Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 12:54:07 +0100 schreef Urs Koenig (QL) :


(...)

Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is  
minimised

as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by  


to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!


Urs,
I repeated your process to the letter with SMSQ/m (8217) and QPC2  
(4.02/3.22) and an unchanged copy QLE.win from the Nov.2015 update. Both  
did NOT freeze on access to WIN1_.
I selected and Viewed the Boot file from Files using only the keyboard. No  
problems.


My laptop is already in its seventh year with a conventional SATA HDD  
running W$7.

Yours I suspect, is running W$10 from an SSD. Could that be an issue?


(...)
I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze case.
Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and  
4) and you never get the freeze.


My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content  
of the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2  
Files is positioned in above mentioned scenario.



So you suggest to write something to WIN1_ before opening Files?
That's something my normal Boot already does. A list of actually loaded  
extensions is generated and saved before I have time to do anything useful.
That is the beauty / problem with SMSQ/E, everybody has a completely  
different Boot.



Enjoy the sunny Sunday!


At the moment it's quite gray here.
That's why I have a sunny picture of the Scottish Highlands as wallpaper.

QLE forever!
Bob

--
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Urs Koenig (QL) wrote:
> Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
> and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
> catch the QL/E Freeze case.
> Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
> v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
> freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
> scenario:
> 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
> 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
> 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
> as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
> displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
> 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
> press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
> 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
> to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
> 6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
will crash later on without being at fault itself.

Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure
if I can find the time to do so.

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[derek]

Hi,

Is it possible the problem lies with Qpac2.

I have been ytrying to disassemble Qpac2 to try and improve Files. But it is 
quite hard to reverse engineer something like Qpac2.

Since the binary version of Qpac2 is download able,  is it possible for the 
source code to be related under some sort of licence.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Wolfgang Lenerz  
Date: 20/03/2016  16:42  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing 

Hi,

I downloaded QLE from your website.

used SMSQmulator 8 from that distribution, with the SMSQE that came with it.

I followed all of your steps.

No Problem here.

> Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
> v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
> freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
> scenario:
> 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
check
> 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
check
> 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
> as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
> displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
no, it's ALT+ >
> 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
> press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
check
> 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
> to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
check
> 6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

Nope

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Marcel Kilgus wrote:
> > Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault
> > in the program I am updating.
> > No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
> > So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was
> > using Files (?).
> 
> There are about a billion ways to crash SMSQ/E, so I wouldn't count on
your
> problems being the same. Personally I never had Files crash on me and even
> then it's more likely that the device driver is at fault, but if somebody
can
> reproduce it I can have a look.

As it may be known I'm maintaining QL/E - a pre-configured and ready to go
QL environment (applications, desktops, games, tools, utilities) using the
latest versions of the virtual QL machines (aka emulators) QPC2 and
SMSQmulator and the Operating System SMSQ/E - since 2002. Since 2014 QL/E is
part of THE DISTRIBUTION. Core of QL/E is a "QXL.WIN" file named QLE.win (a
virtual WINchester hard-drives in QXL format). Last public release is v3.11
from Nov 2nd 2015. This version is fine-tuned for use with QPC2, SMSQmulator
and QXL. Download link:
http://www.sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE

For a couple of months now (the winter) I was busy adapting QL/E for other
QL compatible platforms running under QDOS/Minerva, such as systems which
include the emulators Q-emuLator, uQLx (Raspberry Pi) plus also real
hardware like MIST (QL core with QL-SD support) and the original Sinclair QL
with QL-SD. I'm almost ready with this and shall release QL/E v3.13 in the
coming weeks if not days.

While testing QL/E on various systems and with various scenarios and use
cases I experienced several FREEZEs of the OS (the QL side, not the host
when running the QL as an emulation). After such freezes the only
possibility to bring the QL/E system back to life was to "power it off" and
restart it. In terms of QPC2 a restart was only successful after a remaining
but invisible QPC2 task has been terminated using the Windows Task manager.

At around the 2016 ZX-TEAM meeting  which took place last weekend in Germany
I experienced multiple freezes of QL/E. OK, I was QLing many many hours
recently. The more hours you run QL(/E) environments the greater is the
chance you experience something. The good thing was that I got the
impression that there's a common pattern to the freezes. I got the
impression that it always was when QPAC2 Files was used.

Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
catch the QL/E Freeze case.
Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

What I did to isolate the problem relies on QPAC2 or at least is caused by
QPAC2 is:
- Running QL/E with SMSQmulator does also freeze. > It's not a QPC2 problem.
- Running QL/E with other version of SMSQ/E does also freeze. > If it's a
SMSQ/E problem then it's there for some time already.
- Executing DRVCHK and DRVLINK does not find anything wrong with the
QLE.win.
- Copying the entire content of the QLE.win to a freshly formatted QLE.win
and the running QL/E. with this does also freeze. > It's not a problem of
the content/structure of the "QXL.WIN" file
- Using the BOOT file of previous versions of QL/E does not help; such a
modified system does also freeze.
- After inspecting and comparing various QLE.wins (some which have been used
and new files have been created or files have been deleted) I found out that
some of those do not freeze. I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze
case. Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and
4) and you never get the freeze.

My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content of
the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2 Files
is positioned in above mentioned scenario.

Enjoy the sunny Sunday!

QL forever!
Urs

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Graeme Gregory]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2016, at 10:59 AM, Bob Spelten wrote:
> Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart :
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?
> >
> W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with.
> Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the  
> list is produced.
> Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows.
> 
Thats not a great mystery, the virus checker is hooked into the open
file action!

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart :


Hi,

This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?


W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with.
Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the  
list is produced.

Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows.

I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in  
the mid 1990s


That seems a remarkable record. Seems impossible when developing programs,  
so mostly when it happens to me, I can blame my code.


I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked  
out any WIN drives.


I have a fresh Linux machine set up and QPC2 seems even to be faster  
there. But so far it's only been a quick test. Migrating is not something  
I want to do in the middle of a project and it's not so simple when I have  
direct access to most of my data on W$ from QPC2.


Bob

--
The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Derek Stewart]

Hi,

This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?

I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in 
the mid 1990s


I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked 
out any WIN drives.



Regards,

Derek

On 19/03/16 03:57, Timothy Swenson wrote:

I agree with Wolfgang in that there probably was an outstanding file
lock on the .WIN file.  The file lock would keep other programs from
writing to the .WIN file, but it would allow programs to read from it.
This is why you could copy it and why SMSQmulator said it was read-only.

The reboot cleared the lock and all was well.  The cause of the crash
might be difficult to determine.  Windows is not easy to troubleshoot.
There is no truss or par trace capability built into the OS (at least
not that I am aware of), so you can't look inside a process to see what
is happening.

I remember the old bit:  "The software said to install Windows 95 or
better, so I installed Linux."

Tim Swenson
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[John Alexander]

Removal of high pin count through hole devices can be done with the proper kit 
no real problem. no doubt many of the repair techs here are doing it 
regularly.How ever it's not for the feint hearted or those who havent got the 
kit and practiced before as such it makes for a PITA job.
John A
  From: derek 
 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
 Sent: Friday, 11 March 2016, 23:22
 Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems
   
Hi,

I would be careful desoldering a PLCC chip, the D  Q60 was soldered correctly 
under the correct soldering temperature. 

I have repaired some Qbranch Q40 boards, which had issues with the over heating 
of the soldering, resulting in detachment of the through hole plating.




Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Thierry Godefroy  
Date: 11/03/2016  23:03  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems 

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:17:52 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:

> .../...
> > No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
> > the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
> > size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
> > socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...
> 
> I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
> prohibitively expensive and hard to get.

Well, the mod could also involve unsoldering the PLCC (correct me if
I'm wrong but IRC, it's a through-holes one) and replacing it with
pinheads, for example, that would plug into the add-on board.

> > A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
> > best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
> > some more its feasability...
> 
> Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems

These are extremely *minor* and *easy* changes (and SMSQ/E can already
cope with 800x600 screens)...

> and several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
> writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.

Frankly, such old pieces of software are probably best ran from emulators
if they can't cope with variable size/address display... They would also
fail to run on a QXL in (S)VGA mode or on an Aurora/SGC system too. I won't
call this an issue and I think this kind of "incompatibility" should not
limit and forbid us to get a better Q60 display...

> .../...
> > However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
> > piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
> > ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...
> 
> It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
> the ROM socket area.

In this case, I think it's still worth a solution...

> Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on.

Not bad at all.

> Features
>
> - Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
> - 32 MB SDRAM
> - PS/2 keyboard and mouse
> - Two fullsize SD card interfaces
> - SER
> - Ethernet
> - Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)

:-D

> - Stereo sound
> - Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
> - 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
> - Single 5V power supply
> 
> I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:
> 
> http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10
> 
> Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
> for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
> issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.

Sounds and looks good... The small size would make it an ideal "portable"
QL...

Thierry.
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