Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2018-02-10 16:40, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Chris Green  wrote:

Michael F. Stemper  wrote:

On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:



  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home


Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
"icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.


You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
(which you set up your router to allow in).


Exactly. The easiest way is to set up port forwarding in your cable
modem. Any device worth using should have at least SOME measure of
port forwarding. Of course, if your ISP offers an IPv6 netblock, it's
easy.



Ah, the light dawns over Marblehead! When I set up my router, I saw
the "port forwarding" page, but had no idea what it was for. Thanks for
the explanation.

I will now cease off-topic posting.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home


Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
"icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Chris Green  wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper  wrote:
>> On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:
>>
>> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
>> >
>> >  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
>> >  my home system, read news locally using that.
>> >
>> >  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
>>
>> Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
>> the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
>> "icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.
>>
> You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
> (which you set up your router to allow in).
>

Exactly. The easiest way is to set up port forwarding in your cable
modem. Any device worth using should have at least SOME measure of
port forwarding. Of course, if your ISP offers an IPv6 netblock, it's
easy.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google

[alister via Python-list]

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:12:54 +1200, mm0fmf wrote:

> On 09/02/2018 21:05, codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
>>> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich
 wrote:
> [snip]
>  Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the
>  loss
> of the google groupies.

 I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following
 combination of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was
 another way to do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots
 of spam.

- I read it from both home and work.

- I can't install any additional software at work.

- There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

- GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
  between work and home through my Google account.

- When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
  do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.

>>> Alternative approach, what I do:-
>>>
>>>  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
>>>  my home system, read news locally using that.
>>>
>>>  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
>>>  and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
>>>  even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
>>>  app from your wenb browser.
>>>
>>> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris Green â·
>>
>> ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even
>> email from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote
>> connectivity tools are blocked.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Igor.
>>
> If they take such restrictive practices then maybe should consider
> *just* doing your job when at work and leave the browsing to your own
> time?


I would also suggest that you consider the above statement ha snot been 
made out of malice but is trying to protect you.  if the restrictions are 
as strict as you say and you get seen you will probably loose your job.



-- 
Xerox does it again and again and again and ...
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Michael F. Stemper  wrote:
> On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:
> 
> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
> > 
> >  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >  my home system, read news locally using that.
> > 
> >  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> 
> Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
> the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
> "icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.
> 
You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
(which you set up your router to allow in).

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[mm0fmf]

On 09/02/2018 21:05, codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
 Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.


I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

   - I read it from both home and work.

   - I can't install any additional software at work.

   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
 between work and home through my Google account.

   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
 do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
 and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
 even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
 app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·


ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

Regards,
Igor.

If they take such restrictive practices then maybe should consider 
*just* doing your job when at work and leave the browsing to your own time?


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 09 February 2018 23:44:54 Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 17:30:57 -0800, codewizard wrote:
> > Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced,
> > if the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.
>
> There is *absolutely nothing* we can do about that. Google doesn't
> listen to us, and the suggestion that we can influence them because
> Guido van Rossum used to work for them many years ago is naive.
>
> We cannot influence Google's decision about the newsgroup; we cannot
> convince your boss to allow access to the newsgroup at work; and
> apparently we can't convince you that just because you will no longer
> be able to access it from work, doesn't mean you have to stop
> accessing it from home. Oh well, such is life.
>
> (Ironically, the vast bulk of spam on the newsgroup comes from Google
> Groups itself, so if this does happen, it will probably be a nett win
> for the community, even if it does negatively impact some
> individuals.)
>
> > Probably
> > not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others
> > are in the same situation...
>
> There's nothing we can do about it, so there is no point wasting time
> wondering.
>
The list I see here is much much cleaner, as anything from google groups 
has been diverted to /dev/null for a year or more. We don't need the 
blather that comes out of googlegroups. If google is unhappy and cuts it 
off, methinks they should run a broom through their own real estate 
first.
>
> --
> Steve



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 17:30:57 -0800, codewizard wrote:

> Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced, if
> the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.

There is *absolutely nothing* we can do about that. Google doesn't listen 
to us, and the suggestion that we can influence them because Guido van 
Rossum used to work for them many years ago is naive.

We cannot influence Google's decision about the newsgroup; we cannot 
convince your boss to allow access to the newsgroup at work; and 
apparently we can't convince you that just because you will no longer be 
able to access it from work, doesn't mean you have to stop accessing it 
from home. Oh well, such is life.

(Ironically, the vast bulk of spam on the newsgroup comes from Google 
Groups itself, so if this does happen, it will probably be a nett win for 
the community, even if it does negatively impact some individuals.)


> Probably
> not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others are
> in the same situation...

