Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[John Lee]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, Steve Holden wrote:


On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee  wrote:


I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked
to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably
Irrational" I think).  It was found those students cheated less than a
control group.  But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to
Ariely, at the time)!  The hypothesis is that we need reminding about these
things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important.



In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out
unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at
least mildly unacceptable had happened.


Yeah.  Some of that is inevitable I suppose.

FWIW I have to admit I always cringe just a bit at "unacceptable" in this 
sort of context.  I prefer "bad".  Less authoritarian, but clear (my 
philosophy: the truth is out there, but it's hard to find, and we might 
always be wrong).  IIUC some people on this list genuinely think being a 
little disrespectful here to recruiters is the right thing to do when they 
are perceived to be being disrespectful themselves.  Though I think that's 
a mistake, as usual I have to try and remember it might be ME who's 
mistaken, that merely telling people they are mistaken is, and should be, 
unpersuasive, and so trying to force them to behave my way is in the long 
run ineffective and possibly harmful.  (hope that doesn't sound like a 
personal slight, not intended)




Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither
python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a
low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents?


Maybe so



Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise
you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an
impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of
hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any
response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have
yet been am member of the list long enough to see this."


On the principle above, it could just say "Be good"

<0.5 wink>



After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours.


+1
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Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee  wrote:

> I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked
> to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably
> Irrational" I think).  It was found those students cheated less than a
> control group.  But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to
> Ariely, at the time)!  The hypothesis is that we need reminding about these
> things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important.
>

In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out
unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at
least mildly unacceptable had happened.

Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither
python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a
low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents?

Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise
you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an
impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of
hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any
response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have
yet been am member of the list long enough to see this."

After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours.

regards
 Steve


Steve Holden
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Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Steve Holden]

Sorry, you'll just have to apply the inverse dyslexia filter to my previous
message. As I've observed in other fora, it's been a long week. S

Steve Holden

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee  wrote:
>
>> I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were
>> asked to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book
>> "Predictably Irrational" I think).  It was found those students cheated
>> less than a control group.  But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code
>> (according to Ariely, at the time)!  The hypothesis is that we need
>> reminding about these things to behave better -- and the code itself is not
>> so important.
>>
>
> In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out
> unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at
> least mildly unacceptable had happened.
>
> Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither
> python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a
> low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents?
>
> Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise
> you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an
> impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of
> hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any
> response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have
> yet been am member of the list long enough to see this."
>
> After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours.
>
> regards
>  Steve
>
>
> Steve Holden
>
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Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[John Lee]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Daniele Procida wrote:


On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney  wrote:


I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?


Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too.

As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by 
.

If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described there 
are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to reconsider whether 
they can continue to participate here.


I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked 
to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably 
Irrational" I think).  It was found those students cheated less than a 
control group.  But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to 
Ariely, at the time)!  The hypothesis is that we need reminding about 
these things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important.

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Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Gilberto Gonçalves]

Unfortunately I'll have to agree with this too, I was surprised to see that
thread happening here.

One thing that is missing on the CoC for Python is actually what happens
when situations like this arise.

It just says that we will be respectful, well, that didn't happen, how can
we prevent it from happening in the future?

Cheers,
Gil

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Daniele Procida  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney  wrote:
>
> >I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
> >Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
> >for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?
>
> Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too.
>
> As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by <
> https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>.
>
> If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described
> there are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to
> reconsider whether they can continue to participate here.
>
> Daniele
>
> ___
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>
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[python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Daniele Procida]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney  wrote:

>I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
>Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
>for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?

Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too.

As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by 
.

If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described there 
are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to reconsider whether 
they can continue to participate here.

Daniele

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