Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
kery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Any schedule for publication of 2nd Ed? I just bought 1st Ed. The 2nd edition Python Cookbook appears to be on-track for PyCon (late March) for the very first ink-on-paper -- probably April in bookstores. The 2nd edition Python in a Nutshell is more doubtful, being just started and all that -- OSCON is a possible target, but it's way too early to say if I'll manage to hit it. In both cases, the 2nd ed is meant to focus on versions 2.3 and 2.4 of Python, while the 1st ed covered all versions up to 2.2 included. So, if you're still interested in using Python 2.2 or older versions, you may want to stock up on 1st editions of Cookbook and Nutshell; if you're only interested in 2.3 and following versions, in the case of the Cookbook waiting 2-3 months for the 2nd ed may be worth it, while, in the case of the Nutshell, I would definitely not recommend a far longer and more uncertain waiting period of 7 months or more. Moreover, the changes in the Nutshell will be less than those in the Cookbook were: the Cookbook has changed way more than 50% of its contents, the Nutshell will change substantially less (according to current plans: I'll be able to give more precise information later this year). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Steven Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely agree. I'm also waiting for an advanced Python/project management book that helps folks out with large-scale projects. I won't schedule that project until the Nutshell 2nd ed is substantially done... and I'm not _promising_ I'll schedule it right afterwards;-). And, for the 2nd edition, may I suggest: - coverage of OptionParser module, which is more advanced than the getopt module that you discuss on page 141. I assume you mean optparse -- that's the module; OptionParser is a class within that module. Yep, covering that is in the plan. - better Mac OS X application building coverage. Tell us how to build double-clickable applications. Python in a Nutshell is a book about *cross-platform* Python. There is practically no *WINDOWS*-specific coverage -- 80% of the market or whatever -- it would be absurd if there was platform-specific coverage for a (wonderful) system that has less than 1/10th as much volume (and much as I may be rooting for the mac mini to revolutionize the market, I suspect it will only make a relatively small, incremental difference). I *WISH* I could write a book about Python on the Mac -- ever since I got my iBook, over a year ago, it's been my love and joy, and as soon as I had to change a desktop machine I got myself a dual processor G5 PowerMac too. However, when I proposed that idea to O'Reilly, their reaction was a firm no -- it's too narrow a market, they think (and, being the premier publisher for both the Mac AND Python, they should know, if anybody does). I don't know if this perception of O'Reilly can be changed. If it ever does change, I sure hope they'll call me first, to do that book...!!! I wish I could ask for wxPython coverage (the whole chapter on tkinter is useless to me), but I won't start a flame war here. As long as Tkinter is distributed with standard Python and not deprecated, it's unlikely that a reference work about Python can just quietly ignore it. If standard Python changed in this respect, I would of course take that into account in the next following edition!-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I completely agree. I'm also waiting for an advanced Python/project management book that helps folks out with large-scale projects. And, for the 2nd edition, may I suggest: - coverage of OptionParser module, which is more advanced than the getopt module that you discuss on page 141. - better Mac OS X application building coverage. Tell us how to build double-clickable applications. I wish I could ask for wxPython coverage (the whole chapter on tkinter is useless to me), but I won't start a flame war here. :: steve :: Mariano Draghi wrote: Alex Martelli escribió: Yes, good point... I _do_ plan another book after I'm done with the 2nd ed Nutshell, though ti will mostly be about Design Patterns and development methods so may not meet your exact desires... Now I'm anxious! *that* is the book I'm waiting for :) I think the Python community really needs such a book; you have plenty of books and articles and papers and resources on-line with (almost) all the bits pieces. But I really miss a book that focuses in the Pythonic way of project management, design patterns, development cycles, QA... something targeted to the enterprise. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli wrote: Craig Ringer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 23:54, Thomas Heller wrote: I found the discussion of unicode, in any python book I have, insufficient. I couldn't agree more. I think explicit treatment of implicit conversion, the role of sysdefaultencoding, the u'' constructor and unicode() built in, etc would be helpful to many. Thanks! BTW, thanks first and foremost to Holger Krekel (who was a very activist tech reviewer and specifically contributed a recipe for this purpose), there's what I believe is a pretty good treatment of Unicode in the Cookbook's forthcoming 2nd edition -- still insufficient in some sense, no doubt (it IS just a few pages), but, I believe, pretty good. Nevertheless, I'll ensure I focus on this in the 2nd ed Nutshell, too. It wouldn't hurt to point C extension authors at things like the 'es' encoded string format for PyArg_ParseTuple to help them make their code better behaved with non-ascii text. Good sub-point, thanks. Alex Any schedule for publication of 2nd Ed? I just bought 1st Ed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell? A: Unicode aware scrollable message box in Tk
