Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
"Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" writes: > 12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti: >> bolega writes: >>> [PAIP] >>> >>> Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth >>> pursuing as a text ? >> >> Yes. >> > > I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the > year 1992. That's not "old". An old book is one that is falling in powder when you're reading it. Eg. the Quran manuscripts are "old". But any book since Gutenberg's invention is not old. For a book, that is. > I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial > Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future > the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have > discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy > anyway. I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet > received by mail the 3rd edition. > > But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to > study modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the > new:comp.lang.LISP newsgroup. > > Any good modern LISP textbooks out there? > > Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the > 3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.) If we said it is the last AI book written using Lisp, would that make it worth reading?There's nothing newer in AI! :-) -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 14, 8:29 am, t...@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) wrote: > Pascal Costanza writes: > > On 12/06/2010 19:36, bolega wrote: > > > Is there anything in this old > > > norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? > > > >http://norvig.com/paip.html > > > This "old" book by Peter Norvig is still one of the best Common Lisp > > introductions you can find, and has some excellent material that is not > > covered elsewhere. If you are interested in some fundamental AI concepts > > at the same time, this is one of the best choices. > > I agree. > > If you are adept at picking up programming languages, you can just start > with this one, since it does have an introduction to the language in the > early parts of the book. But for some people, the terse introduction is > a bit too barebones. It introduces the language but it isn't a > tutorial, so for a lot of people this would make a better second book. > > -- > Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute I think the guy wanted to know how to embed a Scheme or Lisp interpreter inside his C code and do useful things with it. === Vacation Responder The FAT per DIEM FBI bustards use our TAX PAYER MONEY and INCOMPETENCE is UNACCEPTABLE. = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQapkVCx1HI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXJ-k-iOg0M Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ? Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911 investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMcii8smxk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SZ2lxDJmdg There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian courts. FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of Non-whites in all parts of the world. Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY Conclusion : FBI bustards are RACIST and INcompetent. They could neither catch the ANTHRAX or 911 YANK/Jew criminals nor could they cover them up - whichever was their actual task. SLASH the SALARIES of FBI/CIA/NSA etc BUSTARDS into half all across tbe board, esp the whites/jew on the top. FBI Bustards failed to Catch BERNARD MADOFF even after that RACIST and UNPATRIOTIC Act FBI bustards failed to prevent ROMAN POLANSKY from absconding to europe and rapes. FBI bustards failed to prevent OKLAHOMA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
Andrew Philpot wrote: On 06/11/10 08:48, Elena wrote: On 10 Giu, 23:33, bolega wrote: I mean ordinary people, who may want to do things with their computers for scripting, tasks that python can do... Lisp is not for ordinary people, Python is. Python is for ordinary people. Lisp is for extraordinary people. I believe nearly all people have the potential to be extraordinary, but most choose to remain merely ordinary. Sigh. Some people believe they can fly and touch the skyyy JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 12, 9:02 pm, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" wrote: > 12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti: > > > bolega writes: > > >>> [PAIP] > > >> Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth > >> pursuing as a text ? > > > Yes. > > I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the > year 1992. > > I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial > Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future > the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have > discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway. > I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received > by mail the 3rd edition. > > But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study > modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the new:comp.lang.LISP > newsgroup. > > Any good modern LISP textbooks out there? > > Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the > 3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.) > > kind regards, Antti Ylikoski > Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. Antti, did you forget to mention that in your love for the author and publisher you paid an extra tip ;) ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
13.6.2010 7:02, Antti "Andy" Ylikoski kirjoitti: 12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti: bolega writes: [PAIP] Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? Yes. I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the year 1992. I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway. I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received by mail the 3rd edition. But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the news:comp.lang.LISP newsgroup. Any good modern LISP textbooks out there? Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the 3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.) kind regards, Antti Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. I answer my own question: it is a very good idea to visit the AAAI site http://www.aaai.org and purchase several conference proceedings of the biennal AAAI conference. -- This is for those who want something more non-basic than a textbook. kind regards, Antti J. Ylikoski (Dislaimer: in the LISP newsgroup this is almost off topic) PS. Also see the IJCAI biennal conference proceedings, from the Google or the Bing. Idem -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti: bolega writes: [PAIP] Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? Yes. I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the year 1992. I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway. I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received by mail the 3rd edition. But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the new:comp.lang.LISP newsgroup. Any good modern LISP textbooks out there? Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the 3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.) kind regards, Antti Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 12, 1:14 pm, nanothermite911fbibustards wrote: > On Jun 12, 12:57 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) > wrote: > > > > > George Neuner writes: > > > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:57:08 +0300, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" > > > wrote: > > > >>OT: (very Off Topic.) > > >>I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. > > > > Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many > > > professional fund managers? > > >http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dart-throwing-chimp-still-making-mon... > > > > The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and > > > far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might > > > look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important > > > industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction, > > > tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc. > > > > I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day. > > > Me too. At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and > > would have no use for our painfully spared dollars. > > > -- > > __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ > > Are we really so sure to be that off topic ? > > What about the sweet Bernard Madoff ? how to get off topic - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQapkVCx1HI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXJ-k-iOg0M Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ? Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911 investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMcii8smxk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SZ2lxDJmdg There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian courts. FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of Non-whites in all parts of the world. Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 12, 12:57 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > George Neuner writes: > > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:57:08 +0300, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" > > wrote: > > >>OT: (very Off Topic.) > >>I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. > > > Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many > > professional fund managers? > >http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dart-throwing-chimp-still-making-mon... > > > The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and > > far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might > > look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important > > industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction, > > tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc. > > > I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day. > > Me too. At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and > would have no use for our painfully spared dollars. > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ Are we so sure to go so much off topic to SEC and Bernard Madoff ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQapkVCx1HI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXJ-k-iOg0M Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ? Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911 investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMcii8smxk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SZ2lxDJmdg There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian courts. FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of Non-whites in all parts of the world. Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 12, 12:57 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > George Neuner writes: > > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:57:08 +0300, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" > > wrote: > > >>OT: (very Off Topic.) > >>I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. > > > Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many > > professional fund managers? > >http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dart-throwing-chimp-still-making-mon... > > > The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and > > far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might > > look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important > > industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction, > > tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc. > > > I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day. > > Me too. At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and > would have no use for our painfully spared dollars. > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ Are we really so sure to be that off topic ? What about the sweet Bernard Madoff ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
George Neuner writes: > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:57:08 +0300, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" > wrote: > >>OT: (very Off Topic.) >>I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. > > Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many > professional fund managers? > http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dart-throwing-chimp-still-making-monkey-of-internet-funds?pagenumber=2 > > > The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and > far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might > look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important > industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction, > tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc. > > I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day. Me too. At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and would have no use for our painfully spared dollars. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
bolega writes: > > > [PAIP] > > Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth > pursuing as a text ? Yes. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 12/06/2010 19:36, bolega wrote: Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? http://norvig.com/paip.html This "old" book by Peter Norvig is still one of the best Common Lisp introductions you can find, and has some excellent material that is not covered elsewhere. If you are interested in some fundamental AI concepts at the same time, this is one of the best choices. Pascal -- My website: http://p-cos.net Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 12/06/2010 19:36, bolega wrote: What was your main reason for picking the Allegro (commercial) as opposed to one of the open source ones ? Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? http://norvig.com/paip.html My favorite Common Lisp environment is LispWorks, which is a commercial offering, but I regularly deal with many other Common Lisp implementations as well, including both commercial ones and open source ones, due to my role as a maintainer of a compatibility layer that is widely used. When I started using Common Lisp a couple of years ago, I started with a commercial environment (Macintosh Common Lisp back then). The main reason was that this allowed me to focus on learning the language, while being able to use an IDE that was relatively close to what other IDEs offered in a familiar way. Back then, it seemed too much of a hassle to set up an environment using Emacs + some open source Common Lisp implementation, which was (and still is) the most widely used choice in a pure open source setting. I still believe that this is a major strength of the commercial systems, that you have a mostly hassle-free set up and can directly go into learning and/or programming in Common Lisp, without having to install, set up, and/or learn other tools, which may be non-trivial. (Of course, if you are already used to using Emacs, for example, this may be less of a problem for you.) Some people have the fear that there is a risk of a vendor lock-in if you go the commercial route. However, that's not really true: The portability of Common Lisp code across different implementations is excellent, and it is very hard to paint yourself into a corner. Since the commercial systems also provide free editions, which have some limitations but are usually more than good enough for learning purposes, you can also decide to just use them for learning, and then still make your mind up later on which implementation you eventually go with - at a stage when you can make a well-informed, and thus better choice. In fact, it seems to me that it's quite common that Common Lisp users do use several implementations on a regular basis, taking advantage of their various strengths depending on the task at hand. Just my €0.02. Pascal -- My website: http://p-cos.net Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:57:08 +0300, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" wrote: >OT: (very Off Topic.) >I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many professional fund managers? http://www.marketwatch.com/story/dart-throwing-chimp-still-making-monkey-of-internet-funds?pagenumber=2 The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction, tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc. I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 12, 2:02 am, "Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski" wrote: > 10.6.2010 23:14, bolega kirjoitti: > > > > > Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real > > world programming ? > > >http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation > > > Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . > > > The criteria is : > > > libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving > > needs. > > > Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as > > javascript, python etc. > > > I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its > > architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures > > and operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists<=> n-ary > > tree<=> binary tree<=> linked-list<=> dictionary<=> task-subtask, > > and implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level > > the indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. > > > I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries > > and shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in > > his books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It > > syntax enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice > > or sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code > > readability. > > > Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to > > justify the habit of excessively using it. > > > Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of > > programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily > > available code of the elementary interpreter. > > > Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there > > quality implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge > > of these so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very > > good. > > > Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to > > its man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I > > have never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people > > are doing it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public > > distros or these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. > > > Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the > > books - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. > > > Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as > > on this page ? > > >http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope > > > Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along > > XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? > > > Thanks > > I have used several available LISP systems such as the Gigamonkeys CLISP > Lispbox, and the Clozure Common LISP. > > The system which I currently am using is the Franz Allegro Common LISP. > It is a commercial product; and so far I have had no problems with the > Allegro. (NB: I am using the Express version. I feel that the full > scale commercial license is not exceedingly expensive.) > > (Right now I'm studying and working with the exercises in Peter Norvig's > book Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. I have done 16 > of the 25 chapters.) > > This is not an advertisement. If someone wishes to criticize that > product, or if someone would like to suggest some other equally usable > implementation, of course please feel free to do so. > > regards, Antti J. Ylikoski > Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. What was your main reason for picking the Allegro (commercial) as opposed to one of the open source ones ? Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ? http://norvig.com/paip.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
12.6.2010 13:04, vanekl kirjoitti: Antti "Andy" Ylikoski wrote: snip Maybe it could be a good idea for someone to write an academic study of all these available Lisp implementations. Even Interlisp still lives, as it was recently noted in this newsgroup. (I did not check the Google. Has someone alredy done so? Ie. studied the existing many Lisp implementations?) regards, Antti J. Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html You bring up a good point -- there are so many mature lisp implementations that you can "jump" implementations until you find one that meets your needs. -- Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks? OT: (very Off Topic.) Yes, I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments. "You shall know the truth, And the truth shall make you free." -- Quotation from the news:alt.politics.org.CIA newsgroup. (whether they are or are not affiliated with The Company, I will leave for the reader as a exercise.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
Antti "Andy" Ylikoski wrote: snip > Maybe it could be a good idea for someone to write an academic study > of all these available Lisp implementations. Even Interlisp still > lives, as it was recently noted in this newsgroup. (I did not check > the Google. Has someone alredy done so? Ie. studied the existing > many Lisp implementations?) > > regards, Antti J. Ylikoski > Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html You bring up a good point -- there are so many mature lisp implementations that you can "jump" implementations until you find one that meets your needs. -- Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
