Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-12 Thread Fernando M. Roxo da Motta via QGIS-User 
On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 16:17:38 -0400, DancesWithCars via QGIS-User
 wrote:


> I won't be making the transition.
> Bye
> 
  I am not very active in this list, but learn a lot with it.

  A migration to a web based platform that usally screw the messages
contents...   Nah.

  I will miss the list.


> 
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2024, 14:06 chris hermansen via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
> 
> > Régis and everyone else,
> >
> > My apologies; I try not to top post but my response is more an
> > overall reaction to your announcement rather than a point by point
> > response.
> >
> > I was a member (??) over at opensource.com's Discourse instance
> > until RedHat decided to shut down support for opensource.com, so I
> > have some experience with that Discourse configuration, also plenty
> > of experience with mailing lists.  Also familiarity with the Ubuntu
> > Forums, Stack Exchange etc.
> >
> > In my experience, Discourse "out of the box" doesn't offer any net
> > benefit to its users.
> >
> > It's quite possible that people interested in, and willing to
> > invest time and effort into customizing their usage profile would
> > benefit more from Discourse than from a mailing list.  I have no
> > experience with that.
> >
> > You may be correct when you say that we will attract more new users
> > by offering them Discourse than by maintaining a mailing list.  I
> > guess the question that begs to be asked is, will those new users
> > thereby turn into contributors, or will the biggest Discourse
> > channel be "how do I install QGIS on my new Mac"?
> >
> > I suppose, perhaps wrongly, that most of us on this (and other)
> > mailing lists are here because the list provides a sense of
> > community, an opportunity to pay back by offering a bit of help, an
> > opportunity to stumble on something new and useful from time to
> > time... what else?  I'm pretty sure none of us participate in this
> > list to learn how to participate effectively in lists.  Moreover,
> > we don't really have the tools to "only pay attention to topics X,
> > Y and Z".  So all of us get to see the beginner questions, and the
> > responses, and sometimes we find ourselves in the situation of
> > starting fresh with something that, because of this broad
> > familiarity, is not a total blank.
> >
> > In contrast, in my experience, moving to Discourse, or any other
> > similar forum-type structure, allows or even encourages us to stick
> > to certain topics that we think may be of interest and avoid all
> > others.
> >
> > I would argue that we thereby cheapen and diminish our contribution
> > back to the forum, simply because we miss real opportunities to
> > help while we avoid reading certain topics; and by doing so, we
> > reduce the sense of community we get by belonging to the list.  I
> > would further argue that we run the risk of not learning many new
> > things because by streaming topics into tens or hundreds of
> > specialist channels, we inevitably miss things that might benefit
> > us.
> >
> > Finally, we have the "opportunity" to spend more of our limited time
> > learning about configuring our participation in this mechanism,
> > rather than just participating.  Your example of learning how to
> > treat Discourse like a mailing list by following the Mozilla
> > tutorial addresses this situation precisely - instead of helping a
> > person with their configuration issues, or learning more about how
> > to structure the queries used in QGIS, we are tweaking the
> > Discourse knobs and levers to get the "optimum" experience.
> >
> > I guess you can tell that I'm negative on this concept.  I don't
> > feel that the mailing list is a be-all and end-all.  But I am
> > pretty sure, again based on my experience, that the lovely
> > community we have here on qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org will not be the
> > same collection of good things once migrated to Discourse.  I do
> > hope that I am wrong!
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 7:04 AM Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User <
> > qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
> >  
> >> [Message sent to all QGIS's lists. Sorry for crossposting -
> >> **please reply only in PSC list**  ]
> >> [stuff deleted]
> >>
> >>
> >> Any thought from you is more than welcome, from ranting against
> >> modernity to thanking SAC for their hard work.
> >>  
> >  And thank you, SAC, for your hard work!
> >
> > --
> > Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com
> >
> > C'est ma façon de parler.
> > ___
> > QGIS-User mailing list
> > QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org
> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
> >  