Well, I have not read the previous version, but I would like to see an example how to redirect console messages from scripts to Tk windows in UTF-8/16 for debugging purposes. (I hate those ordinal not in range(128) messages) This involves setting font (Arial MS Unicode), scrollbar and Continue -button (allows script to continue execution). It could be called Unicode aware scrollable message box in Tk -pekka- Alex Martelli wrote: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). What I have in mind is not as complete a rewrite as for the 2nd vs 1st edition of the Cookbook -- Python hasn't changed drastically between 2.2 and 2.4, just incrementally. Language and built-ins additions I'd of course cover -- decorators, custom descriptors (already in 2.2 but not well covered in the 1st edition), importing from zipfiles, extended slicing of built-in sequences, sets, genexps, ... and also major new standard library modules such as (in no special order) optparse, tarfile, bsddb's new stuff, logging, Decimal, cookielib, datetime, email... and new capabilities of existing modules, such as thread-local storage. Outside of the standard library, I was thinking of expanding the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- perhaps premature to have it _instead_ of Numeric, though; dateutils, paramiko, py2app...). Since the book's size can't change much, I'll also have to snip some stuff (the pre-email ways to deal with mail, for example; modules asyncore and asynchat, probably) to make space for all of the additions. I haven't take any real decisions about it, yet, except one: I'll keep covering Tkinter, rather than moving to, say, wxPython (no space to _add_ wx coverage while leaving Tk intact - having to choose, I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers). Just about everything else is still to be finalized in my mind... So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
JoeG schreef: I disagree with your Tkinter vs. wxPython decision. I tried a number of programs written with Tkinter and really didn't like the interface. The program I helped develop is Windows based and I knew that a program with the Tkinter interface would never work as a cross platform environment. Out existing customers just wouldn't accept it. I can't see anyone using Tkinter for new mass market development. If you've already got an application written with it you might want to continue using it but for new projects, wxPython seems to have some BIG advantages. Robin Dunn is writing a wxPython book: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.wxpython/17535 -- JanC Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving. RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On 2004-12-29, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- I'd rather have a whole book on Twisted :p. But I'll take a more extensive section in PiaN if I can't have it. Dave Cook -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Dave Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2004-12-29, Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- I'd rather have a whole book on Twisted :p. But I'll take a more extensive section in PiaN if I can't have it. I believe one or more books on Twisted are in the works, but I have no insider info about them, their timing, and so on. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Discussion of GIL and (in)ability to control thread priority. Thanks for asking! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I use your book a lot so another version would be helpful. I know I'll buy a copy. Heck, I'd pay you money just to have access to the draft while you write it. One suggestion I have is to include chapters that expand on test based development and lazy functions. Maybe you could go into some of the concepts and methods used in the Zope3 project. That would be useful to me because I've been reading a lot about it but still can't seem to grok any of it. It's really hard to learn new concepts from books - no matter how well written. I usually need to read several different sources from different authors to get a decent picture. That gives me an idea for a perfect book. Take a single short subject - say doctest. Get three or four experts to independently write chapter. Then combine the chapters into a section. That way I could buy one book and get the different perspectives I need to really understand the subject. You could keep the books small and inexpensive. Twenty bucks and 100 to 200 pages. It would keep the book projects small and specific and with four people working separately, they could be cranked out quickly. Combine them all together and you've got a library. Well anyway, it's probably beyond the scope of your update but I'd like to see someone do it. Unlike a lot of authors, I can understand most of what you write. I've been working with Python for about a year and I still feel like a beginner. That probably gives me a different perspective than most of the people you'll hear from. I disagree with your Tkinter vs. wxPython decision. I tried a number of programs written with Tkinter and really didn't like the interface. The program I helped develop is Windows based and I knew that a program with the Tkinter interface would never work as a cross platform environment. Out existing customers just wouldn't accept it. I can't see anyone using Tkinter for new mass market development. If you've already got an application written with it you might want to continue using it but for new projects, wxPython seems to have some BIG advantages. wxPython takes on more of the native platform's interface. I say seems to because I haven't actually written any code with it. These are just my opinions. I've been programming for over twenty years now so I do have some perspective on the market even if I don't have much expertise with Linux or Python development. Good luck with your update. Let me know when it's published and I'll buy a copy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Aside from negative indices, I'd also suggest a small (and rather obvious) example for replacing a substring: s='spam' s=s[:1]+'xx'+s[3:] s 'sxxm' - Michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On Wednesday 29 December 2004 18:01, Alex Martelli wrote: snip So -- ctypes is definitely getting a _mention_, at least... the issue remains of whether we're talking one paragraph, like for all other extending-tools that were already thus mentioned in the 1st edition, or a couple of pages (I can't possibly spend 2-3 pages on each of a dozen extending tools, much as I'd love to!). Perhaps a more resonable sugestion would be a short section on integration with native systems, e.g. an intro/overview to (non exhaustive list): psyco scipy.blitz/weave ctypes pyrex snip they all represent intreresting areas. Perhaps the section could end with some words on PyPy. Speaking as somebody who's participated in more than half of the pypy sprints and hopes for more, I think pypy needs to be mentioned much earlier, together with other alternate implementations of Python. I do agree that vast coverage is outside the scope that the Nutshell's size lets me aim for. However, mere mention appears to lead to a serious risk of the pointer being entirely missed -- e.g. despite being interested in these issues you appear to be unaware of p. 545 (1st ed). Hmmm -- maybe I need to strike some kind of balance here (so what else is new...;-). snip This discussion