Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
24. Learn when not to reply to a troll (and bother several groups while doing so). 25. Learn when not to reply to a reply to a troll (and bother several groups while doing so). This could go on and on... ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try sending mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a response- in fact, no-one will read your mail. Then you come close to being RFC ignorant IMO. Couldn't be bothered to check it out. I don't care much about the RFC. I'd like to actually handle abusive users. But people report abuse for all kinds of strange reasons. It seems that believing in Darwinism is a form of abuse... go figure. That's actually my point. You are helping to ensure that abuse is tolerated. We stopped reading the abuse account for a reason. I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to determine that objectively. An excessive crosspost is hardly ever on topic. Now you are just being dishonest. I am sure that it was excessively crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time before you, Could be, oldest post I could find of myself: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn/msg/c1a1f50a7fc6f3a4? dmode=source But is this a pissing contest? No- if it were you would no longer have internet access. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [ .. ] An excessive crosspost is hardly ever on topic. Now you are just being dishonest. In what way? No- if it were you would no longer have internet access. Try me. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
but you know... one could simply hit the delete/skip button when you see a msg you don't like!!! or email/spam filters... or you can spend more time complaining.. in life, you gotta' learn to pick your battles... peace.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tagore Smith Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:43 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism) John Bokma wrote: Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your emails to his ISP are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources dedicated to dealing with real abuse. According to his hosting provider dreamhost: quote I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not hesitate to submit another report. /quote Precisely: you have wasted the time of someone who might otherwise have spent that time dealing with real abuse. You got the standard email sent out to placate people like you. That was my point. Try sending mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a response- in fact, no-one will read your mail. We just don't have the resources to deal with the easily offended. Too bad- we wouldn't mind handling real abuse, though it is unlikely given our selective set of users. I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to determine that objectively. I am sure that it was excessively crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time before you, and that he will still be posting to Usenet long after you have given up in disgust, no matter who you complain to. Reread it a few times, it might educate you (note the *cross-posting* and the *submit another report*) I think I've mentioned the crossposting in every message I have posted on this thread, and that I don't approve of crossposting. I'm not sure that you are in a position to educate me, and that you suggest that you are is, frankly, obnoxious. I've been civil so far. (Rest of your misinterpretation snipped). You can snip the important part, but that won't make the point go away. I happen to have been working in this industry for a long time. I have a lot of friends working at, and running, various enterprises. Some of those enterprises handle a lot of the internet's traffic, measured by packets at least. If I were really ethically impaired I could easily mess up internet access for a list of people I don't like. A call from a backbone provider is not as ignorable as a random email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I am not ethically impaired (or at least not ethically impaired in that way). Every young sysadmin learns a simple thing: you have disproportionate power, don't abuse it. Sometimes you have to read people's mail, to diagnose a problem. If they are into weird bondage stuff you avert your eyes, and you _never_ tell anyone (though I think you are allowed to look at them funny at the company picnic). If they are into child porn you call the cops, I think (the ethics are fuzzy here, but this is my conclusion). Crossposting is bad, unless it serves a specific purpose- Xah's post obviously doesn't. I dont like people reporting on Usenet posters to their ISPs, but... I can't really complain about that. Crossposting is not good, without a really good justification. But you are complaining about the content of his posts, and harassing his ISP based on that. That's not just bad, it is wicked. You can quote whatever you want from their emails, but I won't change my mind on this subject- Xah shouldn't crosspost, but otherwise he should be allowed to post. Would you like a Usenet campaign started to disrupt your internet access? You would be angry if that were done, and justifiably. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing really wrong with Xah's post is that it was crossposted to several groups. I think the content of repeatedly slandering people as criminals, because of technical disagreements, is even more abusive. tjr -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