  Roxo

-- 
 Non luctari, ludare ---+ WYSIWYG
Fernando M. Roxo da Motta   | Editor?
Except where explicitly stated I speak on my own behalf.|  VI !!
PU5RXO | PX5Q6048   | I see text,
 Q

Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread David Strip via QGIS-User 


  
  
I've never used Discourse so I'm not in a position to compare it's
usefulness to the existing email format. I can add one more voice
expressing satisfaction with the email approach and how it
encourages readers to view everything rather than narrowing focus to
topics of interest. It also strikes me that we will inevitably lose
some people in the transition because of the friction required to
move focus to a new format, regardless of whether you like or hate
Discourse.
  

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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread Michael Shand via QGIS-User 
Another great mapping list bites the dust.
I used CartoSOC for over 20 years which was great for info and connecting with 
like minded cartographers, after a merger it became a Forum and died a slow 
death.

Sent from Samsung mobile

On 4 Apr 2024 21:29, DancesWithCars via QGIS-User  
wrote:
I won't be making the transition.
Bye


On Thu, Apr 4, 2024, 14:06 chris hermansen via QGIS-User 
mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
Régis and everyone else,

My apologies; I try not to top post but my response is more an overall reaction 
to your announcement rather than a point by point response.

I was a member (??) over at opensource.com's Discourse 
instance until RedHat decided to shut down support for 
opensource.com, so I have some experience with that 
Discourse configuration, also plenty of experience with mailing lists.  Also 
familiarity with the Ubuntu Forums, Stack Exchange etc.

In my experience, Discourse "out of the box" doesn't offer any net benefit to 
its users.

It's quite possible that people interested in, and willing to invest time and 
effort into customizing their usage profile would benefit more from Discourse 
than from a mailing list.  I have no experience with that.

You may be correct when you say that we will attract more new users by offering 
them Discourse than by maintaining a mailing list.  I guess the question that 
begs to be asked is, will those new users thereby turn into contributors, or 
will the biggest Discourse channel be "how do I install QGIS on my new Mac"?

I suppose, perhaps wrongly, that most of us on this (and other) mailing lists 
are here because the list provides a sense of community, an opportunity to pay 
back by offering a bit of help, an opportunity to stumble on something new and 
useful from time to time... what else?  I'm pretty sure none of us participate 
in this list to learn how to participate effectively in lists.  Moreover, we 
don't really have the tools to "only pay attention to topics X, Y and Z".  So 
all of us get to see the beginner questions, and the responses, and sometimes 
we find ourselves in the situation of starting fresh with something that, 
because of this broad familiarity, is not a total blank.

In contrast, in my experience, moving to Discourse, or any other similar 
forum-type structure, allows or even encourages us to stick to certain topics 
that we think may be of interest and avoid all others.

I would argue that we thereby cheapen and diminish our contribution back to the 
forum, simply because we miss real opportunities to help while we avoid reading 
certain topics; and by doing so, we reduce the sense of community we get by 
belonging to the list.  I would further argue that we run the risk of not 
learning many new things because by streaming topics into tens or hundreds of 
specialist channels, we inevitably miss things that might benefit us.

Finally, we have the "opportunity" to spend more of our limited time learning 
about configuring our participation in this mechanism, rather than just 
participating.  Your example of learning how to treat Discourse like a mailing 
list by following the Mozilla tutorial addresses this situation precisely - 
instead of helping a person with their configuration issues, or learning more 
about how to structure the queries used in QGIS, we are tweaking the Discourse 
knobs and levers to get the "optimum" experience.

I guess you can tell that I'm negative on this concept.  I don't feel that the 
mailing list is a be-all and end-all.  But I am pretty sure, again based on my 
experience, that the lovely community we have here on 
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org will not be the 
same collection of good things once migrated to Discourse.  I do hope that I am 
wrong!