is making me think what would be really nice is an advanced Python book that discusses many of the topics mentioned in this message and earlier messages in the thread. I'd rather see an in-depth advanced book than light coverage of the topics added to a Nutshell book. I own at least 8 or 9 Python books now and the 3 that I keep within arms reach of the computer are Nutshell, Cookbook, and Python Essential Reference. Dave Dave -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On 2004 Dec 30, at 19:19, Dave Reed wrote: This discussion is making me think what would be really nice is an advanced Python book that discusses many of the topics mentioned in this message and earlier messages in the thread. I'd rather see an in-depth advanced book than light coverage of the topics added to a Nutshell book. I own at least 8 or 9 Python books now and the 3 that I keep within arms reach of the computer are Nutshell, Cookbook, and Python Essential Reference. Yes, good point... I _do_ plan another book after I'm done with the 2nd ed Nutshell, though ti will mostly be about Design Patterns and development methods so may not meet your exact desires... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli escribió: Yes, good point... I _do_ plan another book after I'm done with the 2nd ed Nutshell, though ti will mostly be about Design Patterns and development methods so may not meet your exact desires... Now I'm anxious! *that* is the book I'm waiting for :) I think the Python community really needs such a book; you have plenty of books and articles and papers and resources on-line with (almost) all the bits pieces. But I really miss a book that focuses in the Pythonic way of project management, design patterns, development cycles, QA... something targeted to the enterprise. I think that somehow Python's J2EE equivalent is already out there (sort of...), if you have time to look for the bits, and if you manage to glue them together. A good book with a higher level approach, focused in design, would be an invaluable help in that proccess. -- Mariano -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I enjoyed the first edition. Please include: vpython.org, twisted and pygame and if you'll consider a gui toolkit do pygtk, we use it to develop and deploy on both windows and linux, with glade gui designer and libglade (loads the glade xml files in runtime). It's much easier to use than wx and looks nicer than tk :) Thanks for reading. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Mariano Draghi wrote: I think that somehow Python's J2EE equivalent is already out there (sort of...), I think it's called PEAK. . . Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
JoeG wrote: wxPython takes on more of the native platform's interface. I say seems to because I haven't actually written any code with it. While Tkinter is the GUI toolkit shipped *with* Python, then that's the correct toolkit for Alex to cover in PiaN. Mentioning other toolkits (and providing references for additional information, including books if they're available) seems like the most reasonable alternative. Now, if we could just switch to wxPython and Boa Constructor for Py3K. . . Cheers, Nick. Sorry Kurt! -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
RM wrote: What you say is true. However, I didn't think the target audience of this book was newbies. Python newbies yes, but not programming newbies. For programming newbies I would recommend the Learning Python book instead. The availability argument, however, is a good point. I was/am a python newbie beginning to learn python with this excellent book. I think it would have been much easier if there were more comparisions of features to other mainstream languages which one likely already knows (C, VB, Java ...) I liked the following Java book especially because of those comparisions: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130894680/qid=1104474997/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/302-1345611-4845666 The included comparisions helped me to get into the Java language more quickly. -- Greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). What I have in mind is not as complete a rewrite as for the 2nd vs 1st edition of the Cookbook -- Python hasn't changed drastically between 2.2 and 2.4, just incrementally. Language and built-ins additions I'd of course cover -- decorators, custom descriptors (already in 2.2 but not well covered in the 1st edition), importing from zipfiles, extended slicing of built-in sequences, sets, genexps, ... and also major new standard library modules such as (in no special order) optparse, tarfile, bsddb's new stuff, logging, Decimal, cookielib, datetime, email... and new capabilities of existing modules, such as thread-local storage. Outside of the standard library, I was thinking of expanding the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- perhaps premature to have it _instead_ of Numeric, though; dateutils, paramiko, py2app...). Since the book's size can't change much, I'll also have to snip some stuff (the pre-email ways to deal with mail, for example; modules asyncore and asynchat, probably) to make space for all of the additions. I haven't take any real decisions about it, yet, except one: I'll keep covering Tkinter, rather than moving to, say, wxPython (no space to _add_ wx coverage while leaving Tk intact - having to choose, I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers). Just about everything else is still to be finalized in my mind... So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:35:18 +0100, rumours say that [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) might have written: [snip: things to cover in a tentative 2nd edition of the nutshell] and new capabilities of existing modules, such as thread-local storage. ...which I most surely missed learning about it. Sometimes it's hard following all the changes, and amk's _What's New_ didn't mention it too (I'm sending a copy of this post to amk). In case others didn't know too, Google's first hit using the obvious query points to: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/302088 which is providing code and hints how to find out more about threading.local . Yes, Alex, I am sure a second version of the Nutshell would be much needed; now and then there are discussions about good Python books, and I believe recently someone proposed the Nutshell among others, only to get the reply but it only covers up to 2.2. -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving. (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:35:18 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. I