There's nothing we can do about it, so there is no point wasting time 
wondering.


-- 
Steve

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 6:45:18 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 2/9/18 6:19 PM, codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> >> On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
>  On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> > codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich 
> >> wrote:
> >>> [snip]
> >>>   Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the 
> >>> loss
> >>> of the google groupies.
> >> I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> >> of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> >> do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> >>
> >> - I read it from both home and work.
> >>
> >> - I can't install any additional software at work.
> >>
> >> - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> >>
> >> - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> >>   between work and home through my Google account.
> >>
> >> - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> >>   do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> >>
> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
> >
> >   Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >   my home system, read news locally using that.
> >
> >   Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> >   and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> >   even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> >   app from your wenb browser.
> >
> > The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Green
> > ·
>  ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even 
>  email
>  from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
>  tools are blocked.
> >>> ... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
> >>> have a Layer Eight conflict here.
> >>>
> >>> ChrisA
> >> If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal
> >> mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.
> >>
> >> If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major
> >> disconnect in the rules.
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Richard Damon
> > Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
> > I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Igor.
> 
> My guess then is that your access to google groups is also against your 
> companies policies, they just haven't put an enforcement in their 
> firewalls because it is too obscure for the IT department to have 
> thought of.
> 
> Based on the sort of broad blocking they are doing, I am a bit surprised 
> they seem to be black listing rather than white listing the web.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon

Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced,
if the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.
Probably not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others 
are in the same situation...

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Richard Damon]

On 2/9/18 6:19 PM, codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:

On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
  Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

- I read it from both home and work.

- I can't install any additional software at work.

- There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

- GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
  between work and home through my Google account.

- When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
  do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
  my home system, read news locally using that.

  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
  and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
  even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
  app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA

If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal
mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.

If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major
disconnect in the rules.

--
Richard Damon

Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.

Regards,
Igor.


My guess then is that your access to google groups is also against your 
companies policies, they just haven't put an enforcement in their 
firewalls because it is too obscure for the IT department to have 
thought of.


Based on the sort of broad blocking they are doing, I am a bit surprised 
they seem to be black listing rather than white listing the web.


--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> >>> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
>  On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich 
>  wrote:
> > [snip]
> >  Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the 
> > loss
> > of the google groupies.
>  I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
>  of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
>  do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> 
> - I read it from both home and work.
> 
> - I can't install any additional software at work.
> 
> - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> 
> - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
>   between work and home through my Google account.
> 
> - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
>   do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> 
> >>> Alternative approach, what I do:-
> >>>
> >>>  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >>>  my home system, read news locally using that.
> >>>
> >>>  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> >>>  and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> >>>  even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> >>>  app from your wenb browser.
> >>>
> >>> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Chris Green
> >>> ·
> >> ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
> >> from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
> >> tools are blocked.
> > ... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
> > have a Layer Eight conflict here.
> >
> > ChrisA
> 
> If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal 
> mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.
> 
> If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major 
> disconnect in the rules.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon

Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Richard Damon]

On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
 Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

   - I read it from both home and work.

   - I can't install any additional software at work.

   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
 between work and home through my Google account.

   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
 do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
 and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
 even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
 app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA


If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal 
mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.


If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major 
disconnect in the rules.


--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
>> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> > > [snip]
>> > > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
>> > > of the google groupies.
>> >
>> > I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
>> > of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
>> > do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
>> >
>> >   - I read it from both home and work.
>> >
>> >   - I can't install any additional software at work.
>> >
>> >   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
>> >
>> >   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
>> > between work and home through my Google account.
>> >
>> >   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
>> > do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
>> >
>> Alternative approach, what I do:-
>>
>> Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
>> my home system, read news locally using that.
>>
>> Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
>> and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
>> even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
>> app from your wenb browser.
>>
>> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
>>
>> --
>> Chris Green
>> ·
>
> ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
> from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
> tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> > > of the google groupies.
> > 
> > I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> > of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> > do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> > 
> >   - I read it from both home and work.
> > 
> >   - I can't install any additional software at work.
> > 
> >   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> > 
> >   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> > between work and home through my Google account.
> > 
> >   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> > do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> > 
> Alternative approach, what I do:-
> 
> Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> my home system, read news locally using that.
> 
> Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> app from your wenb browser.
> 
> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Green
> ·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> > of the google groupies.
> 
> I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> 
>   - I read it from both home and work.
> 
>   - I can't install any additional software at work.
> 
>   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> 
>   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> between work and home through my Google account.
> 
>   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> 
Alternative approach, what I do:-

Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
my home system, read news locally using that.

Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> [snip]
> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

  - I read it from both home and work.

  - I can't install any additional software at work.

  - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

  - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
between work and home through my Google account.

  - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.

Regards,
Igor.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 15:37, Chris Green wrote:

Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:


Mark Lawrence  wrote:

[...]

Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've


Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.


That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I
checked.


He said ".(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird"

That seems to imply (to me anyway) that one needs a mail client to
read from news.gmane.org and that's just plain wrong.

While *some* mail clients are also NNTP readers it's by no means
universally true.



Just to head this off at the pass: for the purpose of discussion, could 
we assume that this particular point doesn't really matter, please?


Thanks

TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:
> 
> > Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> [...]
> >> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
> >> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've
> > 
> > Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.
> 
> That's what he said :-)
> 
> Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I 
> checked.
> 
He said ".(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird"

That seems to imply (to me anyway) that one needs a mail client to
read from news.gmane.org and that's just plain wrong.

While *some* mail clients are also NNTP readers it's by no means
universally true.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Jim]

On 02/09/2018 08:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:


Mark Lawrence  wrote:

[...]

Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've


Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.


That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I
checked.





It does, using it for this reply.

Regards,  Jim

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:

> Mark Lawrence  wrote:
[...]
>> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
>> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've
> 
> Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.

That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I 
checked.



-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 09/02/18 11:23, John Ladasky wrote:
> > 
> > I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to 
> > navigate. 
> In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome. Weren't the archives 
> broken into 30-day blocks? 
> > 
> > I just tried GMane again two minutes ago. I can't confirm my recollections, 
> but right now what I'm seeing is worse. If you follow this link right now... 
> (http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this: 
> > 
> > "Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"
> > 
> > And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" 
> at the bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... 
> and the top blog post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016! 
> 
> > 
> > I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.
> > 
> 
> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any 
> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've 

Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.

> access to hundreds of Python lists and thousands of other technical 
> lists.  I find the search facilities perfectly adequate.
> 

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Wolfgang Maier]

On 02/09/2018 12:23 PM, John Ladasky wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:50:16 AM UTC-8, Tim Golden wrote:

Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list


I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the top blog 
post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.



You are certainly right about the gmane *Web Interface*. However, you 
can access their newsgroup interface through any newsgroup reader 
(including e.g. Thunderbird) and that's a really nice way of following 
things.


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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Mark Lawrence]

On 09/02/18 11:23, John Ladasky wrote:


I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the top blog 
post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.



Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any 
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've 
access to hundreds of Python lists and thousands of other technical 
lists.  I find the search facilities perfectly adequate.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[John Ladasky]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:50:16 AM UTC-8, Tim Golden wrote:

[snip and rearrange]

> So dropping GG altogether would probably not add very much, as we're 
> generally blocking undesirable posts from there and we'd rather not 
> block genuine posts which happen to be made through the relative 
> convenience of the GG interface.

I thank you for this point of view.  I am using Google Groups.  I migrated here 
back in the days of Deja News.  I don't like having mailing lists streaming 
into my inbox, having to hunt around to unsubscribe.  I want a newsreader with 
integrated posting capability which is separate from my inbox.


> Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list

I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the 
top blog post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.

One final thought: although Google is not the Python community, there are a lot 
of shared interests and overlap.  Google sponsored and employed Guido for 
years.  The most popular Tensorflow API is the Python API.  

Can't this relationship be used to ask Google to get more serious about the 
spam problem that originates in their domain, but that people in this 
discussion think they will hold against comp.lang.python?  Alternately, how 
about giving Google Groups users killfiles and/or the same Spambayes filter 
tools that are already used on GMail inboxes?
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 05:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:40:57 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:


I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out
the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less
than useless.


Who is it that you think should "drop" Google Groups?


If Mark means: the mailing list gateway should automatically drop posts 
originating from GG, then this wouldn't really buy us anything we don't 
have.


I think it's unlikely that anyone still following this thread isn't 
aware of the situation, but just in case:


We have a newsgroup (comp.lang.python) and a mailing list (python-list) 
which are mirrored to each other by virtue of the Mailman gateway (ie 
the mailing list handles both sides of the mirror).


Google Groups offers a mail & web interface to the newsgroup

Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list

The newsgroup is entirely unmoderated and unfiltered

The mailing list is moderated and filtered in different ways:

* We block (hold or discard) mailing list posts by subscriber

* We block inbound usenet posts by header (usually sender email but 
also, eg, ISP)


* We have a Spambayes instance running which injects a spam score header 
and we block on that header


* We have a few other more specific filters in place for various issues 
which have arisen over the years


By and large, this combination of filters, coupled with the work of the 
moderation and postmaster team, is enough to keep the list "clean" of 
manifest spam and so on. Obviously, the first instance of spam might 
slip past all our filters, in which case we're on the back foot and have 
to react. On the whole, though, we catch most things.