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 7:04 AM Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User 
mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:

[Message sent to all QGIS's lists. Sorry for crossposting - **please reply only 
in PSC list**  ]

[stuff deleted]


Any thought from you is more than welcome, from ranting against modernity to 
thanking SAC for their hard work.

 And thank you, SAC, for your hard work!

--

Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread DancesWithCars via QGIS-User 
I won't be making the transition.
Bye


On Thu, Apr 4, 2024, 14:06 chris hermansen via QGIS-User <
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> Régis and everyone else,
>
> My apologies; I try not to top post but my response is more an overall
> reaction to your announcement rather than a point by point response.
>
> I was a member (??) over at opensource.com's Discourse instance until
> RedHat decided to shut down support for opensource.com, so I have some
> experience with that Discourse configuration, also plenty of experience
> with mailing lists.  Also familiarity with the Ubuntu Forums, Stack
> Exchange etc.
>
> In my experience, Discourse "out of the box" doesn't offer any net benefit
> to its users.
>
> It's quite possible that people interested in, and willing to invest time
> and effort into customizing their usage profile would benefit more from
> Discourse than from a mailing list.  I have no experience with that.
>
> You may be correct when you say that we will attract more new users by
> offering them Discourse than by maintaining a mailing list.  I guess the
> question that begs to be asked is, will those new users thereby turn into
> contributors, or will the biggest Discourse channel be "how do I install
> QGIS on my new Mac"?
>
> I suppose, perhaps wrongly, that most of us on this (and other) mailing
> lists are here because the list provides a sense of community, an
> opportunity to pay back by offering a bit of help, an opportunity to
> stumble on something new and useful from time to time... what else?  I'm
> pretty sure none of us participate in this list to learn how to participate
> effectively in lists.  Moreover, we don't really have the tools to "only
> pay attention to topics X, Y and Z".  So all of us get to see the beginner
> questions, and the responses, and sometimes we find ourselves in the
> situation of starting fresh with something that, because of this broad
> familiarity, is not a total blank.
>
> In contrast, in my experience, moving to Discourse, or any other similar
> forum-type structure, allows or even encourages us to stick to certain
> topics that we think may be of interest and avoid all others.
>
> I would argue that we thereby cheapen and diminish our contribution back
> to the forum, simply because we miss real opportunities to help while we
> avoid reading certain topics; and by doing so, we reduce the sense of
> community we get by belonging to the list.  I would further argue that we
> run the risk of not learning many new things because by streaming topics
> into tens or hundreds of specialist channels, we inevitably miss things
> that might benefit us.
>
> Finally, we have the "opportunity" to spend more of our limited time
> learning about configuring our participation in this mechanism, rather than
> just participating.  Your example of learning how to treat Discourse like a
> mailing list by following the Mozilla tutorial addresses this situation
> precisely - instead of helping a person with their configuration issues, or
> learning more about how to structure the queries used in QGIS, we are
> tweaking the Discourse knobs and levers to get the "optimum" experience.
>
> I guess you can tell that I'm negative on this concept.  I don't feel that
> the mailing list is a be-all and end-all.  But I am pretty sure, again
> based on my experience, that the lovely community we have here on
> qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org will not be the same collection of good things
> once migrated to Discourse.  I do hope that I am wrong!
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 7:04 AM Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> [Message sent to all QGIS's lists. Sorry for crossposting - **please
>> reply only in PSC list**  ]
>> [stuff deleted]
>>
>>
>> Any thought from you is more than welcome, from ranting against modernity
>> to thanking SAC for their hard work.
>>
>  And thank you, SAC, for your hard work!
>
> --
> Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com
>
> C'est ma façon de parler.
> ___
> QGIS-User mailing list
> QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread chris hermansen via QGIS-User 
Régis and everyone else,

My apologies; I try not to top post but my response is more an overall
reaction to your announcement rather than a point by point response.

I was a member (??) over at opensource.com's Discourse instance until
RedHat decided to shut down support for opensource.com, so I have some
experience with that Discourse configuration, also plenty of experience
with mailing lists.  Also familiarity with the Ubuntu Forums, Stack
Exchange etc.