bruce wrote: but you know... one could simply hit the delete/skip button when you see a msg you don't like!!! or email/spam filters... or you can spend more time complaining.. in life, you gotta' learn to pick your battles... peace.. Bruce: You may want to check your mail reader to make sure it responds to the thread. That would help people to skip messages. The thread in question got out of hand a long time ago (even before I jumped in ;), so it would help if related posts replied to the thread--at least thunderbird does not group your post with the thread. I'm guessing other news readers won't either. Also, there is no doubt that you will soon be chastised for top posting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Good thing there's absolutely nothing happening in the world of functional programming... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.orgspamvertized site Xah Lee has been around for a long time. I don't claim to understand him, but I don't think he is a troll- I think he is sincere in his postings, even if they are gibberish to everyone else. The only thing he is doing that should be considered abuse is crossposting to several groups (and he should certainly stop doing that). But he is only crossposting to about eight or so groups- hardly a Dave Rhodes incident. The great thing about Usenet is that it gives everyone a soapbox, even the slightly warped. Xah Lee should stop crossposting, but the fact that he is incoherent should not bar him from posting messages. He is actually a pretty interesting fellow when it comes to certain aspects of mathematics- I don't know if he still maintains his site about knot theory, but it was quite interesting, last time I looked. It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. Complaints to ISPs should be reserved for egregious abuse of the Usenet infrastructure. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith wrote: It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of follow-ups saying things amounting to stop this insane gibberish. Every bloody time. Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. (And yes, I do realise that I'm adding to the problem here, and indeed that I'm not following my own advice, nor heeding my own request.). -- chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Chris Uppal wrote: I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of follow-ups saying things amounting to stop this insane gibberish. ... well, this is the problem with killfiles. Some clients do allow you to kill all threads and subthreads that are started by anyone in your killfile. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. Cannot agree more! Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. Wholeheartedly agree! Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. So true! Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. Me too! Wake up, people ! You are not the victims, you are the problem. Shut up, /please/. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. No, since even if you kill file Xah Lee, he keeps wasting resources of people who have dedicated equipment to support Usenet. Complaints to ISPs should be reserved for egregious abuse of the Usenet infrastructure. I consider this abuse, and since the reports are taken serious atm, it looks like the ISP / USP / hosting provider *agree* with my POV. It's their call anyway. Maybe you like to look away when someone throws garbage on the street, thinking: who cares, it will be cleaned away by the end of the week. I don't like the sight of it, and also know that some garbage ends up in the sewer system, causing all kinds of problems. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Chris Uppal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of follow-ups saying things amounting to stop this insane gibberish. Every bloody time. Yup, and since that never stops, I make sure the source is going to dry up. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Uppal wrote: I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of follow-ups saying things amounting to stop this insane gibberish. ... well, this is the problem with killfiles. Some clients do allow you to kill all threads and subthreads that are started by anyone in your killfile. Yup, in short: stop Xah, and many people don't have to keep their kill files up to date, or switch to a different usenet client. Isn't it crazy that one person is allowed to create such a huge mess everytime he posts? -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Chris Uppal wrote: Tagore Smith wrote: It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into random debates. He always starts a new thread, which you can clearly identify by its subject line and who it is from. Xah Lee does not use sock puppets, nor does he otherwise conceal himself. He almost goes out of his way to be clearly identifiable. If you don't want to read Xah Lee, it is extremely easy to do so without killfile support. Intelligent people have learned that Xah Lee threads are extremely well identified and easy to avoid. So that leaves behind only complete idiots, and Xah Lee fans. :) the people who insist on making my killfile useless by posting loads of follow-ups saying things amounting to stop this insane gibberish. Every bloody time. This means that you are going into that thread anyway! Maybe if you un-killfiled Xah Lee, you would see the root article of the thread and then avoid stepping into it. Maybe you are stepping into these threads because you want to. If you truly don't like this stuff, maybe you should killfile by thread: kill the root article by Xah Lee, and, recursively, anything else which refers to it directly or transitively by parent references. But then, even that is superfluous if you have a threaded reader, since the thread is condensed to a single line on the screen which you have to explicitly open. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Kaz Kylheku [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into random debates. My point. Xah Lee doesn't follow netiquette, which is nowadays with quite some ISPs a ToS violation. [ ... ] If you truly don't like this stuff, maybe you should killfile by thread: kill the root article by Xah Lee, and, recursively, anything else which refers to it directly or transitively by parent references. I rather account kill by ISP :-D. Most trolls get the point after they have paid quite some money for several accounts. Saves me of maintaining kill files. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Kaz Kylheku wrote: Chris Uppal wrote: Tagore Smith wrote: It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. I'm inclined to agree. The problem is not Xah Lee (whom I have killfiled), but What is the point of killfiling Xah Lee? Xah Lee does not enter into random debates. The point is that Xah's posts seem to make some people angry. _I_ haven't killfiled him, as I generally enjoy his posts. It would be better, for all concerned, if the people who hate Xah either killfiled him or followed your advice about not opening his threads. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's much easier to use a killfile than to complain to an ISP, and I think that that should be the preferred response to messages you don't like. No, since even if you kill file Xah Lee, he keeps wasting resources of people who have dedicated equipment to support Usenet. Your responses are at least as wasteful (as are my responses to you, and as are most of the posts made to Usenet). Your emails to his ISP are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources dedicated to dealing with real abuse. Those resources are in much shorter supply than the resources dedicated to propagating Usenet posts. The only thing really wrong with Xah's post is that it was crossposted to several groups. But your objection seems to be less about the crossposting, and more about the content. Usenet is not, for the most part, moderated. If you want to control the content of what you read, I suggest that you start a blog, where you can ban comments you don't like, to your heart's content. Complaints to ISPs should be reserved for egregious abuse of the Usenet infrastructure. I consider this abuse, and since the reports are taken serious atm, it looks like the ISP / USP / hosting provider *agree* with my POV. Again, the only thing abusive about Xah's post is that he crossposted it. That you don't like/understand it does not make it abuse. If you were only complaining about the crossposting I would be on your side. It's their call anyway. Maybe you like to look away when someone throws garbage on the street, thinking: who cares, it will be cleaned away by the end of the week. No, if I liked to look away from that I wouldn't bother responding to you. don't like the sight of it, and also know that some garbage ends up in the sewer system, causing all kinds of problems. Your response is far more damaging than anything Xah has done. Usenet has, traditionally, been a not very friendly zone. All kinds of things get posted. Some of them piss me off. I don't go crying to people's ISPs when they post messages I disagree with. Again, if you want to control what gets posted, start a blog. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your emails to his ISP are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources dedicated to dealing with real abuse. According to his hosting provider dreamhost: quote I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not hesitate to submit another report. /quote Reread it a few times, it might educate you (note the *cross-posting* and the *submit another report*) The only thing really wrong with Xah's post is that it was crossposted to several groups. But your objection seems to be less about the crossposting, and more about the content. Your mistaken. I have reported it as excessive crossposting. (Rest of your misinterpretation snipped). -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith wrote: I generally enjoy his posts. You should be happy then that they have all been archived on his website for quite some time. I'm thinking of cross-posting Soren Keirkegaards _Either/Or_. Its been archived for a while now and is full of nonsensical ramblings, but I feel the need to post it for some attention starved reason. You might enjoy it when I put it up on your favorite newsgroup (and several other groups to boot). James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your emails to his ISP are far more wasteful- you are using up very scarce resources dedicated to dealing with real abuse. According to his hosting provider dreamhost: quote I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not hesitate to submit another report. /quote Precisely: you have wasted the time of someone who might otherwise have spent that time dealing with real abuse. You got the standard email sent out to placate people like you. That was my point. Try sending mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a response- in fact, no-one will read your mail. We just don't have the resources to deal with the easily offended. Too bad- we wouldn't mind handling real abuse, though it is unlikely given our selective set of users. I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to determine that objectively. I am sure that it was excessively crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time before you, and that he will still be posting to Usenet long after you have given up in disgust, no matter who you complain to. Reread it a few times, it might educate you (note the *cross-posting* and the *submit another report*) I think I've mentioned the crossposting in every message I have posted on this thread, and that I don't approve of crossposting. I'm not sure that you are in a position to educate me, and that you suggest that you are is, frankly, obnoxious. I've been civil so far. (Rest of your misinterpretation snipped). You can snip the important part, but that won't make the point go away. I happen to have been working in this industry for a long time. I have a lot of friends working at, and running, various enterprises. Some of those enterprises handle a lot of the internet's traffic, measured by packets at least. If I were really ethically impaired I could easily mess up internet access for a list of people I don't like. A call from a backbone provider is not as ignorable as a random email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I am not ethically impaired (or at least not ethically impaired in that way). Every young sysadmin learns a simple thing: you have disproportionate power, don't abuse it. Sometimes you have to read