Re: Tkinter docs?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2023-05-26, Rob Cliffe via Python-list  wrote:

> Grant, I may well buy one of the books you suggested.

I haven't had look at either of the newer books, but I got a lot of
good out of the Grayson book (20 years ago).  I also had a Tcl/Tk book
that I found useful even when usng tkinter, but it's even older than
the Grayson one...
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Re: Tkinter docs?

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

Thanks to everyone who replied.  All replies were constructive, none 
were telling me to stop belly-aching.
I forgot/omitted to state that it was I who wrote the original project 
(in a completely different language), making the task of re-writing it 
much less formidable.  And meaning that I am familiar with the general 
concepts of building a GUI.  Still, it will be a lot of work.


Grant, I may well buy one of the books you suggested.
I find the topic of themes and styles the hardest one to get my head 
around (if anyone knows a good introduction that would be fantastic).  
All the other stuff is OK provided I can find something on the net to 
give me the necessary information, which so far I usually can.


Christian, I am adopting your suggestion of using ttk widgets, except 
for Button objects, because

    The colour of tk.Button objects can be set directly (bg=... fg=...)
    On my platform (Windows10) the shadowing of tk.Button objects is 
more conspicuous (without using styles or whatever).


Best wishes
Rob Cliffe

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Re: Tkinter docs?

[Cameron Simpson]

On 24May2023 02:18, Rob Cliffe  wrote:

    There doesn't seem to be any decent documentation for it anywhere.


Already mentioned in the replies, I use this: 
https://tkdocs.com/shipman/index.html

quite a lot.
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Re: Tkinter docs?

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 24.05.23 um 03:18 schrieb Rob Cliffe:
I have recently started converting a large project to tkinter, starting 
with zero knowledge of tkinter.  (You are free to think: BAD IDEA. )


Welcome to the awesome world of GUI development.

     I was writing a subclass of the Checkbutton class (tkinter's name 
for what I call a checkbox).  I needed to be able to (1) set (2) clear 
(3) interrogate the checked state.  This is easy to do if you associate 
a "variable" with each Checkbutton instance, as seems to be usual 
tkinter practice.  ("variable" is not a variable in the usual sense, but 
an object provided by tkinter that is linked to a GUI object (such as a 
Checkbutton), so that when the GUI object changes, the value of the 
"variable" changes, and vice versa.) However, I decided that I wanted to 
dispense with the variable, if possible.  


As you found out the hard way, it is possible, but then you dive into 
the internals of how the widgets work - usually you don't want to know 
that. Also, this bit differs between Tk and Ttk widgets.




[...] lengthe description of Checkbutton internals



In GUI programming, you will meet a bag of concepts that you haven't 
seen in sequential programming before. To make it worse, every GUI 
toolkit brings its own new set of concepts to the table. Maybe it is 
helpful to work through a Tk tutorial first. This is a good one:


http://tkdocs.com/tutorial/index.html

Similarly to the tutorial I would suggest to stick with the ttk widgets. 
Those are an "update" (> 10 years ago) to the tk widgets and are 
supposed to provide sensible defaults matching the users experience with 
native GUI elements. There are only 3 widgets where you must use a Tk 
widget, this is Text (for multiline formatted text entry), Canvas (for 
2D drawings), and Toplevel (for new windows/ popups etc.)


Christian

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Re: Tkinter docs?

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, 24 May 2023 at 13:11, Rob Cliffe via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> I have recently started converting a large project to tkinter, starting
> with zero knowledge of tkinter.  (You are free to think: BAD IDEA. )
> I am well aware that adopting a new tool always involves a learning
> curve, and that one is prone to think that things are more difficult
> than they are/should be, and to belly-ache about it, and that in a year
> from now I'll probably wonder what I'm fussing about.

Yes, I do think this is a bad idea, though not an abysmal one. I would
recommend first playing with tkinter in a dedicated UI-only project
before converting the main project to it. Your code in the scratch
project can be as messy as it likes, and then you learn from it before
tackling the big one :)

But your concerns about tkinter's documentation are, sadly,
well-founded. Since it's this weird system of thin wrappers around
Tcl/Tk, a lot of things are basically just "go read the Tk docs".
There are a few key concepts you'll need to get your head around, and
I can't go into details because I never truly got *my* head around
them... but mostly, the way that variables are used and what happens
when events fire.