In my experience, Discourse "out of the box" doesn't offer any net benefit
to its users.

It's quite possible that people interested in, and willing to invest time
and effort into customizing their usage profile would benefit more from
Discourse than from a mailing list.  I have no experience with that.

You may be correct when you say that we will attract more new users by
offering them Discourse than by maintaining a mailing list.  I guess the
question that begs to be asked is, will those new users thereby turn into
contributors, or will the biggest Discourse channel be "how do I install
QGIS on my new Mac"?

I suppose, perhaps wrongly, that most of us on this (and other) mailing
lists are here because the list provides a sense of community, an
opportunity to pay back by offering a bit of help, an opportunity to
stumble on something new and useful from time to time... what else?  I'm
pretty sure none of us participate in this list to learn how to participate
effectively in lists.  Moreover, we don't really have the tools to "only
pay attention to topics X, Y and Z".  So all of us get to see the beginner
questions, and the responses, and sometimes we find ourselves in the
situation of starting fresh with something that, because of this broad
familiarity, is not a total blank.

In contrast, in my experience, moving to Discourse, or any other similar
forum-type structure, allows or even encourages us to stick to certain
topics that we think may be of interest and avoid all others.

I would argue that we thereby cheapen and diminish our contribution back to
the forum, simply because we miss real opportunities to help while we avoid
reading certain topics; and by doing so, we reduce the sense of community
we get by belonging to the list.  I would further argue that we run the
risk of not learning many new things because by streaming topics into tens
or hundreds of specialist channels, we inevitably miss things that might
benefit us.

Finally, we have the "opportunity" to spend more of our limited time
learning about configuring our participation in this mechanism, rather than
just participating.  Your example of learning how to treat Discourse like a
mailing list by following the Mozilla tutorial addresses this situation
precisely - instead of helping a person with their configuration issues, or
learning more about how to structure the queries used in QGIS, we are
tweaking the Discourse knobs and levers to get the "optimum" experience.

I guess you can tell that I'm negative on this concept.  I don't feel that
the mailing list is a be-all and end-all.  But I am pretty sure, again
based on my experience, that the lovely community we have here on
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org will not be the same collection of good things
once migrated to Discourse.  I do hope that I am wrong!

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 7:04 AM Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User <
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> [Message sent to all QGIS's lists. Sorry for crossposting - **please reply
> only in PSC list**  ]
> [stuff deleted]
>
>
> Any thought from you is more than welcome, from ranting against modernity
> to thanking SAC for their hard work.
>
 And thank you, SAC, for your hard work!

-- 
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread Tony Bazeley via QGIS-User 
Hi Régis,

It seems the "end of life" refers to the Mailman 2, and there's no desire to 
migrate to 
Mailman3, which in my view is a pity as the archives[1] at least look like a 
nice piece of 
work.

I'm currently considering migrating a small list from mailman2 to mailman3 and 
wonder 
if you would mind explaining a little further those "not conclusive" tests.

Can you advise when it's proposed to close the qgis-user list?

And what will happen to the archives which to my mind represent the collective 
work of 
many contributors and a valuable piece of knowledge? 