understand in advance that my comments are not fully practical: The gap in the market against which I am currently bumpiong up against a wall is in gaining an understanding of threads, sub-processes, sockets, signals and such in Python - having no background in these concepts from outside of Python. Programming concepts up to this level can all (or mostly all) succesfully be learned and understood from materials out there speaking in Python. As to these concepts, the implicit point of view seems to be to leave Python to learn the concepts, and return to Python to understand its implementation of the details, once the concepts are well grasped. It seems to me important that this gap be filled. somehow at some point. The advice of go learn threads in Java and come back then seems a pity. Some of the other concepts which I am confronting I understand to be basic for the C programmer. This is how Python implements these C concepts, which we of course all understand. My hand has been held nicely, too this point then Learn C and come back? Love to. Don't have the time. I am a practicing Python programmer, hoping that can be enough. If I want to no more than be able to follow, say, the current Idle code of the PyShell module, I can find very little guidance from within the canon of Python literature. Help? Art -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:05:18 +0200, rumours say that Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou [EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: [snip: things to cover in a tentative 2nd edition of the nutshell] [Alex] and new capabilities of existing modules, such as thread-local storage. [I] ...which I most surely missed learning about it. Sometimes it's hard following all the changes, and amk's _What's New_ didn't mention it too (I'm sending a copy of this post to amk) ...and most promptly amk replied by pointing to http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/node13.html where it is indeed mentioned. So I stand corrected, mea culpa etc :) -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving. (from RFC1958) I really should keep that in mind when talking with people, actually... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). What I have in mind is not as complete a rewrite as for the 2nd vs 1st edition of the Cookbook -- Python hasn't changed drastically between 2.2 and 2.4, just incrementally. Language and built-ins additions I'd of course cover -- decorators, custom descriptors (already in 2.2 but not well covered in the 1st edition), importing from zipfiles, extended slicing of built-in sequences, sets, genexps, ... and also major new standard library modules such as (in no special order) optparse, tarfile, bsddb's new stuff, logging, Decimal, cookielib, datetime, email... and new capabilities of existing modules, such as thread-local storage. Outside of the standard library, I was thinking of expanding the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- perhaps premature to have it _instead_ of Numeric, though; dateutils, paramiko, py2app...). Since the book's size can't change much, I'll also have to snip some stuff (the pre-email ways to deal with mail, for example; modules asyncore and asynchat, probably) to make space for all of the additions. I haven't take any real decisions about it, yet, except one: I'll keep covering Tkinter, rather than moving to, say, wxPython (no space to _add_ wx coverage while leaving Tk intact - having to choose, I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers). Just about everything else is still to be finalized in my mind... So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. I found the discussion of unicode, in any python book I have, insufficient. Thomas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I found the discussion of unicode, in any python book I have, insufficient. Thomas +1 Don -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
As an already-experienced programmer, I came to Python via this book and still use it as my primary reference. As a Python beginner, I had a difficult time with the section on Slicing a sequence (p. 47). In particular, a better explanation and examples of negative indicies would be helpful. This is nitpicking in what I consider to be a very good book. I hope the second edition flies. Cheers, Steve -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli wrote: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. * code coverage tools for python code (testing your tests). * new-style classes forward and old-style shrunk. best practices such as always super(class, self).__init__(...) and why even if why is only a forward reference. Using Left(object), Right(object), Top(Left, Right) would be good for the example. ** Fix the examples in Inheritance in new-style object model, the diagram, and the following example in cooperative superclass method calling to use the same hierarchy. I personally prefer the A(object), B(A), C(A), D(B,C) hierarchy, but they should match. * implementing types/classes in C -- a checklist w/ advice on testing. --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I second that Regards, Fuzzy http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
I like the current edition. Since it is a reference work, I would like to see it in a CD-ROM as well as in print, either packaged with a book or as part of a Python CD Bookshelf, analogous to the other CD bookshelves O'Reilly offers. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: learning about threads and processes (was Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alex Martelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm - have you looked at Deitel, Deitel, Liperi, Wiedermann, Python how to program, chapters 18 (Process Management) and 19 (Multithreading), pages 613-687? They seem to do a rather workmanlike job -- of course, they can't do full justice to the subjects in 75 pages; and if you don't want to buy a vast, costly 1300-pages tome for the sake of those 75 pages, I can't really blame you, either. Except that it's a really, really piss-poor book. That's an opinion which I believe you've agreed with previously. And what about Norman Matloff's http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Python/PyThreads.pdf, the first google hit if you're looking for python threads ? I haven't looked into it, but, again, without some specific explanation of how it fails to meet your needs, it's hard to offer alternatives. That's actually pretty good. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli wrote: the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- perhaps premature to have it _instead_ of Numeric, though; dateutils, You might want to keep in touch with the scipy/numarray gang on this particular topic. An effort is currently under way to make scipy work with numarray, and matplotlib already works with numarray out of the box. These two facts will, I think, greatly accelerate the adoption of numarray and the transition away from Numeric. There are a few people (like me, unfortunately), who can simply not use numarray because of the small array instatiation overhead. But that subcommunity tends to know enough to be able to deal with the problems by itself. Since numarray is indeed the long-term array core for Python, I think the book would be better off by covering it. Numarray is actively developed, and vastly better documented than Numeric. A mention of the particular problems with numarray might be a good idea, so that readers are aware of Numeric and where it may still be preferable to numarray, but with the understanding that it's a (shrinking) niche. Hopefully one day that niche will shrink to zero, but that is going to take time and work. Finally, I think in this section a mention of the overall scipy project would be a good idea. Scipy is the central meeting point for most scientific computing projects in python, and therefore a natural reference for most users of numarray/numeric. Amongst other useful things at the scipy site, there's a community maintained wiki of links to python-based projects of scientific interest: http://www.scipy.org/wikis/topical_software/TopicalSoftware Regards, f -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 23:54, Thomas Heller wrote: I found the discussion of unicode, in any python book I have, insufficient. I couldn't agree more. I think explicit treatment of implicit conversion, the role of sysdefaultencoding, the u'' constructor and unicode() built in, etc would be helpful to many. A clear explanation of why Python strings, despite being assumed to be ASCII, can contain any 8-bit data in any text encoding (or no text encoding at all) may also help newbies. I spent a while fighting to understand the way python handles encodings a while ago and benefited significantly from it - but there really needs to be a good explanation. The relationship between 'str' and 'unicode' objects, the way implicit conversion works with sysdefaultencoding, and how explicit conversions between encodings and to/from unicode, in particular, need attention. It'd also be REALLY good to mention the role of, and importance of, the coding: line. An explanation of its relationship with the interpretation of strings in the script, and with the sysdefaultencoding, would also be helpful, as IMO the script encodings PEP only really makes sense once you already understand it. It wouldn't hurt to point C extension authors at things like the 'es' encoded string format for PyArg_ParseTuple to help them make their code better behaved with non-ascii text. -- Craig Ringer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: learning about threads and processes (was Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?)
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:41:23 +0100, Alex Martelli wrote: Hmmm, well, the concepts are reasonably independent of the programming language involved. If anything, threads and processes may be more tied to whatever _operating system_ you're using. A very fundamental but good introduction to processes (and other such basics) is for example at http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Unix-and-Internet-Fundamentals-HOWTO/, but it will be only partially applicable if you need to understand in depth the process-model of Windows. But of course this is about the concepts, not the practice of programming to interact with them. Too basic. Doesn't speak to the intermediate. I'll have you know, sir, you are speaking to someone who is quite intermediate, at least in mediocre way. Hummph ;) If I want to no more than be able to follow, say, the current Idle code of the PyShell module, I can find very little guidance from within the canon of Python literature. Help? Hmmm - have you looked at Deitel, Deitel, Liperi, Wiedermann, Python how to program, chapters 18 (Process Management) and 19 (Multithreading), pages 613-687? They seem to do a rather workmanlike job -- of course, they can't do full justice to the subjects in 75 pages; and if you don't want to buy a vast, costly 1300-pages tome for the sake of those 75 pages, I can't really blame you, either. Still, without some clarification of how (if at all) those 75 pages fail to meet your learning needs, it's hard to know what else to suggest. And what about Norman Matloff's http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/Python/PyThreads.pdf, the first google hit if you're looking for python threads I never gotten to page 613 of any book in my life ;) But the Matloff piece you site is in fact helpful to the intermediate. Frankly not sure how I missed it in past searches. Python threading as a google buries it a bit, but not that deeply. This also comes up on a fresh search, and is to the point and at the level of interest. It is also recent: http://linuxgazette.net/107/pai.html ? I haven't looked into it, but, again, without some specific explanation of how it fails to meet your needs, it's hard to offer alternatives. The problem is when one starts off explaining threads by reference to processes, I already have a practical problem. Which, under what circumstances. Again referring back to the Idle code, class ModifiedInterpreter in the PyShell module: Within the space of a simple class, we are spawning a subprocess via: self.rpcpid = os.spawnv(os.P_NOWAIT, sys.executable, args) and a rpc client listening to a socket via: self.rpcclt = MyRPCClient(addr) which can be interrupted via a thread ala: threading.Thread(target=self.