Good luck with it. I'll be frank, building a GUI can be pretty hard...
I'm still unsure whether the best way is to use something like
tkinter, or to build a web app, pop up a browser window, and establish
a websocket to communicate between your JavaScript front end and your
Python back end. Yeah, that's how bad GUI building can be sometimes -
it is potentially *easier* to build two halves of your app in two
different languages than to make your GUI work the way you want it.

ChrisA
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Re: Tkinter docs?

[aapost]

On 5/23/23 21:18, Rob Cliffe wrote:


Comments, anyone?
Better yet (holds breath ...) can anyone point me towards some decent 
tkinter documentation?


The variables are slightly more integrated when using tcl/tk directly, 
python has to have the object so you can track/use them easier. And the 
variables are more of what is intended to track a widgets purpose, vs 
state stuff that is more the state of the displaying of the widget.


occasionally giving tcl/tk a try directly helps, and using the official 
tcl/tk docs in addition to a couple other decent docs below.


https://anzeljg.github.io/rin2/book2/2405/docs/tkinter/index.html
https://tkdocs.com/tutorial/styles.html

https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/
https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TkCmd/contents.html
https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TkLib/contents.html

(this used to be some documentation that I only discovered existed 
recently, but most of it doesn't load and I don't know that anyone 
backed it up for rehosting..)

https://web.archive.org/web/20200227170827/http://effbot.org/tkinterbook

tk is decent for what it can do, (and it could do potentially more if 
you had a lifetime to dedicate to it, lol) and it's reasonably stable 
and not being perpetually hacked about and broken like gtk.


A couple additional pointers in case these haven't been figured out yet:
Running it interactively and using tab complete helps.
If you are running an app you can comment out the mytk.mainloop() 
statement then run python -i yourtk.py to give you access to all widgets 
live.
For navigating them, just come up with a widget naming convention that 
works for you in a similar vein to how tk does (like .frame.frame.label 
to start),

i.e.
main = tk.Tk()
main.frame = tk.Frame()
That way if you have anchored your widgets to something at the root 
level you can navigate down to whatever you are looking for easily. (you 
can also use winfo_children() iteratively to travel the way tcl 
structures them, but that is tedious).

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Re: Tkinter docs?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2023-05-24, Rob Cliffe via Python-list  wrote:
> I have recently started converting a large project to tkinter, starting 
> with zero knowledge of tkinter.  (You are free to think: BAD IDEA. )

Well, you could be translating them to Tcl/Tk -- so on the scale of
bad ideas, your's barely registers.

> I am well aware that adopting a new tool always involves a learning 
> curve, and that one is prone to think that things are more difficult 
> than they are/should be, and to belly-ache about it, and that in a year 
> from now I'll probably wonder what I'm fussing about.
> Nonetheless ISTM that there is a particular problem with tkinter:
>
>   There doesn't seem to be any decent documentation for it anywhere.

Back in the day, the Grayson book was the definitive reference:

   https://www.amazon.com/Python-Tkinter-Programming-John-Grayson/dp/1884777813/

It's 20+ years old now, so the version of Python it uses is pretty
ancient, and I presume Tk has also changed a bit over the years, so...

There are a couple recent books, but I haven't looked at them:

   
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Tkinter-Busy-Python-Developers-dp-1999149564/dp/1999149564/

   
https://www.amazon.com/Python-GUI-Programming-Tkinter-user-friendly/dp/1801815925/

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Tkinter docs?

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

I have recently started converting a large project to tkinter, starting 
with zero knowledge of tkinter.  (You are free to think: BAD IDEA. )
I am well aware that adopting a new tool always involves a learning 
curve, and that one is prone to think that things are more difficult 
than they are/should be, and to belly-ache about it, and that in a year 
from now I'll probably wonder what I'm fussing about.

Nonetheless ISTM that there is a particular problem with tkinter:

    There doesn't seem to be any decent documentation for it anywhere.