So dropping GG altogether would probably not add very much, as we're 
generally blocking undesirable posts from there and we'd rather not 
block genuine posts which happen to be made through the relative 
convenience of the GG interface.


Can I call out for thanks here the people who have worked behind the 
scenes for quite a long time to keep this list running smoothly, 
including: Skip Montanaro who manages the Spambayes setup; Mark Sapiro, 
the Mailman 2 dev lead who looks after all the python.org Mailman2 
instances; Ralf Hildebrandt who acts as Postmaster; of course Barry 
Warsaw who created Mailman (and this list, I believe) and still 
contributes when we need to discuss matters as list owners; of course 
Ethan Furman, my fellow list moderator; and doubtless others whom I've 
forgotten. The fact that the list continues to be readable and useful is 
down in large part to them.


TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:40:57 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out
> the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less
> than useless.

Who is it that you think should "drop" Google Groups?

If you mean individual people, it is their choice to use GG or not. I 
understand why some people might choose to use GG in general: it gives a 
reasonably discoverable web interface to Usenet.

Many people don't have access to Usenet, or even know it exists, so using 
GG is an obvious (if sub-par) alternative. (My own ISP appears to have 
dropped Usenet access, *yet again*. Each time they do so, there are 
enough complaints that they bring it back, but they simply don't stop 
trying.)

If you mean that the PSF should drop GG, that's not the PSF's choice to 
make. They don't send data specifically to GG and they can't shut off the 
pipe except by shutting it down for *everyone*. Google simply collects 
the data and mirrors it. The only one who can stop that is Google 
themselves.



-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Mark Lawrence]

On 08/02/18 23:33, Chris Angelico wrote:


The PSF doesn't *need* to take on Google, because there are other
newsgroup hosting sites that have less spam. Switch to one of those,
and voila, less spam in your inbox.

ChrisA



I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out 
the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less 
than useless.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:35 AM,  <breamore...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 12:15:16 AM UTC, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
>> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
>> of the google groupies.
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
>
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+39 more)
> Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro (2)
> By pyotr filipivich
> 4 posts 14 views
> 5:48 PM
> How to set/update value in a xml file using requests in python (5)
> By Sum J
> 5 posts 21 views
> 4:45 PM
> EuroPython 2018: Getting ready (1)
> By M.-A. Lemburg
> 1 post 3 views
> 3:40 PM
> How to work on a package (11)
> By Roel Schroeven
> 11 posts 34 views
> 3:19 PM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+25 more)
> Benchmarking Django on PyPy with unittest? (1)
> By Etienne Robillard
> 6 posts 18 views
> 9:33 AM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+18 more)
> Does anyone know ni? (6)
> By Roel Schroeven
> 6 posts 17 views
> 12:15 AM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. +1 more
>
> The above is taken from my small laptop screen showing just how useless 
> google groups is, so it might as well be blown away completely, or is it 
> impossible for the PSF to take on google?
>
> The most that I've ever whacked in one hit was +55 more, all of it the Case 
> Solutions/Test Bank crap.

The PSF doesn't *need* to take on Google, because there are other
newsgroup hosting sites that have less spam. Switch to one of those,
and voila, less spam in your inbox.

ChrisA
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[breamoreboy]

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 12:15:16 AM UTC, pyotr filipivich wrote:

> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> of the google groupies.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+39 more)
Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro (2)
By pyotr filipivich
4 posts 14 views
5:48 PM
How to set/update value in a xml file using requests in python (5)
By Sum J
5 posts 21 views
4:45 PM
EuroPython 2018: Getting ready (1)
By M.-A. Lemburg
1 post 3 views
3:40 PM
How to work on a package (11)
By Roel Schroeven
11 posts 34 views
3:19 PM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+25 more)
Benchmarking Django on PyPy with unittest? (1)
By Etienne Robillard
6 posts 18 views
9:33 AM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+18 more)
Does anyone know ni? (6)
By Roel Schroeven
6 posts 17 views
12:15 AM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. +1 more 

The above is taken from my small laptop screen showing just how useless google 
groups is, so it might as well be blown away completely, or is it impossible 
for the PSF to take on google?

The most that I've ever whacked in one hit was +55 more, all of it the Case 
Solutions/Test Bank crap.

Just saying.

--
Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.
-- 
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[mm0fmf]

On 08/02/2018 17:36, Gilmeh Serda wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 04:33:36 +1200, breamoreboy wrote:


When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,

stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.


Just as I have always suspected: Google are run by idiots!


But very, very, very rich idiots.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Larry Martell]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Gilmeh Serda
 wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 04:33:36 +1200, breamoreboy wrote:
>
>>> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
>> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
>> apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.
>
> Just as I have always suspected: Google are run by idiots!

