So basically it is what you were thinking -- it's a way to connect a web server to a web application, for any server or application, including current servers and applications (not just ones that are developed in the future). It can be a bit more interesting when you delve into middleware, which are programs that modify the request before handing it off to another application. But while that opens up interesting possibilities (I've used that technique a fair amount in WSGIKit: http://svn.colorstudy.com/trunk/WSGIKit/ ), but it's not incredibly magical. Mostly, it's the first forward movement we've had in a very long time, even if the movement isn't huge. It provides a foundation for further standardization. WSGI compliance also has some other potential benefits, like encouraging environment decoupling, and making mock requests easier to produce and responses easier to consume. But those are somewhat vague side effects. -- Ian Bicking / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / http://blog.ianbicking.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
Steve Holden wrote: More ways than you can shake a stick at, but nowadays you should consider using WSGI if you want your code to be portable across many frameworks. The Web SIG worked very hard last year on defining this gateway interface, with the intention that it should become widely available, and implementations are available now on environments as diverse as mod_python and CherryPy. You can read about it in Philip Eby's excellent PEP at http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html WSGI isn't really something an application programmer can use; or at least it's not likely to be a very satisfying experience if they do. I'm optimistic that at some point most of the actively developed Python web frameworks we have now will be ported to WSGI. Ultimately, I think WSGI should be something a more casual Python web programmer wouldn't even realize exists. -- Ian Bicking / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / http://blog.ianbicking.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:11:49 +0800, worzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? Check CherryPy - www.cherrypy.org. It's clean, light, and best of all, includes its own webserver. You can publish a small site with almost *no* configuration effort, and you have to write *very little code*. It's also natively multi-threaded, and supports advanced stuff such as gzip compression on the fly and XMLRPC. Disclaimer: I'm a contributor to CherryPy, so I'm biased. But I had evaluated both Karirgel and Quixote before settling up on CherryPy, and I see no reason to change. -- Carlos Ribeiro Consultoria em Projetos blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
worzel wrote: What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? Spyce ( http://spyce.sf.net ) is what you're looking for. I was looking exactly for the same thing as you are - a PHP workalike - and tried around half a dozen or so alternatives before I settled upon Spyce as the best one. If Spyce's [[ and ]] delimiters are not to your liking, you can actually switch to using % and % without any problem. Spyce also handles the Python indent issue quite nicely and elegantly, imo, while you can use the free and open source SciTE text editor to separately syntax highlight Spyce source code + Javascript + HTML very nicely (config file tweaking required). what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? Python can be a full (and superior) replacement for PHP. The only caveat would be third party hosting support. The following post by on the Spyce mailing list (by Andy of Neotitans.com web development) explains why: One major roadblock to Spyce and other Python server side technologies seeing acceptance on the scale of PHP is the fact that mod_python deployment on 3rd party shared hosting solutions is more complex and involved than mod_php. Apparently, security considerations mean that each mod_python user will need to get their own instance of an Apache server acting as a proxy behind a central instance of an Apache server (which is what's responsible for accepting requests at the shared server's http port). A per-shared user Spyce proxy server approach would likely be more economical (of server resources) and more easily set up than multiple mod_python-enabled Apache server instances. If your hosting solution will permit you to have your own long-running processes (afaik, most won't :-( ), and if they are willing make the necessary httpd.conf mods to pass Spyce page requests over to your own instance of the Spyce proxy server or their .htaccess setup allows you to do that yourself, then you're all set. I'm also happy to report that Spyce CGI works great on any hosting solution that supports CGI and has Python installed. This means that virtually all Linux-based hosting solutions (including those ultra-cheap shared server ones) will support Spyce CGI. It would seem that FastCGI support is probably the hardest to come by. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You can read about it in Philip Eby's excellent PEP at http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html I looked at this and I have the impression that it tries to do something worthwhile, but I can't tell precisely what. The rationale and goals section explains good reasons why it doesn't do various certain things. What's not explained is what DOES it do. The only thing I can tell is that it connects to an abstracted web server, and builds up what looks like traditional CGI variables from the incoming requests. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
The best way to do web apps with Python?