12.6.2010 12:02, Antti "Andy" Ylikoski kirjoitti: 10.6.2010 23:14, bolega kirjoitti: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . The criteria is : libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving needs. Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as javascript, python etc. I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures and operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists<=> n-ary tree<=> binary tree<=> linked-list<=> dictionary<=> task-subtask, and implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level the indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries and shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in his books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It syntax enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice or sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code readability. Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to justify the habit of excessively using it. Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily available code of the elementary interpreter. Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there quality implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge of these so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very good. Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to its man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I have never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people are doing it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public distros or these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the books - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as on this page ? http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? Thanks I have used several available LISP systems such as the Gigamonkeys CLISP Lispbox, and the Clozure Common LISP. The system which I currently am using is the Franz Allegro Common LISP. It is a commercial product; and so far I have had no problems with the Allegro. (NB: I am using the Express version. I feel that the full scale commercial license is not exceedingly expensive.) (Right now I'm studying and working with the exercises in Peter Norvig's book Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. I have done 16 of the 25 chapters.) This is not an advertisement. If someone wishes to criticize that product, or if someone would like to suggest some other equally usable implementation, of course please feel free to do so. regards, Antti J. Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. You said that you also want one implementation from open-source. Amongst these, the best one according to my experience is the Clozure Commmon Lisp. (Disclaimer: I have not used the Embeddable Common Lisp, and not the Armed Bear Common Lisp, and not the Clojure Commmon Lisp. The reason for this is the fact that after beginnninng to use the Allegro, I felt that I need not personally test any more Lisp implementations.) Maybe it could be a good idea for someone to write an academic study of all these available Lisp implementations. Even Interlisp still lives, as it was recently noted in this newsgroup. (I did not check the Google. Has someone alredy done so? Ie. studied the existing many Lisp implementations?) regards, Antti J. Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
10.6.2010 23:14, bolega kirjoitti: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . The criteria is : libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving needs. Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as javascript, python etc. I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures and operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists<=> n-ary tree<=> binary tree<=> linked-list<=> dictionary<=> task-subtask, and implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level the indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries and shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in his books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It syntax enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice or sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code readability. Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to justify the habit of excessively using it. Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily available code of the elementary interpreter. Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there quality implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge of these so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very good. Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to its man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I have never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people are doing it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public distros or these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the books - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as on this page ? http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? Thanks I have used several available LISP systems such as the Gigamonkeys CLISP Lispbox, and the Clozure Common LISP. The system which I currently am using is the Franz Allegro Common LISP. It is a commercial product; and so far I have had no problems with the Allegro. (NB: I am using the Express version. I feel that the full scale commercial license is not exceedingly expensive.) (Right now I'm studying and working with the exercises in Peter Norvig's book Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. I have done 16 of the 25 chapters.) This is not an advertisement. If someone wishes to criticize that product, or if someone would like to suggest some other equally usable implementation, of course please feel free to do so. regards, Antti J. Ylikoski Helsinki, Finland, the E.U. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
tfgordon writes: > Consider Clojure: http://clojure.org/ > > You might want to watch one of these videos for an overview: > > http://clojure.blip.tv/ > > There is also evidence that Clojure is currently the most popular > Lisp, more "popular" than Scheme or Common Lisp, whatever that means: > > http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp,+scheme+language,+clojure Maybe you can derive that the trend for Clojure is better (not surprisingly given its youth), but using such searches for guessing absolute numbers is meaningless. For example, if you compare "Scheme language" and "Clojure language", you don't see Clojure at all. Nicolas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
Consider Clojure: http://clojure.org/ You might want to watch one of these videos for an overview: http://clojure.blip.tv/ There is also evidence that Clojure is currently the most popular Lisp, more "popular" than Scheme or Common Lisp, whatever that means: http://www.google.com/trends?q=common+lisp,+scheme+language,+clojure -Tom G. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 11 Giu, 20:03, Chris Hulan wrote: > Haven't used it but Racket (http://racket-lang.org/) looks to be a new > and improved Scheme I have checked it out and I don't recommend it to others. Racket is not Scheme anymore (it can't use SLIB, which relies on common Scheme facilities). Racket is a language and an environment on their own. For instance: debugging facilities are hidden into its IDE, therefore you'll have to leave your debugging environment of choice. Yes, you can run a REpL outside of its IDE, but you can't do much more than that. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Chris Hulan wrote: > Haven't used it but Racket (http://racket-lang.org/) looks to be a new > and improved Scheme > The language isn't new, just the name. Racket is the language formerly known as PLT Scheme. They decided that they made enough changes from R5RS that they should rename it. That way, when people ask questions, it's clear that they're talking about the PLT variant of Scheme and not the main standard. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