people's mail, to diagnose a problem. If they are into weird bondage stuff you avert your eyes, and you _never_ tell anyone (though I think you are allowed to look at them funny at the company picnic). If they are into child porn you call the cops, I think (the ethics are fuzzy here, but this is my conclusion). Crossposting is bad, unless it serves a specific purpose- Xah's post obviously doesn't. I dont like people reporting on Usenet posters to their ISPs, but... I can't really complain about that. Crossposting is not good, without a really good justification. But you are complaining about the content of his posts, and harassing his ISP based on that. That's not just bad, it is wicked. You can quote whatever you want from their emails, but I won't change my mind on this subject- Xah shouldn't crosspost, but otherwise he should be allowed to post. Would you like a Usenet campaign started to disrupt your internet access? You would be angry if that were done, and justifiably. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Tagore Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try sending mail to abuse at (any of my) desmesne(s). You won't get a response- in fact, no-one will read your mail. Then you come close to being RFC ignorant IMO. Couldn't be bothered to check it out. I'm not sure that Xah's post was offtopic, and I am not sure how to determine that objectively. An excessive crosspost is hardly ever on topic. I am sure that it was excessively crossposted. I also know that Xah was posting to Usenet a long time before you, Could be, oldest post I could find of myself: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn/msg/c1a1f50a7fc6f3a4? dmode=source But is this a pissing contest? and that he will still be posting to Usenet long after you have given up in disgust, no matter who you complain to. I doubt it. I am still here after 14 years. Crossposting is bad, unless it serves a specific purpose- Xah's post obviously doesn't. I dont like people reporting on Usenet posters to their ISPs, but... I can't really complain about that. Crossposting is not good, without a really good justification. But you are complaining about the content of his posts, and harassing his ISP based on that. Again, learn to read: I reported excessive crossposting, period. Would you like a Usenet campaign started to disrupt your internet access? You would be angry if that were done, and justifiably. Last time something like that happened the culprit lost his account. So be my guest. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
John Bokma wrote: harassing Usenet. (Did I just wrote smart?!) Tell me about bad English :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
gene tani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I leave that up to Xah's ISP/USP and hosting provider to decide :-D he's solidified position as top troll of 2003-2006 Maybe because people rather post a reply instead of sending an abuse report. Got this from Dreamhost (hosting provider): I have warned this user that excessive offtopic cross-posting is not allowed, and explained that if he doesn't quit he risks losing his account. If you (or anyone else) notice this in the future, please do not hesitate to submit another report. Since Xah was also yesterday complaining to me about harassment I guess something happened. In the past some others and I managed to have 10 out of 20 sites shut down from a solidified top troll. (Each rant had 20+ links to his sites) You know, just some sunlight is was really solidifies a troll :-D. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Xah Lee wrote: Criticism versus Constructive Criticism Xah Lee, 2003-01 A lot intelligent people are rather confused about criticism, especially in our “free-speech” free-for-all internet age. When they say “constructive criticisms are welcome” they mostly mean “bitching and complaints not welcome”. Rarely do people actually mean that “criticism without suggestion of possible solutions are not welcome” or “impolite criticism not welcome”. Such discernment is important. Wanton bitching as internet-using geeks are used to is not criticism is any form. People can be respected and make a living out of criticisms, called critics, but not bitching. And when one really value opinions, you often want criticism without qualifications. Just be happy that valuable criticisms may come to you free from the experts in the public. The instant you qualify what kind of feedback are welcome, your feedback is compromised. (this is particularly so for political or controversial subjects) One easy way for many of the unix geeks to understand this is the cryptology industry. If one really desires valuable criticisms that is polite or with solutions or “constructive” (whatever that means), one usually have to pay. This post is archived at: http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/criticism.html Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ Oh, God, not another one. -- The science of economics is the cleverest proof of free will yet constructed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135 posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.org spamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Dear John Bokma, This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. Thanks. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.orgspamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Xah Lee wrote: Dear John Bokma, This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. Thanks. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135 posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.org spamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day. Ooooh! (Waggles fingers beneath chin) Mark -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.orgspamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day. What might stop? I see one technical post every one or few weeks from Xah, followed by a dozen posts from self-appointed library-sushers such as Eli and library-shusher-shushers such as you and me, none of which are technical. The one technical post, whatever one thinks of it, creates no problem; what part of if you find the content worthless, just ignore it is not understood? Nothing, actually. The respondents just like shushing people. Back on topic for just a moment, Tilton's Law of Programming applies: Solve the real problem. So kudos for your shusher-shushing but... ...reporting Xah to spamcop would be an abuse of spamcop. Reporting Eli, yourself, and me, however, would be perfectly reasonable. :) love, peace, and quiet, kenny -- Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/ Have you ever been in a relationship? Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her minister husband, when asked if the couple had marital problems. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Mark Thomas anon writes: Xah Lee wrote: Dear John Bokma, This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. Thanks. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, God, not another one. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135 posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.org spamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day. Ooooh! (Waggles fingers beneath chin) Mark So now Xah is an expert on law in addition to emacs. What a guy. Gregm -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
On 26 Apr 2006 12:29:33 -0700, Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. and what you do Xah, is very close to spam, another form of harassment. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ reported ] What might stop? The excessive cross posting. I see one technical post every one or few weeks from Xah, followed by a dozen posts from self-appointed library-sushers such as Eli and library-shusher-shushers such as you and me, none of which are technical. The one technical post, whatever one thinks of it, creates no problem; It does, it's cross posted in too many groups that have no direct relation with each other, other then they are programming languages. Xah is trolling, you know it, I know it. what part of if you find the content worthless, just ignore it is not understood? Nothing, actually. If I see someone throwing garbage on the street, should I ignore it? It will blow away, or the street cleaners will pick it up. I do not ignore it. ...reporting Xah to spamcop would be an abuse of spamcop. You're mistaken. I don't report Xah to spamcop. Spamcop has nothing to do with Xah. I *do* report Xah to his ISP / USP and hosting provider though. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear John Bokma, This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. Which law? You have been harrassing severl groups for too long with your drivel and extremely badly written rants. I guess what you do comes way closer to harrassment then me trying to kick your ass. Lets hope some others join in and see who is going to win. Most trolls give up after they lose a handful of accounts, since it gets more and more expensive. Find a new hobby if CS is too hard. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Apr 2006 12:29:33 -0700, Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : This is a public notice that what you are trying to do is getting close to harrassment from the law's perspective. and what you do Xah, is very close to spam, another form of harassment. I leave that up to Xah's ISP/USP and hosting provider to decide :-D But I am sure that if a few people email, that Xah's harassment is going to stop soon. Unless he wants to burn some cash. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
On 25 Apr 2006 12:21:43 -0700 Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] waved a wand and this message magically appeared: Criticism versus Constructive Criticism GO AWAY. Noone wants to see this drivel. Put it on a website if you must. Otherwise shut the fuck up and leave us alone! -- http://www.munted.org.uk Take a nap, it saves lives. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Ken Tilton wrote: What might stop? Nauseating misuse of English. Annoying cross-posts. Newsgroup clutter. Shusher-Shusher-Shushers like me. -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ reported ] What might stop? The excessive cross posting. I see one technical post every one or few weeks from Xah, followed by a dozen posts from self-appointed library-sushers such as Eli and library-shusher-shushers such as you and me, none of which are technical. The one technical post, whatever one thinks of it, creates no problem; It does, it's cross posted in too many groups that have no direct relation with each other, other then they are programming languages. Xah is trolling, you know it, I know it. No, I do not know it. I have checked out his web site, and have been involved in threads with him on comp.lang.lisp. He takes seriously what he writes. whatever you think of it. and if he were a troll, he would respond to each and every shusher to increase the flames. in this case he just responded to someone who threatened him. meanwhile, some other genius has just shushed him. I think we are all aprt of an experiemnt in Usenet addiction. :) peace and quiet, ken -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Alex Buell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GO AWAY. Instead of cross posting more garbage, do as follows: Email a complaint to the email addresses you can look up yourself and include the entire message of Xah: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=72.231.179.135 posting host http://www.spamcop.net/sc?track=xahlee.org spamvertized site If enough people complain with both, it might stop one day, maybe very very soon. FYI: dreamhost (hosts xahlee.org) takes complaints very seriously, and has warned Xah Lee already :-D So please stop replying to his drivel, just complain. It will stop. Put it on a website if you must. Good point, I am sure Xah Lee is able to set up some blogging software. If he does it smart enough he might even attract more readers compared to harassing Usenet. (Did I just wrote