Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Jonathan Hartley]

A humerous link sent by Harry Percival, related to this discussion:

http://cube-drone.com/comics/c/encapsulation

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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Andrew Farrell]

> I agree that pip is even more appropriate than Anaconda.

Note that you can `pip install` packages from PyPI into a conda
environment, so you can install Anaconda and use it for packages that are
otherwise hard to install on windows and then use pip for everything else.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Jonathan Hartley 
wrote:

> On 02/01/2017 01:05 AM, Steve - Gadget Barnes wrote:
>
>>
>> On 01/02/2017 04:25, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks all.
>>>
>>> Hansel - Thank you, that makes sense. I actually already do a mini
>>> version of that at the place I'm leaving, but devs are only using
>>> Linux/Mac host machines, and we only a Linux VM. It's reassuring to hear
>>> that sort of setup is still feasible when extended to Windows hosts, and
>>> Windows VMs too.
>>>
>>> I'm tempted to reduce the number of dev configurations we need to
>>> maintain by just holding my nose and using a Windows laptop, same as
>>> everyone else, with a Linux VM on it. That way, I can easily replicate
>>> my setup on any other dev's machine if they want to get involved in the
>>> Python. Would get us up and running quicker, rather than figuring out
>>> every combo of host and VM OS. But maybe expand into doing the full
>>> monty you describe if there's ever more than just me who would like to
>>> work from Linux (or if I get sick of working in a VM the whole time)
>>>
>>>  Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan,
>>
>> Have you considered that python is extremely cross platform. Provided
>> you are careful in the areas of:
>>
>>- Paths
>>- Direct hardware interfaces
>>- Shell operations
>>- Maintaining your requires.txt file(s)
>>- A tiny number of libraries that are not (easily) available for
>> Windows, (maybe it is worth having a blacklist). On that front Christoph
>> Gohlke has http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ which can save
>> many hours of fun. Note that the introduction of the wheel library
>> format has made things a lot simpler.
>>
>> You should be able to develop & test python code on Linux (where you are
>> comfortable) including writing test suites - fire up a Windows VM with
>> python installed, (complete with populating you library from
>> requires.txt) & run your test suite. Then, assuming the tests all pass,
>> either deploy to Windows machines with python already installed as a
>> prerequisite or while you are in your VM use py2exe/pyinstaller or
>> cxfreeze to produce a Windows deployment for machines that don't have
>> python installed.  If you stick to good, cross platform, programming
>> standards you should find it a breeze - pylint is your friend on this.
>>
>> Just as an example I had been developing a suite of (wx)Python based
>> programs/utilities at work for quite a few years under Windows 7 and
>> deploying it. as executables, to machines running XP though 10. When the
>> whole lot was at about 80k lines I had an opportunity to try it for the
>> first time on a Linux box - I had to change 3 lines of code to get it
>> working.  Of course this was helped by the fact that I was testing both
>> as source and as bundled executable.
>>
>> Many people swear by Anaconda for simplifying this sort of stuff you may
>> wish to consider going that way personally I stick with pip and
>> sometimes, rarely, have to re-think which library I am going to have to
>> use.
>>
>> Of course deploying a docker using vagrant does give you a lot more
>> control and Linux dockers with python & your libraries installed can be
>> quite light weight.
>>
>
> Hey Steve, Thanks for the detailed thoughts.
>
> My situation is a web application deployed to AWS, so I'm able to control
> the installed Python and other dependencies on the servers, so I won't need
> py2exe et al. In that situation, I agree that pip is even more appropriate
> than Anaconda.
>
> It's great to hear that Python running on Windows is continuing to
> flourish, and you reassure me that's a healthy option. But to be honest,
> I'm more concerned about lacking the Linux system calls, ecosystem of
> services (e.g. supervisor) and philosophy that I'm used to. Clearly there
> are Windows equivalents of the tools I like, but figuring them out would be
> an extra burden, and I'd rather min/max my future skillset rather than
> knowing a little bit about each.
>
> I very much hope that containers will be part of our strategy, as outlined
> by Hansel earlier. I only just learned that Windows containers are also now
> a thing! I had no idea. (They only run on Windows hosts, which is fair.)
>
> Many thanks for the inputs, people.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Hartleytart...@tartley.comhttp://tartley.com
> Made out of meat.   +1 507-513-1101twitter/skype: tartley
>
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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Jonathan Hartley]

On 02/01/2017 01:05 AM, Steve - Gadget Barnes wrote:


On 01/02/2017 04:25, Jonathan Hartley wrote:

Thanks all.