Very, very rich idiots.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2018 06:49:57 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:34 AM, Mark Lawrence 
> wrote:
>> On 03/02/18 17:56, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>>> You seem to confuse the mailing-list and the newsgroup. The
>>> mailing-list doesn't have a spam problem, and it is already (lightly)
>>> moderated.
>>>
>>> The newsgroup does have a spam problem (as well as a few other
>>> problems, like gmane mangling message-ids and breaking threads).
>>> Google groups is an interface to the newsgroup.
>>>
>>> There is a bi-directional gateway between them, but they aren't the
>>> same thing.
>>>
>>>  hp
>>>
>>>
>> No, they are one and the same thing, except that this is automatically
>> blocked by the numpty moderators, whereas some things that I state on
>> gg are passed, other things aren't.  It is quite clear that the
>> moderators are biased against people such as myself who are autistic
> 
> No, the moderators are biased against people who are constantly rude.
> Did you know that, autistic or not, you have the power to choose the
> tone of the words you type?

How about people with Tourette's Syndrome and a hair-trigger "Send" 
command?

:-)

Seriously though, Mark, the newsgroup and the mailing list aren't the 
same thing. They use different technology, they're run by different 
organisations, and they have different moderators (actual people 
moderating the mailing list, nobody moderating the newsgroup). You can 
see from the detailed message headers which messages reach you directly 
via the newsgroup and which have come through the mailing list, or vice 
versa.

With a little care, you can even ensure that a message goes to the 
newgroup but not the mailing list, although I'm not sure if you can do it 
the other way.


-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[alister via Python-list]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2018 06:49:57 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:34 AM, Mark Lawrence 
> wrote:
>> On 03/02/18 17:56, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>>> You seem to confuse the mailing-list and the newsgroup. The
>>> mailing-list doesn't have a spam problem, and it is already (lightly)
>>> moderated.
>>>
>>> The newsgroup does have a spam problem (as well as a few other
>>> problems,
>>> like gmane mangling message-ids and breaking threads). Google groups
>>> is an interface to the newsgroup.
>>>
>>> There is a bi-directional gateway between them, but they aren't the
>>> same thing.
>>>
>>>  hp
>>>
>>>
>> No, they are one and the same thing, except that this is automatically
>> blocked by the numpty moderators, whereas some things that I state on
>> gg are passed, other things aren't.  It is quite clear that the
>> moderators are biased against people such as myself who are autistic
> 
> No, the moderators are biased against people who are constantly rude.
> Did you know that, autistic or not, you have the power to choose the
> tone of the words you type?
> 
> ChrisA

indeed my son is mildly autistic. I always explained to him that that 
diagnosis did not give him an excuse, it simply gave him an explanation 
of why things were harder for him.


-- 
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:34 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 03/02/18 17:56, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>> You seem to confuse the mailing-list and the newsgroup. The mailing-list
>> doesn't have a spam problem, and it is already (lightly) moderated.
>>
>> The newsgroup does have a spam problem (as well as a few other problems,
>> like gmane mangling message-ids and breaking threads). Google groups is
>> an interface to the newsgroup.
>>
>> There is a bi-directional gateway between them, but they aren't the same
>> thing.
>>
>>  hp
>>
>
> No, they are one and the same thing, except that this is automatically
> blocked by the numpty moderators, whereas some things that I state on gg are
> passed, other things aren't.  It is quite clear that the moderators are
> biased against people such as myself who are autistic

No, the moderators are biased against people who are constantly rude.
Did you know that, autistic or not, you have the power to choose the
tone of the words you type?

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Mark Lawrence]

On 03/02/18 17:56, Peter J. Holzer wrote:

On 2018-02-03 04:33:36 -0800, breamore...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 5:01:58 PM UTC, superchromix wrote:

Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
Groups.

[...]

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something
similar may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.


That's no big deal as this list used to have a wonderful signal to
noise ratio, now it would be better to report the noise to signal
ratio.  I've just finished flagging up 45 consecutive messages on the
group as spam, all of them from today and all of them from the "Case
Solutions" crew.

The downside of this list being blocked is that you'd all no doubt
miss my wonderful contributions :)  Unless of course a new list is
opened, properly moderated, with a really original name like
python-users.


You seem to confuse the mailing-list and the newsgroup. The mailing-list
doesn't have a spam problem, and it is already (lightly) moderated.

The newsgroup does have a spam problem (as well as a few other problems,
like gmane mangling message-ids and breaking threads). Google groups is
an interface to the newsgroup.