__request_interrupt).start() And then it gets a little complicated, to an intermediate ;) Guess I am hoping to get to understand it as architecture, as well as as code. This happens to be another piece of code I am trying to digest, which allows one to experiment with building PyGTK widgets from an interactive prompt: http://www.pygtk.org/pygtktutorial/examples/pygtkconsole.py which uses os.fork and signals in its architecture, but no threads, as opposed to this CookBook recipe: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/65109 which accomplishes a very similar functionality using threads as a fundamental part of its strategy. The closest thing I can think of as the kind of book I would love to see is one similar to Steve Holden's book on web programming, which explained lower level internet proctocols at the same time as it explained their Python implementation. Wonder what Steve's are doing this week? ;) Art -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). ... Since you were kind enough to ask...what I'd really like is a better better index and better organization, so I can more quickly and easily locate info on a particular topic. Nutshell has some wonderful in-depth discussions of certain topics and I'm glad I own it, but I find it too hard to use for everyday questions (which was not at all what I expected for a nutshell book). I usually start with the html help (if I know the module I need or have a firm guess as to which other manual to read) or Python Essential Reference (other cases), then go to Nutshell if I'm still lost or if I remember it has a good section on the topic of interest. -- Russell -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a : Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and : 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). : So, if there's any advice or request about a 2nd edition of the : Nutshell, this is the right time for y'all to let me know. Feedback is : welcome, either privately or right here. Thanks in advance -- _and_ : apologies in advance because I know I just won't be able to accomodate : all the requests/advice, given the constraints on book size c. Alex, Probably not a practical sugestion, but have you considered ctypes? I know it's proved invaluable to our group at university - we like to make Python work with so many bits of weird hardware with vendor supplied libraries etc ... Perhaps a more resonable sugestion would be a short section on integration with native systems, e.g. an intro/overview to (non exhaustive list): psyco scipy.blitz/weave ctypes pyrex A detailed look at these is probably outside the scope of Nutshell, but they all represent intreresting areas. Perhaps the section could end with some words on PyPy. Cheers, cds -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli wrote: I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers. Alex, I know this can be a can of worms. But honestly, I wonder what do you base that idea on. -Ruben -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
As a tester, my vote goes to extending the Testing subsection of the Testing, debugging and optimizing. I'd like to see more testing tools discussed there. Maybe py.test, PyFIT, and possibly others. Grig -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
RM wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers. Alex, I know this can be a can of worms. But honestly, I wonder what do you base that idea on. -Ruben Tkinter is a part of the Python core, and so will be available to the majority of beginners. Tkinter is also likely to be supported (by Tcl) in Linux and other Unix-like environments, although with a slightly lower level of ubiquity. I suspect Alex is considering availability at least as strongly as the technical merits of the packages. And, when all is said and done, beginners shouldn't have to go download stuff before beginning to noodle round with GUIs. regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Craig Ringer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 23:54, Thomas Heller wrote: I found the discussion of unicode, in any python book I have, insufficient. I couldn't agree more. I think explicit treatment of implicit conversion, the role of sysdefaultencoding, the u'' constructor and unicode() built in, etc would be helpful to many. Thanks! BTW, thanks first and foremost to Holger Krekel (who was a very activist tech reviewer and specifically contributed a recipe for this purpose), there's what I believe is a pretty good treatment of Unicode in the Cookbook's forthcoming 2nd edition -- still insufficient in some sense, no doubt (it IS just a few pages), but, I believe, pretty good. Nevertheless, I'll ensure I focus on this in the 2nd ed Nutshell, too. It wouldn't hurt to point C extension authors at things like the 'es' encoded string format for PyArg_ParseTuple to help them make their code better behaved with non-ascii text. Good sub-point, thanks. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a Python beginner, I had a difficult time with the section on Slicing a sequence (p. 47). In particular, a better explanation and examples of negative indicies would be helpful. Good point, thanks. This is nitpicking in what I consider to be a very good book. I hope And thanks for this, too! Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Fernando Perez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: the coverage of Twisted and adding just a few things (numarray -- perhaps premature to have it _instead_ of Numeric, though; dateutils, You might want to keep in touch with the scipy/numarray gang on this particular topic. An effort is currently under way to make scipy work with numarray, and matplotlib already works with numarray out of the box. These two facts will, I think, greatly accelerate the adoption of numarray and the transition away from Numeric. There are a few people (like me, unfortunately), who can simply not use numarray because of the small array instatiation overhead. But that subcommunity tends to know enough to be able to deal with the problems by itself. Since numarray is indeed the long-term array core for Python, I think the book would be better off by covering it. Numarray is actively developed, and vastly better documented than Numeric. Well, I _am_ going to cover or at least mention numarray -- my question was on whether I can _drop_ Numeric in favour of numarray. In good part _because_ numarray has good docs, it may be less crucial for me to cover it thoroughly, than I felt it was for Numeric. Three years ago, numarray was barely a blip on the radar, if that; three years from now, the same may be true of Numeric; but right now, I get some sense that we're in transition -- that numarray needs and deserves coverage or at least extended mention, BUT nevertheless it might be premature to drop the coverage of Numeric... A mention of the particular problems with numarray might be a good idea, so that readers are aware of Numeric and where it may still be preferable to numarray, but with the understanding that it's a (shrinking) niche. Hopefully one day that niche will shrink to zero, but that is going to take time and work. Right -- and if I can get the 2nd ed of the Nutshell out within 2005, it may be too early to say that Numeric has shrunk to the vanishing point... so I may still need to have both in... Finally, I think in this section a mention of the overall scipy project would be a good idea. Scipy is the central meeting point for most scientific computing projects in python, and therefore a natural reference for most users of numarray/numeric. Amongst other useful things at the scipy site, there's a community maintained wiki of links to python-based projects of scientific interest: http://www.scipy.org/wikis/topical_software/TopicalSoftware Most definitely a good idea, thanks. Indeed, the lack of mention of scipy _is_ a wart in the 1st ed -- as my excuse I can only explain that I was _so_ focused on being focused... I ended up excising even all mentions of my own baby, gmpy...!-) But yes, scipy _will_ most definitely get a mention this time around -- thanks for reminding me!-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