 I seem to have spent al least 95% (feels more like 99%) of my time in 
research, only the rest available for coding.  Everything I've learned 
has come from scouring the Internet for Stack Overflow pages, videos, 
and other articles.  And while I'm VERY grateful for these resources, 
most of them cover very basic use, and if I want information on some 
more obscure technical point, I can only go on looking and looking and 
hope I eventually stumble upon what I'm looking for, or some acceptable 
substitute.
FWIW: The tkinter error messages are sometimes helpful, sometimes not, 
occasionally very helpful (as when I pass an invalid option parameter to 
a function and it tells me what the valid ones are).  I feel there is 
plenty of room for improvement.


One example for those familiar with tkinter (I assure you there are 
others) of how I struggle without adequate documentation:
    I had learned very early on that tkinter provides two versions of 
some classes: the original, or "tk" versions, and a later generation, 
the "ttk" versions (and I have to say that that was a turn-off, as it 
seemed that the learning curve has just got steeper).  It was surely not 
appropriate for me to delve deeply into this issue at that stage, as 
there were so many other things I didn't know (like, practically 
everything).  I decide to go with the "tk" versions pro tem, and to 
investigate the "ttk" versions later if it seemed like a good idea.  One 
annoyance is that some webpages are relevant to one version, some to the 
other, almost always without being explicit about which.  (Can't blame 
the "tk" ones, as they were probably written before "ttk" was invented.)
    I was writing a subclass of the Checkbutton class (tkinter's name 
for what I call a checkbox).  I needed to be able to (1) set (2) clear 
(3) interrogate the checked state.  This is easy to do if you associate 
a "variable" with each Checkbutton instance, as seems to be usual 
tkinter practice.  ("variable" is not a variable in the usual sense, but 
an object provided by tkinter that is linked to a GUI object (such as a 
Checkbutton), so that when the GUI object changes, the value of the 
"variable" changes, and vice versa.) However, I decided that I wanted to 
dispense with the variable, if possible.  (My motivation?  Simpler 
code.  Shorter code.  Avoiding using up resources by creating 
unnecessary objects.  You are free to think that I was misguided.  You 
are free to think that I should have been happy with something that 
worked.)  I didn't care whether I used a tk.Checkbutton or a 
ttk.Checkbutton.
    From various Internet articles I discovered (slowly, after wading 
through many articles that DID use a "variable"):
        A way of GETting the state of a tk.CheckButton (but not a 
ttk.CheckButton)
        A way of SETting the state of a ttk.CheckButton (but not a 
tk.CheckButton)
        Or the other way round.  Or something else.  I can no longer 
remember, and I didn't keep a record of all my trials and tribulations, 
and I can no longer trace which articles I read when.

    EVENTUALLY I discovered:
        For a ttk.CheckButton (only), where cb is the checkbox
            cb.state() returns a tuple of strings which contains, or 
doesn't, "selected", according to the checked state

            cb.state(["selected"]) sets the checked state
            cb.state(["!selected"]) clears the checked state
"Aha!" I thought.  "Problem solved".  Gleefully I wrote my code and 
tested it.
Er, well, not quite.  When the Checkbutton object was instantiated, it 
showed neither a checked nor an unchecked box, but a solid black box.  
This was the third or so-called "alternate" state provided by tkinter.  
(Gee, thanks.  Oh sorry, it's probably not your fault; as I understand 
it, tkinter, you're really just a wrapper.)

Further research revealed that I could get past this by writing
    cb.state(["!alternate", "!selected"])
when the object was instantiated.
Phew!  Finally got my code working.
But the story is not quite over.  To get the checked state I was using
    "selected" in cb.state()
While this works, later (in fact while composing this e-mail) I stumbled 
across

    cb.instate(["selected"])
which does the same thing but is, I guess, the preferred method.  I have 
amended my code accordingly.

(I don't know why the square brackets are necessary, but
    cb.instate("selected")
doesn't work.)
Sigh.  I suppose I have 

[issue464900] Include TKInter Docs

[admin]

Change by admin :


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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[Zachary Ware]

Zachary Ware  added the comment:

I'm closing this as a duplicate of bpo-42560 (and probably several others).

Chris: in short, we know the Tkinter docs are incomplete and we welcome 
improvements to them, but it costs just as much to say "I don't have the time 
to spend on this" as it does to say "you have to make this easier for me for 
free" :).