There is a bi-directional gateway between them, but they aren't the same
thing.

 hp



No, they are one and the same thing, except that this is automatically 
blocked by the numpty moderators, whereas some things that I state on gg 
are passed, other things aren't.  It is quite clear that the moderators 
are biased against people such as myself who are autistic


My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Peter J. Holzer]

On 2018-02-03 04:33:36 -0800, breamore...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 5:01:58 PM UTC, superchromix wrote:
> > Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
> > comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
> > ago.
> > 
> > Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
> > Groups.  
[...]
> > Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something
> > similar may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
> 
> That's no big deal as this list used to have a wonderful signal to
> noise ratio, now it would be better to report the noise to signal
> ratio.  I've just finished flagging up 45 consecutive messages on the
> group as spam, all of them from today and all of them from the "Case
> Solutions" crew.
> 
> The downside of this list being blocked is that you'd all no doubt
> miss my wonderful contributions :)  Unless of course a new list is
> opened, properly moderated, with a really original name like
> python-users.

You seem to confuse the mailing-list and the newsgroup. The mailing-list
doesn't have a spam problem, and it is already (lightly) moderated.

The newsgroup does have a spam problem (as well as a few other problems,
like gmane mangling message-ids and breaking threads). Google groups is
an interface to the newsgroup.

There is a bi-directional gateway between them, but they aren't the same
thing.

hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer| we build much bigger, better disasters now
|_|_) || because we have much more sophisticated
| |   | h...@hjp.at | management tools.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ross Anderson 


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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[breamoreboy]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 5:01:58 PM UTC, superchromix wrote:
> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
> 
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.  
> 
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to 
> Google in order to have access reinstated.
> 
> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no way 
> to unblock the group.
> 
> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going back 
> many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is frequently 
> used by IDL programmers.
> 
> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.

That's no big deal as this list used to have a wonderful signal to noise ratio, 
now it would be better to report the noise to signal ratio.  I've just finished 
flagging up 45 consecutive messages on the group as spam, all of them from 
today and all of them from the "Case Solutions" crew.

The downside of this list being blocked is that you'd all no doubt miss my 
wonderful contributions :)  Unless of course a new list is opened, properly 
moderated, with a really original name like python-users.

--
Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[pyotr filipivich]

breamore...@gmail.com on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 04:33:36 -0800 (PST) typed in
comp.lang.python  the following:
>On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 5:01:58 PM UTC, superchromix wrote:
>> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
>> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
>> 
>> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.  
>> 
>> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
>> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to 
>> Google in order to have access reinstated.
>> 
>> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
>> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no 
>> way to unblock the group.
>> 
>> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going 
>> back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is 
>> frequently used by IDL programmers.
>> 
>> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
>> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
>
>That's no big deal as this list used to have a wonderful signal to noise 
>ratio, now it would be better to report the noise to signal ratio.  I've just 
>finished flagging up 45 consecutive messages on the group as spam, all of them 
>from today and all of them from the "Case Solutions" crew.

So you just indicated that of N postings, 45 different ones were
spam?   Rather than indicate that one poster of N is a spammer?

I know, Google doesn't let you filter posts on author, and make
specific authors or subjects to be ignored.   
And their search engine is a joke.


>The downside of this list being blocked is that you'd all no doubt miss my 
>wonderful contributions :)  Unless of course a new list is opened, properly 
>moderated, with a really original name like python-users.

Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.


-- 
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-02-02, dieter  wrote:
> jlada...@itu.edu writes:
>> ...
>> Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you search?  
>> In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has been poor.
>
> I am using "gmane.org" which has quite a good search (in my view).

1) Gmane's search sucked.  [Using Google to search the Gmane site
   worked fairly well.]

2) Gmane's search and webui has been absent for years.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! ... If I had heart
  at   failure right now,
  gmail.comI couldn't be a more
   fortunate man!!

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

i find the mail experience to be really nice and fool proof (except when
some really bold spam makes it through)

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
https://abdurrahmaanjanhangeer.wordpress.com

On 1 Feb 2018 21:09, "superchromix"  wrote:

>
> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave,
> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
>
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.
>
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply
> to Google in order to have access reinstated.
>
> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no
> way to unblock the group.
>
> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going
> back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is
> frequently used by IDL programmers.
>
> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may
> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Chris Green]

jlada...@itu.edu wrote:
> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:07:15 AM UTC-8, alister wrote:
> 
> > simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or 
> > a news server with an NNTP client
> 
> Sigh.  I've been on Usenet since 1986.  Is this how it ends?  I will move if 
> I must.
> 
> Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you search? 
> In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has been poor. 
> 
I read using NNTP. I run my own local newserver (leafnode, very simple
to configure) that aggregates feeds from two public NNTP servers which
provides some robustness if things go wrong with either.