smart?!) -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [Reported] (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and if he were a troll, he would respond to each and every shusher to increase the flames. There are several ways to troll. He writes up a rant, and let others do the flaming. He probably saves up his energy for the next rant. Like someone else wrote: put it on a website (he already does). Turn it into a blog, make people comment. But stop cross posting rants. in this case he just responded to someone who threatened him. Maybe because he got a not so nice email from his hosting provider ;-) -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Eli Gottlieb wrote: Xah Lee wrote: Criticism versus Constructive Criticism Xah Lee, 2003-01 +---+ .:\:\:/:/:. | PLEASE DO NOT |:.:\:\:/:/:.: | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=: | | '=(\ 9 9 /)=' | Thank you, | ( (_) ) | Management | /`-vvv-'\ +---+ / \ | |@@@ / /|,|\ \ | |@@@ /_// /^\ \\_\ @x@@x@| | |/ WW( ( ) )WW \/| |\| __\,,\ /,,/__ \||/ | | | jgs (__Y__) /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ == And worse: don't ever full quote them. jue -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (was Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism)
John Bokma wrote: Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I leave that up to Xah's ISP/USP and hosting provider to decide :-D he's solidified position as top troll of 2003-2006 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Ari Johnson wrote: Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip/ Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ? http://xahlee.org/ (This isn't constructive criticism, but just a question:) Are you the sum of your web page? Yes he is, the total value is zero. -- Nigel Rowe A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like.. rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Criticism versus Constructive Criticism Xah Lee, 2003-01 A lot intelligent people are rather confused about criticism, especially in our “free-speech” free-for-all internet age. When they say “constructive criticisms are welcome” they mostly mean “bitching and complaints not welcome”. Rarely do people actually mean that “criticism without suggestion of possible solutions are not welcome” or “impolite criticism not welcome”. Such discernment is important. Wanton bitching as internet-using geeks are used to is not criticism is any form. People can be respected and make a living out of criticisms, called critics, but not bitching. And when one really value opinions, you often want criticism without qualifications. Just be happy that valuable criticisms may come to you free from the experts in the public. The instant you qualify what kind of feedback are welcome, your feedback is compromised. (this is particularly so for political or controversial subjects) One easy way for many of the unix geeks to understand this is the cryptology industry. If one really desires valuable criticisms that is polite or with solutions or “constructive” (whatever that means), one usually have to pay. This post is archived at: http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/criticism.html Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A large amount of free, constructive criticism follows. 1. Learn where to post things. Criticism versus Constructive Criticism 2. Learn when to capitalize words in a title. Xah Lee, 2003-01 3. Learn when to post things. A lot intelligent people are rather confused about criticism, especially in our “free-speech” free-for-all internet age. When they say “constructive criticisms are welcome” they mostly mean “bitching and complaints not welcome”. Rarely do people actually mean that “criticism without suggestion of possible solutions are not welcome” or “impolite criticism not welcome”. 4. Try many. 5. Learn how to use commas. 6. Nobody says constructive criticisms are welcome. They use the singular, as should you. 7. Learn how to use commas. 8. Learn how to use parallel structure. Such discernment is important. Wanton bitching as internet-using geeks are used to is not criticism is any form. 9. Generally, the use of sentence forms like such noun is adjective is even frowned upon in legal writing anymore; but it is almost never appropriate to use the word bitching in the next sentence. People can be respected and make a living out of criticisms, called critics, but not bitching. And when one really value opinions, you often want criticism without qualifications. Just be happy that valuable criticisms may come to you free from the experts in the public. The instant you qualify what kind of feedback are welcome, your feedback is compromised. (this is particularly so for political or controversial subjects) 10. You're still insisting that criticism in the general sense is a plural thing. It is not. Also, these criticisms are not what we call critics. We call the people making them critics. I'd let this one slide but you bounce back and forth too many times in one sentence to get away with it. 11. Learn how to match a verb to its noun. 12. You still haven't figured out when to use criticisms. I'll give you another hint: nowhere within your writing. 13. Learn when your expert criticism is apropos and when it is not. 14. If you can't figure out when not to pluralize the word criticism, I don't know why I expect you to know when to use is instead of are. However, I still recommend you learn this not-so-subtle point of English grammar. 15. Sentences in parentheses are still sentences - capitalize and punctuate appropriately. 16. When you make a sweeping, general statement, it helps to support it with some kind of logically-related evidence. One easy way for many of the unix geeks to understand this is the cryptology industry. 17. Learn when to capitalize proper nouns. 18. The cryptology industry is not a way. It is an industry. Learn how to write clear sentences that use words in meaningful ways. One way to do this is to utilize verbs. If one really desires valuable criticisms that is polite or with solutions or “constructive” (whatever that means), one usually have to pay. 19. The rule is that third-person singular subjects take is and third-person plural subjects take are. You seem to have this backwards. 