Thanks
Tony

On Thursday 4 April 2024 6:27:24 PM ACDT Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User wrote:
> Hi Tony,
> 
> we know about mailman3 rewrite. from the tests of SAC and other
> projects, it was not conclusive.
> 
> About keeping both system, this is the best way to fragment a bit more
> our community, which already is dispersed through too many channels.
> This is the problem we want to fix here.   This is a hard requirement in
> this move, ie stay DRY.
> 
> Gnome, Mozilla and Ubuntu are all fighting against the same issue. We
> try to clarify which should be the official channels, and still want to
> offer communication means that are really used. From my perspective, I
> use Discourse mainly by mail, and have the additionnal possibility of
> using the web UI to write markdown , add images and color syntaxed code.
> I woud not see the benefit of having to "also" keep monitoring other
> mailing lists.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 04/04/2024 01:07, Tony Bazeley via QGIS-User wrote:
> > I'm not against new communication channels, but imagine the maximum  >
> > benefit would be obtained by adding a discourse channel while
> keeping > the mailing list channel, and perhaps reviewing use after a
> period of > time. > > And just BTW, Mailman has just completed an
> upgrade to a major new > version so I'd be interested to learn the basis
> of claims for "end of > life" > > On Thursday 4 April 2024 8:53:47 AM
> ACDT Greg Troxel via QGIS-User > wrote: >> What I meant mostly is two
> things: >> >> People like me tend not to be happy about things turning
> into >> forums and are likely to participate less. As an example, >>
> openstreetmap moved from mailinglists to forums and I have not, so >> I
> interract far far less and spend more time on other things. I am >>
> probably somewhat unusual (started doing email in the 70s), and >> here
> probably only strk thinks I"m normal :-) >> >> My perception, perhaps
> off base, is that discourse facilitates >> people showing up, posting a
> question, and getting replies to the >> question, without also getting
> delivered to them everything else >> on the "mailing list". Thus I
> expect a lot more help desk type >> interactions, where new people ask a
> question and don't really >> engage, rather than joining the community.
> Many projects have >> communities of long-term participants who get to
> know each other. >> Partly from on-list, but partly from off-list
> converstations which >> are enabled by getting emails with the other
> person's email >> address. I don't see this happening in a discourse
> world. I'm not >> arguing there are no mechanisms and that people could
> not make it >> happen. I am saying that I expect it to happen much less
> in >> practice. >> >> I don't have any good ideas about the first
> pointl. >> >> The second point could be addressed by allowing web
> signup, but >> allowing posting only if one has email delivery of all
> messages, >> and having the From: address be the person, and not
> breaking DKIM >> signatures. In short, having the email interface be a
> first-class >> non-broken mailinglist, while also having a forum view.
> 
>  >> >> (I've dropped psc because it doesn't allow non-members to send.)
>  >> 
>  >> ___ QGIS-User mailing >>
> 
> list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: >>
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: >>
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > > > > >
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> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user




[1] https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/latest?
count=50&page=1
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User 


Hi Tony,

we know about mailman3 rewrite. from the tests of SAC and other 
projects, it was not conclusive.


About keeping both system, this is the best way to fragment a bit more 
our community, which already is dispersed through too many channels. 
This is the problem we want to fix here.   This is a hard requirement in 
this move, ie stay DRY.


Gnome, Mozilla and Ubuntu are all fighting against the same issue. We 
try to clarify which should be the official channels, and still want to 
offer communication means that are really used. From my perspective, I 
use Discourse mainly by mail, and have the additionnal possibility of 
using the web UI to write markdown , add images and color syntaxed code. 
I woud not see the benefit of having to "also" keep monitoring other 
mailing lists.