By configuring the time for which posts are retained by leafnode (to
quite a long time) I can search back a long way.  As I only read
a few tens of newsgroups this doesn't require much disk space.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 08:24:36 +0100, dieter wrote:

> jlada...@itu.edu writes:
>> ...
>> Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you
>> search?  In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has
>> been poor.
> 
> I am using "gmane.org" which has quite a good search (in my view). 

Are you sure? Have you tried it recently, and by recently I mean in the 
last year or so, since the host's hard drive melted down. As far as I am 
aware, gmane's web archives hasn't worked for many months.

http://gmane.org/find.php?list=python


http://home.gmane.org/


-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[dieter]

jlada...@itu.edu writes:
> ...
> Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you search?  
> In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has been poor.

I am using "gmane.org" which has quite a good search (in my view).
Not sure, whether "gmane.org" hosts "your" newsgroup.

Of course, the service may go away in the future.


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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Cameron Simpson]

On 01Feb2018 15:48, jlada...@itu.edu  wrote:

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:07:15 AM UTC-8, alister wrote:

simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or
a news server with an NNTP client


Sigh.  I've been on Usenet since 1986.  Is this how it ends?  I will move if I 
must.


Might just mean you need to move from letting Google deliver it to you. The 
beauty of usenet is that taking down one provider doesn't break stuff.


 The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
 - John Gilmore

Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you search?  
In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has been poor.


Well, I cheat. When I join a mailing list I download its archives into my local 
mail store. The I can use whatever I like (currently notmuch) to index and 
search. Locally, even when offline.


I appreciate that this doesn't work form random ad hoc mailing lists I don't 
use, and also that some mailing lists don't present downloadable archives 
(uncivilised IMO).


Otherwise, there is DuckDuckGo and The Google.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson  (formerly c...@zip.com.au)
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:48:36 -0800, jladasky wrote:

> Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you
> search?  In my experience, searching through mailing list archives has
> been poor.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Amail.python.org+searching+through+mailing+list+archives



-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[jladasky]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:07:15 AM UTC-8, alister wrote:

> simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or 
> a news server with an NNTP client

Sigh.  I've been on Usenet since 1986.  Is this how it ends?  I will move if I 
must.

Let me ask those of you who are not using Google Groups: how do you search?  In 
my experience, searching through mailing list archives has been poor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Pete Forman]

mark...@gmail.com writes:

> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:01:58 PM UTC+1, superchromix wrote:
>> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
>> comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
>> ago.
>>
>> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
>> Groups.
>>
>> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now
>> displayed, stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam,
>> and can then apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.
>>
>> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner. The
>> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old. Hence, there
>> is no way to unblock the group.
>>
>> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings
>> going back many years has been blocked, no just the spam. This
>> resource is frequently used by IDL programmers.
>>
>> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something
>> similar may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
>
> The problem I have now is that there is no public, searchable archive
> of comp.lang.idl-pvwave available. This was the real benefit of Google
> groups, from my point of view.
>
> There is something called "narkive", but its search function seems to
> be broken, and it doesn't archive very far back in time.

A couple of other mail archivers are:

https://www.mail-archive.com
https://marc.info

-- 
Pete Forman
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-02-01, Jan van den Broek  wrote:
> On 2018-02-01, superchromix  wrote:
>>
>> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
>> comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several
>> months ago.
>>
>> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
>> Groups.
[...]
> [Schnipp]
>
> Personally I would see this as an improvement.

I plonked all posts from google groops yonks ago.  Now that gmane's
web UI is gone, maybe google groups is useful as a searchable archive
(I don't know, I've never used it).  For me, google groups is nothing
but a source of spam.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Let's send the
  at   Russians defective
  gmail.comlifestyle accessories!

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Jan van den Broek]

On 2018-02-01, superchromix  wrote:
>
> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
>started receiving spam messages several months ago.
>
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.  
>
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
>stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply 
>to Google in order to have access reinstated.

[Schnipp]

Personally I would see this as an improvement.
-- 
Jan v/d Broek
balgl...@dds.nl
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[mm0fmf]

On 01/02/2018 17:15, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 4:01 AM, superchromix  wrote:


Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
started receiving spam messages several months ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.

When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, stating 
that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to Google in 
order to have access reinstated.

However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no way 
to unblock the group.

This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going back 
many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is frequently 
used by IDL programmers.

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
happen to comp.lang.python, soon.



Pot, meet Kettle.

Most of our worst spam comes FROM the Google Groups bridge. If they
cut the connection, I would not be sorry.


 ^^

This. This a googol times!