Haven't used it but Racket (http://racket-lang.org/) looks to be a new and improved Scheme -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 06/11/10 08:48, Elena wrote: On 10 Giu, 23:33, bolega wrote: I mean ordinary people, who may want to do things with their computers for scripting, tasks that python can do... Lisp is not for ordinary people, Python is. Python is for ordinary people. Lisp is for extraordinary people. I believe nearly all people have the potential to be extraordinary, but most choose to remain merely ordinary. Sigh. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 10 Giu, 23:33, bolega wrote: > I mean ordinary people, who may want to do things with their computers > for scripting, tasks that python can do... Lisp is not for ordinary people, Python is. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:14:01 -0700, bolega wrote: > Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as > javascript, python etc. Generally, it is advisable to cross-post questions like this to at least 50 other language newsgroups. For example, you are not giving Ruby users a fair chance to compare their language to Lisp, Java, and Python. Also, you missed Fortran! The guiding principle should be to choose a wide range of languages, the more disparate the better. OTOH, I applaud the lack of specificity. Lesser minds would have asked about a specific Lisp dialect, such as CL. Such things should be avoided, as they focus the discussion unnecessarily. Cheers, Tamas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) writes: > What applets? Have you ever seen a java applet? Last time I saw one > it must have been fifteen years ago. I see one each time I log into my internet banking service. Unfortunately. -- (espen) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 10, 8:24 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > What applets? Have you ever seen a java applet? Last time I saw one > it must have been fifteen years ago. I have a Java applet that I use for GUI front end on some of my Lisp work - when HTML forms and pages aren't enough because I want to push to the display. It reads strings from a TCP socket connected back to the Lisp application. I used the Java introspection features to interpret limited Lispy syntax: j-exp --> ( ) --> * --> j-exp where the is some member subclass or member function or variable. If there is an argument list, then if a member function named is found it called with the arguments, which must be constants. If there is no member function of name , then if there is a member scalar variable of name , then the first is coerced and assigned to that member variable. On the other hand, if there is a nested j-exp, then is taken as a member class variable, and the process starts over with that variable as context. You subclass this applet to add GUI to it, and you better like Java. Any GUI listeners in the applet have prints that send similar string expressions back to the Lisp app, which is also a subclassed from a simple prototype, and the methods are called with the instance as the first argument. Instances are generated as web browsers connect to startup routines published via paserve. N e e d l e s s t o s a y , the Java introspection side, along with the parsing of the expressions (which is about as easy of a grammar as you can get), took about 3 days, while the Lisp side took about 10 minutes to write the 5 lines needed for READing and calling APPLY. (So far I avoid JavaScript - so this whole qooxlisp thing, I don't know. Although I understand no need to actually write JavaScript, but still I try to avoid running it in the browser. But I don't know, cells sounds good to me, so this qooxlisp thing might end up changing my ways...) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
bolega writes: > On Jun 10, 2:51 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) > wrote: >> bolega writes: >> > Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real >> > world programming ? >> >> What's the real world? >> What's real world programming? >> >> -- >> __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ > > I mean ordinary people, who may want to do things with their computers Ah, ordinary people. Then the answer is easy: iPhone and iPad. That's computers for ordinary people, and very good at that! > for scripting, tasks that python can do, possibly when a language is > weak and another has library, then use some function from there even > if it is compiled. Notice that for a library to work with python, python requires that it be put under a format acceptable to python. In the lisp world, we never imagined to be able to force people to adapt their libraries to our needs and requimenets. We have FFI, and we try very hard to work with all sort of random libraries whatever their implementation language and quality, as if we were mere C programs. Sometimes with success, sometimes with failure. That said, given that the requirements of lisp and of python are similar, any library that is pythonified, can be integrated in the lisp environments easily, automatically even, it should only require some coding if it's not already done. > A set of work around techniques will always be > needed. Things that perl does, Ie. being part of the problem. Again, you could search cll archives about that (using Erik Naggum as author this time). Or you could use this: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/ http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3163193555464...@naggum.no.html > python does, failing at meta programming. > bash does failing at anything but oneliner "scripts". > things like java applets for various animations What applets? Have you ever seen a java applet? Last time I saw one it must have been fifteen years ago. > possibly some unoptimized but fast protyping of parsers Optimized parser generators were developed 30 years ago. What's your problem? > to fix files or convert formats etc. a wide > array of user tasks. files to be fixed and format convertion are not user tasks. They're programming tasks, if they're not management problems in the first place. Therefore you need a programming language, to write programs, to fix files, and to convert formats. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Jun 10, 2:51 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > bolega writes: > > Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real > > world programming ? > > What's the real world? > What's real world programming? > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ I mean ordinary people, who may want to do things with their computers for scripting, tasks that python can do, possibly when a language is weak and another has library, then use some function from there even if it is compiled. A set of work around techniques will always be needed. Things that perl does, python does, bash does etc. things like java applets for various animations etc. possibly some unoptimized but fast protyping of parsers to fix files or convert formats etc. a wide array of user tasks. Sorry, I dont intend any flame wars ... as a general statement ... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:14:01 -0700, bolega wrote: > Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real > world programming ? > > http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation > > Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . > > The criteria is : > > libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving > needs. > > Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as > javascript, python etc. > > I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its > architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures and > operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists <=> n-ary tree <=> > binary tree <=> linked-list <=> dictionary <=> task-subtask, and > implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level the > indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. > > I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries and > shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in his > books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It syntax > enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice or > sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code > readability. > > Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to > justify the habit of excessively using it. > > Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of > programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily > available code of the elementary interpreter. > > Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there quality > implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge of these > so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very good. > > Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to its > man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I have > never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people are doing > it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public distros or > these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. > > Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the books > - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. > > Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as > on this page ? > > http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope > > Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along > XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? > > Thanks if we do all of the above will we also receive the grade & qualification? what exam is it for anyway? -- Finagle's Seventh Law: The perversity of the universe tends toward a maximum. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
bolega writes: > Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real > world programming ? What's the real world? What's real world programming? -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
bolega wrote: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . ACL and SBCL The criteria is : libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving needs. Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as javascript, python etc. It's better. kt I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures and operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists <=> n-ary tree <=> binary tree <=> linked-list <=> dictionary <=> task-subtask, and implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level the indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries and shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in his books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It syntax enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice or sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code readability. Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to justify the habit of excessively using it. Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily available code of the elementary interpreter. Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there quality implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge of these so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very good. Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to its man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I have never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people are doing it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public distros or these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the books - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as on this page ? http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? Thanks -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 10/06/2010 23:51, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: bolega writes: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? What's the real world? What's real world programming? I guess somebody's just enjoying flame wars too much. Pascal -- My website: http://p-cos.net Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation Kindly pick one from commercial and one from open-source . The criteria is : libraries, gui interface and builder, libraries for TCP, and evolving needs. Please compare LISP and its virtues with other languages such as javascript, python etc. I put javascript in the context that it is very similar in its architecture (homoiconic ie same representation for data-structures and operations, ie hierarchical, which means nested-lists <=> n-ary tree <=> binary tree <=> linked-list <=> dictionary <=> task-subtask, and implicitly based on what C calls pointers, and at machine level the indirect addressing of memory) to lisp family. I put python in the context that it has the most extensive libraries and shares the build-fix virtue of lisp highlighted by Paul Graham in his books. Python is touted for its rapid prototyping of guis. It syntax enforces stable format which guards against programmer malice or sloppiness - so that there is a certain level of legacy code readability. Both have eval but not clear what is the implementation efficiency to justify the habit of excessively using it. Certainly, lisp/scheme are excellent for learning the concepts of programming languages due to its multi-paradigm nature and readily available code of the elementary interpreter. Is there an IDE for these lispish-scheming languages ? Is there quality implementation for Eclipse ? Emacs pre-supposes some knowledge of these so that newbie can get stuck. Also, emacs help is not very good. Is there a project whereby the internal help of emacs (analogous to its man pages) are being continuously being updated AND shared ? I have never seen updates to the help. Perhaps, the commercial people are doing it, even from the posts of the newsgroups, but the public distros or these newsgroups have NEVER made such an announcement. Explanations integrated into the help are more important than the books - its like the wikipedia incorporated into emacs. Is there support for the color highlighting of the code by hovering as on this page ? http://community.schemewiki.org/?lexical-scope Which book/paper has the briefest minimal example of gui design along XML nested/hiearchical elements with event-listeners for lisp/scheme ? Thanks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ?
On 10/06/2010 22:51, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: bolega writes: Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for real world programming ? What's the real world? What's real world programming? What's this doing on c.l.py? Regards. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
