Re: python newbie: some surprises
On May 8, 2:06 pm, v4vijayakumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. > > 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and > spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. The problem is in tab not Python, there is no convention on how many spaces should tab be treated, python (by default) assumes a tab to be equal to 8 spaces, but not everyone thinks the same, some code editor might consider it as 4 spaces or 2 spaces. In most python-oriented code editor, a tab might be automatically replaced with four spaces. > 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods No, python doesn't requires self to be passed to all instance methods, python passes the "current instance" of a class to the first argument of a function inside the class, this first argument can be named anything, although it is traditionally named as self. In other programming languages, this current instance is implicitly passed (Me in VB, this in C/C++). > and I missed ":" often. :) Not in your smiley though. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Kees Bakker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So far, I have seen only one editor that understands the difference between > TABs and indentation, and that is Emacs. Most vi clones (and the original vi) do too! :-) E.g. in the clone I use (vile) there are independent settings for tabstop and shiftwidth. In addition you can tell the editor to change tabs to spaces (or not) as you wish. -- Chris Green -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Kees Bakker wrote: So far, I have seen only one editor that understands the difference between TABs and indentation, and that is Emacs. Oh, well... in .vimrc: autocmd FileType python set tabstop=8 autocmd FileType python set softtabstop=4 autocmd FileType python set expandtab -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Gabriel Genellina wrote: > En Fri, 09 May 2008 10:37:30 -0300, v4vijayakumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribió: > >> On May 9, 1:48 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> v4vijayakumar a écrit : >>> >>> > When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. >>> >>> > 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and >>> > spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. >>> >>> Then you have a problem with your code editor - not with Python. >>> >> >> Editors can not be wrong. :) >> >> I think there should be some way to say python compiler, to consider >> tab and two blank spaces equal, when tab space = 2. > > It already considers tab = 8 spaces, and when invoked with -tt it rejects > mixed tabs+spaces. (I would like Python rejected *any* tab used for > indenting...) > There is a tool 'reindent.py' -somewhere on your Python install-, and an > indentation checker 'tabnanny.py' (this one in the standard library). > That's one of the reasons why I like Python :-) Still too many people don't know that you must set a TAB to 8 in your editor. Anything other than 8 for a TAB will, at some point, confuse somebody. Don't confuse indentation with TAB setting. Many editors are not helpfull either. Pydev, for example, has a setting for TAB, but it is used for indentation. It is just luck (I think) that pydev has an option to say that you only want spaces. (Take a look at the main preferences of Pydev.) So far, I have seen only one editor that understands the difference between TABs and indentation, and that is Emacs. -- Kees -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
En Fri, 09 May 2008 10:37:30 -0300, v4vijayakumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > On May 9, 1:48 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> v4vijayakumar a écrit : >> >> > When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. >> >> > 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and >> > spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. >> >> Then you have a problem with your code editor - not with Python. >> > > Editors can not be wrong. :) > > I think there should be some way to say python compiler, to consider > tab and two blank spaces equal, when tab space = 2. It already considers tab = 8 spaces, and when invoked with -tt it rejects mixed tabs+spaces. (I would like Python rejected *any* tab used for indenting...) There is a tool 'reindent.py' -somewhere on your Python install-, and an indentation checker 'tabnanny.py' (this one in the standard library). -- Gabriel Genellina -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 15:08 +, Yves Dorfsman wrote:
> Gabriel Genellina wrote:
>
> >> I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an
> >> equivalent of ':', for example, do you find this difficult to read:
> >>
> >> if a == 3
> >>do_something()
> >>
> >>
> >> if a == 3: do_something()
> >
> > Yes, it could be done, there are no technical reasons to always force to
> > use ":". But AFAIK the main reasons to keep ":" are internal consistency
> > (an inner block always starts with ":"; incidentally, that's easier to
> > handle for editors) and legibility (the ":" stands for itself and has a
> > meaning)
>
> Legibility ?
> But one could make the same argument for curly brackets, and we seem to be
> doing fine without them !
>
> I have become so used to the power of indenting in python that I keep
> forgetting the colon, and this is getting worse as I do more python, not
> better. Maybe I'll write myself a "pre-compiler" that add the colons where
> the compiler needs them :-)
>
>
> Yves.
> http://www.SollerS.ca
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
Have you considered the following:
if (x == 4 and (y in
[len(x) for x in
foo if x**2 > 23]
or y < 2) and z.strip().endswith('z') and
remove_first(w))
attach_list(q, r)
reject(x)
A colon on the correct line would help readability quite a bit.
Yeah, I know I made it pretty ugly to begin with, and there are ways to
improve it without the colon, but still, just because it could be
removed doesn't necessarily mean it should.