What you say is true. However, I didn't think the target audience of this book was newbies. Python newbies yes, but not programming newbies. For programming newbies I would recommend the Learning Python book instead. The availability argument, however, is a good point. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Russell E. Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). ... Since you were kind enough to ask...what I'd really like is a better better index and better organization, so I can more quickly and easily locate info on a particular topic. Thanks for the advice! What I have now is the best organization I was able to conceive -- and I have no current ideas on how to enhance it. Any _suggestions_ will be truly welcome; somehow, I don't see make it better as a _suggestion_... if I _knew_ how to organize it better, I would, of course. Indexing is a completely separate issue, mostly done by O'Reilly outside of my control; can we please focus on _organization_, which _is_ almost entirely in my hands... Nutshell has some wonderful in-depth discussions of certain topics and I'm glad I own it, but I find it too hard to use for everyday questions (which was not at all what I expected for a nutshell book). I usually Indeed, this is definitely not what I was aiming for, and if it's a widespread issue which all reviews of the book I read managed to hide it's crucial for it to come out -- whence my thanks. But I need more help to understand what makes the book's organization so feeble for you, and whether the issue is widespread so that I need to revolutionize the book's organization... or whether such a revolution wouldn't hurt the many readers who appeared sort of OK with the current structure... Thanks in advance for any further input -- and that applies to others just as much as to you (meaning: o future potential readers, if you find the current organization of the book ok, please do speak up -- if only those who prefer changes are gonna speak, then changes are likely!-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
c d saunter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Probably not a practical sugestion, but have you considered ctypes? I know it's proved invaluable to our group at university - we like to make Python work with so many bits of weird hardware with vendor supplied libraries etc ... Yes, I was considering mentioning or covering ctypes as part of an expansion of the Extending Python *without* Python's C API section which currently mentions pyfort, f2py, SCXX, CXX, Boost, SWIG, pyrex, weave/blitz, and the use of COM (on Windows only). All of those mentions are on p. 545, meaning that it's a very crowded section, of course;-) [[ and yet it's missing lots of stuff such as sip etc...!-) ]]. I do have a ctypes recipe in the extending and embedding chapter of the Cookbook's 2nd edition, and I was really glad to get it because I like ctypes a lot (the Pyrex recipe I had to request specifically from my good friend Peter Cogolo -- requests mailed to the pyrex mailing list having produced no answer whatsoever). So -- ctypes is definitely getting a _mention_, at least... the issue remains of whether we're talking one paragraph, like for all other extending-tools that were already thus mentioned in the 1st edition, or a couple of pages (I can't possibly spend 2-3 pages on each of a dozen extending tools, much as I'd love to!). Perhaps a more resonable sugestion would be a short section on integration with native systems, e.g. an intro/overview to (non exhaustive list): psyco scipy.blitz/weave ctypes pyrex I'm missing psyco, out of these -- unsure whether it should be in the optimization chapter or in the extending one. But again, mostly, the issue is just mention -- or _cover_...?. A detailed look at these is probably outside the scope of Nutshell, but they all represent intreresting areas. Perhaps the section could end with some words on PyPy. Speaking as somebody who's participated in more than half of the pypy sprints and hopes for more, I think pypy needs to be mentioned much earlier, together with other alternate implementations of Python. I do agree that vast coverage is outside the scope that the Nutshell's size lets me aim for. However, mere mention appears to lead to a serious risk of the pointer being entirely missed -- e.g. despite being interested in these issues you appear to be unaware of p. 545 (1st ed). Hmmm -- maybe I need to strike some kind of balance here (so what else is new...;-). Thanks! Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
RM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: I still believe Tkinter coverage is going to help more readers. Alex, I know this can be a can of worms. But honestly, I wonder what do you base that idea on. Availability, simplicity, stability, to name three reasons. The typical middling-beginning programmer who download a good Python distro is going to have Tkinter available -- otherwise he or she couldn't be running IDLE, which is probably the best ways for most Pybeginners to start playing with Python in a cross-platform way. Putting up a trivial GUI, which may not LOOK very good, maybe, but still WORKS, is quite simple. AND, Tkinter isn't going to keep changing under my feet!-) On the Cookbook site, selecting recipes for the CB's 2nd ed, I noticed that a vast majority of GUI recipes posted were for Tkinter -- a _larger_ dominance than at the time the CB's 1st edition was being prepared. Accordingly, poor old maligned Tkinter is the dominant GUI toolkit in that chapter of the CB. It would be weird to do otherwise in the 2nd ed of the Nutshell. If I had space to add a second toolkit, despite my personal liking for Qt, it would be wx (with PythonCard coverage, too). But I don't: I gotta choose _one_. Not on the basis of my personal likes and dislikes (not that I particularly dislike Tkinter, mind you -- but, even IF I did!), but on the basis of what's gonna help readers most. And I'm quite convinced that, in late 2004, the answer to the latter is still: Tkinter. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Grig Gheorghiu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a tester, my vote goes to extending the Testing subsection of the Testing, debugging and optimizing. I'd like to see more testing tools discussed there. Maybe py.test, PyFIT, and possibly others. Thanks! Very helpful input. Testing surely needs AND deserves more attention all around, yes. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