Hansel - Thank you, that makes sense. I actually already do a mini
version of that at the place I'm leaving, but devs are only using
Linux/Mac host machines, and we only a Linux VM. It's reassuring to hear
that sort of setup is still feasible when extended to Windows hosts, and
Windows VMs too.

I'm tempted to reduce the number of dev configurations we need to
maintain by just holding my nose and using a Windows laptop, same as
everyone else, with a Linux VM on it. That way, I can easily replicate
my setup on any other dev's machine if they want to get involved in the
Python. Would get us up and running quicker, rather than figuring out
every combo of host and VM OS. But maybe expand into doing the full
monty you describe if there's ever more than just me who would like to
work from Linux (or if I get sick of working in a VM the whole time)

 Jonathan



Jonathan,

Have you considered that python is extremely cross platform. Provided
you are careful in the areas of:

   - Paths
   - Direct hardware interfaces
   - Shell operations
   - Maintaining your requires.txt file(s)
   - A tiny number of libraries that are not (easily) available for
Windows, (maybe it is worth having a blacklist). On that front Christoph
Gohlke has http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ which can save
many hours of fun. Note that the introduction of the wheel library
format has made things a lot simpler.

You should be able to develop & test python code on Linux (where you are
comfortable) including writing test suites - fire up a Windows VM with
python installed, (complete with populating you library from
requires.txt) & run your test suite. Then, assuming the tests all pass,
either deploy to Windows machines with python already installed as a
prerequisite or while you are in your VM use py2exe/pyinstaller or
cxfreeze to produce a Windows deployment for machines that don't have
python installed.  If you stick to good, cross platform, programming
standards you should find it a breeze - pylint is your friend on this.

Just as an example I had been developing a suite of (wx)Python based
programs/utilities at work for quite a few years under Windows 7 and
deploying it. as executables, to machines running XP though 10. When the
whole lot was at about 80k lines I had an opportunity to try it for the
first time on a Linux box - I had to change 3 lines of code to get it
working.  Of course this was helped by the fact that I was testing both
as source and as bundled executable.

Many people swear by Anaconda for simplifying this sort of stuff you may
wish to consider going that way personally I stick with pip and
sometimes, rarely, have to re-think which library I am going to have to use.

Of course deploying a docker using vagrant does give you a lot more
control and Linux dockers with python & your libraries installed can be
quite light weight.


Hey Steve, Thanks for the detailed thoughts.

My situation is a web application deployed to AWS, so I'm able to 
control the installed Python and other dependencies on the servers, so I 
won't need py2exe et al. In that situation, I agree that pip is even 
more appropriate than Anaconda.


It's great to hear that Python running on Windows is continuing to 
flourish, and you reassure me that's a healthy option. But to be honest, 
I'm more concerned about lacking the Linux system calls, ecosystem of 
services (e.g. supervisor) and philosophy that I'm used to. Clearly 
there are Windows equivalents of the tools I like, but figuring them out 
would be an extra burden, and I'd rather min/max my future skillset 
rather than knowing a little bit about each.


I very much hope that containers will be part of our strategy, as 
outlined by Hansel earlier. I only just learned that Windows containers 
are also now a thing! I had no idea. (They only run on Windows hosts, 
which is fair.)


Many thanks for the inputs, people.

Jonathan

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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Steve - Gadget Barnes]

On 01/02/2017 04:25, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> Thanks all.
>
> Hansel - Thank you, that makes sense. I actually already do a mini
> version of that at the place I'm leaving, but devs are only using
> Linux/Mac host machines, and we only a Linux VM. It's reassuring to hear
> that sort of setup is still feasible when extended to Windows hosts, and
> Windows VMs too.
>
> I'm tempted to reduce the number of dev configurations we need to
> maintain by just holding my nose and using a Windows laptop, same as
> everyone else, with a Linux VM on it. That way, I can easily replicate
> my setup on any other dev's machine if they want to get involved in the
> Python. Would get us up and running quicker, rather than figuring out
> every combo of host and VM OS. But maybe expand into doing the full
> monty you describe if there's ever more than just me who would like to
> work from Linux (or if I get sick of working in a VM the whole time)
>
> Jonathan
>
>

Jonathan,

Have you considered that python is extremely cross platform. Provided 
you are careful in the areas of:

  - Paths
  - Direct hardware interfaces
  - Shell operations
  - Maintaining your requires.txt file(s)
  - A tiny number of libraries that are not (easily) available for 
Windows, (maybe it is worth having a blacklist). On that front Christoph 
Gohlke has http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ which can save 
many hours of fun. Note that the introduction of the wheel library 
format has made things a lot simpler.