Cheers,
Cliff
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Gabriel Genellina wrote: I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an equivalent of ':', for example, do you find this difficult to read: if a == 3 do_something() if a == 3: do_something() Yes, it could be done, there are no technical reasons to always force to use ":". But AFAIK the main reasons to keep ":" are internal consistency (an inner block always starts with ":"; incidentally, that's easier to handle for editors) and legibility (the ":" stands for itself and has a meaning) Legibility ? But one could make the same argument for curly brackets, and we seem to be doing fine without them ! I have become so used to the power of indenting in python that I keep forgetting the colon, and this is getting worse as I do more python, not better. Maybe I'll write myself a "pre-compiler" that add the colons where the compiler needs them :-) Yves. http://www.SollerS.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
On May 9, 1:48 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: > v4vijayakumar a écrit : > > > When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. > > > 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and > > spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. > > Then you have a problem with your code editor - not with Python. > Editors can not be wrong. :) I think there should be some way to say python compiler, to consider tab and two blank spaces equal, when tab space = 2. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Yves Dorfsman a écrit : (snip) I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an equivalent of ':', Technically, yes. OTHO, the ':' helps editors doing proper indentation. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Yves Dorfsman a écrit : Mensanator wrote: 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods Who uses methods? Is this a joke ? Very probably. What are the alternatives ? Err... functions ?-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
v4vijayakumar a écrit : When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. Then you have a problem with your code editor - not with Python. 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods Nope. Python requires that function used as instance methods take the instance as first argument (and that functions used as classmethods take the class as first argument). It's the method object's duty to actually pass the appropriate object to the function. The rational is that it allows to built methods above two more generic constructs (namely: functions and the descriptor protocol) instead of having to special-case them. and I missed ":" often. :) Your editor should not indent the next line then. Either you failed to correctly configure your editor, or it's broken. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
En Fri, 09 May 2008 01:47:49 -0300, Yves Dorfsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an equivalent of ':', for example, do you find this difficult to read: if a == 3 do_something() if a == 3: do_something() And surely, it should be easy to parse by the compiler. Yes, it could be done, there are no technical reasons to always force to use ":". But AFAIK the main reasons to keep ":" are internal consistency (an inner block always starts with ":"; incidentally, that's easier to handle for editors) and legibility (the ":" stands for itself and has a meaning) -- Gabriel Genellina -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
On May 8, 11:47�pm, Yves Dorfsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mensanator wrote: > >> 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods > > > Who uses methods? > > Is this a joke ? Yes. > What are the alternatives ? > > > > >> and I missed ":" often. :) > > > Try using something like Seed7, where you have to use "then" with > > "if" and "do" with "while" and "end" in every block. Maybe you'll > > come to appreciate significant whitespace and ":". > > I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an equivalent of > � ':', for example, do you find this difficult to read: > > if a == 3 > � �do_something() > > if a == 3: do_something() > > And surely, it should be easy to parse by the compiler. If they were to chane it, I wouldn't complain. I just think it doesn't deserve complaints when compared to other systems. > > Yves.http://www.SollerS.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
Mensanator wrote: 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods Who uses methods? Is this a joke ? What are the alternatives ? and I missed ":" often. :) Try using something like Seed7, where you have to use "then" with "if" and "do" with "while" and "end" in every block. Maybe you'll come to appreciate significant whitespace and ":". I see the point of the OP. Couldn't the new-line be used as an equivalent of ':', for example, do you find this difficult to read: if a == 3 do_something() if a == 3: do_something() And surely, it should be easy to parse by the compiler. Yves. http://www.SollerS.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
On May 8, 2:06 am, v4vijayakumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. > > 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and > spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. You must type inconsistently. I never had such a problem even when I used to use Notepad. > > 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods Who uses methods? > > and I missed ":" often. :) Try using something like Seed7, where you have to use "then" with "if" and "do" with "while" and "end" in every block. Maybe you'll come to appreciate significant whitespace and ":". -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python newbie: some surprises
v4vijayakumar wrote: When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. Even the standard editor Idle tries to guess the intendation, so this was never a problem for me. Though these days I use PyDev a lot. 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods A lot of editors help you with these 'unnecessary' things by auto-completion might be worth looking into one. and I missed ":" often. :) Still do after 5 years of python abuse :-) -- mph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
python newbie: some surprises
When I started coding in python, these two things surprised me. 1. my code is inconsistently indented with the combination of tabs and spaces. Even lines looked intended, but it is not. 2. python requires to pass "self" to all instance methods and I missed ":" often. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