RM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say is true. However, I didn't think the target audience of this book was newbies. Python newbies yes, but not programming newbies. For programming newbies I would recommend the Learning Python book instead. Sure (or any of the other excellent tutorials, including Python Programming for Absolute Beginners). Such tutorials' coverage of GUI programming tends to be scarce, though; and moreover, programmers often come to Python, from other languages, without skills directly applicable to programming a GUI in Python (as opposed to, say, just painting the GUI with a tool, as QT Designer or wxGlade may let you do). Any GUI programming skills that may exist can be Tk-related more often than one might think... or maybe that's just my own biased observations, people coming to Python from previous experience with perl or tcl, but I've known quite a few of those. The availability argument, however, is a good point. It has its importance, yes. If you want to replace the de facto Python standard GUI toolkit with wx, gtk or whatever, having an IDLE-or-better equivalent using your favourite toolkit, and managing to sneak it into the std Python distro, would be the way to go;-) Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: Russell E. Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote: I'm considering proposing to O'Reilly a 2nd edition of Python in a Nutshell, that I'd write in 2005, essentially to cover Python 2.3 and 2.4 (the current 1st edition only covers Python up to 2.2). ... Since you were kind enough to ask...what I'd really like is a better better index and better organization, so I can more quickly and easily locate info on a particular topic. Thanks for the advice! What I have now is the best organization I was able to conceive -- and I have no current ideas on how to enhance it. Any _suggestions_ will be truly welcome; somehow, I don't see make it better as a _suggestion_... if I _knew_ how to organize it better, I would, of course. Fair enough. I was being lazy, but also wanted to be sure the input would be considered useful before going into details. Here are some issues for me: * A mini table of contents for each major section would be really helpful. List the modules, and (if appropriate) sub-modules with maybe a one-liner as to what they do, and a page #. * The discussion of the os module (p171) could especially use such a TOC. p171 starts with a nice, thorough explanation of os and all it does, but as a quick reference it is tricky; rather than jumping right to what I want, I have to get past a discussion of OSError an the errno module before any os methods are discussed, and then I have to flip through many pages of stuff to find the right section. * Please cross-reference using page #s, not just chapter #s or covered later in this chapter. For instance the os module text refers one to chapter 14 for a discussion of os's handling of processes. Ouch. I hope that modern writing tools make page # references safe and easy. * Some of the page breaks are awkward. I know it eats paper to fix it everywhere, but... for example, it'd help to have the re special characters table all on one page (or at least on facing pages). * Exceptions: - I beg you to include a ONE-PAGE table of exceptions that shows the inheritance hierarchy via indentation (e.g. like Python Essential Reference). The detailed info will probably have to follow. Such a table is a much easier way of figuring out who inherits from who, and I usually find such a table sufficient (and very efficient) for picking out which exception to use. Having the detailed info is much appreciated, but it's a poor substitute for a quick reference table. - Some discussion of which standard modules raise errors that inheriit directly from Exception instead of StandardError would be helpful. - (nit-pick) The try statement, bottom of p104. The two basic forms are listed, but a page # for the 2nd form would help jump there. - Exception objects, p109. Using strings as exceptions would make a nice footnote instead of cluttering up the main text. They've been deprecated for a long time. Also, two content requests: * please describe the new subprocess module in gory detail and move discussion of the older modules which it can replace to an appendix or the back of the same chapter or in some other way keep it from cluttering up the main text. (I'm sure popen, etc. still has to be discussed, if only for folks dealing with older code, but subprocess is clearly the right way to go for new code). * Please describe numarray instead of Numeric (or both, or discuss numarray and list some changes from Numeric?) I'm looking forward to the next edition! -- Russell -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: what would you like to see in a 2nd edition Nutshell?
Alex Martelli wrote: Fernando Perez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A mention of the particular problems with numarray might be a good idea, so that readers are aware of Numeric and where it may still be preferable to numarray, but with the understanding that it's a (shrinking) niche. Hopefully one day that niche will shrink to zero, but that is going to take time and work. Right -- and if I can get the 2nd ed of the Nutshell out within 2005, it may be too early to say that Numeric has shrunk to the vanishing point... so I may still need to have both in... I think that, for people who are approaching numarray/Numeric for the first time through your book, all they need is a discussion about numarray and a brief discussion about Numeric's existence, its important differences from numarray, and why one might use it instead (small array performance, compatibility with other libraries, etc.). I think that the core lessons such a person is going to learn from a numarray section of your book will transfer just fine to Numeric if they are careful. If they're not careful, a book isn't going to keep them from shooting themselves in the foot, anyways. :-) -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