Cheers

On 04/04/2024 01:07, Tony Bazeley via QGIS-User wrote:
I'm not against new communication channels, but imagine the maximum  > benefit would be obtained by adding a discourse channel while 
keeping > the mailing list channel, and perhaps reviewing use after a 
period of > time. > > And just BTW, Mailman has just completed an 
upgrade to a major new > version so I'd be interested to learn the basis 
of claims for "end of > life" > > On Thursday 4 April 2024 8:53:47 AM 
ACDT Greg Troxel via QGIS-User > wrote: >> What I meant mostly is two 
things: >> >> People like me tend not to be happy about things turning 
into >> forums and are likely to participate less. As an example, >> 
openstreetmap moved from mailinglists to forums and I have not, so >> I 
interract far far less and spend more time on other things. I am >> 
probably somewhat unusual (started doing email in the 70s), and >> here 
probably only strk thinks I"m normal :-) >> >> My perception, perhaps 
off base, is that discourse facilitates >> people showing up, posting a 
question, and getting replies to the >> question, without also getting 
delivered to them everything else >> on the "mailing list". Thus I 
expect a lot more help desk type >> interactions, where new people ask a 
question and don't really >> engage, rather than joining the community. 
Many projects have >> communities of long-term participants who get to 
know each other. >> Partly from on-list, but partly from off-list 
converstations which >> are enabled by getting emails with the other 
person's email >> address. I don't see this happening in a discourse 
world. I'm not >> arguing there are no mechanisms and that people could 
not make it >> happen. I am saying that I expect it to happen much less 
in >> practice. >> >> I don't have any good ideas about the first 
pointl. >> >> The second point could be addressed by allowing web 
signup, but >> allowing posting only if one has email delivery of all 
messages, >> and having the From: address be the person, and not 
breaking DKIM >> signatures. In short, having the email interface be a 
first-class >> non-broken mailinglist, while also having a forum view. 
>> >> (I've dropped psc because it doesn't allow non-members to send.) 
>> ___ QGIS-User mailing >> 
list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: >> 
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: >> 
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > > > > > 
___ QGIS-User mailing > list 
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-04 Thread Julien Moura (Oslandia) via QGIS-User 

Hi Régis and PSC,

Great news and exciting evolution for QGIS community! Thanks for the 
underlying work along with the OSGeo tech team.


On my side, I think it's a good evolution to make the project more 
reachable for classic end-users and an honest trade-off for long-live 
dev/tech users since Discourse can behave as a a mailing list too.


I hope that will help to reduce QGIS communication channels and look 
forward to see every related event and discussions live on Discourse.


Regards,
Julien

On 03/04/2024 21:14, Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User wrote:

Hi Greg,
Of course you are free to react !
I'm interested in understanding why you feel this would reduce 
engagement.
I've been testing Discourse a lot in the past years. From french 
spaces around open data and numeric commons, to a first test with QGIS 
french user lists.

What I have observed is :
- new users jump in more easily than with our obscure mailing list habits.
- I just don't see any usage difference once I changed my settings 
from the default digest setting to "one mail per interaction"
- it is a lot easier to subscribe to a category than to subscribe in 
mailman to a new mailing list.
- finding topics via search engine is so much more normal. Remember we 
needed Nabble to offer this and it was not an easy experience. And 
Nabble died.
- as a list administror, mailman backoffice interface does not make it 
easy. It has been designed in the early stages of the web. This is so 
hard to understand, read and maintain. And don't try on a phone.


On the downsides, I just had to explore notification settings and 
understand how categories work a bit more than I would have expected. 
But a lot less time than the numerous hours struggling with mailman 
admin interfaces.


So if you have tangible ideas or facts we are really interested.  
Discourse is open source and really full of features, settings or 
plugins to tune it to our needs.


Cheers
Régis

Le mer. 3 avr. 2024, 17:34, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User 
 a écrit :


Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User  writes:

> With this move, we hope that we can counter the current
fragmentation
> and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react.

I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the
Free Software world a long time.  I expect that this will lead to
reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people.  Part of this is that
tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk
feeling that than a community.

I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said
"feel
free to react" :-)
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Jürgen E . Fischer via QGIS-User 
Hi Greg,

On Wed, 03. Apr 2024 at 18:23:47 -0400, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote:
> People like me tend not to be happy about things turning into forums and are
> likely to participate less.  As an example, openstreetmap moved from
> mailinglists to forums and I have not, so I interract far far less and spend
> more time on other things.  I am probably somewhat unusual (started doing
> email in the 70s), and here probably only strk thinks I"m normal :-)

Just for the record: I also don't like the move, I also feel the same pain and
I also think you're normal.

To make it worse the advertised discourse mailing list option apparently
doesn't work well - at least for "normal" people (see
https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3073).