You should be able to develop & test python code on Linux (where you are 
comfortable) including writing test suites - fire up a Windows VM with 
python installed, (complete with populating you library from 
requires.txt) & run your test suite. Then, assuming the tests all pass, 
either deploy to Windows machines with python already installed as a 
prerequisite or while you are in your VM use py2exe/pyinstaller or 
cxfreeze to produce a Windows deployment for machines that don't have 
python installed.  If you stick to good, cross platform, programming 
standards you should find it a breeze - pylint is your friend on this.

Just as an example I had been developing a suite of (wx)Python based 
programs/utilities at work for quite a few years under Windows 7 and 
deploying it. as executables, to machines running XP though 10. When the 
whole lot was at about 80k lines I had an opportunity to try it for the 
first time on a Linux box - I had to change 3 lines of code to get it 
working.  Of course this was helped by the fact that I was testing both 
as source and as bundled executable.

Many people swear by Anaconda for simplifying this sort of stuff you may 
wish to consider going that way personally I stick with pip and 
sometimes, rarely, have to re-think which library I am going to have to use.

Of course deploying a docker using vagrant does give you a lot more 
control and Linux dockers with python & your libraries installed can be 
quite light weight.
-- 
Steve (Gadget) Barnes
Any opinions in this message are my personal opinions and do not reflect 
those of my employer.
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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Jonathan Hartley]

Thanks all.

Hansel - Thank you, that makes sense. I actually already do a mini 
version of that at the place I'm leaving, but devs are only using 
Linux/Mac host machines, and we only a Linux VM. It's reassuring to hear 
that sort of setup is still feasible when extended to Windows hosts, and 
Windows VMs too.


I'm tempted to reduce the number of dev configurations we need to 
maintain by just holding my nose and using a Windows laptop, same as 
everyone else, with a Linux VM on it. That way, I can easily replicate 
my setup on any other dev's machine if they want to get involved in the 
Python. Would get us up and running quicker, rather than figuring out 
every combo of host and VM OS. But maybe expand into doing the full 
monty you describe if there's ever more than just me who would like to 
work from Linux (or if I get sick of working in a VM the whole time)


Jonathan



On 01/31/2017 04:49 PM, Hansel Dunlop wrote:


It should be possible to have your Python app/s in docker containers 
(which can be run anywhere via VirtualBox or natively where available) 
and also run your windows Dev VMs via VirtualBox. Then this setup can 
be replicated across Mac/Linux/Win. That's your Dev environment. Then 
in production you have servers running Windows, and servers running 
Linux with containers on top. Vagrant will make this easyish on Dev 
and Ansible for staging/production. It's not an uncommon setup. All 
Dev machines need a few gigs of RAM.


I mean you basically said this in your question. But it's really quite 
common. And would suit your Linux skills more. Scripting windows? I 
hear it's almost possible now? 😚



On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, 18:13 Jonathan Hartley, > wrote:


Lots of good thoughts so far, thanks to everyone.

Anand, I deeply appreciate your contributions, but what exactly
did you
mean by: "set up Linux containers but make things available on
Windows" ?


On 01/31/2017 10:26 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:
> I'd probably start with utilising setting up Linux VMs /
containers but
> make things available on Windows.
>
> Keep in mind that .Net (and thus C#, F#) also run on Linux as
well, and
> those VMs / containers tend to be cheaper overall.
>
> A
>
>
> On 31/01/17 15:02, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based
>> infrastructure written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.
>>
>> They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering
>> whether to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.
>>
>>
>> In favour of Linux:
>>
>> L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.
>>
>> L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to
work at
>> its best there.
>>
>>
>> In favour of Windows:
>>
>> W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from
>> working on the Python services because they don't have a Linux
>> install. (although I guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)
>>
>> W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing
>> heterogeneous OS choices.
>>
>> W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at
have had
>> local dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or
containers
>> on the local host, so we can system test across all services. I
fear
>> heterogeneous server OSes will make significantly harder to do.
They
>> also want me to lead the charge on this sort of test setup, so
this is
>> going to be my problem.
>>
>> Thoughts welcome.
>>
>>  Jonathan
>>

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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Hansel Dunlop]

It should be possible to have your Python app/s in docker containers (which
can be run anywhere via VirtualBox or natively where available) and also
run your windows Dev VMs via VirtualBox. Then this setup can be replicated
across Mac/Linux/Win. That's your Dev environment. Then in production you
have servers running Windows, and servers running Linux with containers on
top. Vagrant will make this easyish on Dev and Ansible for
staging/production. It's not an uncommon setup. All Dev machines need a few
gigs of RAM.