As far as using the official Tk docs for Tkinter: their documentation is fairly 
comprehensive and easily translatable, because Tkinter as a translation layer 
tries to be as thin as possible.  You don't have to know Tcl to use their 
documentation beyond some very basic syntax.  To add full documentation of 
Tkinter, we would basically have to copy all of Tk's documentation.  At that 
point, it feels pretty pointless to do so when we can just point there in the 
first place (as we already do).

--
nosy: +zach.ware
resolution:  -> duplicate
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed
superseder:  -> Improve Tkinter Documentation

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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[E. Paine]

E. Paine  added the comment:

> full, complete, useful documentation of everything

Please see msg384022 on why I'm personally against such changes. I was working 
on 'translating' the Tk man pages into something (hopefully) understandable by 
tkinter users (as reference documentation), however lost steam after completing 
only ~2/3 of the canvas methods (due to the size of such a project).

> at bare minimum a structured list of all names exposed by the module's public 
> interface

Like Steven, I think this would probably be a helpful change, however, this is 
of limited use without an accompanying description.

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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[Chris Trent]

Chris Trent  added the comment:

To put it bluntly, having me submit patches to that section of the docs is just 
about the last thing you want. I know precious little about TKinter, which is 
precisely why I'm calling for something more than a half-assed tutorial.

Regarding using the TCL/TK docs, not happening. I don't have the time nor 
patience to learn a dead scripting language just to read docs, if I wanted to 
do that, I'd learn Javascript.

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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[Steven D'Aprano]

Steven D'Aprano  added the comment:

Are you referring to this?

https://docs.python.org/3/library/tkinter.html

I acknowledge that there are legitimate criticism of the tkinter docs, and its 
weaknesses, but you overstate your case.

- Tutorials are documentation, they just aren't *reference* documentation; 
there are other kinds of documentation, such as Quick Start Guides, How Tos, 
tutorials, FAQs, man pages, doc strings, etc.

- Tutorials don't necessarily belong on a wiki.

- A structured list of names in the public interface is certainly nice to have, 
but it shouldn't be taken as the one feature that defines documentation.

- That our docs "... should be the sole authoritative source" is nice to aspire 
to, but probably not practical in the case of tkinter.

Having said all that, please do submit patches with concrete improvements. 
Don't feel that you must completely redesign the entire tkinter docs. 
Incremental improvements are welcome as well.

"3rd party sites of dubious provenance and questionable accuracy"

I don't think that tkdocs.com is any more dubious or questionable than anything 
we could write; and the tcl/tk documentation at tcl.tk is the one source of 
truth for tcl/tk. Tkinter is just a third-party interface to it.

--
nosy: +steven.daprano
type: behavior -> enhancement

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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[Chris Trent]

Change by Chris Trent :


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type:  -> behavior

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[issue44485] TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation

[Chris Trent]

New submission from Chris Trent :

The documentation pages for the tkinter module are not actually documentation. 
They are tutorials, which belong on the wiki. "Documentation" is not 
documentation if it does not provide at bare minimum a structured list of all 
names exposed by the module's public interface. 

Python's official docs should be the sole authoritative source for full, 
complete, useful documentation of everything one could need to know about a 
module, but instead, We're forced to go to 3rd party sites of dubious 
provenance and questionable accuracy, instead of being able to just go to the 
source, and find a page to, I don't know, find out what kinds of panels we have 
to work with.

--
assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
messages: 396313
nosy: arkevorkhat, docs@python
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: TKinter docs page does not provide actual documentation
versions: Python 3.9

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Serhiy Storchaka]

Change by Serhiy Storchaka :


--
resolution:  -> fixed
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed
versions: +Python 3.6

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset c843a47007293d8361d0bfd45bfd7169afaa601c by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.6':
bpo-35086: Fix tkinter example "A Simple Hello World Program". (GH-10160)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/c843a47007293d8361d0bfd45bfd7169afaa601c


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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset f51ef51db686938486bff453e791a3093a1df108 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.7':
bpo-35086: Fix tkinter example "A Simple Hello World Program". (GH-10160)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/f51ef51db686938486bff453e791a3093a1df108


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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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pull_requests: +9555

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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pull_requests: +9554

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Serhiy Storchaka]

Serhiy Storchaka  added the comment:


New changeset a80af770870937271865b5e2b05a2cfe40b024b6 by Serhiy Storchaka 
(Daniel Lovell) in branch 'master':
bpo-35086: Fix tkinter example "A Simple Hello World Program". (GH-10160)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/a80af770870937271865b5e2b05a2cfe40b024b6


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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Daniel Lovell]

Daniel Lovell  added the comment:

Thanks for the reply xtreak. I agree that changing the example to include 
main() isn't necessary - I unintentionally included that from my example of the 
case where the current version isn't functional. 