Jürgen

-- 
Jürgen E. Fischer
Dipl.-Inf. (FH)   norBIT GmbH   Tel. +49-4931-918175-31
Software Engineer Rheinstraße 13Fax. +49-4931-918175-50
Geschäftsführer   D-26506 Norden  https://www.norbit.de


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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Greg Troxel via QGIS-User 
Tony Bazeley via QGIS-User  writes:

> I'm not against new communication channels, but imagine the maximum benefit 
> would be obtained by adding a discourse channel while keeping the mailing 
> list 
> channel, and perhaps reviewing use after a period of time.

That's a great point, and I should have been clearer: I am not at all
opposed to new things, especially those targeting adding help channels
for people to ask questions.  But this is billed as removing the mailing
lists.

> And just BTW, Mailman has just completed an upgrade to a major new version so 
> I'd be interested to learn the basis of claims for "end of life" 

A great question.  A quick search turned up no such EOL idea.  The last
maintenance release is just under 6 months ago, which is normal for
reasonably stable software.
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Tony Bazeley via QGIS-User 
I'm not against new communication channels, but imagine the maximum benefit 
would be obtained by adding a discourse channel while keeping the mailing list 
channel, and perhaps reviewing use after a period of time.

And just BTW, Mailman has just completed an upgrade to a major new version so 
I'd be interested to learn the basis of claims for "end of life" 

On Thursday 4 April 2024 8:53:47 AM ACDT Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote:
> What I meant mostly is two things:
> 
> People like me tend not to be happy about things turning into forums
>   and are likely to participate less.  As an example, openstreetmap
>   moved from mailinglists to forums and I have not, so I interract far
>   far less and spend more time on other things.  I am probably somewhat
>   unusual (started doing email in the 70s), and here probably only strk
>   thinks I"m normal :-)
> 
> My perception, perhaps off base, is that discourse facilitates
>   people showing up, posting a question, and getting replies to the
>   question, without also getting delivered to them everything else on
>   the "mailing list".  Thus I expect a lot more help desk type
>   interactions, where new people ask a question and don't really engage,
>   rather than joining the community.
> Many projects have communities of long-term participants who get to
>   know each other.  Partly from on-list, but partly from off-list
>   converstations which are enabled by getting emails with the other
>   person's email address.  I don't see this happening in a discourse
>   world.  I'm not arguing there are no mechanisms and that people could
>   not make it happen.  I am saying that I expect it to happen much less
>   in practice.
> 
> I don't have any good ideas about the first pointl.
> 
> The second point could be addressed by allowing web signup, but allowing
> posting only if one has email delivery of all messages, and having the
> From: address be the person, and not breaking DKIM signatures.   In
> short, having the email interface be a first-class non-broken
> mailinglist, while also having a forum view.
> 
> (I've dropped psc because it doesn't allow non-members to send.)
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Antonio Viscomi via QGIS-User 
Hi Regis,
Discours it seems more useful for we as members of a mailing lists, it have
a modern conception social-like and if the structure of the Qgis Community
will be categorized per arguments (i.e. geoprocessing topics, rasters
topics, editing topics, etc.), I think will be more simple to help and
receive help from other users with respect to the current mailing list (of
which personally read less than 1% of total mail in)

Il mer 3 apr 2024, 21:16 Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User <
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> ha scritto:

> Hi Greg,
> Of course you are free to react !
> I'm interested in understanding why you feel this would reduce engagement.
> I've been testing Discourse a lot in the past years. From french spaces
> around open data and numeric commons, to a first test with QGIS french user
> lists.
> What I have observed is :
> - new users jump in more easily than with our obscure mailing list habits.
> - I just don't see any usage difference once I changed my settings from
> the default digest setting to "one mail per interaction"
> - it is a lot easier to subscribe to a category than to subscribe in
> mailman to a new mailing list.
> - finding topics via search engine is so much more normal. Remember we
> needed Nabble to offer this and it was not an easy experience. And Nabble
> died.
> - as a list administror, mailman backoffice interface does not make it
> easy. It has been designed in the early stages of the web. This is so hard
> to understand, read and maintain. And don't try on a phone.
>
> On the downsides, I just had to explore notification settings and
> understand how categories work a bit more than I would have expected. But a
> lot less time than the numerous hours struggling with mailman admin
> interfaces.
>
> So if you have tangible ideas or facts we are really interested.
> Discourse is open source and really full of features, settings or plugins
> to tune it to our needs.
>
> Cheers
> Régis
>
> Le mer. 3 avr. 2024, 17:34, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User <
> qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> a écrit :
>
>> Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User  writes:
>>
>> > With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation
>> > and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react.
>>
>> I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the
>> Free Software world a long time.  I expect that this will lead to
>> reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people.  Part of this is that
>> tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk
>> feeling that than a community.
>>
>> I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said "feel
>> free to react" :-)
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Greg Troxel via QGIS-User 
What I meant mostly is two things:

People like me tend not to be happy about things turning into forums
  and are likely to participate less.  As an example, openstreetmap
  moved from mailinglists to forums and I have not, so I interract far
  far less and spend more time on other things.  I am probably somewhat
  unusual (started doing email in the 70s), and here probably only strk
  thinks I"m normal :-)

My perception, perhaps off base, is that discourse facilitates
  people showing up, posting a question, and getting replies to the
  question, without also getting delivered to them everything else on
  the "mailing list".  Thus I expect a lot more help desk type
  interactions, where new people ask a question and don't really engage,
  rather than joining the community.
Many projects have communities of long-term participants who get to
  know each other.  Partly from on-list, but partly from off-list
  converstations which are enabled by getting emails with the other
  person's email address.  I don't see this happening in a discourse
  world.  I'm not arguing there are no mechanisms and that people could
  not make it happen.  I am saying that I expect it to happen much less
  in practice.

I don't have any good ideas about the first pointl.

The second point could be addressed by allowing web signup, but allowing
posting only if one has email delivery of all messages, and having the
From: address be the person, and not breaking DKIM signatures.   In
short, having the email interface be a first-class non-broken
mailinglist, while also having a forum view.

(I've dropped psc because it doesn't allow non-members to send.)
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User 
Hi Greg,
Of course you are free to react !
I'm interested in understanding why you feel this would reduce engagement.
I've been testing Discourse a lot in the past years. From french spaces
around open data and numeric commons, to a first test with QGIS french user
lists.
What I have observed is :
- new users jump in more easily than with our obscure mailing list habits.
- I just don't see any usage difference once I changed my settings from the
default digest setting to "one mail per interaction"
- it is a lot easier to subscribe to a category than to subscribe in
mailman to a new mailing list.
- finding topics via search engine is so much more normal. Remember we
needed Nabble to offer this and it was not an easy experience. And Nabble
died.
- as a list administror, mailman backoffice interface does not make it
easy. It has been designed in the early stages of the web. This is so hard
to understand, read and maintain. And don't try on a phone.

On the downsides, I just had to explore notification settings and
understand how categories work a bit more than I would have expected. But a
lot less time than the numerous hours struggling with mailman admin
interfaces.

So if you have tangible ideas or facts we are really interested.  Discourse
is open source and really full of features, settings or plugins to tune it
to our needs.

Cheers
Régis

Le mer. 3 avr. 2024, 17:34, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User <
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> a écrit :

> Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User  writes:
>
> > With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation
> > and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react.
>
> I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the
> Free Software world a long time.  I expect that this will lead to
> reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people.  Part of this is that
> tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk
> feeling that than a community.
>
> I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said "feel
> free to react" :-)
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Re: [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse

2024-04-03 Thread Greg Troxel via QGIS-User 
Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User  writes:

> With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation
> and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react.

I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the
Free Software world a long time.  I expect that this will lead to
reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people.  Part of this is that
tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk
feeling that than a community.

I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said "feel
free to react" :-)
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