I mean you basically said this in your question. But it's really quite
common. And would suit your Linux skills more. Scripting windows? I hear
it's almost possible now? 😚

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, 18:13 Jonathan Hartley,  wrote:

> Lots of good thoughts so far, thanks to everyone.
>
> Anand, I deeply appreciate your contributions, but what exactly did you
> mean by: "set up Linux containers but make things available on Windows" ?
>
>
> On 01/31/2017 10:26 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:
> > I'd probably start with utilising setting up Linux VMs / containers but
> > make things available on Windows.
> >
> > Keep in mind that .Net (and thus C#, F#) also run on Linux as well, and
> > those VMs / containers tend to be cheaper overall.
> >
> > A
> >
> >
> > On 31/01/17 15:02, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based
> >> infrastructure written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.
> >>
> >> They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering
> >> whether to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.
> >>
> >>
> >> In favour of Linux:
> >>
> >> L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.
> >>
> >> L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to work at
> >> its best there.
> >>
> >>
> >> In favour of Windows:
> >>
> >> W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from
> >> working on the Python services because they don't have a Linux
> >> install. (although I guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)
> >>
> >> W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing
> >> heterogeneous OS choices.
> >>
> >> W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at have had
> >> local dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or containers
> >> on the local host, so we can system test across all services. I fear
> >> heterogeneous server OSes will make significantly harder to do. They
> >> also want me to lead the charge on this sort of test setup, so this is
> >> going to be my problem.
> >>
> >> Thoughts welcome.
> >>
> >>  Jonathan
> >>
>
> --
> Jonathan Hartleytart...@tartley.comhttp://tartley.com
> Made out of meat.   +1 507-513-1101twitter/skype: tartley
>
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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Jonathan Hartley]

Lots of good thoughts so far, thanks to everyone.

Anand, I deeply appreciate your contributions, but what exactly did you 
mean by: "set up Linux containers but make things available on Windows" ?



On 01/31/2017 10:26 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:

I'd probably start with utilising setting up Linux VMs / containers but
make things available on Windows.

Keep in mind that .Net (and thus C#, F#) also run on Linux as well, and
those VMs / containers tend to be cheaper overall.

A


On 31/01/17 15:02, Jonathan Hartley wrote:

Hey all,

I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based
infrastructure written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.

They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering
whether to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.


In favour of Linux:

L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.

L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to work at
its best there.


In favour of Windows:

W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from
working on the Python services because they don't have a Linux
install. (although I guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)

W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing
heterogeneous OS choices.

W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at have had
local dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or containers
on the local host, so we can system test across all services. I fear
heterogeneous server OSes will make significantly harder to do. They
also want me to lead the charge on this sort of test setup, so this is
going to be my problem.

Thoughts welcome.

 Jonathan



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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Walter Prins]

Hi

To add to the other good avice that's been given:

You might want to look into NSSM, the Non Sucking Service Manager, to wrap
your python services into Windows services.
It makes it a doddle on Windows to wrap almost any application as a
service.  We have wrapped some node services and some other non-service
applications that should behave as services (that is to say, start at boot
time and so on) with good results.

NSSM homepage: https://nssm.cc/

Note: I see the project's certificate seems to have expired or
something since I last visited.  (I didn't get the certificate warning
previously when I last visited, so this seems likely just an omission.)

Walter Prins
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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Anand Kumria]

I'd probably start with utilising setting up Linux VMs / containers but
make things available on Windows.

Keep in mind that .Net (and thus C#, F#) also run on Linux as well, and
those VMs / containers tend to be cheaper overall.

A


On 31/01/17 15:02, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based
> infrastructure written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.
>
> They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering
> whether to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.
>
>
> In favour of Linux:
>
> L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.
>
> L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to work at
> its best there.
>
>
> In favour of Windows:
>
> W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from
> working on the Python services because they don't have a Linux
> install. (although I guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)
>
> W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing
> heterogeneous OS choices.
>
> W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at have had
> local dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or containers
> on the local host, so we can system test across all services. I fear
> heterogeneous server OSes will make significantly harder to do. They
> also want me to lead the charge on this sort of test setup, so this is
> going to be my problem.
>
> Thoughts welcome.
>
> Jonathan
>

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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Steve Holden]

Hi Jonathan,

Congrats on the new role.