In the PR I submitted on Github (https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/10160), 
the proposed change is simply adding the master Tk instance to self.master then 
using that to close the window in the Quit button callback.

Sorry for the confusion.

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Karthikeyan Singaravelan]

Karthikeyan Singaravelan  added the comment:

Thanks for the report. So the current example in the docs works fine since root 
is in global namespace. But this seems to be a sensible change to use 
self.master which references root instead of relying on root to be global 
though I don't know we should restructure the example to use main(). I am 
adding Serhiy for review.

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Daniel Lovell]

Change by Daniel Lovell :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +9484
stage:  -> patch review

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[issue35086] tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program

[Daniel Lovell]

New submission from Daniel Lovell :

In the documentation for tkinter, "A Simple Hello World Program" Application 
class does not hold onto the master Tk() instance as a class attribute. This is 
a good practice, and newcomers to tkinter would likely have trouble closing the 
window without this since root will almost never be in the global namespace.

The original example:

"""""

import tkinter as tk

class Application(tk.Frame):
def __init__(self, master=None):
super().__init__(master)
self.pack()
self.create_widgets()

def create_widgets(self):
self.hi_there = tk.Button(self)
self.hi_there["text"] = "Hello World\n(click me)"
self.hi_there["command"] = self.say_hi
self.hi_there.pack(side="top")

self.quit = tk.Button(self, text="QUIT", fg="red",
  command=root.destroy)
self.quit.pack(side="bottom")

def say_hi(self):
print("hi there, everyone!")

root = tk.Tk()
app = Application(master=root)
app.mainloop()

""""

The proposed fix:

""""
import tkinter as tk

class Application(tk.Frame):
def __init__(self, master=None):
super().__init__(master)
self.master = master
self.pack()
self.create_widgets()

def create_widgets(self):
self.hi_there = tk.Button(self)
self.hi_there["text"] = "Hello World\n(click me)"
self.hi_there["command"] = self.say_hi
self.hi_there.pack(side="top")

self.quit = tk.Button(self, text="QUIT", fg="red",
  command=self.master.destroy)
self.quit.pack(side="bottom")

def say_hi(self):
print("hi there, everyone!")

def main():
root = tk.Tk()
app = Application(master=root)
app.mainloop()

if __name__ == "__main__":
main()

""""

--
components: Tkinter
files: tkinter_hello_world_issue.png
messages: 328669
nosy: NuclearLemon
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: tkinter docs: errors in A Simple Hello World Program
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.7, Python 3.8
Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file47894/tkinter_hello_world_issue.png

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[ python-Bugs-1108490 ] broken link in tkinter docs

[SourceForge.net]

Bugs item #1108490, was opened at 2005-01-24 18:35
Message generated for change (Comment added) made by jlgijsbers
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Category: Documentation
Group: Python 2.4
Status: Closed
Resolution: Fixed
Priority: 5
Submitted By: Ilya Sandler (isandler)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: broken link in tkinter docs

Initial Comment:
Compound link on

http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/node721.html

is broken.




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Comment By: Johannes Gijsbers (jlgijsbers)
Date: 2005-01-29 20:54

Message:
Logged In: YES 
user_id=469548

Fixed in maint24 and HEAD.

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[ python-Bugs-1108490 ] broken link in tkinter docs

[SourceForge.net]

Bugs item #1108490, was opened at 2005-01-24 09:35
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailatid=105470aid=1108490group_id=5470

Category: Documentation
Group: Python 2.4
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Submitted By: Ilya Sandler (isandler)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: broken link in tkinter docs

Initial Comment:
Compound link on

http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/node721.html

is broken.




--

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailatid=105470aid=1108490group_id=5470
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