What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? TIA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
worzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. Basically, yes, there are various Python template systems similar to PHP. I won't name them because other people more knowledgeable than me will do a better job than I could. I'll say that Python is a better language than PHP, but getting a basic dynamic web app running in PHP is much simpler than it is in Python. Python's advantage starts to shine once the app gets complicated. While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? TIA It's sort of a difficult trade-off and it depends a lot on your application, who will develop and maintain it, who will use it, where it will be deployed, etc. Lots more people know PHP than Python, PHP is easier to get started with, and cheap PHP hosting is available all over. So if you're building some simple app that you want to distribute widely and run everywhere, PHP is attractive. If you're building a complex system which you'll run on a server that you have more control over, and you'll have relatively high-powered developers on hand to maintain the code, Python beats PHP. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
Dnia Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:11:49 +0800, worzel napisa(a): What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Hmm. :) I prefer http://cherrypy.org + http://cheetahtemplate.org/. Very easy to learn and develop, yet powerfull. Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? Check http://spyce.sourceforge.net or http://nick.borko.org/pse -- JZ ICQ: 6712522 http://zabiello.om -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEAD META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 META content=MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523 name=GENERATOR STYLE/STYLE /HEAD BODY DIVFONT face=Arial size=2What is /FONTFONT face=Arial size Just FYI -- the post you posted was in HTML -- you might want to avoid this in the future. 99% of all posts to news groups are in text, not html. Html is hard for everyone to read with normal news readers and not usually of any extra value. It's also more of a security risk to read it -- because there is more potential for exploitation. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it if you didn't know. Take care, Rob -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
worzel wrote: What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. More ways than you can shake a stick at, but nowadays you should consider using WSGI if you want your code to be portable across many frameworks. The Web SIG worked very hard last year on defining this gateway interface, with the intention that it should become widely available, and implementations are available now on environments as diverse as mod_python and CherryPy. You can read about it in Philip Eby's excellent PEP at http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? Python is a real programming language, whereas PHP was originally intended as a simple way of scripting web content. Since then it has grown to encompass many of the same features as Python, but since they were retrofitted rather than designed in they are sometimes kind of clunky (as, IMHO, is Perl, although in a different way). But there's a lot of good work been done in both PHP and Perl, and I'd usually recommend using existing functionality in either language over a just-for-the-sake-of-it rewrite in Python. But that could just be because I don't like re-inventing wheels. regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
Holy Moly - there's quite a few choices out there! I like the look of Karrigel for my immediate needs. Looking forward to the day there is a more 'j2ee' like standard in place for Python - looks like this is in the works. Thanks for all the feedback guys. worzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? TIA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: The best way to do web apps with Python?
worzel wrote: What is the best way to web developemnt with Python? Is there anything close to PHP style in-page script placement that can create and use other Python objects? I am not really interested in Zope (I believe that is more a CMS than anything else?) I am also looking for something a little more structured than a series of CGI Scripts. While on the topic - what is the expectataion of Python for this kind of stuff? Would one use Python for certain other things but turn to PHP for web apps - or would one use their Python skills in place of PHP? TIA You may want to look here for some thoughts on the matter: http://pyre.third-bit.com/pyweb/index.html I lean towards Quixote and/or CherryPy, with ZODB as the storage. Both are conceptually similar (I'm comparing v2 of both), but I favor Quixote just slightly more, mostly for Quixote's better form handling. Cheetah is a very nice templating package, but in Quixote I just use its own PTL, since it's built-in. If you wanted to stick with PHP for some reason, Drupal is a very nicely designed framework (or CivicSpace, which is developed in parallel with Drupal, with a number of added-on features). Quixote: http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/ CherryPy: http://www.cherrypy.org/ ZODB: http://zope.org/Wikis/ZODB/FrontPage Cheetah: http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/ Drupal: http://www.drupal.org/ CivicSpace: http://www.civicspacelabs.org/ jf -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