One thing I'd observe is that in my (outdated and limited) experience,
writing a windows service is much harder than writing a Linux daemon if it
has to acknowledge and interact with the desktop environment - see
https://lostechies.com/keithdahlby/2011/08/13/allowing-a-windows-service-to-interact-with-desktop-without-localsystem/,
for example. If things are easier nowadays, or if the service doesn't need
active management, I guess that won't count.

Back in the noughties I was a Windows user, and would frequently remind
people that Windows was an adequate platform on which to run open source
software. But I haven't used it now for about seven years.

Your point about the complexity of heterogeneous environments is a good
one. You might care to investigate the recent addition to Windows of bash
and friends, but of course if you asked the Windows devs to use it they
would in effect be migrating (a portion of) their skills to Linux. Some
will like the challenge, others will resent it.

I'm not sure I really understand the questions behind your final two bullet
points, so I will defer to those more perspicacious than I.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Tom Wright  wrote:

> If people on the internet agree with you does it help you win arguments
> :), if so you should definitely use linux...
>
> One potentially interesting alternative is the UNIX implementation on
> windows 10. I've no experience, but would be interested in others'
> (including yours).
>
> I would throw two additional potentially important factors:
>
> * Licensing for scaling and development (this is one of those annoying
> human issues where you actually have to talk to people)
>
> * Build-debug-modify cycle on development and deployment. Do this wrong
> and people end up spending all their time reading reddit and feeling
> depressed. VMs can really slow this stuff down.
>
> On 31 Jan 2017 3:28 p.m., "Jonathan Hartley"  wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based infrastructure
>> written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.
>>
>> They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering whether
>> to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.
>>
>>
>> In favour of Linux:
>>
>> L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.
>>
>> L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to work at its
>> best there.
>>
>>
>> In favour of Windows:
>>
>> W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from working
>> on the Python services because they don't have a Linux install. (although I
>> guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)
>>
>> W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing heterogeneous
>> OS choices.
>>
>> W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at have had
>> local dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or containers on the
>> local host, so we can system test across all services. I fear heterogeneous
>> server OSes will make significantly harder to do. They also want me to lead
>> the charge on this sort of test setup, so this is going to be my problem.
>>
>> Thoughts welcome.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Hartleytart...@tartley.comhttp://tartley.com
>> Made out of meat.   +1 507-513-1101twitter/skype: tartley
>>
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Re: [python-uk] Python services within existing .Net infrastructure

[Tom Wright]

If people on the internet agree with you does it help you win arguments :),
if so you should definitely use linux...

One potentially interesting alternative is the UNIX implementation on
windows 10. I've no experience, but would be interested in others'
(including yours).

I would throw two additional potentially important factors:

* Licensing for scaling and development (this is one of those annoying
human issues where you actually have to talk to people)

* Build-debug-modify cycle on development and deployment. Do this wrong and
people end up spending all their time reading reddit and feeling depressed.
VMs can really slow this stuff down.

On 31 Jan 2017 3:28 p.m., "Jonathan Hartley"  wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm joining a small company with an existing service-based infrastructure
> written in C# & F#, on Windows Server on AWS.
>
> They want me to write some new services in Python. I'm wondering whether
> to host these Python services on Linux or on Windows.
>
>
> In favour of Linux:
>
> L1. I'm by far more familiar with Linux.
>
> L2. Linux is Python's natural home. I expect the ecosystem to work at its
> best there.
>
>
> In favour of Windows:
>
> W1. I don't want to put up a barrier to the existing C# devs from working
> on the Python services because they don't have a Linux install. (although I
> guess this is circumvented by them using a VM)
>
> W2. I don't want to cause a devops headache by introducing heterogeneous
> OS choices.
>
> W3. As a specific example of W2, some places I've worked at have had local
> dev environments spin up all our services in VMs or containers on the local
> host, so we can system test across all services. I fear heterogeneous
> server OSes will make significantly harder to do. They also want me to lead
> the charge on this sort of test setup, so this is going to be my problem.
>
> Thoughts welcome.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> Jonathan Hartleytart...@tartley.comhttp://tartley.com
> Made out of meat.   +1 507-513-1101twitter/skype: tartley
>
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