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 4:50 AM,   wrote:
> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:01:58 PM UTC+1, superchromix wrote:
>> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
>> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
>>
>> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.
>>
>> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
>> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to 
>> Google in order to have access reinstated.
>>
>> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
>> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no 
>> way to unblock the group.
>>
>> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going 
>> back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is 
>> frequently used by IDL programmers.
>>
>> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
>> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
>
> The problem I have now is that there is no public, searchable archive of 
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave available.  This was the real benefit of Google groups, 
> from my point of view.
>
> There is something called "narkive", but its search function seems to be 
> broken, and it doesn't archive very far back in time.
>

Which is why you don't rely on proprietary services if you don't have
to. They can go away at any time, without notice.

Fortunately, python-list has its own archive, so you can access that
from python.org independently of the newsgroup's availability
elsewhere on the internet. It doesn't have all the posts that are on
the newsgroup and not on the mailing list, but IMO that's a feature,
not a bug. (With the possible exception of the "no-archive" posts.
Possible exception only.)

ChrisA
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[markb77]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:01:58 PM UTC+1, superchromix wrote:
> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
> 
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.  
> 
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to 
> Google in order to have access reinstated.
> 
> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no way 
> to unblock the group.
> 
> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going back 
> many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is frequently 
> used by IDL programmers.
> 
> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.

The problem I have now is that there is no public, searchable archive of 
comp.lang.idl-pvwave available.  This was the real benefit of Google groups, 
from my point of view.

There is something called "narkive", but its search function seems to be 
broken, and it doesn't archive very far back in time.
-- 
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[markb77]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:22:22 PM UTC+1, Jack Dangler wrote:
> On 02/01/2018 12:06 PM, alister via Python-list wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:01:35 -0800, superchromix wrote:
> >
> >> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
> >> comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
> >> ago.
> >>
> >> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
> >> Groups.
> >>
> >> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
> >> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
> >> apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.
> >>
> >> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
> >> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is
> >> no way to unblock the group.
> >>
> >> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going
> >> back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is
> >> frequently used by IDL programmers.
> >>
> >> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar
> >> may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
> > simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or
> > a news server with an NNTP client
> >
> >
> >
> Is it possible to name an 'owner' and then get into the group archive to 
> remove the spam by account "recovery" ?

Is this possible within the framework of the Usenet?
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 4:01 AM, superchromix  wrote:
>
> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
> started receiving spam messages several months ago.
>
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.
>
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, 
> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to 
> Google in order to have access reinstated.
>
> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no way 
> to unblock the group.
>
> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going back 
> many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is frequently 
> used by IDL programmers.
>
> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
> happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
>

Pot, meet Kettle.

Most of our worst spam comes FROM the Google Groups bridge. If they
cut the connection, I would not be sorry.

ChrisA
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Tim Golden]

On 01/02/2018 17:01, superchromix wrote:


Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
Groups.

When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now
displayed, stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and
can then apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.

However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there
is no way to unblock the group.

This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings
going back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This
resource is frequently used by IDL programmers.

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something
similar may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.



Thanks for the heads-up. I'm not sure there's anything we'll be able to 
do. Google have seemed remarkably uninterested in Google Groups for some 
years now.


Although I recognise how useful GG is for some people, I wouldn't be 
sorry [as a list maintainer here] if it were to be blocked for good by 
forces outside our control. We've wondered several times whether we 
ought to be block its posts outright, but to date we've simply used 
refined filters to block the spam and other abuse. If Google essentially 
close the group down, the decision is taken out of our hands.


TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Jack Dangler]

On 02/01/2018 12:06 PM, alister via Python-list wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:01:35 -0800, superchromix wrote:


Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
Groups.

When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.

However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is
no way to unblock the group.

This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going
back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is
frequently used by IDL programmers.

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar
may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.

simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or
a news server with an NNTP client



Is it possible to name an 'owner' and then get into the group archive to 
remove the spam by account "recovery" ?


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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[alister via Python-list]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:01:35 -0800, superchromix wrote:

> Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
> ago.
> 
> Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
> Groups.
> 
> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
> apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.
> 
> However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
> comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is
> no way to unblock the group.
> 
> This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going
> back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is
> frequently used by IDL programmers.
> 
> Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar
> may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.

simple solution stop using google groups & use either the mailing list or 
a news server with an NNTP client



-- 
Your wig steers the gig.
-- Lord Buckley
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This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[superchromix]

Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at comp.lang.idl-pvwave, 
started receiving spam messages several months ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google Groups.  

When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed, stating 
that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then apply to Google in 
order to have access reinstated.

However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The 
comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there is no way 
to unblock the group.

This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings going back 
many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This resource is frequently 
used by IDL programmers.

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something similar may 
happen to comp.lang.python, soon.
-- 
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