20. If you are offering a dissertation on constructive criticism, you ought to define the term rather than using a parenthetical shoulder-shrug like this. 21. Third-person singular subjects take has, not have. 22. When you write something, even when it is not welcome or not relevant to the place you post it, it is helpful to actually make a point rather than just making several statements of things which alternate between obvious and nonsensical. This post is archived at: http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/criticism.html 23. If something from three years ago is on the web, it is indexed by Google. If someone wants to read it, they will find it via Google. There is no need to post it on inappropriate newsgroups. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ (This isn't constructive criticism, but just a question:) Are you the sum of your web page? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Would these contestants please GET OFF THE LIST with their non-Python-related contentiousness? Mark F. Morss Principal Analyst, Market Risk American Electric Power Ari Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To Sent by: python-list@python.org python-list-bounc cc es+mfmorss=aep.co [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism 04/25/2006 03:39 PM Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A large amount of free, constructive criticism follows. 1. Learn where to post things. Criticism versus Constructive Criticism 2. Learn when to capitalize words in a title. Xah Lee, 2003-01 3. Learn when to post things. A lot intelligent people are rather confused about criticism, especially in our “free-speech” free-for-all internet age. When they say “constructive criticisms are welcome” they mostly mean “bitching and complaints not welcome”. Rarely do people actually mean that “criticism without suggestion of possible solutions are not welcome” or “impolite criticism not welcome”. 4. Try many. 5. Learn how to use commas. 6. Nobody says constructive criticisms are welcome. They use the singular, as should you. 7. Learn how to use commas. 8. Learn how to use parallel structure. Such discernment is important. Wanton bitching as internet-using geeks are used to is not criticism is any form. 9. Generally, the use of sentence forms like such noun is adjective is even frowned upon in legal writing anymore; but it is almost never appropriate to use the word bitching in the next sentence. People can be respected and make a living out of criticisms, called critics, but not bitching. And when one really value opinions, you often want criticism without qualifications. Just be happy that valuable criticisms may come to you free from the experts in the public. The instant you qualify what kind of feedback are welcome, your feedback is compromised. (this is particularly so for political or controversial subjects) 10. You're still insisting that criticism in the general sense is a plural thing. It is not. Also, these criticisms are not what we call critics. We call the people making them critics. I'd let this one slide but you bounce back and forth too many times in one sentence to get away with it. 11. Learn how to match a verb to its noun. 12. You still haven't figured out when to use criticisms. I'll give you another hint: nowhere within your writing. 13. Learn when your expert criticism is apropos and when it is not. 14. If you can't figure out when not to pluralize the word criticism, I don't know why I expect you to know when to use is instead of are. However, I still recommend you learn this not-so-subtle point of English grammar. 15. Sentences in parentheses are still sentences - capitalize and punctuate appropriately. 16. When you make a sweeping, general statement, it helps to support it with some kind of logically-related evidence. One easy way for many of the unix geeks to understand this is the cryptology industry. 17. Learn when to capitalize proper nouns. 18. The cryptology industry is not a way. It is an industry. Learn how to write clear sentences that use words in meaningful ways. One way to do this is to utilize verbs. If one really desires valuable criticisms that is polite or with solutions or “constructive” (whatever that means), one usually have to pay. 19. The rule is that third-person singular subjects take is and third-person plural subjects take are. You seem to have this backwards. 20. If you are offering a dissertation on constructive criticism, you ought to define the term rather than using a parenthetical shoulder-shrug like this. 21. Third-person singular subjects take has, not have. 22. When you write something, even when it is not welcome or not relevant to the place you post it, it is helpful to actually make a point rather than just making several statements of things which alternate between obvious and nonsensical
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Ari Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 24. Learn when not to reply to a troll (and bother several groups while doing so). -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Would these contestants please GET OFF THE LIST with their non-Python-related contentiousness? [snip long repost of the very stuff complained about] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A large amount of free, constructive criticism follows. Just the usual repetitive content free stream-of-consciousness material that Xah Lee is notorious for. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Criticism vs Constructive Criticism
On 25 Apr 2006 12:21:43 -0700, Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Criticism versus Constructive Criticism I think you would do better to put this sort of thing on a website rather than post it in a newsgroup. It is too pretentious for a newsgroup. Newsgroups are about question and answer. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
